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JWest

POV cameras and Jump number.

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DougH

Point being? Motivation has nothing to do with fitness for jumping a camera of any format. Again, who gives a fuck? :D



And jump numbers do? Ability to assess additional risks posed by a piece of equipment and to manage those risks does. Jump numbers do not equate to ability to manage and mitigate risk. Jump numbers equate to jump numbers. I've seen greater correlation from motivation than from jump numbers. Because footage-horny C license holders have 200 jumps behind their belt already and "nothing went wrong in 200 jumps so it must not really matter". Seriously.

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Just think, the money spent on a GoPro by a jumper in a rush, that seems to be taking foooooooorever to get their jumps up, could put that money towards tunnel time, or *gasp* skydives! Then they wouldn't need so much "self-debriefing". They just might be better skydivers, and have better jumps!!! Crazy!! :|:o



A gopro with a reasonable mount for a beginner runs a whopping total of $200, or 8 jumps at most DZs, or about 15 minutes of tunnel time.

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Trafficdiver

Please explain to me how watching your own GoPro video helps you to debrief your own skills?



We finally have hit on the real answer for low-time jumpers.... If you are really interested in improving your skydiving skills, buy a GoPro and have an experienced jumper video you with your camera. Then you can learn something, see first hand what is involved in having a camera on, and have a nice video to show your momma.

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The money comment always get me. "Save the money and use it for jump tickets!" It's 2015 you think 18-20 something year old don't already own at least one gopro? You think athletes and adventurers have never used a gopro for skiing, snowboarding, mountain biking, snowmobiling, white water kayaking, car racing, motorcycle riding, shooting, on their combat helmet, or taking selfies? Seriously, catch up. Chances are you are probably the amature when it comes to using POV cameras because we have been using them since we were teens and preeteens.

Your own footage doesn't really help you debrief yourself. I don't think anyone claimed it did. But -this is not true for my case- at many DZ I've heard that us peasants generally end up jumping together. This way they can learn while jumping together. Just a scenario, throwing it out there.

There have been incidents that involve low time jumpers and if there is a camera present someone will blame it. Even if it is a totally unrelated mal someone will bring up how that jumper shouldn't have had a camera. You could have a low time jumper accidently film extraterrestrial live or Jesus Christ in the flesh and there would still be someone bitching about jump numbers and how they should have the camera.

This thread really has become pointless.Many posters on this site frequently say "take what you read hear lightly and consult your instructor" until it is something they disagree with. The we are clearly wrong for not trusting what they posted.

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JWest

The money comment always get me. "Save the money and use it for jump tickets!" It's 2015 you think 18-20 something year old don't already own at least one gopro? You think athletes and adventurers have never used a gopro for skiing, snowboarding, mountain biking, snowmobiling, white water kayaking, car racing, motorcycle riding, shooting, on their combat helmet, or taking selfies? Seriously, catch up. Chances are you are probably the amature when it comes to using POV cameras because we have been using them since we were teens and preeteens.



Wait, what? Wasn't the GoPro this magical gadget you "turn on and forget it exists" but supernaturally turns you in a professional and seasoned videographer? How can somebody be "amateur" with a GoPRO?

Also, a lot of people at the DZ had to buy a GoPro to mount and their helmets, not all of us give a shit about getting crappy quality selfies with a stick doing stuff that the rest of the world doesn't care about only to post on facebook with "We are heroes" in the background to show how cool we are when we scuba, skii, visit the Taj-Mahal.

Also, your unique skills to videograph your last kayak trip do not necessarily apply when skydiving, when dealing with a reserve bridle around your apparently snag free go pro mount..
I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

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JWest

Am I confused? The post you quoted is from before I read the SIM. I took the experienced guys word for it. I was wrong to do so and upon reading the SIM I discovered that the recommendation is a C-license not simply 200 jumps. It is good because it gives people a goal to shoot for. Yes I did say that I will probably wear a camera before 200 jumps. I don't need to justify it. When I want to do it I will ask my instructors. If they ok it than I will jump it. I don't clam to know a lot, there is a tremendous amount I can learn and would like to learn.

I really don't want to get into jumping at small DZ because its a ridiculous thing to argue over unless you have done it. 182 DZ open for 6 months of the year, 24 jumping weekends, 5 jumps a weekend on average, 120 jumps with perfect weather. That doesn't happen and probably maybe get a little better than half of the weekends. 50-60 jumps is pretty average for people at my DZ. Some people don't understand really small DZ. basically 2 tandem loads then a fun load. Not even including AFF loads. With only 4 people per load you can't get that many jumps in.



The SIM is written in the blood of many whose invulnerability was not up to the ever present "Shit Happens". Do I think everyone who straps on a camera is going to die??? No.....
But I do know people who have died.. trying to get cool video.

The need to upload to your youtube channel of cool video...... may not be conducive to making it to "Skydivers over Sixty" membership. People discover their mortality at different ages. I learned mine early in my twenties. I lost a lot of good friends along that road from then to now. [:/]

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The skills may not but the chance of the camera being a distraction is greatly minimized. The snag hazard is present no matter the jump number. Funny story, I had a gopro mount on my helmet and it actually bugged people because I have less than 200 jumps. It was only there because I was in the process of doing an experiment. I wanted to know how difficult it was to remove a gopro or helmet with a bridal snagged on it. Believe it or not it's pretty easy to sheer off a gopro. If a bridal was wrapped around it ripping it off it quickly achieved.

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lyosha



A gopro with a reasonable mount for a beginner runs a whopping total of $200, or 8 jumps at most DZs, or about 15 minutes of tunnel time.



A "reasonable" mount? Do you mean the snag fests that most jumpers put on a non suitable helmet? That might be 200 dollars with a cheaper older model GoPro.

A newer GoPro, plus a proper mount that isn't as huge of a snag hazard, and a helmet with a proper cutaway is not $200 dollars, but I digress.

Honestly I don't really care what you do, you won't be doing it at my DZ, and you won't be doing it on my loads. But the justification and belly aching on these thread is fucking hilarious.

At the end of the day jump numbers approximate relative experience, it gives us a baseline, and it isn't perfect.

Maybe we should work instead with your standard of ability "to asses additional risked posed by a piece of equipment and to manage those risks"!!! Tell me again, how do we consistently apply that new standard?
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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if you are referring to me looking for justification remember I don't need it. The only thing I need to jump a camera is the desire to do so and the ok from my DZO. I'm close enough to 200 I highly doubt they would care. On top of that waiting to 200 is better than dealing with you people.

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JWest

if you are referring to me looking for justification remember I don't need it. The only thing I need to jump a camera is the desire to do so and the ok from my DZO. I'm close enough to 200 I highly doubt they would care. On top of that waiting to 200 is better than dealing with you people.



No, it wasn't directed at anyone in particular. The justification I am referring is present in all of these type of threads in a 1000 different flavors for why they aren't going to simply wait to get 200 jumps. Maybe it is because they are better than other jumpers, or the requirement is imperfect so they shouldn't be restricted by it, or it is the argument about how hard it is to get to 200 jumps, or a GoPro is different from a regular camera setup and should have different standards, and on and on.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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JWest

I'm close enough to 200 I highly doubt they would care. On top of that waiting to 200 is better than dealing with you people.



YES! ECCE HOMO!
Which was my initial point, it's not even worth to start a big argument, in the life time of this thread some of us did close to 200 jumps and few of us probably more than that.
By the time even a fast learner has acquired the skills to fly a gopro he certainly has close enough to 200 jumps that is simply easier waiting than trying to convince a DZO of how good your mental and physical skills are, and I don't say that sarcastically but just because it's true. Sometimes it seems that people that want to jump a gopro at 160-170-180-190 jumps they do it just for the sake of proving how different they are, rather than "conforming" to a rule that, by the way, saves people.

But I find it funny to open a poll, which is by definition a way to ask for the opinion of people, and when the almost total unison response is what we don't like and is along the line of "200 jumps is a good measure, maybe even too soon" we go mad and decide that it's not worth dealing with *us* people.

Next time don't start a poll if you don't want to deal with us people or if you're not ready for answers you don't like. Start a blog and block the comments.
I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

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lyosha



For the rest, my GoPro is the most invaluable self-debriefing tool that I have.



Specifically, exactly, how? I struggle with understanding how one can "debrief themselves" from their own POV camera. Truly, I'd appreciate learning more.

A video example would be most helpful, with commentary on what you learned from said jump.

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DSE

A video example would be most helpful, with commentary on what you learned from said jump.



+1

"This is the part where the camera was pointed in the same direction as my eyeballs were. From it, I am able to deduce which way I was looking."
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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Yes and no. I agree the usefulness of your own POV is extremely limited for freefall, where it's all about body position, but as I am getting more and more into canopy control, I do sometimes regret not having a gopro to "dissect" those landings that felt/looked good and rather than trying to mentally reconstruct them, I'd love to be able to look at the video and say "Ok, I held my front at that height for about that many seconds, let go and waited that many seconds and then toggles at shoulder level for an instant" etc. etc. etc.
Try to figure out what I do differently on good swoops vs not so good ones (the bad ones, it's usually easy to say what you do wrong lol).

I mean, it's not the only way to debrief yourself and it's not a conclusive tool but it would help, so I do find myself questioning the benefit vs risks of a gopro for this purpose, every once and a while. I honestly haven't reached a conclusion yet. Still wondering. :D
I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

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DougH

A "reasonable" mount? Do you mean the snag fests that most jumpers put on a non suitable helmet? That might be 200 dollars with a cheaper older model GoPro.



Okay, stop. Before you go further go to Chutingstar and have a look around. There are better options, and there are worse options. Most jumpers do make what I would consider to be poor decisions with their GoPros, but this is a direct consequence of the lack of a serious conversation about cameras and camera safety - one that has been substituted for by 200 jump nonsense. Norman Kent's video is a good start, but it seems a decade late.

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Honestly I don't really care what you do, you won't be doing it at my DZ, and you won't be doing it on my loads. But the justification and belly aching on these thread is fucking hilarious.



I have a C license.

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At the end of the day jump numbers approximate relative experience, it gives us a baseline, and it isn't perfect.

Maybe we should work instead with your standard of ability "to asses additional risked posed by a piece of equipment and to manage those risks"!!! Tell me again, how do we consistently apply that new standard?



Through education and confirmation? Instead of jump numbers gauge attitude and ability? I remember DSE making similar pleas with regards to wingsuit flying after a recent fatality.

Having someone else videotape you is of course better, but in absence of this, videotaping yourself can be very informative. For an example, consider trying to videotape your body position in a track (angle camera down) or wingsuit flight.

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>200 jumps may be easy for some of you, but us at Cessna/weekend DZs this really
>is 2-3 years.

That's a good thing. That means less current people get longer to learn from others before they increase the riskiness of their jumps.

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>It's 2015 you think 18-20 something year old don't already own at least one gopro?

They might. They also might own an MP3 player or a surfboard. It would be a mistake to take those things on a skydive too (at least until they have the experience to handle them.)

>You think athletes and adventurers have never used a gopro for skiing, snowboarding,
>mountain biking, snowmobiling, white water kayaking, car racing, motorcycle riding,
>shooting, on their combat helmet, or taking selfies? Seriously, catch up.

You think that taking selfies has anything to do with the ability to safely do video in freefall? Seriously? Make some jumps.

>There have been incidents that involve low time jumpers and if there is a camera
>present someone will blame it.

If they say "they were trying to get the shot?" Or if they were so wrapped up in their Gopro that they forgot their chest strap? Absolutely.

>You could have a low time jumper accidently film extraterrestrial live or Jesus Christ in
>the flesh and there would still be someone bitching about jump numbers and how they
>should have the camera.

If they videoed Jesus until impact - yes.

>This thread really has become pointless.Many posters on this site frequently say "take
>what you read hear lightly and consult your instructor" until it is something they
>disagree with.

And conversely, many people say "I am all for safety" until the issue of cameras comes up. Then they claim that they are exceptional, and since they have taken selfies they'll be fine with a camera at 20 jumps.

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DougH

This has turned into a moronic pissing contest.

It doesn't really matter how little some people get a chance to jump in Japan, or the local single 182 tandem factory. It doesn't really matter if you are collecting cans for jumps, or daddy has shut off your trust fund tap. It doesn't matter if it takes you multiple years because you are off fighting ebola, or you are paying your way through medical school by dancing nights at the local strip club!!!

Who fucking cares why some people take a long time to rack up jumps? It doesn't matter!

On the whole if you aren't making jumps frequently you also aren't gaining experience quickly either! It sucks that it is going to take some people 3+ years to hit 200, or a C license? GOOD!

If it takes them 3 years to hit 200 then they definitely weren't experienced enough at year 1 or 2. They can stick to taking landing photos if they have a photographers itch to scratch!



My response had nothing to do with the suitability of anyone to jump any equipment. I was responding to the statement that it takes 2 years at 1 jump a weekend to get 200 jumps. The math was flawed. I was also explaining why 200 jumps is not an easy benchmark for some people. This sport has a habit of ostracizing people who don't devote all weekend every weekend to the DZ. I wanted to point out that some jumpers have lives outside skydiving and it's not a small accomplishment to get that number of jumps.

Based on your enthusiastic use of the exclamation mark in your response it seems you got quite worked up. It's ok. Take a breath and re-read my post. I never said any of that justified using a camera early. In fact I agree there should be a benchmark of experience that is required to jump a camera. I'm fine with the C license requirement. You'll also notice I have a C license. I do jump a camera (sometimes). I meet the requirements and am quite current. The camera is really a great tool for debriefing a student. I don't see much use in debriefing myself with it but being able to show someone exactly what they were doing on a jump so you can critique them and help them improve is invaluable.
www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

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DSE

***

For the rest, my GoPro is the most invaluable self-debriefing tool that I have.



Specifically, exactly, how? I struggle with understanding how one can "debrief themselves" from their own POV camera. Truly, I'd appreciate learning more. A video example would be most helpful, with commentary on what you learned from said jump.

Douglas, I'm going to respond to your post, but my comments are to everyone. I have been thinking about experienced level and the use of cameras for quite some time.

Please note that I will not address the dangers of skydiving with these devices, but am simply trying to explain how they are thought of by some younger jumpers.

About a year ago I communicated with another younger jumper who posted about small format cameras, and he too received quite a lot of grief from experienced jumpers. However, what I learned from him was that newer/younger jumpers view small format cameras differently that many of us older people do.

Many of us think of video during a skydive (both freefall and canopy flight) as a tool to use to evaluate performance (in a "debrief"). Indeed it is good for that. In fact, so good that many of us cannot imagine why a person would want to take a camera along unless it was used for such a purpose.

However, we now have a generation of people that do not necessarily assume that use for their cameras. Cell phones with built-in cameras, and small format cameras are so common that many people wonder why we would not want to use them as often as we can. To them, it is not about the quality of the video.

In many cases, the "debrief" that they are referring to is simply use as an "event logger", reminding them of what happened on the skydive, not necessarily showing it, or using it to evaluate performance. It is a way of getting "more for their money" by being able to re-live the jump.

Skydiving has managed to become rather expensive, so getting as much for their money makes sense to them.

(Once again, I am not discussing the dangers.)

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peek


In many cases, the "debrief" that they are referring to is simply use as an "event logger", reminding them of what happened on the skydive, not necessarily showing it, or using it to evaluate performance. It is a way of getting "more for their money" by being able to re-live the jump.


I think you may be on to something. I knew one guy who handmounted a camera so he could do selfie video on belly jumps. He kept f-ing things up because he was trying to get certain shots as he docked, flew, etc. I think someone gave him the word to ditch it 'cause it's gone now. :P

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BillVon you managed to take every one one those paragraphs out of context. The amount of jumps was in rebuttal to someone saying that it is easy to get 200 jumps in a year. Saying most people have a gopro was a rebuttal to people who keep saying "save the money and buy jump tickets." Neither of them have anything to do with jumping a camera.

Yes there are times when the camera is at fault, do to a snag or distraction. Thats a legitimate time to criticize anyone with any jump number. Someone simply posting a video of a successful skydive is not. Even the recent wingsuit fatality where a gopro was mentioned, people started blaming the camera immediately with no evidence or proof.

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Yes there are times when the camera is at fault, do to a snag or distraction. Thats a legitimate time to criticize anyone with any jump number. Someone simply posting a video of a successful skydive is not. Even the recent wingsuit fatality where a gopro was mentioned, people started blaming the camera immediately with no evidence or proof.



If you are referring to the Elsinore incident, most of the comments about the gopro seemed to be about bad decision making - someone wearing a gopro when trying a new discipline and having stability issues. And that is a consistent theme of this whole thread with most people of the view that sticking a gopro on too early, irrespective of whatever other experience you might have, and irrespective of whether it is hard where you are to get the recommended 200 jumps (that are pre-requisites for a C licence) is indicative of poor decision making. And poor decision making generally equals more risk and more chance of something going badly wrong.

***********************************************
I'm NOT totally useless... I can be used as a bad example

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