POV cameras and Jump number.

[Di0 1]

skyjumpenfool

Plus, experienced (Thousands of jumps) instructors have had an eye on you if you've earned a C license. A C license demonstrates some level of proficiency. 200 jumps....not so much?

Meh, not so sure, for the most part it's about having the requirements, which are simple (a couple dozens accuracy landings left to the jumper to log honestly, a couple of 2-points 8 ways, a quiz and the jump number), I have never heard (but I could be wrong) of somebody refusing to sign the proficiency card of a jumper that satisfied all of those because "they felt he didn't have enough proficiency for a C license". In my opinion, the minimum common denominator is the jump number.

That being said, 200 jumps to fly a camera? Let's be real, that's about a year into the sport for somebody that takes it seriously. At that point you are probably not even done buying all your gear, so getting a camera setup at 200 jumps is kind of a natural progression IMHO, let alone the safety discussion it even makes sense that you buy other, and more useful stuff, in your first year.

IMHO.

From what I've seen in my limited experience, 200 jumps is about right. Make it 150 and people will ask why 150, make it 250 and people will ask why 250, leave 200 and people will ask why leaving it at 200.
It's a reference number and the line must be drawn somewhere, it's not even worth it to try to make a personal argument out of it and bring in "personal skills" on the table: if it was a jump number so high to be impractical to reach in a reasonable time, if that took years, yeah, I would get that. In the youtube era people get frustrated.

But 200 jumps? Really?
It's like ~20-30 good weekends of jumping. A 6 to 8 months window. It's a very controllable itch.
Do them, focus, learn, then jump camera. Or not.

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[JWest 0]

You mistyped in your second paragraph somewhere.

200 jumps may be easy for some of you, but us at Cessna/weekend DZs this really is 2-3 years. could be less If you have the money to jump more and a job/weather that never interferes.

[Lukske 0]

+1

Do or do not, there is no try

[phoenixlpr 0]

JWest

You mistyped in your second paragraph somewhere.

200 jumps may be easy for some of you, but us at Cessna/weekend DZs this really is 2-3 years. could be less If you have the money to jump more and a job/weather that never interferes.

Than you got your rest of life for shooting skydiving videos.

You should not use a camera if you are not current anyway.

[Trafficdiver 8]

JWest

You mistyped in your second paragraph somewhere.

200 jumps may be easy for some of you, but us at Cessna/weekend DZs this really is 2-3 years. could be less If you have the money to jump more and a job/weather that never interferes.

200 jumps is not easy for anyone.

Just because you jump at a small dz that can't turn as many loads does not mean the USPA should change the rules.

I stopped using my camera for a couple of reasons. 1.) I am learning fast stuff, flying at steep angles or HD and I don't need it. What I need is to focus on the jump and get better. The camera does not help that. My friends cameras do, so I just watch theirs. 2.) I have shitloads of old video that does nothing for me. It justs sits there. I have no idea about editing and won't be making that cool movie anytime soon, so it's a waste.

If I start helping out newbies in the future I may put it back on. Til then, I'm just going to jump and hopefully get better without the death part.

[DougH 270]

JWest

You mistyped in your second paragraph somewhere.

200 jumps may be easy for some of you, but us at Cessna/weekend DZs this really is 2-3 years. could be less If you have the money to jump more and a job/weather that never interferes.

Sorry, nope. It is easy even at a most cesna dz's that aren't total tandem factories.

If you can't get the jumps, have too many things holding you back, then you shouldn't be flying a camera.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[JWest 0]

I think you guys got confused again. I didn't make this thread to somehow justify jumping a camera before 200 jumps. It wouldn't matter anyway, my DZ doesn't follow the C-License recommendation. It is totally up to the DZO/Instructors. There is a guy with over 200 jumps that they wouldn't let near a camera. There is also a guy who was a speed flyer/paraglider with a decent amount of tunnel time and they let him use a camera around jump 100. I personally don't need to jump a camera because my footage would be mostly useless. I use my friends video to learn from since I'm the new guy. I simply wanted to know if a misrepresented recommendation (200 jumps when it is really a C-license) was more important to people than that jumpers instructors/coaches/SA&T opinion.

I found that answer to de a definite "YES" because "Mad Skilz" doesn't mean you are ready. But this is DZ.com where half of everything turn into a jump number pissing contest, so I wasn't surprised.

[The111 0]

JWest

I think you guys got confused again. I didn't make this thread to somehow justify jumping a camera before 200 jumps.

Yes, you did. You've just changed your mind and therefore the thread's "purpose" multiple times in its run. It easy to understand if readers end up confused. And frankly your intent is irrelevant to the points presented.

Also, 200 jumps in 2+ years is less than 1 jump per week. To say that even the world's smallest Cessna DZ can't do better than that is insane.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Di0 1]

JWest

I think you guys got confused again. I didn't make this thread to somehow justify jumping a camera before 200 jumps.[...] I simply wanted to know if a misrepresented recommendation (200 jumps when it is really a C-license) [...]

Yes, it's *us all* who are confused.

JWest

'There are a couple people who have less than 200 jumps who wear POV cameras at my DZ. [...]

Now I do think the 200 jump guideline is a good thing.[...] There are people with fewer than 200 jumps who are mentally capable to handle a camera and there are people with more than 200 jumps who are not capable. This decision should be left up to the DZO,or DZ safety person. [...]

The mentality I see towards jumpers with less than 200 jumps using a camera is part of the problem. [...]
I will probably wear a camera before 200 jumps and I will do it safely.

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[JeffCa 0]

DougH

Sorry, nope. It is easy even at a most cesna dz's that aren't total tandem factories.

The111

Also, 200 jumps in 2+ years is less than 1 jump per week. To say that even the world's smallest Cessna DZ can't do better than that is insane.

The111 should check the math again.

It can be very difficult to get 100+ jumps in a year. Try jumping in Japan. We only have a small number of jumpers each year who break the 100-jump mark, most of those just barely pass it (I think about 15 did 100+, with only 2 doing 150+). Combine a mainly weekend-only DZ, limited loads due to airport rules, too many fun jumpers for our load capacity, and shitty climate, and it gets tough. I worked really hard last year just to get in 90 jumps.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

[The111 0]

JeffCa

The111 should check the math again.

Only off by 2.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[lyosha 46]

JWest

But this is DZ.com where half of everything turn into a jump number pissing contest, so I wasn't surprised.

This is DZ.com, where the prevailing opinion of the populace forgets the adage that more rules create a greater illusion of safety, the only reason anyone would ever want to fly a camera is "mad skillz" or videotaping tandems, and education is frowned upon in favor of brute force restriction.

[skyjumpenfool 2]

lyosha

***But this is DZ.com where half of everything turn into a jump number pissing contest, so I wasn't surprised.

This is DZ.com, where the prevailing opinion of the populace forgets the adage that more rules create a greater illusion of safety, the only reason anyone would ever want to fly a camera is "mad skillz" or videotaping tandems, and education is frowned upon in favor of brute force restriction.

Not sure I buy that? This (DZ.com) is like anywhere else... It's really not hard to cut thru the bullshit. Anyone with an open mind can find the truth. Also, If you read everything, the BS tends to shake itself out.

I consider myself a student of the sport. I learn a lot here! If you come here "already knowing", Then you're statement above is probably correct.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[JWest 0]

Am I confused? The post you quoted is from before I read the SIM. I took the experienced guys word for it. I was wrong to do so and upon reading the SIM I discovered that the recommendation is a C-license not simply 200 jumps. It is good because it gives people a goal to shoot for. Yes I did say that I will probably wear a camera before 200 jumps. I don't need to justify it. When I want to do it I will ask my instructors. If they ok it than I will jump it. I don't clam to know a lot, there is a tremendous amount I can learn and would like to learn.

I really don't want to get into jumping at small DZ because its a ridiculous thing to argue over unless you have done it. 182 DZ open for 6 months of the year, 24 jumping weekends, 5 jumps a weekend on average, 120 jumps with perfect weather. That doesn't happen and probably maybe get a little better than half of the weekends. 50-60 jumps is pretty average for people at my DZ. Some people don't understand really small DZ. basically 2 tandem loads then a fun load. Not even including AFF loads. With only 4 people per load you can't get that many jumps in.

[mik 2]

*** Yes I did say that I will probably wear a camera before 200 jumps. I don't need to justify it. When I want to do it I will ask my instructors. If they ok it than I will jump it. I don't clam to know a lot, there is a tremendous amount I can learn and would like to learn.

Here we see your attitude changing from your initial posts. A bit. Before you claimed you would jump with camera at less than 200 jumps, safely - implying that you knew more that all the others who suggest it might not be a great idea.

I wish guys like yourself would come back to your posts when you have 7-8 years in the sport or a thousand jumps or so and then tell us whether you still have the same views. It might just help the new jumpers who also think they are somehow special and therefore the existing rules should not apply to them.

***********************************************
I'm NOT totally useless... I can be used as a bad example

[mcordell 2]

The111

***The111 should check the math again.

Only off by 2.

Are there still only 52 weeks in a year or did that change? By my math, 1 jump a week for 2 years would be 104 jumps. By your math it would take 3 years and 10 months to get 200 jumps and that's assuming there's no bad weather.

That is unless we have changed to a 100 week year. Maybe you were using metric weeks?

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[The111 0]

mcordell

That is unless we have changed to a 100 week year. Maybe you were using metric weeks?

2 * 50 = 100.

Off by 2.

The point I made still stands, be it 1 jump per week or 2 jumps per week, either is an extremely low goal even for a cessna DZ. And more importantly, it's still irrelevant to the greater conversation. The number of loads your DZ turns does not affect the skill required to fly a camera.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[mcordell 2]

The111

***That is unless we have changed to a 100 week year. Maybe you were using metric weeks?

2 * 50 = 100.

Off by 2.

The point I made still stands, be it 1 jump per week or 2 jumps per week, either is an extremely low goal even for a cessna DZ. And more importantly, it's still irrelevant to the greater conversation. The number of loads your DZ turns does not affect the skill required to fly a camera.

You are right, the number of loads a DZ flies has nothing to do with the skill required to jump a camera. That being said, since you made the point about jump numbers and acquiring them at small dzs, I disagree. Jumping an AVERAGE of 2 jumps per week at a small cessna dz is not an extremely low goal.

Let's take the standard (non-metric ) 52 week year. Based on weather in the midwest, a jump season may be March through December if you are being liberal. That eliminates at a minimum 2 months from the equation. For simplicity sake, lets call that 8 weeks. Now you are left with 44 weeks. Taking into account both weekend days (since most small cessna DZs are Sat/Sun operations) that is 88 days. If you remove 15% of those days for bad weather (just a random percentage...it'd probably be higher) you are left with 75 days out of the year to jump. You would have to average 1.3 jumps per day on every jumpable day. Every...single...jumpable day.

That doesn't seem like much until you take into account having a life outside skydiving. For those of us that have a family or, god forbid, children that we want to actually spend time with on the weekend, or marriages we enjoy and don't want to flush away because we spend all our time and money at the DZ, we may be lucky to get 1 of those 2 weekend days to jump. Now we have to average 2.6 jumps per day if we are going one day every single weekend.

At a small single cessna DZ that prioritizes tandems, since they pay the bills, you may have to wait hours between loads depending on the number of up-jumpers. 2.6 jumps per trip to the DZ starts to look like 6-8 hours at the DZ. Then you factor in the fact you may have a family vacation, emergency, event, etc. You start excluding a weekend here or there for other activities and soon you have to make 4 jumps every time you go to the DZ to make your 100 per year. For some that's just not possible.

In my case, with my custody schedule, I can only go to the DZ every other weekend. Since my wife isn't a jumper, I can't spend all day both days at the DZ and still spend time with my wife. It may be easy for some but for others who have lives outside skydiving it's not that simple. I'm lucky to get 50 jumps in a season let alone 100.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[DougH 270]

This has turned into a moronic pissing contest.

It doesn't really matter how little some people get a chance to jump in Japan, or the local single 182 tandem factory. It doesn't really matter if you are collecting cans for jumps, or daddy has shut off your trust fund tap. It doesn't matter if it takes you multiple years because you are off fighting ebola, or you are paying your way through medical school by dancing nights at the local strip club!!!

Who fucking cares why some people take a long time to rack up jumps? It doesn't matter!

On the whole if you aren't making jumps frequently you also aren't gaining experience quickly either! It sucks that it is going to take some people 3+ years to hit 200, or a C license? GOOD!

If it takes them 3 years to hit 200 then they definitely weren't experienced enough at year 1 or 2. They can stick to taking landing photos if they have a photographers itch to scratch!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[lyosha 46]

DougH

if they have a photographers itch to scratch!

Not everyone jumps a GoPro to try to make awesome Youtube videos. Of my ~180 jumps with a GoPro attached to me, exactly one has been for the purpose of videography.

For the rest, my GoPro is the most invaluable self-debriefing tool that I have. And occasionally (1 out of 30-50 jumps or so...) it accidentally captures something interesting enough for me to share with the rest of the world.

[DougH 270]

lyosha

Not everyone jumps a GoPro to try to make awesome Youtube videos. Of my ~180 jumps with a GoPro attached to me, exactly one has been for the purpose of videography.

For the rest, my GoPro is the most invaluable self-debriefing tool that I have. And occasionally (1 out of 30-50 jumps or so...) it accidentally captures something interesting enough for me to share with the rest of the world.

Point being? Motivation has nothing to do with fitness for jumping a camera of any format. Again, who gives a fuck?

Just think, the money spent on a GoPro by a jumper in a rush, that seems to be taking foooooooorever to get their jumps up, could put that money towards tunnel time, or *gasp* skydives! Then they wouldn't need so much "self-debriefing". They just might be better skydivers, and have better jumps!!! Crazy!!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[JohnMitchell 14]

DougH

Point being? Motivation has nothing to do with fitness for jumping a camera of any format. Again, who gives a fuck?

Ahhh, the voice of common sense.

BTW, there is not much my POV camera tells me about my flying. It's mostly there to help other people with their flying. If you really want to get better, jump with better people who video YOU!

[tred 0]

agreed I probably wont jump a camera when I can because of the cost. I would rather go to the tunnel or learn to wing suit.
And every Cessna DZ operates a little differently, it would be easy to get 100jumps in a year at mine because the DZO will slide a fun jumper load into between tandems so we aren't waiting all day.

I honestly believe that with some training I could jump a gopro safely very soon. but people who have been around longer say its not a good Idea so I will listen and I am sure one day I will get it. like I said I wont jump one even when I can because the only video I want is the one on the other guys head.

can someone explain to me how you learn from your own video? (sincere question)

[JeffCa 0]

DougH

This has turned into a moronic pissing contest.

It doesn't really matter how little some people get a chance to jump in Japan, or the local single 182 tandem factory.

If it takes them 3 years to hit 200 then they definitely weren't experienced enough at year 1 or 2. They can stick to taking landing photos if they have a photographers itch to scratch!

Doug, please chill (I count 7 exclamation points in your full comment). At my DZ in Japan, we don't have rules about minimum jumps for camera. In addition, I'm already over 200 jumps and do own a GoPro. Yet I have NEVER jumped with a camera and don't want to. The comments about difficulty getting the jump numbers were an aside to the thread after suggestions were made that it's easy at any DZ in the world and that there must be something wrong with our dedication if we can't get 100 jumps or more per year. I know that to be wrong, so commented. It had nothing to do with cameras and not everybody who takes exception to something in this thread is dying to find an excuse to jump with one. The sensitivity around this topic is pretty severe.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

[JohnnyMarko 1]