POV cameras and Jump number.

[GoHuskers 0]

NWFlyer

the more I want to tell people to just keep your POV camera off your head because for the love of all things good in the world, your footage sucks.

The irony is that some of the best flyers in the sport with the best camera setups film the same jump thousands of times. But jumpers gotta jump, planes gotta fly...

[shotandahalf 0]

I didn't vote because there is not a 500 jump option. Instead of being in a hurry to jump a camera, put some effort into learning to skydive. Skydiving doesn't have to be all about how cool you are, it can be fun also. Just have some fun, learn a little bit and you will some have the ability to make jumps with a little added danger.

[mcordell 2]

JWest

How can you say it's not a learning tool? if someone is wearing a camera and they record you, you can look at that to help learn. AFF programs do it all the time. So does the tunnel.

My decision has actually changed I'll probably wait longer than I would have before this thread existed.

So most important part of this thread. There is no 200 jump recommendation in the SIM! The recommendation is a C licenses. That encompasses so much more than just 200 jumps.

I have to agree though with some others that it doesn't make sense to come here and post this thread. The smarter thing to do would have been to either just follow the sim (which you don't want to do) or not follow the sim and NOT tell everyone on the internet of your intentions. At first I thought you wanted to discuss the validity of the qualification to jump a camera but it seems more and more like you were looking for allies to side with you.

Hope everything works out for you.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[piisfish 135]

If you are not a videoman and don't want to get a shot, then why do you want to jump with a camera ?

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[champu 1]

JWest

I will probably wear a camera before 200 jumps and I will do it safely. I will do it by recognizing that the camera is a distraction and by focusing on the dive. I am not a camera flyer. My job is not to get the shot. The camera is just there to record what ever it records. If it doesn't record anything than who gives a shit. You had a successful skydive.

That lasts right up until the point where you watch your first video and are disappointed with it. You really can't "unsee" your footage and continue to ignore it.

And the problem with comparing to things like skiing or riding sleds is how little experience you get out of one or a few jumps. Think about how much active, mentally-engaged, reflex-building time you get out of a weekend of skiing vs snowmobiling vs skydiving. You wouldn't stop halfway down your first ski run ever and say, "Woo, alright I've got a few minutes of that under my belt, time for a camera!"

[Bluhdow 31]

I made a chart that I think will save everyone a little time in these camera threads. Feel free to use this whenever appropriate.

Apex BASE
#1816

[JWest 0]

I wanted to discuss the validility of the 200 recommendation. I quickly realized that was pointless. Even if I have excellent points and a logical flow I will be shot down by people stuck in their ways. Jumpers are going to jump before 200. I'm trying to make is so they can do it more safe. If you can't prevent it they you should at least help it be done safely.

[Rick 67]

JWest

I wanted to discuss the validility of the 200 recommendation. I quickly realized that was pointless. Even if I have excellent points and a logical flow I will be shot down by people stuck in their ways. Jumpers are going to jump before 200. I'm trying to make is so they can do it more safe. If you can't prevent it they you should at least help it be done safely.

what you don't seem to realize is this has been well thought out by jumpers with much more experience than us and 200 was the minimum number decided on.

why can't you just accept that they know more than you and abide by the recommendation?

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[NWFlyer 2]

Bluhdow

I made a chart that I think will save everyone a little time in these camera threads. Feel free to use this whenever appropriate.

Winner! Maybe we can make it a sticky.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[The111 0]

JWest

Even if I have excellent points and a logical flow I will be shot down by people stuck in their ways.

Skydiving rules/guidelines/best practice are not established through good points and logic; they are established through observation of history, and they are written in blood. This is true for all aviation disciplines and neatly enough even a lot of aeronautical sciences. Sure logic and critical thinking have their place, but reality and experience trump all, and experience often disprove assumptions held by extremely intelligent people.

The irony is that if you're still around and jumping in 10 years, you'll be on the other side of the fence saying "even if I have excellent points and a logical flow, you younger jumpers will shoot me down because you are stuck in your decision to do what you want."

Challenge: survey 50 real people with 5k+ jumps on your question. My guess is all 50 will vote the same; I'd be extremely surprised if even one supported your position. After that, ask yourself which of the following is true:
(1) every single jumper with 5k+ jumps (i.e. the most experienced and talented jumpers in existence) is illogical and stuck in the past
(2) it is possible that they know something you don't, that can only be revealed to you through experience (not hard thinking and logic)

Believing choice (1) above is probably the most illogical thought you could have.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[JWest 0]

Of course the these people know more than me. I don't deny that. This argument Is pointless now. No where in the SIM does it say 200 jumps! 200 jumps is a misnomer.

I could ask 5k+ jumpers a question and they would mostly agree with me. If they did not they would be stuck in there ways.

For the sake of argument lets pretend that the recommendation is 200 jumps. Which has previously been established is incorrect.

Here is the question: Since the recommendation to jump a camera is 200 jumps would you rather have uneducated jumpers with less than 200 jumps using a camera or would you rather have educated jumpers with less then 200 jumps using a camera?

[NWFlyer 2]

JWest

Here is the question: Since the recommendation to jump a camera is 200 jumps would you rather have uneducated jumpers with less than 200 jumps using a camera or would you rather have educated jumpers with less then 200 jumps using a camera?

I'd rather not have my Facebook feed clogged up with lame-ass POV GoPro screen grabs. But that seems unlikely to happen.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[lyosha 46]

I put on a GoPro sometime around jump 70 after I had my first cutaway and regretted not having it on video to try to debrief myself over it. First ~50 jumps of so as a "video logbook" without any intention of videotaping anything of value. Since all footage was "throw away" by default, this kept my attention away from the camera.

I bought a grellfab mount for my G3, which places the camera in the location with the least chance of snagging something, and had a cutaway to boot. I also have worn a hook knife on every jump. As an added benefit of the camera, it is visible from the helmet, so it's less of a distraction ("is it blinking?" is not something I have ever uttered thanks to this mount).

I now have >200 jumps and still use that same mount and that same GoPro. Honestly I see how inconvenient other options are and have no idea why people use them.

I encourage those I feel are responsible enough to attach a camera to themselves in a responsible manner to get used to it before it becomes a distraction. Because most people I see use a GoPro view it as such a privilege that they crave that they completely lose focus in their bliss and desire to play with their new toy.

My $.02

[JWest 0]

NWFlyer

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

It's pretty ironic that this is your signature.

[NWFlyer 2]

JWest

***"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

It's pretty ironic that this is your signature.

No irony that I can see. You're learning the consequences of continuing to whine about camera recommendations.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Bluhdow 31]

JWest

No where in the SIM does it say 200 jumps! 200 jumps is a misnomer.

You are dumb. You are wrong. These things might be correlated.

I've attached a screenshot of the recommendations for jumping with a camera from the SIM. Among the recommended skills are:

1. Ability to handle any emergency easily and without stress. Am I correct in assuming you've already had a few perfectly executed cutaways?

2. Above average freeflying skills. I'm sure you're already a super sick freeflyer since you know how to ski.

3. A USPA C license, which you can obtain ONLY AFTER COMPLETING 200 SKYDIVES.

Do everyone a favor and just go jump your camera. Stop posting here. Nobody cares.

Apex BASE
#1816

[JohnnyMarko 1]

mcstain

Give the Small Format Camera "Incident" list a read if you haven't already: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3894693

+1...I'm on that list and not proud of it. But by sharing, it will hopefully encourage other people without the proper experience to ditch the small camera and focus on the basics til they're ready.

[yoink 321]

JWest

I could ask 5k+ jumpers a question and they would mostly agree with me.
If they did not they would be stuck in their ways.

Talk me thorough this argument, because to me this reads like:

'If a highly experienced jumper doesn't agree with me, they are, by definition, stuck in their ways.'

There is no possibility in your mind that you're wrong, is there?

Your arrogance is unbelievable. You are a poster child for why your own arguments of education don't work.
Because of that fact, we have to treat everyone like they're children and impose arbitrary limits on them... Congrats. You're part of the problem that you're trying to 'solve'.

Quote

For the sake of argument lets pretend that the recommendation is 200 jumps. Which has previously been established is incorrect.

You can't even read the SIM properly, and you're trying to establish that you're correct in changing safety recommendations? As has already been pointed out, most countries either suggest or require at least a C license before jumping camera. That's 200 jumps...

So much of your argument has been based on 'nowhere saying 200 jumps'. Does that change your opinion now? I bet it doesn't...

I ask again, how many jumps do you have, because here's my suspicion. You're not even nearly at the recommendation and trying to skip a few dozen with your mad skillz. You've probably got 40 or 50 jumps, would be my guess.
How far off am I?


From the UK rule book to reinforce the US SIM:

Quote

C Licence

Once you have achieved your B Licence, at least 200 total jumps and one further grade 1 qualification (FS1, FF1 etc.) you can apply for your C Licence. This demonstrates you have achieved a high level of competence in the sport and are now able to begin participating in more demanding disciplines (CP1, SS1 etc). Obtaining a C Licence gives you permission to wear any auxiliary equipment that your Club Chief Instructor (CCI) is happy with, such as camera helmets, etc.

I bet the Dutch regs are equally stringent.

[pchapman 261]

JWest

Here is the question: Since the recommendation to jump a camera is 200 jumps would you rather have uneducated jumpers with less than 200 jumps using a camera or would you rather have educated jumpers with less then 200 jumps using a camera?

I can see that point of view:
But unfortunately there is no standardized first-camera-jump-course , whether in the US or even in the UK (as far as I know), even with all its course requirements for freefall and canopy flight.

In Canada, the cameras requirement is a B license , only 50 jumps minimum, and was reduced from a "C". Compared to a C license (200+ jump) rule, that does help novice coaches and jumpmasters film their students. Whether one likes the rule or not, that is open to debate.

[JWest 0]

The argument for being stuck in your ways is question dependants. The question I purposed only has one correct answer.

Let me ask another question. Would you ratchet jump with someone who has 200 jumps with 150 camera jumps. Or someone with 200 jumps about to do their first camera jump?


I'm not arrogant. You're using that word wrong.

I have read the sun. It says C license. Not 200 jumps. Yes 200 jumps is a prereq for a C license. It is not the only thing.

My jump number is errelivat to this discussion. A discussion that has drifted away from being useful. So I'll try to get it back.


I was told that the recommendation to jump a camera is 200 jumps. I read the SIM and the recommendation is a C license. -yes I undestand that 200 jumps is part of the C license but that is not the same thing-

This makes me much happyer than the 200 recommendation and my opinion has changed.

1. You guys do know more than me.
2. I'm suggesting since the recommendation is only that. A recommendation. Newer jumpers are still going to do it. The best thing experianced jumpers can do to help reduce the number of incidents - besides suggesting to wait till they receive a Clicense- is to educate the newer jumpers on the safest way to oplerate the camera.

[wmw999 2,121]

The other thing is to give newer jumpers enough information to understand why the recommendation really isn't arbitrary. I.e. Thing like suggesting scenarios that the low-timer is unlikely to have thought of, and ask them if they've already considered that scenario.

The "you're ignorant and have to just believe me" approach really isn't the best if there's time for a more comprehensive approach, that gets one thinking.

Your point about someone not being as likely to be distracted if they currently wear a POV camera for everything from shower to sex needs to be considered. But the desire to get good footage is still best satisfied by being able to generate predictable footage first.

When someone says they want to do 4-way video, the first recommendation is generally for them to do a season of 4-way first. Mainly because then there are fewer unpredictable variables.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Krip 2]

Hi JW

You'll have to excuse me for not reading all the posts in this thread.
The problem I have with these polls is why you all leave out the default option.

One Jump Wonder

[craigbey 0]

And you don't even need 200 jumps for boobies.

[JeffCa 0]

Some people at my DZ have been bugging me about why I'm NOT flying a camera since I was at about 120 jumps. Now I'm over 200, have my C, and got the question again the other day. I didn't realise that jumping a camera had become some kind of requirement or strongly-recommended item. Their heads might explode if I tell them I actually do own a GoPro, but choose to not use it for skydiving.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

[champu 1]

JWest

Let me ask another question. Would you ratchet jump with someone who has 200 jumps with 150 camera jumps. Or someone with 200 jumps about to do their first camera jump?

I'd rather jump with the person who is doing their first camera jump and I wouldn't go on more than a 3-way jump with either of them.