Brokeback mountain...

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... but I really don't believe that most people would rigidly limit themselves to one sex or the other.

Probably not, if Kinsey's findings were correct. Using the Kinsey Scale, he found that few people were a pure 0 or 6.

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Maybe that makes me weird. Ya think?

Yeah, you probably are weird, but that's not a bad thing.

[narcimund 0]

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That was genius in its simplicity.

Thanks. There was something in it I think. Now I'll ruin it by getting wordy.

Some people pointed out (in opposition to my one-liner) that there are examples of gay people not respecting straight people in the current world. Those examples are insignificantly mild ("Breeder" isn't exactly a term of respect but neither is it hateful. It's not-quite but nearly neutral. The only time I've heard "breeder" used angrily was in movies.) I'm sure there are isolated cases that show much stronger disrespect, although so rare and contextually dependent as to be just silly.

The question arose of whether or not my hypothetical gay world's population would bring with them the memory of having been harassed in the real-world. Who knows? It's a critical question but it gets so rarified as to be silly again. How many angels can dance...?

One fellow joked that breeders would get great respect. I think he meant that if there were few breeders the human race would depend on them for continuity. Of course he might be right.

As long as we're bringing up movies, I saw "Nearly Normal" recently. It's a campy, low-budget comedy in a topsy-turvy gay world where closeted straight people suffer harassment. It's a gay person's fantasy romp and shouldn't be taken as anything else, but I suspect some here might call it evidence (or even proof) that straights would suffer in a gay world.

Just the act of imagining it for a few seconds might be the closest some homophobes will ever come to understanding.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[Guest]

You may not object, but I do. I find the term "Breeder" to be exceedingly offensive and intolerant.

I think a point has been effectively made in this thread that bias is something that all people have, and to portray a tiny (but noisy and well-heeled) minority as being somehow better than everybody else is bogus, and annoying. A lot of this recent homomania goes beyond simple tolerance to near diefication.

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[RhondaLea 3]

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Y'know, I really do wonder what kind of sexual practices we'd be seeing if we reared children in an environment totally free of sexual bias. I have no doubt that most people would prefer one sex to another, but I really don't believe that most people would rigidly limit themselves to one sex or the other.

If you go back far enough in history those sorts of societies have existed, in simply sexual terms at least rather than recognized unions.

Try the ancient Greek symposium for starters.

I was a philosophy major. We touched on it once or twice.
When I said "totally free of sexual bias," I meant a situation that is neither male nor female dominant. Women got short shrift in Greece, and I'm not interested in a society in which males and females are on different planes. (There have been societies (not many, but a few) where women were the top dogs, but female dominance is no better than male dominance--we both have something to offer, and we all lose when that fact is not taken into account.)

I want to know what happens if we send the message that any consensual touching is fine and that no one group is better than another.

It's a very interesting idea to me. At the very least, I think that more people would stay healthier longer.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[narcimund 0]

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I do not detect that if Keith or Narcimund calls me a breeder, it means that they think ill of me for preferring men.

Of course not.

As I wrote above (but it deserves repeating) in the real gay world, "breeder" is generally NOT an insult or at most (in odd rare cases) it's a mild one. Can people understand that? Some slang words for a group don't imply hate and revulsion.

I'll say that again cause it's not going to sink into some people's brains: SOME SLANG WORDS DON'T IMPLY HATE AND REVULSION.

Gay people have endured enough horror that I'm surprised we DON'T (generally) hate and revile straight people. I find that fascinating.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[narcimund 0]

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I think a point has been effectively made in this thread that bias is something that all people have, and to portray a tiny (but noisy and well-heeled) minority as being somehow better than everybody else is bogus, and annoying.

Those who ASSUME gay people would turn on them in a gay world make me understand how their minds work just a little more than I did before.

There's a pervasive assumption of conflict in their minds. They simply can't imagine a world where the majority doesn't torment everyone else.

How revealing. How sad.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[RhondaLea 3]

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You may not object, but I do. I find the term "Breeder" to be exceedingly offensive and intolerant.

I think a point has been effectively made in this thread that bias is something that all people have, and to portray a tiny (but noisy and well-heeled) minority as being somehow better than everybody else is bogus, and annoying. A lot of this recent homomania goes beyond simple tolerance to near diefication.

The pendulum always swings to the opposite side before things level out. How can you not know that?

I've never gotten the feeling that I was looked down on by gays, but I suppose I could be wrong.

I guess I owe beer, though, because this is the first time I've ever seen the word "homomania."

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[likearock 1]

Good story. Thanks for that.

[Guest]

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I do not detect that if Keith or Narcimund calls me a breeder, it means that they think ill of me for preferring men.

Of course not.

As I wrote above (but it deserves repeating) in the real gay world, "breeder" is generally NOT an insult or at most (in odd rare cases) it's a mild one. Can people understand that? Some slang words for a group don't imply hate and revulsion.

I'll say that again cause it's not going to sink into some people's brains: SOME SLANG WORDS DON'T IMPLY HATE AND REVULSION.

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BULLSHIT

Gay people have endured enough horror that I'm surprised we DON'T (generally) hate and revile straight people. I find that fascinating.

Cry me a river.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

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You may not object, but I do. I find the term "Breeder" to be exceedingly offensive and intolerant.

I can see that it would be offensive to some people, but I don't think the term "nigger" was a good comparison, because I think "nigger" is probably more offensive to a larger percentage of the people that it would be applied to. Perhaps the term "girl" when referring to a woman would be a more apt comparison, since there are many women who would be offended by this, but not necessarily the majority.

[airtwardo 6]

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The question arose of whether or not my hypothetical gay world's population would bring with them the memory of having been harassed in the real-world. Who knows? It's a critical question but it gets so rarefied as to be silly again. How many angels can dance...?

***

A lot of variables would effect the outcome in that world.
I have to wonder, would the gay majority truly be respectful to the straight minority given the power that numbers bring?

If there were no subtle under current of possible violence etc. in the world we actually live in...would gays be as 'respectful' to straights are they seem to be?

You would know better than I would, is there even a slight fear deep down that you need to be on your toes and watch the P's & Q's...that the 'breeders' might riot and beat you down?

It does happen...I remember when the young gay man was tied to a fence and beaten, left to die...

I was disgusted....but not surprised.

Prudence dictates not sticking a hot fork into a sleeping lions balls.

In your hypothetical world...Gays being the sleeping lion, would the 'respect' go out the window because of overwhelming 'power' negating is necessity?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[narcimund 0]

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I'll say that again cause it's not going to sink into some people's brains: SOME SLANG WORDS DON'T IMPLY HATE AND REVULSION.

BULLSHIT

This teaches us more about how your mind works than it does about the word "breeder".

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[Guest]

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I guess I owe beer, though, because this is the first time I've ever seen the word "homomania."

rl

I coined it.

It's as bogus as "homophobia" (which means fear of mankind, not of gays), so I thought I'd take it to the next logical step.

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

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[Guest]

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I think a point has been effectively made in this thread that bias is something that all people have, and to portray a tiny (but noisy and well-heeled) minority as being somehow better than everybody else is bogus, and annoying.

Those who ASSUME gay people would turn on them in a gay world make me understand how their minds work just a little more than I did before.

There's a pervasive assumption of conflict in their minds. They simply can't imagine a world where the majority doesn't torment everyone else.

How revealing. How sad.

It's not sad, it's simply human nature.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[RhondaLea 3]

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I'll say that again cause it's not going to sink into some people's brains: SOME SLANG WORDS DON'T IMPLY HATE AND REVULSION.

BULLSHIT

This teaches us more about how your mind works than it does about the word "breeder".

I actually thought that "Cry me a river" was the more telling comment.

I'm awestruck.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Guest]

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I'll say that again cause it's not going to sink into some people's brains: SOME SLANG WORDS DON'T IMPLY HATE AND REVULSION.

BULLSHIT

This teaches us more about how your mind works than it does about the word "breeder".

And it teaches others that there are limits to "tolerance".

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Guest]

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I'll say that again cause it's not going to sink into some people's brains: SOME SLANG WORDS DON'T IMPLY HATE AND REVULSION.

BULLSHIT

This teaches us more about how your mind works than it does about the word "breeder".

I actually thought that "Cry me a river" was the more telling comment.

I'm awestruck.

rl

I think it was the "pity me" aspect of Narci's remark that set me off, as though gays in America are made to wear pink triangles and ride in the back of the bus.

A lot of what is portrayed as "equal rights" looks a lot more like "special, preferential treatment" to me.

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[narcimund 0]

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In your hypothetical world...Gays being the sleeping lion, would the 'respect' go out the window because of overwhelming 'power' negating is necessity?

Honestly, I don't claim to know. My original one-liner showed far more confidence than I really have.

However, I choose to believe that hate and torment of the minority by the majority are not inevitable. To prove it, think about all the thousands of minorities that DON'T get institutionally tormented now. They're the ones that you don't even notice:

• People with freckles
  
• People who like their steak well done
  
• People who part their hair in the middle
  
• Stamp collectors
  
• Scuba divers
  
• Skydivers
  

These are silly divisions to call "minorities" but that's what they literally are. And nobody notices -- or oppresses.

Imagine a world where the same thing is true for color and race and religion and everything else.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

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It's as bogus as "homophobia" (which means fear of mankind, not of gays),

Hmm, I have yet to see a dictionary that defines "homophobia" as "fear of mankind."

[RhondaLea 3]

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It's as bogus as "homophobia" (which means fear of mankind, not of gays),

Hmm, I have yet to see a dictionary that defines "homophobia" as "fear of mankind."

He has etymology confused with usage.

It's okay, though, because by his logic, a passion for mankind ("homomania") is bad.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[narcimund 0]

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You would know better than I would, is there even a slight fear deep down that you need to be on your toes and watch the P's & Q's...that the 'breeders' might riot and beat you down?

Oops. Forgot to address this fascinating question.

Yes, there's DEFINITELY that fear, although it seems to fade over the years, at least in the extremely decent places I've lived. In horrible communities where gay people still get strung up on barbed wire it might be more prominent.

But this is important: I've never (NEVER!) met a gay person who harbored generalized hatred of straight people where it wasn't DIRECTLY traceable back to specific events of discrimination.

Edited for spelling of a word I can just somehow NEVER get right.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[airtwardo 6]

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These are silly divisions to call "minorities" but that's what they literally are. And nobody notices -- or oppresses.

Imagine a world where the same thing is true for color and race and religion and everything else.
--

***

But no real 'fear' exists in regard to people with freckles...

Is not that much of a 'radical' difference to the overall norm of the majority.

Maybe it's just me...but as a middle age white man in southern Texas, I'm rapidly losing my majority 'membership card'.

As with others in my 'sub-class', I'm quickly realizing that I need to be more sensitive to one time minorities..even it weren't the PC thing to do...out of basic survival instinct!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[RhondaLea 3]

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But this is important: I've never (NEVER!) met a gay person who harbored generalized hatred of straight people where it wasn't DIRECTLY traceable back to specific events of discrimination.

You're going to get jumped on for this, because someone is going to say that this is true for most people who harbor a generalized hatred towards a specific group.

My daughter grew up in a multicultural environment, and when she was little, she told everyone that her father (blond) is white and her mother (me, brunette) is black. It made for some interesting times. Nonetheless, after she lived here in Florida for awhile, she developed an overwhelming hate-on for Mexicans, totally as the result of some very specific incidents.

This is not racism, it is not prejudice, it is post-traumatic stress disorder.

Just thought I'd provide the explanation before someone jumped on the opening.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[airtwardo 6]

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But this is important: I've never (NEVER!) met a gay person who harbored generalized hatred of straight people where it wasn't DIRECTLY traceable back to specific events of discrimination.

***
Specific events of discrimination to them personally, or to the gay community as a whole?

The Colorado killing was an assault (IMO) not on a single person, but on the whole gay culture.

Those idiots would have done that to ANY gay person that was unlucky enough to be in their reach at that point in time...

And that HAS to cause some degree of 'hate' by those 'in ' the oppressed minority toward the oppressors in general.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Hmm, I have yet to see a dictionary that defines "homophobia" as "fear of mankind."

He has etymology confused with usage.