House OKs flag desecration amendment... PASS IT!

[kelpdiver 2]

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After all.. People thought they had the freedom to own slaves. People thought they had the freedom to keep women from voting.

LMAO - Bill, how can you possible argue against this brilliant construction?

[billvon 2,476]

>Bill, how can you possible argue against this brilliant construction?

He's got me! Freedom surely means the freedom to own slaves. Everyone understands that.

[kelpdiver 2]

Ian/Rob,

I think there's a strong case to claim that the US is among, if not the leader in acute care. It's probably indisputable for cardiac related operations. Same may be said for biotech (drugs), though certainly there are European countries like Roche with their hands all over the place.

The US is not nearly so good when it comes for chronic care. Due to our tendency towards overeating and underexercising we have a higher incident rate, and we don't seem equipped to treat it very well. If it's not a drug or an operation that cures it, we resort to painkillers or alcohol.

Infant mortality is skewed badly by drug abuse and not taking proper care during the term. I'm not sure if it's a lack of availability or a lack of interest. If you looked at the mortality rates by race, there are some marked differences. White doesn't differ from the low (best) end of the EU.

(BTW, I don't think I'd ever feel best off as female in China, given their history from the 70s-90s)

[Michele 1]

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I didn't read post #27, I was just skimmimng thru.

Which would, of course explain quite a lot about your postings in general.

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Since then I publicly rectified it, but you are here to do as you did in the closed thread and just wait for any chance to jump at me.

You rectified it, but did not edit it. See, perhaps that's the difference between you and I. When I err, and I do (as I am human) and still have the opportunity to edit it, I do so. But I suppose you don't see that as anything you might consider. Again, a difference (rather large) between you and I.

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do you think Freethefly feels good about you using this for fodder against me?

Should he have an issue with me, he can bring it up - either via pm or publicly.

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Who's insensitive now?

I dunno...who?

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You could have PM'd me, but you want public capitla for this at the potential cost to the person you claim to be defending. You have contempt for me - likewise - take it to pm or otherwise drop it.

What, and be called a cunt again? Or a tired old ho-bag? Or suggest I prostitue myself? Nah, I'd rather not. At least here, your personal (and really rather vile) personal attacks aren't allowed to stand. So until you have some sort of understanding on how to communicate without calling someone names, I'd really rather not pm with you.

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Yes, we should suppress things likethis and the truth in general. In your conservative world we just shelve things and refuse to talk about them, which is why we can ignore them.

I'm all for discussing things. I have no interest in shelving pertinent topics and not learning nor looking at them from other positions and angles. People who read the posts will understand that about me. I made no suggestion to suppress things, nor to ignore them.

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well, you see this classist country allows for MJ to get meds and stay well, but not the poor people who are called all kinds of names, but refused meds and care. I hatethe same thing freethefly does - this classist pos country won't care for ill people unless they have money or are a celeb.

Well, you might have some points here. However, calling this country - or any country, for that matter - "pos" or piece of shit, makes your argument tenuous at best. I have had my own fights to get medical care, being a single white woman who is not eligible for some of the benefits this country provides to other "classes" of people; perhaps, then, I see it rather differently from you simply because of that.

As for suicide, I'm sorry John found himself at the bottom of the well and chose to end his life. That's gotta suck, and for your girlfriend's family I have sorrow and compassion. It had no part of the conversation except to demonstrate you knew someone once who had it. Sorta like saying "I have a black friend" or "I know a jew."

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And that's what matters - what you think. How about what the Muslims think? Oh that's right, that matters not.

Actually, you're correct; in my life, it's what I think that actually counts.

As to what the muslims think, I wish they understood that the symbolism rather than the item is important. I wish people in general understood that; it's just some words printed on some paper, and bound very nicely. Same with the Bible, Talmud, Torah, and so forth. The concepts which they impart are what is important; the spirituality which wends it's way into someone's life and heart is what's important, not the item.

Let's see if I can't explain it better for you.

I am having a delectable dinner. Prime rib, the works. What matters is the sustenance I gain from it, not on which plate - delft china, Lalique crystal, or a paper plate - it's served. It's the substance, not the item. The prime rib, not the plate.

Or how about another way: it's not the glass, it's the water in it which restores and refreshes. Heck, you don't even need a glass; just cup your hands, or bend down to the creek for the water. It doesn't matter what it comes in; it's simply an item which represents something, but is NOT that something.

So no, I don't care about a book. Whatever's written inside, that's what counts. Books and flags are replaceable...the concepts, the ideology, that's not.

As I said before, I find it abhorrent for someone to burn a flag. I find it far more abhorrent to append those freedoms to not allow someone to burn the flag.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[IanHarrop 37]

I have to agree. There's really no worthwhile argument here.
I also have to admit that I was having fun with the statement "Proof of that is the US healthcare system is one of the finest in the world." and when I asked for references to back up such a statement, none were forthcoming. So I went looking for stats to show the flaws and it was just too easy.

There are many, many things that the US does right in its medical system - high availability is just one, especially compared to places like Canada.

However I think its good for everyone, no matter where they live, to be aware that there is no nirvana.

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[Ron 7]

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you call that logic? Why is free healthcare not as good as health care you pay for?

Every been to a free health clinic?

I go to the VA, which is exactly what you want. It is not all it is cracked up to be.

How good do you consider your health care in Canada?

From most of the Canadians I have talked to, they have to wait a long time, and the care is not good.

It is free and they like that, but most say they wish they could get care here.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,476]

>I go to the VA, which is exactly what you want. It is not all it is
>cracked up to be.

In 2004, you said:

"Having been in the Military (Which you have not)
And BEING a disabled vet (Which you are not)
I have found the VA hospitals run very well.
And I have practical experience with this issue that you don't since I have to go to the hospital about once a mth. (This mth three times).
. . .
Gee they are treating me pretty well, not hurting me at all."

Sounds like you find this that form of socialized medicine runs pretty well.

[EBSB52 0]

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I hate to break this to you, but the Japanese did that in 1942. Besides, again that ship isn't mine or yours, so that's a ridiculous statement.

I really hate to break this to you, but your not up on your world history. The attack on Pearl Harbor was in the year of our lord 1941, not 1942. Proverbial "slip" or just uninformed?

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Regardless of your age, or your interest in World War II, a visit to Pearl Harbor Hawaii is an extremely emotional experience. There are many war memorials across America, but there's something truly different here. At 7:55 on the sunny morning of Sunday, December 7, 1941, 183 Japanese warplanes swooped out of a cloudless sky and demolished the US Pacific fleet docked at Pearl Harbor. It was this single catastrophic event, not the invasion of Poland, the Battle of Britain or the persecution of the Jews, that finally dragged the United States into World War II.

Consider yourself "All Knowed Up Now"

OK, you win the semantic contest. I just pulled that out w/o caring to be exact. The point is, that you so carefull to distract the issue with nothingness that you steer from the real issue. You said that it would have been the same to burn your own flag as compared to someone damaging or descrating, or something to that effect, the USS Arizona. I state that it had been done, error in year (BFD). WHat say you? Also, the same for pissing on someone elses chute? Remember the real argument?

I don't expect an answer.

You correlate destroying something of your own as it would be destroying someone elses property, or in this example, governement property. Egads...

Now leave me alone for a couple hours, I've been collecting flags for a while and it's time for a torchin'

[Ron 7]

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Sounds like you find this that form of socialized medicine runs pretty well.

And ya know what? I was wrong. My Dr. left and I have been waiting several mths for another to come online.

Still, I have health insurance through work, so it does not matter to me.

I also wrote (Which you ignored):

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1. My care has been fine. That does not mean the guy next to me is treated well. How can I tell? I'm not him.

2. Comparing one persons experience to project the possible affect of a NATIONAL system is impossible.
I live in FL in a high retirment area..There are plenty of ex military here...In Podunk, OK. there may not be the same level of care.

I have no idea the level of health care for anyone but me, in my area, with my health issues is like.....How can I claim to know what it is like for someone else, somewhere else, with other health problems.

I would bet that somewhere there is a guy that is very unhappy with the care he has gotten from the VA.


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http://www.pittsburghlive.com/...review/s_132703.htmlA thousand veterans from the Pittsburgh area must wait a year before they can get an appointment with a government physician at one of three hospitals operated by the Veterans Administration, says the national commander of the American Legion.
Ronald F. Conley, of Pittsburgh, said the waiting list in the Pittsburgh area has forced 2,000 other western Pennsylvania veterans to seek treatment at a VA hospital in West Virginia where the wait isn't as long.

This region's veterans are among an estimated 200,000 to 300,000 veterans nationwide who can't get an appointment to see a VA physician, according to congressional reports.

In Maine, 1,800 veterans have been waiting two years for an appointment. At one medical center in Florida, 16,000 veterans wait for a year. In Ashville, N.C., 10,000 are on the waiting list, he said.

Conley said the wait for ill veterans -- or those who simply need prescriptions filled -- is intolerable even though VA policy requires an initial appointment within 30 days.

There are 500,000 veterans with pending claims before the VA, reports the General Accounting Office, the investigative arm of Congress. About 100,000 claims are more than a year old. The Veterans Claims Benefit Reduction Act of 2003 would allow the National Association of Veteran Service Officers to partner with the VA in reducing the backlog by allowing the service officers to review applications.

"A lot of these guys will be dead before the claims are adjudicated," Conley said.

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I had to wait a year to get in...But I HAD health care from my employer..so I didn't care.


I have no doubt that the system is messed up....It is the largest and that is going to cause problems...If it was made even larger...guess what? More problems.

Also I am service connected, so I get faster service than some guy that is not. And that makes a big difference.

And YOU said:
"And then you said the VA system was messed up, and it took you a year to get in, which jibes with Molly and Amy's experiences working there, and also supports the idea that they are underfunded."

Seriously, both Amy and Molly have worked at VA hospitals, and they are feeling the pinch.

So, do you think it is messed up or not Bill?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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just pulled that out w/o caring to be exact.

Which is normal for you.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[EBSB52 0]

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There is a correlation, but 1 aspect of medicine is availablity, then if you're a Fascist American, you dole it out to whomever deserves it. Then after that the quality issue becomes relevant.

If you are a give it away liberal the quality does not matter as long as its free. Even if it is almost impossible to get and does no good.

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The US has some of the best hospitals, research, and Doctors in the World. Yes, it costs.


Right, fewer peopleget better care - that's my argument.

Canada has free, but hard to get health care.


There's my correlation - cost and availability - you said they were seperate...... Arguing with you is easy and fun

Arguing with you is like arguing with my dog.

He does not understand logic either.

Try to understand this very simple concept....Giving it away will mean it is not as good (quality) while it will have lots of people trying to get it (Quantity)...Most of those that are trying to get it will not be able to since everyone is trying.

I go to VA hospitals....So I know something about this process and how it works....And from my experience it is MUCH better than what others have said.

And lets never forget you would rather drag everyone down to try and make everyone happy...Which makes no one happy. I'd rather the people who work hard have a chance at a good life while the lazy don't get shit.

Arguing with you is like arguing with my dog

You do that a lot?

He does not understand logic either.

And you've bought him all those books. Uh, what we have here is a case of Son OF Sam.... hope i don't live in your town . If he starts teling to do things, don't listen.

Try to understand this very simple concept....Giving it away will mean it is not as good (quality) while it will have lots of people trying to get it (Quantity)...Most of those that are trying to get it will not be able to since everyone is trying.


Oh Ron, it is purely laughable to have an 8th grade education condescend me.... you know I'm right.

Giving it away? Even in Socialism, there is no gift - taxpayers pay for it. WHat you're saying is that if we exclude some people then resources are here for those "good" people to have better care. So what you're saying is to let the AIDS patients hurry up and die, that is unless they have money.

Most of those that are trying to get it will not be able to since everyone is trying.


Right, exclusion.

And lets never forget you would rather drag everyone down to try and make everyone happy

Damned freeloaders wanting medical care for their families. What's next, food?

I'd rather the people who work hard have a chance at a good life while the lazy don't get shit.


There you've made a silly assumotion. 750k people of the 1.5 million that filed for bankruptcy last year filed due to medical bills..... 75% of those had medical insurance. See, these issues are too deep for you to understand. The oxymoron that our moron chimp in chief coined was, "compassionate Conservative." You, Ron, exemplify a Bushian compassionate conservative.

[Ron 7]

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Arguing with you is like arguing with my dog

You do that a lot?

Actually no, I dont have a dog anymore and he made more sense than you when I did have him.

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Oh Ron, it is purely laughable to have an 8th grade education condescend me.... you know I'm right.

8th grade education? Nice attempt at a sly attack. Still lame.

I'm carrying a 3.89 full time, while working full time.

Go fish stud....Oh BTW in the 8th grade, I knew the date of Pearl Harbor...Which is more than you now brainiac.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kelpdiver 2]

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Arguing with you is like arguing with my dog

You do that a lot?

Most dog owners do, unless their pet is one of the dumber breeds.

So what's the deal with posting the entire article, and then using the annoying bold quotation and response? Why not use the nice and effective indentation method like everyone else. Much easier to read, esp with the amount of verbiage you're putting out.

[tmontana 0]

Just out of curiosity, say this ammendment passes. What if i burn a flag that looks similar to the u.s flag, say i burn one with 51 stars on it or no stars, or one where the color of the stripes are reversed? or for that matter the malaysian flag?

___________________________________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin

[rwieder 0]

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I don't expect an answer.

And you don't deserve one either.

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You said that it would have been the same to burn your own flag as compared to someone damaging or descrating, or something to that effect, the USS Arizona.

I said no such thing.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[PhreeZone 15]

Actually.. if you read the first Amendment it refers to more then speech.

Amendment I to the U.S. Constitution
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.



It refers to the freedom of speach, freedom of the press and freedom to assemble and freedome to protest. Protesting or picketing is covered under both the assembly and the speach clauses. If the crowd has signs they are covered under the speech and the press portions. Speech and the press are both cited in many SCOTUS rulings as being able to be applied to written materials, spoken word as well as actions.

Here is a breakdown of cases if you don't believe the justices of the SCOTUS thought speech was just oral.

Stromberg v. California
West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette
Spence v. Washington
Wooley v. Maynard (by proxy of his actions)

On the flag burning issue see:
Texas v. Johnson
United States v. Eichman

Then again.... this fight has been going on since the 1890's.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[rhino 0]

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or the right of the people peaceably to assemble

How is burning a flag peaceful? Nothing about flag burning is within the right to free speech.

Rhino

[PhreeZone 15]

Are they destroying any private property (other then their own flag)? Any public property? Are they injuring or killing anyone? No to all those huh? Sounds pretty peaceful to me.

The Supreme Court has ruled that flag burning is a form of speach at least 3 times. Want to go tell them they don't understand the laws of the US?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[rhino 0]

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Are they destroying any private property (other then their own flag)? Any public property? Are they injuring or killing anyone? No to all those huh? Sounds pretty peaceful to me.

Have you ever been burned? I have. Nothing peaceful about it.

It makes NO difference who's property the flag is. It is not peaceful. It is not within the bounds of free speech.

What's next?? Are you going to start burning BALD EAGLES alive to exercise your freedom of expression?

[Jimbo 0]

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Have you ever been burned? I have. Nothing peaceful about it.

Are you comparing burning the flag to setting your neighbor on fire?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[billvon 2,476]

>Have you ever been burned? I have. Nothing peaceful about it.

Are you having the same discussion as everyone else here? Cause flags are not people. Really.

[Muenkel 0]

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>Have you ever been burned? I have. Nothing peaceful about it.

Are you having the same discussion as everyone else here? Cause flags are not people. Really.

lol!!

Anyway...as a card carrying right wing conservative, I think this ammendment attempt is complete bullshit! Like others said, we don't need to go down this road.

Chris

[rwieder 0]

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Are you having the same discussion as everyone else here? Cause flags are not people. Really.

I can't believe this statement. That's the whole problem here is the denegration of society. The flag used to be about unification of people, it's all about people, our forefathers our history and so on and so forth. Being "One" with the flag used to be the way it is. I deeply saddened, and perplexed that this doesn't seem to be the case any longer.

Is the flag inannimate? NO. I am "One" with my, "our" flag. If someone burns a flag for BS reasons, or just to prove a point, they are burning a piece of me as well.

There are obviously quite a few "Bleading Heart Liberals" here. Burn your flags, kill the very soul that the greatest nation on the face of the earth has been based upon for all of our lives. Go ahead and "express" yourselves, your all traitor's inho. It's BS like this that causes the people in other countries to label us with the monikers such as "infidels" "back stabbers" "ugly americans" I'm starting to get an understanding why the rest of the world thinks americans are such assholes, hell, we can't even be loyal to ourselves. That's pathetic.

Ya'll go ahead and burn your flags. I'll fly mine with pride, diginity and grace. I'll salute it as well every chance i get. I love my flag and my country, and those of you that want to feed off of the constitution and burn flags, don't call yourselves americans, because your not. "America, love it, or leave it" It's really time to do some soul searching.

Fire Away.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[rhino 0]

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and those of you that want to feed off of the constitution and burn flags, don't call yourselves americans, because your not.

AGREED 100%.

[SkyDekker 1,155]

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Every been to a free health clinic?

Nothing is ever free...my taxes and private insurance pay for the clinics I go to.

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How good do you consider your health care in Canada?

I consider the health care to be outstanding.....once you get it. Many Canadians would wish that those who could afford to pay more for certain care could get it seperately, which would free up the system for those who cannot. Such a two tier system is currently against the law in Canada. However, some Canadians do end up going to the US, or India, or Thailand for certain operations or MRIs for instance. Not because the care is necessarily better, but because the availability is better.