POV cameras and Jump number.

[aarco 0]

There are many systems and technology sets used in military aviation that are used start and stop in the sky,, the functional system map placed under and the gear type and action has to fill that first map,
a camera is a camera ,, a coach is a coach,, the gear is supposed to make you safe, training, safer,, better,, a camera built in with the altimeter, , awesome, , hud glasses, cool,, helmet radio with no contact surface second camera, right on,, 3dr sensor nods in the harness and jump suit,, I can see more I can know more,, I can do more,, I pad computer pre and post flight review, , slow motion,, funny how so few master jump something old who evers out theres,, have. !,, never,,,, researched , the. Company. The point. In time,, ,, wizard of oz,, to set back the sawing machine ,,, go to the plane of it,,, reverse engineering the
sports actual sweet hog moment, and to say, what would be different on this day,,, who would still be alive,,, and who would value death,, you cant lie to yourself, , you can try, but you'll just stick out like a hurt thumb,,

Having something never beats doing (>|<)
Iam building things - Iam working on my mind- I am going to change this world - its what I came here 4- - -

[mcordell 2]

aarco

There are many systems and technology sets used in military aviation that are used start and stop in the sky,, the functional system map placed under and the gear type and action has to fill that first map,
a camera is a camera ,, a coach is a coach,, the gear is supposed to make you safe, training, safer,, better,, a camera built in with the altimeter, , awesome, , hud glasses, cool,, helmet radio with no contact surface second camera, right on,, 3dr sensor nods in the harness and jump suit,, I can see more I can know more,, I can do more,, I pad computer pre and post flight review, , slow motion,, funny how so few master jump something old who evers out theres,, have. !,, never,,,, researched , the. Company. The point. In time,, ,, wizard of oz,, to set back the sawing machine ,,, go to the plane of it,,, reverse engineering the
sports actual sweet hog moment, and to say, what would be different on this day,,, who would still be alive,,, and who would value death,, you cant lie to yourself, , you can try, but you'll just stick out like a hurt thumb,,

Are you high?

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[keithbar 1]

mcordell

***There are many systems and technology sets used in military aviation that are used start and stop in the sky,, the functional system map master jump something old who evers out theres,, have. !,, never,,,, researched , the. Company. you can try, but you'll just stick out like a hurt thumb,,

Are you high? he is most definitely cryptic

i have on occasion been accused of pulling low . My response. Naw I wasn't low I'm just such a big guy I look closer than I really am .

[gunver79 0]

From an outside perspective it seems that the SIM itself leads the discussion into a problematic direction by suggesting that there is a jump number or skill level (C licence) at which you can just add a camera to everything you've been doing previously and you're good.

The German system requires you to get ground training and at least 6 check dives (2 flying relative to a motive without camera gear, 2 with only camera gear but no motive, 2 with motive and full gear). Among the requirements to get this training are proficiency in the discipline you're about to film, a licence and 100 jumps (50 of which during the last 12 month).
I am not a camera flyer nor will I be anytime soon, so I can argue only based on assumptions here. But the least that the German approach does is minimizing the discussion about requirements for jumping with a camera. If you really want to put in the necessary effort and jumps to learn how to camera fly, go find an instructor or a professional camera person who is willing to work with you and start learning. The only thing that's not allowed at any skill level is to simply strap a camera to your helmet and think that's all there's to it*. A thought which is indirectly forwarded by the American SIM, even though the suggested skill level is rather high.

*(although I assume that in the 1000+ jumps region this is not really policed/enforced by most DZOs in Germany)

[BornToThrill 0]

Can a 18 year old who just received their drivers license own and drive a Lamborghini? Can a 200lb roughly new jumper buy and jump a Stiletto 150? Yes. Should they? Probably not. But then again, these are RECOMMENDATIONS.

At the end of the day, most of these things discussed don't actually directly affect anyone but the user. Sure, there are special and circumstantial cases but the responsibility and risk lie with the user.

You guys don't have to attack or belittle this dude for a post or comment. Thats what this forum is for.

JWest, don't be discouraged or let some of these comments bring you down. Have fun and be safe bro!

[Joellercoaster 6]

BornToThrill

At the end of the day, most of these things discussed don't actually directly affect anyone but the user. Sure, there are special and circumstantial cases but the responsibility and risk lie with the user.

I really wish that was true. I'd have a lot less to say about it if it were.

(Not belittling, just disagreeing completely.)

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[JWest 0]

I'm not panning to jump a camera anytime soon. I have no reason too. I was just curious how people would respond. The DZ circle jerk came in force as expected.

[mik 2]

JWest

I'm not panning to jump a camera anytime soon. I have no reason too. I was just curious how people would respond. The DZ circle jerk came in force as expected.

I have no idea what "circle jerk" is (American English is not my first language) but does this mean that you got responses from experienced people that you don't like because they did not confirm that its ok to do what you are (secretly perhaps) planning to do irrespective of the advice given? Because you have mad skilz, perhaps?

***********************************************
I'm NOT totally useless... I can be used as a bad example

[JWest 0]

Not at all. A circle jerk is like, saying the same thing just to say it because everyone else does. The only issues I have with some of the answers I received here is when I worded questions to have only one logical answer. When the the answer received is the same as previous statements the answerer clearly disregarded the question to state the same thing over again and/or is stuck in that form of thinking.

Example question. In regards to a camera posing a distraction hazard only, would you rather jump with a person with 200 jumps participating in their first camera jump or would you rather jump with a person with 200 jumps participating in their 100th camera jump.

It's a loaded question. The person with 99 camera jumps is generally going to be less distracted by the camera as apposed to the person with 0 camera jumps. If someone says the answer is the person with o camera jumps they are either naive or stuck saying the same thing because "the SIM suggests it" hence it being a circle jerk, saying the same thing over and aver just to say it.

Using the term "mad skillz" in that way it could also be considered a circle jerk.

I'll say it again, I probably won't wait for a certain number of jumps to put on a camera. I will leave that decision up to my DZO and the instructors and coaches I jump with. It could be before 200 it could be after. I'll trust their judgment over a suggestion in a manual.


Edit: here is a definition of circle jerk thats basically how I use it. "A group discussion or activity between like-minded individuals that validates mutual biases or goals in a non-confrontational environment."

[Baksteen 84]

Quote

Example question. In regards to a camera posing a distraction hazard only, would you rather jump with a person with 200 jumps participating in their first camera jump or would you rather jump with a person with 200 jumps participating in their 100th camera jump.

It's a loaded question. The person with 99 camera jumps is generally going to be less distracted by the camera as apposed to the person with 0 camera jumps. If someone says the answer is the person with o camera jumps they are either naive or stuck saying the same thing because "the SIM suggests it" hence it being a circle jerk, saying the same thing over and aver just to say it.

Not loaded at all, really. I'd rather jump with the first person. They may be only starting out camera, but they have spent 100 extra jumps building up skills they can use when stuff goes sideways.
In your line of reasoning the second person strapped on a camera with merely 100 jumps under their belt.

By that lline of reasoning you might as well give a camera to someone with 50 or twenty jumps - or even before their first AFF/SL jump - "because they don't know any better than jumping with camera, they will not be distracted by it".

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[mcordell 2]

That is NOT what circle jerk means.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[wasatchrider 0]

Yeah I thought a circle jerk was when a bunch of dudes stand in a circle and jerk each other off

BASE 1519

[mcordell 2]

wasatchrider

Yeah I thought a circle jerk was when a bunch of dudes stand in a circle and jerk each other off

And THAT folks is what a circle jerk is.....although it is a little bit funny to give a different definition and send people out into the world using the phrase in every day conversation...

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[ufk22 33]

mcordell

***Yeah I thought a circle jerk was when a bunch of dudes stand in a circle and jerk each other off

And THAT folks is what a circle jerk is.....although it is a little bit funny to give a different definition and send people out into the world using the phrase in every day conversation...The meaning translates to "I'll do (say) what makes you feel good if you do (say) what makes me feel good". Agreement for the sake of agreement, not for the sake of truth.
Not exactly what happens here.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[ufk22 33]

JWest

The only issues I have with some of the answers I received here is when I worded questions to have only one logical answer.

No, what you are doing is presenting what can be called "false choices."

JWest

When the the answer received is the same as previous statements the answerer clearly disregarded the question to state the same thing over again and/or is stuck in that form of thinking.

Example question. In regards to a camera posing a distraction hazard only, would you rather jump with a person with 200 jumps participating in their first camera jump or would you rather jump with a person with 200 jumps participating in their 100th camera jump. ***Here is the false choice, because although the choice of 0 camera jumps is counter-intuitive, the choice of 100 camera jumps implies approval of starting to jump with a camera at 100 jumps or less

***It's a loaded question. The person with 99 camera jumps is generally going to be less distracted by the camera as apposed to the person with 0 camera jumps. If someone says the answer is the person with o camera jumps they are either naive or stuck saying the same thing because "the SIM suggests it" hence it being a circle jerk, saying the same thing over and over just to say it.
Using the term "mad skillz" in that way it could also be considered a circle jerk.

Or, both replies could just mean those of us with a lot more experience have heard all this before, and see in this whole line of reasoning a recurring pattern

JWest

I'll say it again, I probably won't wait for a certain number of jumps to put on a camera. I will leave that decision up to my DZO and the instructors and coaches I jump with. It could be before 200 it could be after. I'll trust their judgment over a suggestion in a manual.


Edit: here is a definition of circle jerk thats basically how I use it. "A group discussion or activity between like-minded individuals that validates mutual biases or goals in a non-confrontational environment."

In the end, it appears that your issue is that no one has taken hold of your appendage to pleasure you.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[PixieUK 0]

JWest

Not at all. A circle jerk is like, saying the same thing just to say it because everyone else does. The only issues I have with some of the answers I received here is when I worded questions to have only one logical answer. When the the answer received is the same as previous statements the answerer clearly disregarded the question to state the same thing over again and/or is stuck in that form of thinking.

Example question. In regards to a camera posing a distraction hazard only, would you rather jump with a person with 200 jumps participating in their first camera jump or would you rather jump with a person with 200 jumps participating in their 100th camera jump.

It's a loaded question. The person with 99 camera jumps is generally going to be less distracted by the camera as apposed to the person with 0 camera jumps. If someone says the answer is the person with o camera jumps they are either naive or stuck saying the same thing because "the SIM suggests it" hence it being a circle jerk, saying the same thing over and aver just to say it.

Your argument is actually illogical if you read the replies of the experienced guys (like, thousands of jumps, not just hundreds) where they state that it is easily possible to be distracted by camera whatever your experience level, that any experience level can attempt to just 'switch it on and forget it' but in practice that often doesn't happen. The difference in jump numbers is the experience gained in how to deal with unexpected circumstances when things go wrong. I am nowhere near jumping camera and don't actually have any particular desire to do so yet anyway, but I would also prefer to jump with the 200 jump person doing their first camera jump. Experience with a camera is not going to save your life if something goes wrong, experience with canopy control might

A mind once stretched by a new idea never regains its original dimensions - Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr

[Scrumpot 1]

JWest

I'm not panning to jump a camera anytime soon. I have no reason too. I was just curious how people would respond. The DZ circle jerk came in force as expected.

Self-Admitted troll.

We'll keep this in mind when considering to respond (or not) to future inquiries now as well, accordingly.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[wolfriverjoe 1,480]

JWest

...Example question. In regards to a camera posing a distraction hazard only, would you rather jump with a person with 200 jumps participating in their first camera jump or would you rather jump with a person with 200 jumps participating in their 100th camera jump.

It's a loaded question. The person with 99 camera jumps is generally going to be less distracted by the camera as apposed to the person with 0 camera jumps. If someone says the answer is the person with o camera jumps they are either naive or stuck saying the same thing because "the SIM suggests it"...

You're ignoring the very basic fact that the person who already has 100 camera jumps at 200 jumps has decided that they are "better" than everyone else, and that "recommendations" don't need to be followed.

That overall attitude towards safety is far, far more dangerous than having the camera on their head.

Do you think they wrote those recommendations for the fun of it?
Do you think that they had no reason, that the "200" is just an arbitrary number?

Have you ever heard the phrase "these rules are written in blood"?

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[jclalor 12]

I wonder if there will ever be a point in time, when every public movement is so expected and is so routinely recorded, that jumping with a camera, will not be considered anything but the norm.

Perhaps being distracted when one has low numbers, while wearing a camera, is generational?

[JWest 0]

I fully understand and trust what the experienced people have said. However that does not change my question. I asked a very specific question, with only one variable. In the context of the question nothing else matters besides the level of possible distraction. I think we can agree that it is illogical to want to jump with someone who has a higher probability of being distracted. That makes the only logical conclusion to jump with the person with more camera jumps because the chance that the camera is going to distract them is less than the person using it for the first time.

[mark 107]

JWest

I fully understand and trust what the experienced people have said. However that does not change my question. I asked a very specific question, with only one variable. In the context of the question nothing else matters besides the level of possible distraction. I think we can agree that it is illogical to want to jump with someone who has a higher probability of being distracted. That makes the only logical conclusion to jump with the person with more camera jumps because the chance that the camera is going to distract them is less than the person using it for the first time.

In other words, you asked a question for which you already had an answer; you were not asking for information. What exactly was your intention?

Mark

[Trafficdiver 8]

Why are you afraid to put your name, location and stats in your profile? Want me to guess?

[GoHuskers 0]

I'm a proponent of having a camera course. The current system places no emphasis whatsoever on what you should do once you've reached 200 jumps and are ready to bolt, glue, velcro, ziptie, tie, rubberband or tape a camera to your helmet. The fact that I mentioned all those methods of mounting a camera should be proof enough that we need a course for jumping camera's.

There are plenty of great skydiving professionals that could teach a high quality course, earn a little weather-hold income, and probably save jumpers money in the long run vs replacing camera's and helmets, and reserve repacks.

[JWest 0]

The intent is to gather information about the answerer. If they pick the guy with no camera jumps just because he went by the "SIM recommendations" they are just saying that to say it. Like being stuck in their way, kind of like an elderly person who won't change because they have been doing the same thing for so long.

Another skydiving example is the performance canopy definition in the SIM <=150sqf. The person says a newer jumper -say 100 jumps- should never use a high performance canopy because that is what the sim says. Since the SIM says it they will never say its ok for a 95lb girl to use a specter 150. Not starting that discussion its just a good example.


I'm not afraid to post my name and location, I created this account so I could use the classifieds.

[Hellis 0]

I have no real knowledge of this but I believe that snake handlers don't start with green mambas and similar snakes in the middle of the jungle far from any help.

Question to you: Would you rather have handled non deadly snakes 200 times or less than 100 times before you gave it a try, or maybe you like to give it a try on the first?

There can't be any laws saying you are not allowed, only guidelines that it's probably not a good idea.