Ask your instructors

[tdog 0]

If I read that line again (yes the subject line for this thread) on these forums one more time, I am going to shoot someone.

Often times this advice is given by someone who is not an instructor.

SINCE THEY ARE NOT AN INSTRUCTOR, their advice to talk to an instructor is useless... Don't believe it. Don't do it...

Unless of course... The person giving the "ask your instructor" is an instructor. Then their recommendation to ask an instructor is a solid recommendation.... But only if that instructor is rated by the agency that governs the newbies activities...


Get my point here? At what point do replies in forums become useless... If all someone can say is, ask your instructor, why even post? Why should the person on the other end of the discussion believe you????

At what point does a student have to assume that everything they learn here is opinions, some are great, and some are crap. Can't we treat students with the respect that they deserve, as grown ups?

Rant, over....


Here is what I would so much rather see... A newbie comes to these forums and asks a complex question... The first person to post, instead of saying, "Ask your instructor" - if they want to "protect" the student from the "B.S." on these forums - assuming their instructors have not already instilled that culture, should "protect" the student by instead saying:

"Dear friend, you know that these forums are just like the DZ hangar. You will get many opinions, some from instructors, some from pros without the rating, and some from idiots. In order to be the best skydiver possible, you should ask as many questions as possible, and hear as many responses as possible, and then decide for yourself what makes sense, and who to believe. You will learn as much from your fellow students as you will from the people who invented this sport. That being said, here is my opinion, barely worth the bandwidth it takes to post, but it is my opinion... Don't buy that canopy, the wingloading is just too high for you."


So - that is my story. Next time you feel compelled to say, "ask your instructor"... Instead, start getting the student to understand how to learn in this sport, specifically introduce the concept that no one should blindly follow advice from anyone, but instead should open their mind and accept various opinions and decide based upon critical thinking, not blind faith in a rating, name, reputation, job title, number of jumps, etc.

[AFFI 0]

One thing I do not like to deal with when I am working with a skydiving student is when I am training them in the specific method the DZ I work at utilizes and the student inquires why I am not training like some guy he has received advice from over the internet or on the packing room floor. So I am careful not to give direct advice or to choose to what extent I give advice to a student that is actively participating in a skydiving curriculum at another DZ.

Edit to add:
Before I became a rated solo freefall instructor often times students would come ask advice concerning their training. Even if I knew the answer to their inquiry I would ALWAYS tell them to talk to their instructors simply because I was not an instructor. Well intentioned advice from experienced skydivers to students is not always beneficial to the effectiveness of the training that a student/instructor shares, often times it is a hindrance.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[Amazon 7]

I always thought people did it as a disclaimer for responsibility... a cop out if you will.

[tdog 0]

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One thing I do not like to deal with when I am working with a skydiving student is when I am training them in the specific method the DZ I work at utilizes and the student inquires why I am not training like some guy he has received advice from over the internet. So I am careful not to give direct advice to a student that is actively participating in a skydiving curriculum at another DZ.

I agree and I almost said something about this in my post...

"Dear Friend, your skydiving school has a method they have designed, and it probably will best work if you follow it pretty closely."

I only have just over 100 student jumps last year, but I actually like when people ask questions, even from the internet. I have enough confidence to say, "we teach this way because..." And sometimes I say, "that will work too, wanna try it?" Of course these are for the small picture decisions that are already instructor discretion.

I will agree - it is real bad when a student does something you are not expecting because they read something on the internet or talked to someone else - but as an instructor, I hope to build a relationship with the student where they understand we are going to jump the plan, and the plan is what we put together before the jump.

[AggieDave 6]

Maybe its being in a college town with a lot of college student skydiving students that means they're more likely to look on the internet. Who knows, but we've had a fairly large number of students at some point in their skydiving careers prior to their A-license come to us and go "hey, I read on the internet..."

You deal with that a few times as an instructor or a coach and when talking to students on the internet you too will state "Talk to your instructors" prior to explaining something that coordinates with the SIM or is labeled plainly as your opinion.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[tdog 0]

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You deal with that a few times as an instructor or a coach and when talking to students on the internet you too will

Then don't answer at all!

Just kidding...

Actually - the hardest "I read on the Internet questions" I faced all of 2006 were the "So, I saw on the news that someone fell out of a harness" and "so I saw on the news that someone's reserve malfunctioned." Both of these happened in the "uplifting, why we enjoy this sport" part of the FJC with 9 other people I then had to educate on the subject.

The rest of the questions "from the internet" normally start a good two way conversation and I don't mind someone reading up on the internet. I will give links to manufacture web sites, etc...

I use the line to students when I am working with them one on one: "I learned more from the internet and even Dropzone.com than anywhere else... I DID NOT answer my questions using just these sources, but I learned of questions I did not even know to ask. Once I discover the question on the internet, I answer it with any and every source of information."

I also say in the first jump course: "Yes, I am a rated AFF instructor, which means I have a rating to teach you the absolute basics required to jump from a plane. I am not always right. No one is. Your job as a student is to open your mind and start learning who to believe. Find mentors on every subject at hand. Until you are cleared to self supervise, we need to work together as a team on every jump, so don't get creative based upon something you read, but very soon you will no longer be a student and learning how to learn in our sport now is very important."

[AggieDave 6]

Exactly. So hopefully the people I told to talk to their instructors did just that. They went to their instructors and discussed what they had a question about and some of the opinions they read. Then hopefully it started a good conversation of learning between the student and teacher.

I've found that a lot of those conversations end up envolving other people around the DZ listening, sometimes learning, many times adding good constructive conversation and everyone ends up learning something.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[billvon 2,400]

An old friend of mine once said "all advice is bad." And there's some truth to that. Advice that you follow blindly _is_ bad. Advice that makes you think is good.

Every once in a while I see a new jumper who thinks he knows it all, or at least has talked to people who know it all. He believes that if he pulls the toggles down to X inches he will get a good flare, or that reserves don't malfunction. These people worry me.

If you talk to them enough, or if they see enough, or they get enough experience, they will at some point reach a breakthrough. They'll think "hey, you know, that guy did what I do and got hurt. Maybe I don't know everything about xxxx after all. . ." And that's when their learning process really starts. It's important to get people to that point, the point at which their own judgement system is refined enough to start making value, instead of binary, decisions.

To get there they need a lot of help. Sometimes it comes from what they learn at the DZ. Sometimes it comes from things they read in Parachutist, or things they see on a video. Sometimes it comes from the internet. Most often it's a combination of all three.

So when I get a question from a newbie on the net, I will generally try to give them good advice, and recommend they talk to someone at their DZ as well. Both are important in getting them to that point where their own judgement takes over from what other people are telling them.

[LordRatner 0]

Atta boy, Travis.

I agree completely. Unlike you, I'm not an instructor. If someone asks me a question, I give my opinion, and if I feel its something someone else is better suited to answer, which is often the case, I'll normally go with that person and ask, since I would like the answer too.

This is a message board. The whole point is to get opinions from other people. If it was only for instructors to comment, there would be a requirement to register enforcing that.

I think it's fine to throw a disclaimer in there telling someone to consult an instructor who is familiar with them, but then answer the damn question, otherwise, don't waste time with an empty post.

[AFFI 0]

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explaining something that coordinates with the SIM

Exactly...

Personally, I use a lot of discretion when advising students, even when it is at my DZ and another instructor is working with them.

It may cause confusion and/or a lack of confidence the student has for the instructor they are working with, create additional training time for the instructor working with time in their training process and to me is disrespectful to my fellow instructors.

And I will add that there are a LOT of instructors/upjumpers here on DZ.com that I have a tremendous amount of respect for (even though it may not seem like it)and have learned a LOT simply by sitting back and reading. Often times I even have to force myself to not respond to some of the things communicated and just let the string evolve and see where it goes next.
-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[AFFI 0]

Quote

I think it's fine to throw a disclaimer in there telling someone to consult an instructor who is familiar with them, but then answer the damn question, otherwise, don't waste time with an empty post.

Sometimes I will post exactly that, not only to send a message to the student making the inquiry, but hopefully to send a message to other advice givers, the instructor working with that student does not need the complication.

Everyone is well intended, but often times advice is given that just shouldn’t be.

As usual, Bill is right on with his post above.
-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[porpoishead 5]

If I read that line again (yes the subject line for this thread) on these forums one more time, I am going to shoot someone.
_____________________________________________________

ask your instructors

if you want a friend feed any animal
Perry Farrell

[shropshire 0]

or you could die

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[tdog 0]

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As usual, Bill is right on with his post above.
-

Yep, he sure is... (Replying to your post because I agree) And, what I liked about Bills post is that he says he will add value while also recommending that the person talks to someone at their DZ...

It is not the autotext, "Ask your instructors", which is just going to cause frustration and not solve the problem for the person asking the question when someone else posts an answer...

You guys are all right! Bill, you, Aggie - all in your frustrations working with students, - but saying "Ask Your Instructors" is not going to solve the problem longterm for the student, only defer that ONE question. The fact is, I am guessing - 60% or more of the advice someone is going to get in this sport is wrong. At 2 jumps or 100 jumps or 1000 jumps, we all can open the new skydiver to the concept to hear what other people are saying, but never believe it at face value until they have thought about it critically and decided if it is good advice.

[rehmwa 2]

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The fact is, I am guessing - 60% or more of the advice someone is going to get in this sport is wrong.

You are being generous

Tidbits I've heard:

1 - All Freeflyers swoop, therefore they should get out first.
2 - Just watch the group before you, when that angle is 45 degrees, start your climbout.
3 - If it's really windy, spiral down to get out of the wind.
4 - If I fly with the wind, the wind will collapse your canopy from behind.
5 - Holding half brakes on (new high performance) canopies will help keep it inflated in turbulence.
6 - to build a donut, just hand your knee to the next person, keep moving it until they can get it
7 - sit suits really teach you how to freefly
8 - skydiving is a totally safe activity
9 - You don't need to even learn to belly fly, go straight to freefly
10 - Your first canopy should be conservative, try a wingloading of 1.5 or less
11 - Booties are a wasted investment, never get them
12 - mantis is a waste of training
13 - The high man has right of way
14 - Pro packing is much more dangerous that flat packing
15 - base jumping is just a form of skydiving
16 - it's ok, we only jump at one or two boogies each year, so we like to do big freefly jumps to be with all our friends

and -

17 - chugs the beer - hey, guys, watch this!

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[tdog 0]

Ya - but guess what... Dropzone.com in the public forums is probably a "safer place" for someone to get advice, because there is always someone here to cry foul to really bad advice...

In the hangar, two guys in the corner talking - there are no checks and balances.

At least here, the newbie will see more than one opinion and see a heavy debate and should "understand" that they need to think more about the questions at hand.... Start the culture of critical thinking when someone has 1 jump so when they have 25 or 2500 they are not the ones giving the bad advice....

And, if someone on these forums reads real bad advice, which many other people offered in debate as being bad, and follows that advice... More power to their stupidity...

[bch7773 0]

dude quit freaking out.... and ask your instructor

MB 3528, RB 1182

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Ya - but guess what... Dropzone.com in the public forums is probably a "safer place" for someone to get advice, because there is always someone here to cry foul to really bad advice...

In the hangar, two guys in the corner talking - there are no checks and balances...

Actually I agree with you - my list is from the DZs - some you recognize as repeated here.


Edit: As usual, "ask your instructor" really depends on the Instructor. Though we hope the qualification standards will weed out the worst. I know one that I wouldn't trust to instruct a student correctly on the potential use of the reserve handle as a carrying point let alone on how to fly a body or a canopy.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Mostly_Harmless 0]

It seems to me that on these forums the phase "Ask your instructor" only applies when the poster agrees with the advice giving by the instructor. I know that I have read in the past of people saying there instructor told them they could do something (downsize, jump a certain canopy, jump a certain reserve size) to which posters disagree with and then the advice of "Ask your instructor" no longer applies.

_________________________________________
www.myspace.com/termvelocity

[kelpdiver 2]

tdog- so the line you would suggest instead would be "consult with your instructor after reading this thread."

But that's a bit wordy, no?

[icevideot 0]

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I know that I have read in the past of people saying there instructor told them they could do something (downsize, jump a certain canopy, jump a certain reserve size)......

In all fairness, students are not always accurate when they quote what their instructor "told them". I have even ran into this when I overheard someone coaching on canopy flight or emergency procedures. Then only minutes later have them say to me they were never told not to turn below 300 feet or were told to pull if they are unstable. They are trying to absorb a lot of information and some of it gets skewed. That is why it is so repetitive.

As for the checks and balances in the hanger, I don't recommend anyone to take the advice of only one source. Even if the info is good then the understanding of it can be flawed. Discussing things with different people can lead to much greater insight. It also gives you a chance to evaluate the advice givers and decide which are better sources and which are often contradicted.

The reason very low timers or students are sent to instructors is because sometimes it is as important what you don't tell them as it is what you do tell them. There is a reason emergency procedures are simplified in the beginning and as proficiency builds the different variables can be explained in detail.

This is my opinion but you can always ask your instructor.

"... this ain't a Nerf world."

[tdog 0]

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The reason very low timers or students are sent to instructors is because sometimes it is as important what you don't tell them as it is what you do tell them. There is a reason emergency procedures are simplified in the beginning and as proficiency builds the different variables can be explained in detail.

I buy that in the context of on the DZ training, meaning - learn now, jump in an hour. There is no time to process lots of info into longterm memory, so what is learned the day of a jump needs to be focused by importance and without conflict.

I have taught many large FJC last summer. I always end with a verbal quiz of the "key things". Then there are two written quizzes that we discuss after they answer. I use the scores and the speed in which people answer to determine how well they remember what I taught... I then use the scores to tweak how I teach next time... One thing I have learned - if a student can answer the "why" question, they are going to be able to put the answer in their own words quickly. If they don't know the "why", then it is just a matter of memorization, which is much harder to recall. I would also argue, understanding the "why" allows for better problem solving when the circumstance is "not in the book."

That being said, I want students to think about things, and ask questions, that prove to me they are learning "why" they are taught what they are taught...

But - I don't buy the fact information overload exists off the DZ, because all it does, if done properly, is allow them to question "why" and get a deeper understanding.

What people learn by critical thinking and analyzing from what the see, read, watch from training videos, books, and the internet - does not conflict with the on the DZ learning if the student has been taught that every task has more than one solution, and some are right, some are wrong, some are simple taught to students, some are advanced that they will tranisition to eventually.

If anything, off DZ thinking, causes better retention, because the student might read about EPs, then ask themselves, "what did I learn in school" and it will tickle their memory. Hopefully their instructors have built the culture where their student knows there is more than one way to skin a cat, to follow the instructor's way until they are no longer a student, and then they can make their own decisions based upon their own knowledge. If the student has not been introduced to this concept, and hopefully accepted the culture of learning, then I would blame the instructor, not people on DZ.com who shared their opinions....

[riggerrob 558]

I half agree with what you said.

During the first jump course, I limit information to "must knows."

During freefall training, I teach some of the "should knows."

Around the A Certificate level, I fill in some of the gaps with "could know" information.

[jbanning 0]

Being new to the sport, I am constantly asking questions. My AFF instructor explained to me he is just the kindergarten teacher. I am at a small DZ where everyone offers free advice and tips (right or wrong). In the End it is your life in your own hands and you as a skydiver need to collaborate all the information and make the final decision for yourself. This is the same for most sports, for example, I have been in the sport of powerlifting for 7 years and it mirrors skydiving in the sense that opinions and tips to fly at you from all directions from people that want to see you succeed.

[MarkM 0]

I think "ask your instructors" is the most appropriate response for someone who's still a student or barely off student status. They don't have the background to filter out the bad advice and they should be learning in an instructor <-> student relationship and not from the net.

Edit: and stuff like this thread are examples why http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2554797;#2554797

Newbie wants tracking advice, a dead simple thing, end of the day is a chopper ride to the hospital for them and flying through canopies in the flight line.

Some new people need to be watched more than others. An instructor in person can pick these people out better.