DZ Business Practices

[ChromeBoy 0]

At 7:00am this morning I had a meeting with the Area Managers with the company I work for. We discussed our current business practices and what it will take to increase our sales in the Eastern Region. Some of the ways we decided we would train our Sales Managers to steal market share were downright to the throat. 100% direct sales is what we need and have to do. The initial decisions are as follows...
- Our Sales Managers will do whatever it takes to steal clients from our competitors. Examples: Follow clients when they leave the offices to see where they go, gain competitor documents through whatever means as necessary, low ball the competition as a last resort to steal the business, etc. Utilize revenue management resources to ensure we are getting the maximum amount for each product. Bill clients who are no shows for their reservations, etc.
My question is that these instances occur in businesses everyday. This is part of staying competitive and keeping an increase in revenue year over year. However, when I hear different people discuss how dropzones operate and the certain practices they have that, "are not fair or nice to other dropzones," I don't understand. I understand and appreciate the loyalty some of us have to the DZ's we belong too but why judge a dropzone by a business decision the DZO made?

[rking12 0]

As a business manager I feel the same way. The same ethics should apply though. Be fair and honest above all else and just beat them at the game.

[skybytch 259]

Why should skydiving be like the corporate world? I'd hate to work in an industry that promotes the practices you just described...
pull & flare,
lisa

[james1010 0]

Well said!

[rendezvous 0]

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I'd hate to work in an industry that promotes the practices you just described...
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I would hate to see the skydiving industry work like that too how ever thats what capitalism is. For things not be done any differently you would need a socialistic or communistic pattern. It's just the mechanics behind the economics.

[billvon 2,476]

>I would hate to see the skydiving industry work like that too how ever thats what
>capitalism is.
No, capitalism is just private ownership of business, and defines success through profit. You can make it as cutthroat or as altruistic as you want.
>For things not be done any differently you would need a socialistic or
> communistic pattern.
No, see above. For example, PD charges high prices but gives a lot of stuff away for free - I've gotten more than one canopy repaired for free after sending it back for a simple reline, and have gotten a lot of free demos, support etc. As a result, they do well. Precision recently had a problem and charged people to fix a problem with their reserves. As a result, even though Precision was more "capitalist" in some ways (i.e. used their power to require the work be done, then charged people for it)* I think they will end up selling fewer canopies as a result, because people didn't like that.
One way to look at that is that it's anti-capitalistic - PD charges more than market rate, yet gets more sales. PD gives stuff away, yet still profits. Another way to look at it is that skydivers value more than just goods - they also value service and reputation and attitude. Personally, I would tend to not buy from a company that screws other people over (note that I do NOT include Precision in that list.) That means that, even in a capitalistic society, we can decide how cutthroat we want the skydiving industry to be.
(* = Yes, I know there's way more to it than that, but that is the impression I have gleaned from the people involved with the reworked canopies.)
-bill von

[ChromeBoy 0]

Maybe I should put this another way. First, my philosphy for dropzones is that it is my release and I never want to be put into all the political bullcrap the goes on behind the scenes at some of the dropzones I have been to. Therefore, I would never really want to get into the dropzone ownership part of the sport. However, we are thrown into some of these occurences. The decisions are not ours to make but we often criticize DZO for their decisions.
I will give you an example of something that I have heard. There was a group of 8 college frat brothers that booked Tandems on a Saturday at DZ (A). One of the frat brothers accidently called another DZ (B) to get information. The DZ (B) offered the group a lower rate at their dz to get the guys to theirs. The group did not call Dropzone (A) to cancel the reservation. So on Saturday DZ (A) had enough tandem masters their to cover the group that no showed. They went to DZ (B) instead and completed their first jumps and others went on to go through the rest of the tandems and scheduled times for the IAF training.
In business this is a normal occurence. Why should DZ (B) be criticized for offering the group a lower rate to get the business? Do you think DZ (A) should have charged the group for no shows?

[mountainman 0]

That depends if they got a deposit and said that it is "non refundable".
If they didn't pay anything, all they got was a reservation.
Seems to me that if you pay something, then you actually bought it and the DZ has the say "yes" or "no" to keep it. (In which case, the decision should be a policy.)
To me, that seems the best, but I am FAR from being a buisness person.
JumpinDuo.com...come and sign the guestbook.

[Sebazz1 2]

DZ (A) should have taken a non refundable deposit on the reso's so the DZO's could at least give a couple of $'s to the JM's that showed up for nothing..........
**I am laughing very very hard at myself right now
Business is business and you gotta do what you gotta do. Most DZO's are able to portray themselves as honest good people. But we know they are the same as us and everyone else who is out to make a couple of bucks and have fun before we die. DZ's are no different than any other business.
Skydiving on the other hand is like nothing else I can think ofSEBAZZ.......

[dove 0]

OK - totally unrelated. Sebazz, I am still waiting to see your shiney hiney!
dove

[Sebazz1 2]

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shiney hiney

Damn I gots to shave..........
SEBAZZ.......

[dove 0]

[singsong voice] I see your hiney, so nice and shiney! If you don't hide it, I just might bite it! [/singsong voice]
drooling dove

[lummy 4]

Sebazz...
REMEMBER.....Butt for Boobs
baby's hungry and the money's all gone. the folks back home don't want to talk on the phone.

[Keith 0]

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In business this is a normal occurence. Why should DZ (B) be criticized for offering the group a lower rate to get the business? Do you think DZ (A) should have charged the group for no shows?

This is very different than what you described earlier. What you described earlier was dishonest, plain and simple.
Keith

[rendezvous 0]

You cannot blame either because if they are in the business of making money then they are automatically part of a capitalistic system, well atleast in the US. Now, how they make their money is a matter of business strategy. If DZ(A) chooses not to take a deposit but DZ(B) does, then A is making itself more competitive in the market. The price it pays for that is that it takes on a higher risk. It's making itself more competitive simply bacause it wants to take away DZ(A's) business. If DZ(A) counter's that by bringing down it's price then there's nothing unethical about it. It's just trying to offset the risk that has been imposed upon it by DZ(B's) move of not taking a deposit. In essense 'B' is cashing on providing more flexibility to it's clients while 'A' is cashing in on a better price. End of the day both are trying to work on their botton line, and that is essentially what it will be in a capitalistic system. If there is a DZ(C) that can provide both, lower prices and more flexibility then it will run both A and B into the ground. Doesn't mean that C is now a bad guy in the game. If you don't want C do be able to do that then you need to protect A and B. Which essentially means you are going into a socialistic pattern. Now ,there's nothing wrong with that. Just that in the US that's not the business model you vote for.

[ChromeBoy 0]

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This is very different than what you described earlier. What you described earlier was dishonest, plain and simple.

Leaving out the dz part of it, what do you consider being dishonest? The fact that to increase sales companies are going to great lengths to find out their competitors customers and trying to sell them on their "brand"?

[FallingILweenie 0]

One thing about this:
If one dropzone is cutting corners to be able to stay competitive, I don't want any part of it. it is a business, but this isn't like selling coke or pepsi...people can die in this sport.
I agree that dz's try their best to make as much as possible...it's why they are in business to begin with but i think there's a limit to it.
Another aspect of it: when i was president of the Falling Illini club at Illinois, I would hear sales pitches from dropzones whenver i would go to move the club from where it is now. I understand why they'd wanna do this, so if they asked and i explained i didn't wanna move the club, fine. But there was one DZ that whenever i got an email from them, or if they were on campus to do promotions (i never had a problem with this, if they wanna do promotions, that's their deal...i just always made sure they didnt use the club name) and i saw them or something i would ALWAYS hear the sales pitch. To the point where i had a negative opinion of the dz simply because they harrassed me. I never wanted to go to jump there (and i didnt till i was no longer club president) because it wouldnt be fun to skydive where every chance they got i heard their spiel on why the club should move there. Anyway, my point is that i do this for fun (like someone else mentioned) and i dont care for the politicking, and the annoyance cost them my business.
blue skies
Tomas
ps. FallingMarc...you will be sick of it by the time you pass the torch....

[weid14 0]

you know some of that is illegal?

[ChromeBoy 0]

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you know some of that is illegal?

Some of what is illegal?

[PhillyKev 0]

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Follow clients when they leave the offices to see where they go

If I was the client and found out about that, you'd never get my business and I'd bad mouth you to everyone I possibly could

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gain competitor documents through whatever means as necessary

Does that include misrepresenting yourself or coercing others into giving you confidential, proprietary communications? If so, that's where you're pushing the limits of legality

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low ball the competition as a last resort to steal the business

If you're able to turn a profit at a lower price, and willing to do so to increase business, maybe that's what you should be concentrating on instead of slimy tactics.
Not all of corporate America is cutthroat, as you put it. A lot of businesses are founded on solid morals and belief in their own product or service. The only places that I ever worked that I would ever return to had a code of ethics where they sold themselves and tried to increase their value to the consumer rather than undermine their competitors. And one of the cardinal rules at a couple places I worked was never mention a bad thing about a competitor, even if they were trashing you all over town.
Companies who have low morals in sales to increase profit usually have the same level of commitment to their customers. If the dollar is more important to them than the product or service they're offering, they will always be inferior to their competitors.
cielos azules y cerveza fría
-Kevin

[bbarnhouse 0]

"Companies who have low morals in sales to increase profit usually have the same level of commitment to their customers. If the dollar is more important to them than the product or service they're offering, they will always be inferior to their competitors."
Can you imagine what the commitment to their employees must be like as well?
In any business, your people are your greatest asset.
It only takes a little pixie dust......

[weid14 0]

see philly kevs reply... but follwoing people, obtaining infomation that is confidetial (i.e. stealing) and other stuff in not only unethical, but dishonest.

[freaksister 0]

Well, I am not claiming to be any sort of expert in sales, business or dropzone management. I do work in ticket sales/manifest however, and I will put in my two cents.
At my dz, we charge a $50 non-refundable deposit on tandems and AFF FJC students. To cancel or change the reservation you must call at least 3 days in advance. Without getting into a long drawn out explanation of why, and the pros and cons of it, I believe the system works pretty well. I explain it to people clearly on the phone, and very politely.
I also personally believe our dropzone has superior aircraft and superior instructors. This can be verified by simply comparing said things with our competition. One thing we do not do, however, is bad mouth our competition. We emphasize our good points, and if people really have any doubts, I always invite them to come out to the dz and see for themselves. Everyone is welcome at our dz regardless.
I guess my point is that I think we have fairly progressive business practices, without being cut-throat or negative about it. We are being more aggressive with advertising and spending alittle more money that way, but I think its paying off. What we will NOT do is resort to underhanded business techniques or unethical practices. In any business, that's not good, but in skydiving, its very bad karma. :) You gotta remember that skydiving is a relatively small community!!
Sis
Can you Trip like I do?

[ChromeBoy 0]

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If I was the client and found out about that, you'd never get my business and I'd bad mouth you to everyone I possibly could

The client never finds out. It is called research and if you do not know the customers of your competitors how do you succeed? You have to be informed about the realities of the customers' industry and knowledgeable about their organizations' particular needs. Where is their supply currently coming from and what have they done to gain this demand? What are the strengths and weaknesses of their product and how can we grow from that?
How do you gather that information? Is it produce a product and hope that it does well in the market and watch it sink? No. It is by watching the competition succeed and gain information on their successes and failures. In any organization if you do not complete research about your competition and what their strengths and weaknesses are you will lead the market. You find out what you have that they don't and sell against it. It is not misrepresentation and telling clients you can meet their needs when you cannot. It is about understanding what others offer and what you have that the competition does not.

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If you're able to turn a profit at a lower price, and willing to do so to increase business, maybe that's what you should be concentrating on instead of slimy tactics.

There are absolutely no slimy tactics involved in understanding the realities of our competition and knowledgeable about the customers particular needs.
You gain commitment by opening and nurturing relationships; not just closing sales. Find out what the competition does successfully and unsuccessfully. You build your business to succeed in the areas that they do not and maintain the products and services that they do and you are not misrepresenting anything.

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A lot of businesses are founded on solid morals and belief in their own product or service. The only places that I ever worked that I would ever return to had a code of ethics where they sold themselves and tried to increase their value to the consumer rather than undermine their competitors. And one of the cardinal rules at a couple places I worked was never mention a bad thing about a competitor, even if they were trashing you all over town.

It is about understanding your competition and not downgrading the competition. I never said a word about that. All I said was go for the throat and understand the competition and the customers needs. Build your product around that. It is not lying and giveing false information. No business will be successful that way.

[AggieDave 6]

Ape, your DZ also charges about 1/2 a kidney for a tandem, its the highest in the state! J, Lori, Jessica and I had a fairly long discussion about that once...
"Are they short-shorts?" T.B.