Claims of torture in Guantanamo Bay

[Beerlight 0]

Quote

My guess is that they are making them eat military chow. That IS cruel...

I agree, I just had an MRE the other day...YICK, yuck, pitooey!! Seriously though, f*#$k the terrorist.

[Zlew 0]

Fuck them
FUCK THEM
i could give a shit...
i hate to sound cruel or cold. but I could give a flying fuck what happens to those pukes.
There is always a left wing laywer who wants to sue the government over some bs ( remember when it was that we weren't giving them ethnically friendly food?...which we do by the way...and I say if they eat and survive then they are ahead of the game anyway).
I think it's bs to start with, and even if it's not...
EDIT: and you realize that it's not every captured arab with an AK47 there...we have thousads of them in Afganistan now (and thosands more we let go) The ones in Cuba are the high risk, high value folk. I say they are lucky to be alive. That is more than they can say for a lot of their Taliban terrorist (and even the nativs with guns just living their waring way of life....) can say. Most of them got to meet the business end of a JDAM....
I say FUCK THEM

Z

[Eiley 0]

Quote

I recently saw a documentary on the BBC where they were interviewing a couple of Afghanis who just been sent home after nearly 18 month of being held by the Americans. One of the guys was a taxi driver who happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. That cost him 18 month of his live under very harsh conditions and no idea if and when he would be release. He received no apology or compensation…

Saddest thing about that guy was he had been persecuted by the Taleban all his life (for one thing, he had a TV - BIG no-no).. and then he gets persecuted for suspected of being Taleban!

This is NOT about being bleeding heart lefties who want to give all terrorists a fair go. It's about giving the innocent people a fair go. Long beards and funny hats do not necessarily a terrorist make.

nothing to see here

[mikkey 0]

Quote

EDIT: and you realize that it's not every captured arab with an AK47 there...we have thousads of them in Afganistan now (and thosands more we let go) The ones in Cuba are the high risk, high value folk. I say they are lucky to be alive.

How do you know this? Nobody has been charged yet.

Can you explain to me why the BBC could find a number of Afghanis who were detained for up to 18 month and who had nothing to do with the Taliban, and even less with Al Qaeda? It took the US 18 month to establish this - and how come these guys were arrested and shipped to Cuba in the first place?
How would you feel, if an American had been arrested in Tibet by the Chinese, labelled to be an enemy combatant working for Tibetan "terrorists",
thrown into jail indefinitely without legal representation and without any charges. Would you repeat your eloquent statements ?
What happened to the "assumed innocent until proven guilty" thing? How can the US claim to be the defender of western values? How can the US avoid being accused to be racist if it only dishes this treatment out to non-US citizens?

I had no problems with the US holding these guys while they were "sorting things out". No problem - they were trying to stop new terrorist attacks and would have to vet who these guys are. But holding them 2 years without charge, without legal representation, without any "status" (POW, criminal, whatever) and creating a special "tribunal" system that has no foundation (to my knowledge) in US or International law.... that is just "not on".

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[Amazon 7]

I guess the US learned something from the N. Vietnamese after all. They held our "POW's" for many years in some cases without even letting us know who they had... those evil commie bastards called them Air Pirates and criminals. We constantly protested.. and our guys greatest accomplishment was to just to be KNOWN to be a prisoner.

Here we are many years later.. doing something similar.

Jeanne

[juanesky 0]

Far from similar, they have health care, their head towels and rugs for praying. Tell that to the POW's from the vietnam era, and they will tell you how great and humane treatment they did get.

How can you people even not think that these terrorism deal is not a big deal. I don't get it, for one it seems that philkev is more concerned about the legal implications about DRUGS into the terrorism laws (not surprisingly), and mikkey, well, he is just too perfect and cultured for us on the hemisphere....

Taliban was given a chance, to stop harboring terrorists, they chose not to, and the US considered that as a threat to national security.

Like it or not, all of the advocates for the fair and more humane treatment of the terrorists, should also respect the choice of those who want to stop them terrorists by any means possible.

America still is a free country, where you can start your own enterprise, and pursue happiness, and granted, many mistakes made, still Afghanistan is a better place now, if you doubt it, ask any woman from there.

Mikkey, thanks for the laughs.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Far from similar, they have health care, their head towels and rugs for praying. Tell that to the POW's from the vietnam era, and they will tell you how great and humane treatment they did get

I did... I talked to several of them when they came home in 1973.

My point is very simple... if we treat people this way in the here and now... without regard to international law.. what grounds will we have when someone treats our guys in a similar manner. Law is based on treaties and precedent.

Jeanne

[juanesky 0]

That is a fair comment, the part I do not agree is that you make the same comparisson, those people are fed, and given many but way too many things an american pow never gets.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Shark 0]

I'll jump in.... there are a great number of people out there who wouldn't have taken prisoners. Those detained should be lucky we're not calling them martyrs.

I wonder what Mike Spann or Neil Roberts would think. Given the opportunity they would have been better off being prisoners rather than being executed.

[mikkey 0]

Quote

those people are fed, and given many but way too many things an american pow never gets.

You mean American POW's in Vietnam in the 60/70's. That is not the standard. NV did break the Geneva Convention and committed war crimes. So the US should behave the same way as North Vietnam did?

The detainees are not POW's - they have no status what so ever (that IS the problem). They do not currently receive the entitlements of POW's as prescribed under the Geneva Convention. The US is holding these individuals (of which the majority probably are scum bags) under no recognized law or convention what so ever. This is what is being criticized. You can’t have it both ways. If the US wants other countries to obey international law and conventions, they need to do so as well - no matter how bad the guys they are holding are.

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[Amazon 7]

ITs not the same and yet it is.. we complain over and over about conventions the germans did not comply... the Japanese.. the N Vietnamese.. and we have always treated our prisoners according to Geneva Conventions etc... ( actually we have not always... war does strange things to people... how were german prisoners treated after news of the "Malmédy Massacre" spread throughout the US lines and stiffened the American's resolve, in addition to creating an unwritten agreement among US forces to take no Waffen-SS POWs)

The problem is this is America.. we hold ourselves to a different standard than other countries. To flaunt that now lessens all of us as a people... sure... keep them prisoner... but do it legally according to conventions of war... keep them till the war is over.... BUT to essentially dissappear people with no trace is more like I would espect of Stalin.. or Hitler... or General Augusto Pinochet of Chile. This is not the way America is supposed to deal with people... even murderous fanatical scum....at least not the America I grew up in... and served.



Jeanne

[akarunway 1]

I don't know what i'm trying to get across here but I was jailed in Louisiana in 1981 for poss. of a controlled substance. I was put in a cell w/ 17 people 10' by 10' for three days. toliet didn't work. it was so hot we had to strip naked and lay on the concrete floor in urine and feces to try to cool off as it was 120'+ in there. I watched a guy bribe a trustee for two razor blades which he chewed and swallowed to get out of this closed and sealed cell. then I was taken out with the others and put in another cell w/ as mant people. at least we had bars an a fan. I finnaly called my parent for help who bribed a judge an got m transferdto a dorm which could have held 100 people. i had it to myself whilst all the others still were sleeping on top of on another . my sentence. dropped charges if i would leave the state. comments? true story

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[tinfoil 0]

Quote

still Afghanistan is a better place now, if you doubt it, ask any woman from there.

Hahahaha!
There are some who would say otherwise:
AFGHANISTAN: Ultraconservatism and lack of resources hamper change for Khowsti women
Afghan women still face oppression
Very good quote there: "Amnesty found physical violence against women in the home. Underage and forced marriage. Trading of women and girls to pay off debts. Rape and abduction by armed groups. Fear and shame hindering access to desperately needed medical, legal and social assistance."
Still no liberation for Afghan women
"I was abducted," she says. "This man [the father of her unborn child] is not my husband. I have a family and I want to go back to them. But if my parents see I have a new baby, they may kill me."
Thought I'd throw this in as well Afghan women face 'daily danger'
"Amnesty says that when women do appear in the justice system, they are far likelier to be seen as culprits than victims."

Or that Afghanistan is improving since the war:
U S Proposes Only Additional $400 Million for Afghanistan
War on terror is making world more dangerous
A more dangerous place
Security for whom? A Human Rights response

“- - Sumo is the greatest of sports. It has power, grace, speed and cluture. And most importantly, two fat bastards smacking the shit out of each other. ”

[tinfoil 0]

Quote

That is a fair comment, the part I do not agree is that you make the same comparisson, those people are fed, and given many but way too many things an american pow never gets.

Maybe the US can set an example for other countries, and be a civilized country by treating POW's with at least the compassion required by the various treaties and conventions the US has agreed to.

“- - Sumo is the greatest of sports. It has power, grace, speed and cluture. And most importantly, two fat bastards smacking the shit out of each other. ”

[Tonto 1]

Quote

Quote

Aaaaaaaaaawwwwwww...poor terrorists.

That's beautiful. I think it's great that we now hold people without trial on foreign soil in definitely and deny them any due process of law. This kind of precedent scares me a lot more than any terrorist does, this is truly terrifying.

I know how you feel. The apartheid government had "detention without trial." You guys have the same thing now - except the people being called "terrorists" were captured in their own country, fighting an invading force.

It's sad.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Remster 24]

Quote

we hold ourselves to a different standard than other countries.

Unfortunatly Jeanne, your government and leaders apparently dont, and that's the message that is being broadcasted to the world.

Remster

[nigel99 144]

To true

If you listen to the crap that is broadcast about the US and then go there it is very different.

Not that I am defending the US government you can't break international law by playing word games on definitions and then bitch about others. Guantanamo is one example torture another. Clearly forms of torture were carried out in Iraq (playing barney full blast and sleep deprivation are not humane treatment just sophisticated forms of torture that don't leave bruises for the cameras.)

Like it or not those guys need to be treated in accordance with international law's.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[goose491 0]

As I read the article, I imagined several reply posts I might expect to find from a bunch of skydivers.

As I read your responses, I have to say that generally, I'm dissapointed.

We are still talking about human beings right? There's a very good reason those "monsters of the world" are being held in Cuba and not in the states. There's a very good reason that they are being called 'detainees' instead of 'P.O.Ws' and there's a very good reason they are being called 'combatants' instead of 'soldiers'. You all know, deep down, that these people are being mistreated. I'd venture so far as to say the very first time any of you heard about them, you imagined them being tortured for info, jokes spread like wildfire about all the things that may be being done to them... makes me sick. And I can't say it works wonders for the anti-Americanism in me.

Think real hard before suggesting that any of this camp x-ray bullshit is anywhere near humane, decent, moral or right. And remember always that this is the crap your grandchildren are going to read about in history class.... take a moment right now to think about the last 100 years in that book... don't you all think it's time to lighten up the story a bit?

Woa! Sorry guys, don't mean to be bashing the states. To stay with the topic at hand: IMHO, the prisonners at camp x-ray are bound to be treated like animals (but without any of the rights we allow most animals), by animals.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[shedao 0]

Quote

How can you people even not think that these terrorism deal is not a big deal. I don't get it, for one it seems that philkev is more concerned about the legal implications about DRUGS into the terrorism laws (not surprisingly), and mikkey, well, he is just too perfect and cultured for us on the hemisphere....

I think the point is that the Costitution is being violated. It's not about dealing with terrorism, it's about getting a fair trial, something that is clearly stated in the Constitution. Or is it "fair for me but fuck you because I said so and you are a towel head"? Even the biggest piece of shit has a right to a trial. If you don't like that then tough shit. Someone has to stand up and say "hold on".

Questioning government is VERY American.

[wmw999 2,146]

What he said. What Amazon said. It's only the constitution if it applies to the people I disagree with as well as those I agree with.

Because out there, there are people who disagree with me.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 1,646]

Quote

I guess the US learned something from the N. Vietnamese after all. They held our "POW's" for many years in some cases without even letting us know who they had... those evil commie bastards called them Air Pirates and criminals. We constantly protested.. and our guys greatest accomplishment was to just to be KNOWN to be a prisoner.

Here we are many years later.. doing something similar.

Jeanne

What goes around comes around. Sooner or later (probably sooner) the US will regret the way this administration is behaving.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[goose491 0]

Quote

I think the point is that the Costitution is being violated. It's not about dealing with terrorism, it's about getting a fair trial, something that is clearly stated in the Constitution. Or is it "fair for me but fuck you because I said so and you are a towel head"? Even the biggest piece of shit has a right to a trial. If you don't like that then tough shit. Someone has to stand up and say "hold on".

HERE HERE!!!

Well put.

Quote

Questioning government is VERY American.

Oh hell yeah! Isn't that the number one reason/excuse for all the gun-crasyness in the States? Isn't the possible 'overthrowing' of a government gone villainous, by the people it governs, like the reason for the amendment which allows Heston to say: "You can have my gun, when you pry it from my cold dead hands."

lol

Hate and fear your goverment, until the rest of the world does too... then you back them up.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[shedao 0]

Quote

I would like you to show me ANY photographic evidence that we do not have the cleanest, most civil jails, prisons, or detention centers in the world

Well we have to.. we have the most people in prison. They are all brand new because the rate of incarceration is ever increasing. It seems that finding the root cause of crime or rehabilitation has taken a back seat to "getting tough on crime" for the sake of politics.

Something else has to be done to stop the increasing rate of incarceration because the current scheme isn't working. 2 million people are currently in the US prison system. This is higher than any other country including Russia and China, one a country emerging from totalitarian rule and the other still under totalitarian rule.

I'm not saying get rid of jails or set them all free, that's ridiculous. But something has to be done. When a system doesn't work you need to change it.

[lawrocket 3]

How are ya, mark! Long time no see (of course, this is my fault because of my move).

I can agree that there are numerous people and other forces that would have simply killed them all. I know that there are a number of military men who would have loved the opportunity to martyr them.

Nevertheless, the reason why so many surrender to the US is the knowledge that they will not be harmed. One of the reasons the US is a dominant force in the world is that we are one of the only forces wherein surrender to them would likely give better living conditions. We'll feed them, house them and provide medical care.

The American way is not to kill these people wholesale. We encourage surrender (which works to our benefit) by letting them know they'll do fine with us.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

for one it seems that philkev is more concerned about the legal implications about DRUGS into the terrorism laws (not surprisingly)

As usual, you missed the point. That being that the administration is using terrorism as an excuse to create loopholes in the law and bypass constitutional rights. You love accusing me of being a drug addict, even though I'm not, just because I'm outspoken about the drug laws being used to control the population. Keep living in your brain washed little world and only caring about issues that effect you directly. Lack of empathy is the definition of evil.