Brokeback mountain...

[waltappel 1]

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Continental has 139.00 fares to San Francisco!

In my fantasy world, gay guys would be *everywhere*. Tell ya' what. If my fantasy ever comes true, I'll give you a free pass. We can both share the ladies of the world.

Walt

[TrophyHusband 0]

when i was a single man, i thought the same thing. more gay men equals less competition.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[likearock 1]

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In a gay world, straight people would be treated with respect.

That is merely a speculative remark on your behalf. You don't know how straight people would be treated in a gay world so you cannot make that remark in good faith.

How about this instead: In the gay world, straight people are treated with respect. That's quite evident to anyone who spends any time with gay people. And it would seem to justify a belief in the other, admittedly speculative, remark.

[Keith 0]

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How about this instead: In the gay world, straight people are treated with respect. That's quite evident to anyone who spends any time with gay people. And it would seem to justify a belief in the other, admittedly speculative, remark.

Well said.

Keith

Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville

[sundevil777 93]

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How about this instead: In the gay world, straight people are treated with respect. That's quite evident to anyone who spends any time with gay people. And it would seem to justify a belief in the other, admittedly speculative, remark.

I think not.

Unfortunately, history has shown that the majority tends to be bigoted towards many minorities.

It is a very regrettable flaw in human nature that this happens. Only in recent history have humans been able to start overcoming this flaw.

However, you assert that gays would not be subject to this flaw.

I think not.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Keith 0]

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How about this instead: In the gay world, straight people are treated with respect. That's quite evident to anyone who spends any time with gay people. And it would seem to justify a belief in the other, admittedly speculative, remark.

I think not.

Unfortunately, history has shown that the majority tends to be bigoted towards many minorities.

It is a very regrettable flaw in human nature that this happens. Only in recent history have humans been able to start overcoming this flaw.

However, you assert that gays would not be subject to this flaw.

I think not.

Straight people are treated with respect in the gay community whether you choose to believe it or not.

Keith

Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville

[billvon 2,400]

>For instance, if I turn away when I see a gay couple kiss while watching a
>TV show, and I am watching it with a guy that I don't know to be gay, I
>think it likely that the gay man will consider that to be bigotry/hatred all by itself.

Why? None of the gay people I know would take it that way (unless, of course, you followed it up with "fucking homos on public TV!" or something.) I know people who turn away when a hot and heavy hetero scene comes on; no one thinks they are being prudes, or are bigots.

>Unfortunately, many gays want to be more than just out of the closet,
>they want to be out in the street waving their arms, and then are surprised
>when they are not welcomed by the public with open arms.

Most gays I know just want the same rights as anyone else, and want to live their lives undisturbed. If that's "out in the street waving their arms" - so be it. I'd be out there protesting too if they didn't allow Irish/Italian men to marry US women.

[billvon 2,400]

>However, you assert that gays would not be subject to this flaw.

Gays currently ARE NOT subject to this flaw - the great majority treat people with respect. So unless you have other evidence, your belief that the situation would change with larger numbers is pure speculation.

[likearock 1]

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How about this instead: In the gay world, straight people are treated with respect. That's quite evident to anyone who spends any time with gay people. And it would seem to justify a belief in the other, admittedly speculative, remark.

I think not.

Unfortunately, history has shown that the majority tends to be bigoted towards many minorities.

It is a very regrettable flaw in human nature that this happens. Only in recent history have humans been able to start overcoming this flaw.

However, you assert that gays would not be subject to this flaw.

I think not.

That's a very cynical point of view. I don't share it.

However, I will give you this. If large number of gays were suddenly subject to a religion in which all straight people were condemned as sinners for simply being straight then, in that case, I'd agree with you. Fortunately, no such religion exists as far as I know.

[skymedic 0]

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John Wayne and Randolph Scott must be turning over in their graves in disgust.


Who could blame them?

Wow...what to say to that. I once had great respect for you. Now that just is not the case anymore. By the way Randolph Scott was a gay guy...but believe what you want about your macho stereotypical super heroes.

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[flyhi 24]

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Straight people are treated with respect in the gay community whether you choose to believe it or not.

Recently started working in a job where, from time to time, I get tips from the customers. My best tippers: gay guys. Very enthusiastic and giving. I would rather take gay guys all day instead of:

Religious people (In town for a church convention. No tips.)
Union Officials (Different convention. Same result.)
People from Pacific rim nations (Tipping not part of their culture.)
People from Michigan (No idea why, but have never gotten a tip from someone from MI. My wife is from MI and she said it would be like that.)
College professors. (More than willing to tell you they are a college instructor, but all have refused to participate in my voluntary grant program.)

I have never in my job been treated with anything but respect by any gay clientel. Even had one couple apply the greatest pressure in the world (peer pressure) to the other customers on my behalf. I wish I had more of them. That second rig would be that much closer.

Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

[kelpdiver 2]

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How about this instead: In the gay world, straight people are treated with respect. That's quite evident to anyone who spends any time with gay people. And it would seem to justify a belief in the other, admittedly speculative, remark.

There has been a small level of resentment in the Castro over the past decade as a lot of straight people and couples bought into the neighborhood. Not at a level that would discount your statement, but does put question on the notion of how the gays would be if they had always been the dominant population.

OTOH, without straights, there would be no young hot gays coming along, so in a world that was only 10% straight, I think they'd would have to have some appreciation for breeders, at least until technology had come along to allow for immaculate conceptions.

[Guest]

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John Wayne and Randolph Scott must be turning over in their graves in disgust.

Who could blame them?

Bill Cole

In a gay world, straight people would be treated with respect.

Oh, so that's why we're referred to as "Breeders". I always wondered. Thanks for pointing that out.

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Keith 0]

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John Wayne and Randolph Scott must be turning over in their graves in disgust.

Who could blame them?

Bill Cole

In a gay world, straight people would be treated with respect.

Oh, so that's why we're referred to as "Breeders". I always wondered. Thanks for pointing that out.

mh

'Breeders' is only a derogatory comment if you take it that way. We also refer to ourselves as non-breeders. Are we degrading ourselves too?

Keith

Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville

[RhondaLea 3]

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I think the only truth is that it's never good to be in the minority anywhere you happen to be.

This remark gives me a migrain headache. How in the world can you make such a remark? Minorities have, and have had the market cornered on jobs, loans, want me to go on? It is definitely an advantage to be a minority, and a female on top of that. My wife is an HR manager at a large insurance agency, some of the stories she's told me have made me sick. If you go in for an interview for a job and your a minority, you definitely have the advantage over the majority candidate with the same credentials strictly because they'll scream descrimination if they don't get the assignment. RL, do you dissagree with this?

Not as you've presented it as to hiring in large corporations, if one is a member of a protected class. And I wasn't aware that sexual preference is a protected class. Am I mistaken?

As it applies to how people are treated afterward, I disagree. It's all well and good to have a job, but it's not much fun if you're treated as a pariah by your co-workers.

As it applies to how people are hired in smaller businesses that do not have the same regulatory constraints as large corporations, I disagree. I live in a town where a lot of old prejudices are still perfectly acceptable to the large majority of the population, and most of the businesses are small.

There are a lot of ways around the current laws, especially if one is not running a large corporation.

And in terms of general overall discrimination, well, no one has ever really figured out how to legislate against that.

I don't know much about the gay community except to the extent that I grew up near one of the early gay communities. I can't state unequivocally that if straights were in a minority as to the overall population that gays would treat them respectfully, but as to that particular community, I do know that it is true.

There's no way, however, to know how things would be if gays were the in the majority overall.

But my point was not any of this. My point was that you don't hear heterosexuals "crowing" over straight movies because up until recently, all mainstream movies have been straight movies. And it isn't whining to recognize that by being different, one will go through life subject to a whole host of roadblocks not experienced by those who are considered "normal."

As a totally gratuitous aside, and just so you understand where I'm coming from with all of this, my own opinion as to sexuality is that sharply drawn lines in the sand are social constructs.

There is no doubt that our sexual preferences are biologically determined from birth, and my own wiring causes me to be attracted to men first and foremost. But for all of that, if you put me in a room with a guy I don't like and a woman I do and said, "Pick," I'd pick the woman every time, no question.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Shotgun 1]

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In my experience, MANY straight people, male and female, find it repulsive to even watch men kissing. Even women that enjoy watch all sorts of porn, including lesbian porn, are absolutely grossed out just by men kissing, such as shown on HBO's Six Feet Under

I think this is very significant because gays do not appreciate that as much as most straight people reject prejudice against them, gays will continue to face seeming bigotry/hatred in part, I believe, because a normal display of affection is simply repulsive.

Sorry, it is a double standard and not justifiable, but it is a fact. It doesn't mean that they are homophobes (afraid) or bigots (hate), it is just a reaction that may change over a long time.

Ok, I'm sure you are correct that there are people repulsed by watching men kissing (myself and most everyone I know _not_ included), but I'm not sure what your point is(?) People are repulsed by all sorts of strange things. Perhaps anyone who is repulsed by watching men kissing should avoid watching movies/tv shows that are obviously going to show such things, and avoid hanging out in gay bars as well. But as far as gay guys being affectionate with each other in public, well they (should) have the same right to do that that heterosexuals have, so if that is repulsive to you then you can always look away.

Though I do think that finding something like two men kissing (which is realistically harmless to you) to be "repulsive" would be classified as a phobia, and therefore to say that someone who is "repulsed" by two men kissing is homophobic would be technically correct. ("Repulsed" is a pretty strong word, but that was the word that you chose to use. If you had said "I would prefer not to watch," or something more along those lines, then I wouldn't think of it as a phobia.) And most phobias can be overcome by gradual exposure to the particular aversion, so watching shows such as "Six Feet Under" could probably help someone get over that phobia (if they wanted to).

[Guest]

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John Wayne and Randolph Scott must be turning over in their graves in disgust.

Who could blame them?

Bill Cole

In a gay world, straight people would be treated with respect.

Oh, so that's why we're referred to as "Breeders". I always wondered. Thanks for pointing that out.

mh

'Breeders' is only a derogatory comment if you take it that way. We also refer to ourselves as non-breeders. Are we degrading ourselves too?

So by your logic, the term "Nigger" is only derogatory if blacks take it that way, right?

mh

.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[RhondaLea 3]

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In a gay world, straight people would be treated with respect.

Oh, so that's why we're referred to as "Breeders". I always wondered. Thanks for pointing that out.

mh

'Breeders' is only a derogatory comment if you take it that way. We also refer to ourselves as non-breeders. Are we degrading ourselves too?

So by your logic, the term "Nigger" is only derogatory if blacks take it that way, right?

"Nigger" for many years was used in a derogatory way. In the present day, it is not derogatory in some contexts, and it remains derogatory in others.

I cannot see how "breeders" is any more derogatory than "straights," and neither word has an oppressive and offensive history to back up the analogy you're trying to make.

What's the real argument here? It's not about a mere word, that's for sure.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[sundevil777 93]

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Straight people are treated with respect in the gay community whether you choose to believe it or not.

You completely missed the point.

In a gay world, straights would be just as likely to be discriminated against if the gays had not experienced it themselves (If they had always been the majority). That is the 'tables turned' hypothetical.

It is not that hard a thing to understand. Didnt' anyone see that movie with Travolta where whites were the minority?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[RhondaLea 3]

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Straight people are treated with respect in the gay community whether you choose to believe it or not.

You completely missed the point.

In a gay world, straights would be just as likely to be discriminated against if the gays had not experienced it themselves (If they had always been the majority). That is the 'tables turned' hypothetical.

It is not that hard a thing to understand. Didnt' anyone see that movie with Travolta where whites were the minority?

Can we just agree that there are two different issues here? The first is that, currently, straights are treated far more respectfully by gays (as to sexual preference) than vice versa. The second is that minorities, by definition, are always discriminated against to varying degrees. (Usually dependent on the amount of fear they engender in the majority.)

Two separate issues. And there is no way to know how things would be if the situation were reversed, except to the extent that those who do not learn the lessons of history...yada, yada, yada.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[airtwardo 6]

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And I wasn't aware that sexual preference is a protected class. Am I mistaken?

As it applies to how people are treated afterward, I disagree. It's all well and good to have a job, but it's not much fun if you're treated as a pariah by your co-workers.

***

It may not be a 'protected class' per say, but sexual discrimination laws (at least in California) are broad enough to cover 'some' infractions...real or perceived.

...A couple quick stories on how it's a double edged sword.
When I first moved to Ca. in the 80's, I worked next to a gay guy in a manufacturing plant on 3rd shift.

He and I became good friends quickly because he was the only other person there that could string more than 3 words together at a time.

It was interesting because he would answer all the 'country boy' questions I had about homosexuality, and although I wasn't 'prejudice' anyway, I became more sympathetic by understanding what he had to deal with just trying to be himself.

If anything it was a shock to him that I would so openly interact with him in that predominantly neophyte setting, as it also set ME up to ridicule and discrimination.

It was a horribly negative environment, but it didn't matter to me as I was only working there until I could find employment in my field...

it was actually kinda fun...I could fuck with the asshole people both in management and employees because I knew California law better than they did in regard to things they were doing and saying 'in the work place'

But if I 'needed' that job, and had to 'put up with' the shit going on with no end in sight...
I shutter to think what that would do to a person.

On the other hand...
I lived at the beach with another "GUY" for 10 years...

A great friend, fellow jumper, US Team member...all around nice guy...we had a lot in common and did a lot of things together. His dad was 'Mr. Bubble' among several other businesses, his brother a northern state's Governor, his brother in law a state senator...we traveled in a 'good' circle...

Being a couple of sluts...(wild n' crazy guyzzz)
we traveled sans girlfriends, and always tried to pull from the local talent where ever in the world we went.

We found it almost comical how two men in their late 30's, obviously with money, traveling together were 'treated'...

In THAT setting, most everyone goes to the extreme to insure there is in no way any perceived discrimination... of any kind, to the extent of treating us considerably BETTER than 'normal couples' around us!

I'm as straight as they come... and I could in no way begin to understand what being gay is really like day to day...but my experience tells me that it's not easy and not fair being outside societies norm in that way....not always NEGATIVE...just not fair.

As long as there is any kind of 'minority' those within it will continue to receive both ridicule AND praise for just being themselves...that won't change.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Trent 0]

For the people that say straights aren't subject to discrimination by gays, as a couple of people here have.... what planet do you live on? The very existence of a commonly understood slang term like "breeder" is evidence. Want first hand experience? I walked into a gay bar with a lesbian friend from college, and was pretty much harassed the whole time. Some of the bars tried to keep straight people out at the door. Granted, this was just a few places... but in the bastion of open-mindedness, NYC and the "most open minded" community... it DID and probably DOES happen. Most groups shun those not conforming to their behavior pattern, gays are not immune.

As far as the movie's concerned... if the entire film is as corny as the previews... it'll win oscars for sure. The very facts that it is a movie about a "taboo subject", that some will appreciate it because it is "about" their lifestyle and others will love it to make themselves feel openminded/PC/progressive guarantees awards... even if it really sucks.

You have to admit that the "jacket sniffing" in the previews is fucking stupid.

Oh, hello again!

[Guest]

It's about tolerance and the lack thereof.

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[RhondaLea 3]

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It's about tolerance and the lack thereof.

You're going to have to do better than that.

I don't object to being called a breeder. I am a breeder, literally.

The use of a mere word does not signify intolerance, unless the word is used in a pejorative sense. I do not detect that if Keith or Narcimund calls me a breeder, it means that they think ill of me for preferring men. (I almost wrote "for being straight" but given what I wrote earlier, I can't really class myself that way, even if for all practical purposes, I am.) Perhaps one or both of them would weigh in on this, in case I've misread everything they've written in the time I've been reading their posts.

Y'know, I really do wonder what kind of sexual practices we'd be seeing if we reared children in an environment totally free of sexual bias. I have no doubt that most people would prefer one sex to another, but I really don't believe that most people would rigidly limit themselves to one sex or the other.

Maybe that makes me weird. Ya think?

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[jakee 1,255]

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Y'know, I really do wonder what kind of sexual practices we'd be seeing if we reared children in an environment totally free of sexual bias. I have no doubt that most people would prefer one sex to another, but I really don't believe that most people would rigidly limit themselves to one sex or the other.

If you go back far enough in history those sorts of societies have existed, in simply sexual terms at least rather than recognized unions.

Try the ancient Greek symposium for starters.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?