MLKSKY 0 #1 September 1, 2006 Could you please tell me which system is your favorite --esp those of you that FF and FS? Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 563 #2 September 1, 2006 I jump a Talon 2 and a Vector 1.5. I got both of them because they were my favorite color: FREE! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Fast 0 #3 September 1, 2006 Try searching some and you will find a bunch of threads on this. Most of which include the statement "People will tell you whatever they jump is the best" So in that sense, I jump a vector 3. The only bad thing anyone has ever said to me about them is they are uncomfortable and they weigh a lot (because there is lots of plastic). I don't think they are, and even if they were I wouldn't care. The list of reasons my rigger likes the canopy and all the quality I see that goes into them makes me trust them more than other rigs on the market. There is a lot of smart shit on a vector thanks to Mr. Booth. Including it currently being the only rig available with a sky hook. (That is subject to change some day though)~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites quinny 0 #4 September 1, 2006 I love my Atom. Its old but still looks good and is really comfortable. I am 5'11 and it was built for someone 6'4+ and I put around 500 jumps on it like that. I then had the harness shortened and I love it even more now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TALONSKY 0 #5 September 1, 2006 I think most all containers now days are great, but my preference is Infinity. They have a great product with bullet proof pin protection and secondary riser covers. I also like their new risers with the hard housings put in place by hardware so they will not ever move rather than just being sewn in. Lastly, outstanding customer service. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites towerrat 0 #6 September 1, 2006 I jump wings for { insert reasons here } . It's already been stated that people will tell you that what they jump is the best, and will give you a plethora of reasons why. Basically everything out today is good, safe equipment. Find something you like and buy it. If there is a particular manufacturer close to you, or there's a majority of a particular container on your DZ, you might think about jumping that. There is a good possibility that your local rigger may be more experienced with that brand over another. Plus if " x brand " manufacturer is close to you then it's easy to work out any problems you may have. Good luckPlay stupid games, win stupid prizes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites grue 1 #7 September 1, 2006 QuoteCould you please tell me which system is your favorite --esp those of you that FF and FS? Thanks I jump an Infinity for a variety of reasons, in no particular order: Awesome riser covers Great pin protection (I can pick up the rig by the main flap, and that's with a 210sqft main and a 220sqft reserve in it) Great looking AMAZINGLY comfortable. I had a bad opening that bounced my chin off of my chest, tore lines from the canopy, and more, and no harm done. Not even a bruise. Well built Good price!cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #8 September 2, 2006 QuoteTry searching some and you will find a bunch of threads on this. Most of which include the statement "People will tell you whatever they jump is the best" and if they were able to fly a variety of brands before making the choice, the statement will be largely correct! Though I never did come across a V3 to rent. Lots of (mediocre) experience with V2s in the student fleets. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites packing_jarrett 0 #9 September 2, 2006 I jump power racer because: I like being unique I like the way it looks I like how its smaller Its light wieght Its easier to pack (reserve and main) Its extremely comfortable excellent riser protection and bridal protection plus I like getting crap from the fellas at the DZNa' Cho' Cheese Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggermick 6 #10 September 2, 2006 QuoteCould you please tell me which system is your favorite --esp those of you that FF and FS? Thanks Reflex. Cuz it's my baby and it works as advertizedMick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ScottyE 0 #11 September 2, 2006 Altico 2005 Dolphin ! Reasons, Price, customer service, comfort, freefly safe, delivered to my door in six days!If I have a problem Mike Furry the owner of the companys shop is an hour drive from me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites yamtx73 0 #12 September 2, 2006 Wings... awesome customer service, price and comfort (with cut in laterals mine feels like it's hugging me)...The only naturals in this sport shit thru feathers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #13 September 2, 2006 QuoteGreat pin protection (I can pick up the rig by the main flap, and that's with a 210sqft main and a 220sqft reserve in it) And if you bridle hangs up on the "great pin protection"? We have gotten so good at protecting the pin we are at risk of trapping the bridle on every jump. To the OP, all rigs are pretty much the same thing with different cosmetics. Try as many as you can and pick the one that seems the best to you.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #14 September 3, 2006 QuoteQuoteGreat pin protection (I can pick up the rig by the main flap, and that's with a 210sqft main and a 220sqft reserve in it) And if you bridle hangs up on the "great pin protection"? We have gotten so good at protecting the pin we are at risk of trapping the bridle on every jump. What is it that prompts you to assert that good bridle protection is risky? Especially since you have made this assertion with respect to a particular manufacturer, I think more information is warranted.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #15 September 3, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteGreat pin protection (I can pick up the rig by the main flap, and that's with a 210sqft main and a 220sqft reserve in it) And if you bridle hangs up on the "great pin protection"? We have gotten so good at protecting the pin we are at risk of trapping the bridle on every jump. QuoteWhat is it that prompts you to assert that good bridle protection is risky? Especially since you have made this assertion with respect to a particular manufacturer, I think more information is warranted. I did not say that good bridle protection is risky you did. I referred to pin protection. It is just my gut feeling; I have no data other than what I have observed. The curved pin that is used through out the industry today takes very little force to lift and extract from the loop. But we seem to be having a higher incidence of PCIT. While some of this increase can be attributed to a PC in the burble and other forms of hesitation it is my feeling that some of the true PCIT situations are due to the “pin protection” features of the rig trapping the bridle and preventing it from pulling the pin. On most rigs this can happen if the packer is just a little sloppy in routing the bridle from the bag to the pin. I am no longer in a position to test my theory but it is something to think about. My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #16 September 3, 2006 Thanks for clarifying that your comments were only based on "gut feeling". Also, I do not agree with your gut feeling that we now seem to have a higher incidence of PCIT.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #17 September 3, 2006 QuoteThanks for clarifying that your comments were only based on "gut feeling". Also, I do not agree with your gut feeling that we now seem to have a higher incidence of PCIT. Then we will just have to disagree. I would hope that someone who is a position to test this "gut feeling" will do so in the near future. How many of the possible 48 to 72 tests are done with the use of a hand deploy PC to activate pack opening and how many are done with static line? Just something else to think about.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Slurp56 0 #18 September 3, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteGreat pin protection (I can pick up the rig by the main flap, and that's with a 210sqft main and a 220sqft reserve in it) And if you bridle hangs up on the "great pin protection"? We have gotten so good at protecting the pin we are at risk of trapping the bridle on every jump. QuoteWhat is it that prompts you to assert that good bridle protection is risky? Especially since you have made this assertion with respect to a particular manufacturer, I think more information is warranted. I did not say that good bridle protection is risky you did. I referred to pin protection. It is just my gut feeling; I have no data other than what I have observed. The curved pin that is used through out the industry today takes very little force to lift and extract from the loop. But we seem to be having a higher incidence of PCIT. While some of this increase can be attributed to a PC in the burble and other forms of hesitation it is my feeling that some of the true PCIT situations are due to the “pin protection” features of the rig trapping the bridle and preventing it from pulling the pin. On most rigs this can happen if the packer is just a little sloppy in routing the bridle from the bag to the pin. I am no longer in a position to test my theory but it is something to think about. While I was reading your post, I got the vibe that you are concerned with user error. Most of the situations you have described can be remedied by good body postion, getting the pilot chute away from you when you throw (not drop) it, and paying attention while packing, let alone a gear check... If thats why you are implying, then I agree. If you are crediting the above situations to a fault of the rig design, then I couldn't disagree more. With that said.... I also jump an infinity, for several reasons: You will not find a better designed set of riser covers. They are made as 1 piece vs a 2nd piece sewn in. There are no "special" packing techniques and they wont come open in free fall... ever. (until you deply, of course ) The Main riser hard housings have a really slick design that keeps them from sliding. They are securely fastened using a pressed grommet The main flap on my infinity always stays shut. I've been told that this is because of the placement of the main closing loop (on the bottom flap instead of at the base of the reserve container, it's designed to keep tension on the flap tab even when the geometry shifts if the rig flexes). Infinity switched to this cool angled main tab design, gone are the days of breaking plastic! The design of the reserve container and free bag is very simple and feels at home to all riggers (except maybe those racer-only kinda guys) Infinity's new floating laterals are the freakin sh*t! If you've havent seen these, you should definately check them out. The secondary riser covers are also very cool and low profile. They aren't overly big and again, always stay closed. The customer service is 2nd to none, and I mean that. The pricing for replacement parts is very reasonable as well. Every surface on the infinity is "finished". There is no exposed plastic or unfinished edges. Even the backs of all of the panels and tabs are covered, which really isn't any better, its just not as cheesy The bottom line is, there are a few good rigs on the market, and all of the rigs allow you to skydive relatively safely. Some have options that others dont, like the skyhook or chest rings for example, but that doesnt make or break a rig. People are opinionated and will tell you what they've "heard" but if a design is bad, it wont last long. Figure out which options are important to you, then go to the DZ and look at other peoples rigs and see how those options are built in. Consider advice about which brand to go with, but dont buy something because he/she said it was the best. Anyways, you asked why I jump the rig that I do, and thats why ________________________________________ I have proof-read this post 500 times, but I guarantee you'll still manage to find a flaw. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #19 September 3, 2006 QuoteWith that said.... I also jump an infinity, for several reasons: You will not find a better designed set of riser covers. They are made as 1 piece vs a 2nd piece sewn in. There are no "special" packing techniques and they wont come open in free fall... ever. (until you deply, of course ) The Main riser hard housings have a really slick design that keeps them from sliding. They are securely fastened using a pressed grommet The main flap on my infinity always stays shut. I've been told that this is because of the placement of the main closing loop (on the bottom flap instead of at the base of the reserve container, it's designed to keep tension on the flap tab even when the geometry shifts if the rig flexes). Infinity switched to this cool angled main tab design, gone are the days of breaking plastic! The design of the reserve container and free bag is very simple and feels at home to all riggers (except maybe those racer-only kinda guys) Infinity's new floating laterals are the freakin sh*t! If you've havent seen these, you should definately check them out. The secondary riser covers are also very cool and low profile. They aren't overly big and again, always stay closed. The customer service is 2nd to none, and I mean that. The pricing for replacement parts is very reasonable as well. Every surface on the infinity is "finished". There is no exposed plastic or unfinished edges. Even the backs of all of the panels and tabs are covered, which really isn't any better, its just not as cheesy Nothing in your post comes close to addressing the problem I am referring to. QuoteAnyways, you asked why I jump the rig that I do, and thats why And no I did not ask you why you jump the rig you do. The OP did.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Slurp56 0 #20 September 3, 2006 QuoteAnd no I did not ask you why you jump the rig you do. The OP did. I was going to make 2 posts to seprate the two thoughts, but I figured it was pretty self explanatory. My apologies, I'm still pretty new to this forum stuff ________________________________________ I have proof-read this post 500 times, but I guarantee you'll still manage to find a flaw. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jojo0815 0 #21 September 4, 2006 Quote While I was reading your post, I got the vibe that you are concerned with user error. Most of the situations you have described can be remedied by good body postion, getting the pilot chute away from you when you throw (not drop) it, and paying attention while packing, let alone a gear check... If thats why you are implying, then I agree. If you are crediting the above situations to a fault of the rig design, then I couldn't disagree more. With that said.... I also jump an infinity, for several reasons: You will not find a better designed set of riser covers. They are made as 1 piece vs a 2nd piece sewn in. There are no "special" packing techniques and they wont come open in free fall... ever. (until you deply, of course ) The Main riser hard housings have a really slick design that keeps them from sliding. They are securely fastened using a pressed grommet The main flap on my infinity always stays shut. I've been told that this is because of the placement of the main closing loop (on the bottom flap instead of at the base of the reserve container, it's designed to keep tension on the flap tab even when the geometry shifts if the rig flexes). Infinity switched to this cool angled main tab design, gone are the days of breaking plastic! The design of the reserve container and free bag is very simple and feels at home to all riggers (except maybe those racer-only kinda guys) Infinity's new floating laterals are the freakin sh*t! If you've havent seen these, you should definately check them out. The secondary riser covers are also very cool and low profile. They aren't overly big and again, always stay closed. The customer service is 2nd to none, and I mean that. The pricing for replacement parts is very reasonable as well. Every surface on the infinity is "finished". There is no exposed plastic or unfinished edges. Even the backs of all of the panels and tabs are covered, which really isn't any better, its just not as cheesy The bottom line is, there are a few good rigs on the market, and all of the rigs allow you to skydive relatively safely. Some have options that others dont, like the skyhook or chest rings for example, but that doesnt make or break a rig. People are opinionated and will tell you what they've "heard" but if a design is bad, it wont last long. Figure out which options are important to you, then go to the DZ and look at other peoples rigs and see how those options are built in. Consider advice about which brand to go with, but dont buy something because he/she said it was the best. Anyways, you asked why I jump the rig that I do, and thats why This post kinda infuriates me for a couple of reasons. first of all no rig out there id the be-all of rigging. the infinity is definitely one of the nicer rigs out there but so are many others. I would really like to take the chance and comment some of your points in your post. first off I don't think the harness design is all that smart. the main lift web kinks right above the laterals which ultimately will weaken the lift-web. the new floating laterals are nice but far away from being new. in fact the way the laterals are attached to the containers on the Infinity is not very durable. I have seen them starting to tear at the seam on several rigs now. that also happens on mirages though. the new leg-pads that come with the floating laterals are very bulky and ugly, my opinion.... back in the day manufacturers used to sandwich the cutaway handles between the lift-web which caused some real hard chops with spinning mals. infinity moved the pillow to the inside of the lift-web. Rigging innovations has a sheath around the lift-web that hosts the handle so there is no load on the pocket. suddenly I see Infinitys with the handle sandwiched again. some Infinitys I pack have type 7 front risers and type 8 rear risers on the reserve. some have type 7 for both. their container design is very long so short people will have a hard time getting the rig to fit right. again that's just an esthetics thing. the reserve system is fairly easy to pack, but you have to be aware of the fact that they use a kicker flap for the reserve PC and the AAD cutter sits below that flap. Airtech suggests for all manufacturers to place the cutter above the PC. reason for that being that with a reserve closing loop that is too long can cause it to hang up between the PC and the reserve container flaps. that's why Mirage issued their service bulletin and they moved the cutter above the PC. it's not really a design flaw in the Mirage container but a rigging error and so it can happen to other rigs that have the cutter below the reserve PC. that includes the vector 3 and the infinity. the main flap design is not bad but not revolutionary either. in fact it's very similar to what Sunpath has used for a long time now. the new angled tab is not bad but it is now integrated with the top main flap which also happens to be the bottom reserve flap. so if you are sitting on the floor in the plane a lot and your flap gets damaged it is not something that's easily replaced. the reason why they don't break any more is because they use a thicker stiffener now. at least the old system was field replaceable. the secondary riser covers are nice but again if your packer doesn't know how to use them they can look very ugly... still I like the idea. the riser covers... oh boy now I am getting started. you said they are user friendly... I beg to differ. I believe you could still get a riser lock if you place your main riser under the first flap before you close it. the reason this doesn't happen is because the riser covers are cut very loosely. and yes.... THEY DO COME OPEN! my freefly partner has 3 Infinitys. on his newest one one of the riser covers is cut 1/4 inch loser than the other one. we do a side by side track off after our routine and I would say 80% of the time I look over and see his riser cover flapping in the wind. at our boogie we asked Kelly personally about it and he told me that was just manufacturing tolerance and there was no way it was more than 1/8 of an inch. I went and got my ruler out and measured just over 1/4 inch... he didn't really have an answer for that, not even offered to fix it or anything... after that I have kept an eye on every infinity that comes through our DZ, I have seen a lot of riser covers being lose. I do believe that they have a lot of tolerance in their manufacturing lately but I also think that there is a design flaw in the riser cover pocket. look at the way RI is doing that... in my opinion a way better solution. I just got some replacement cutaway handles in from Infinity that had the velcro sewn to the wrong side of the handle. back to my freefly partner... his first Infinity was a used container and he loved it. he then ordered a custom rig after a while and was measured by Kelly himself! the lift-web is way too long and the leg-pads are too. he jumped the rig anyway for a while. he then wanted a turn rig so he ordered another one. using the same measurements the rig now fits a lot better but the leg-pads are too short. he asked Kelly for new leg-pads and he sent them to him. you would think the manufacturer knows how the rig he ordered 6 months ago would look like. his leg pads are all black but the replacement ones are black with blue binding tape. he also mentioned the other rig being too big but no action was ever taken. I guess I have rambled long enough now... I am not going to tell you how great the rig I jump is or anything like that. don't believe anybody that has a rig that is apparently made by god himself. even that guy gets sloppy some times. as long as he admits it and tries to correct the mistakes that's all good... blue skies... be safe and don't bounce! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rmsmith 1 #22 September 4, 2006 I like the JumpShack Racer Elite because they have offered the larger reserve v. main for decades, and they are very comfortable due to their being flexible between the reserve and main pack tray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MLKSKY 0 #23 September 4, 2006 I actually jump an infinity container right now, but it is getting up there in age--the riser covers sometimes pop out. I am ready to get a new custom container and just wanted to get an idea of who was happy with their stuff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites KellyF 16 #24 September 5, 2006 Quotefirst off I don't think the harness design is all that smart. the main lift web kinks right above the laterals which ultimately will weaken the lift-web. I've been hearing this statement quite a bit over the last couple of years for some reason. While MANY rigs on the market have a "kink" in the MLW, the only way it will weaken the MLW is if it is loaded in a fashion that harness/container systems don't get loaded. That "kink" will not be there when the jumper is under canopy. Rigs have been built this way for over 25 years, yet I've never heard of a MLW failing because of a "kink". Quotethe new floating laterals are nice but far away from being new. in fact the way the laterals are attached to the containers on the Infinity is not very durable. I have seen them starting to tear at the seam on several rigs now. that also happens on mirages though. We have had prototypes in the field for over a year and over 1000 jumps on a couple of rigs, but we've never had any reports of a durability issue. If no one reports an issue, we can't fix it. The rigs with rigid stabilizers did sometimes have problems with the bottom corners of the backpad coming unstitched, but that has been fixed because people let us know. Quoteback in the day manufacturers used to sandwich the cutaway handles between the lift-web which caused some real hard chops with spinning mals. infinity moved the pillow to the inside of the lift-web. Rigging innovations has a sheath around the lift-web that hosts the handle so there is no load on the pocket. suddenly I see Infinitys with the handle sandwiched again. Look closer at that pocket- the velcro is sewn on in a fashion so that it peels automatically no matter which direction the handle is pulled. Quotesome Infinitys I pack have type 7 front risers and type 8 rear risers on the reserve. some have type 7 for both. The ones with type 8 rear risers are non-articualted harnesses- pretty standard procedure throughout the industry. Quotethe reserve system is fairly easy to pack, but you have to be aware of the fact that they use a kicker flap for the reserve PC and the AAD cutter sits below that flap. Airtech suggests for all manufacturers to place the cutter above the PC. Airtec approved our Cypres installation before the Infinity went into production. We asked for the cutter to be placed on the kicker flap due to the metal top of our reserve pilot chute. They asked us to make some changes in order for them to approve the install, the changes were made, and the install was approved. You are right that it is more of a rigging issue than a design issue though- you should never be able to rock a reserve PC back and forth, and if you can see the edges of it under the flaps of the rig, there's probably a less than ideal situation there (i.e. loop too long, reserve too big for container, or too much bulk in the center). Quotethe main flap design is not bad but not revolutionary either. in fact it's very similar to what Sunpath has used for a long time now. The angled tab is not what makes our pin cover special- it's simply a feature to help preserve the tab from rough packers that try to force the tab into place past the bottom flap grommet when the bottom flap was not pulled completely closed. What makes our pin cover special is as Slurp stated- the location of the closing loop and the construction of the center flap. If the closing loop is located on or near the reserve container, it will change the geometry of the tuck tab system depending on the length of the closing loop and the size of the parachute in the container. In order for a tuck tab system to work properly, several points need to be aligned properly, consistently, and that's what the Infinity does. Quotethe riser covers... oh boy now I am getting started. you said they are user friendly... I beg to differ. I believe you could still get a riser lock if you place your main riser under the first flap before you close it. the reason this doesn't happen is because the riser covers are cut very loosely. This is simply not true either. In order for a riser cover to lock, the riser needs to pull from under the tuck tab pocket. If it is putting pressure on the underside of the pocket, it increases the bite the pocket has on the tab. With some rigs (esp. those with large pockets) this is a true concern since there isn't much to keep a riser from getting deep under the pocket in a situation such as having a shoulder low on deployment, so it's recommended to place the risers on top of the pocket. The design of the Infintiy secondary riser covers and reserve top flap (that also has the riser cover tuck tab pockets) directs the risers to the outside of the rig, where the risers pull on the covers themselves to open them. The "looseness" that you refer to is a required part of the system to prevent the tuck tabs from having too much pressure on them and getting a bend in them, rendering them all but useless. Quoteand yes.... THEY DO COME OPEN! my freefly partner has 3 Infinitys. on his newest one one of the riser covers is cut 1/4 inch loser than the other one. we do a side by side track off after our routine and I would say 80% of the time I look over and see his riser cover flapping in the wind. at our boogie we asked Kelly personally about it and he told me that was just manufacturing tolerance and there was no way it was more than 1/8 of an inch. I went and got my ruler out and measured just over 1/4 inch... he didn't really have an answer for that, not even offered to fix it or anything... As I remember it, it was not a full 1/4", and I asked you to show me or send me some video of the riser cover opening, which I have yet to see four months later. As you may recall, I was quite surprised to hear about Dave having a problem with our riser covers opening before deployment, because we had never heard of it in the six years of manufacturing the currrent version. If I left you with the impression that I wouldn't fix it, I'm sorry. We always stand behind our products and make right what's wrong. But sometimes, without actually SEEING what's causing the problem, it's hard to FIX the problem. All I can really think is that it can't be that much of a problem if someone with three rigs doesn't feel it necessary to be without one for a week or so to fix the issue. QuoteI do believe that they have a lot of tolerance in their manufacturing lately but I also think that there is a design flaw in the riser cover pocket. look at the way RI is doing that... in my opinion a way better solution. What kind of flaw is this? Is it a safety issue, or durability? I think an explanation is due since you've just announced to the world that we have a "flawed" design with no other description, and it's certainly never been brought to VSE's attention as far as I remember. Quoteback to my freefly partner... his first Infinity was a used container and he loved it. he then ordered a custom rig after a while and was measured by Kelly himself! the lift-web is way too long and the leg-pads are too. he jumped the rig anyway for a while. he then wanted a turn rig so he ordered another one. using the same measurements the rig now fits a lot better but the leg-pads are too short. he asked Kelly for new leg-pads and he sent them to him. you would think the manufacturer knows how the rig he ordered 6 months ago would look like. his leg pads are all black but the replacement ones are black with blue binding tape. he also mentioned the other rig being too big but no action was ever taken. Often, it doesn't matter who takes the measurements, but accurate measurements are always the best place to start. There are still things to interpret and educated guesses to be made. Sometimes we don't get it right the first time, as is the case with everything ever built by man. If the harness is too big and the rig has already been assembled, we will resize the harness and repack the reserve for free if the job requires it, but that also requires the rig to be returned to us so we can do the work on it. If it's never returned to us to be fixed, it can only be assumed that the fit isn't that bad. Dave should be able to tell you that we have worked with him to keep him as happy as we can since we built a completely new rig for him after his second rig was made out of a new batch of cordura that had a different shade that he wasn't happy with. We have all order forms on file dating back to 1991, so I have no explanation for the legpads being taped in the wrong color. I'm sorry if this was a bit long winded, but explanations often take longer than observationsMLKSKY: what year was your Infinity made?VSE on Facebook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #25 September 6, 2006 Thanks for helping us to realize that there is so much more good design that goes into the rig. The Infinity is gaining in popularity out here in Ohio, one big DZ has a bunch for student rigs. My rig has been fantastic. Absolutely like new after 4 years. I've never encountered a loose flap on mine or other's. When did you buy the company and put the new Infinity rig design into production? People should realize it was different. Concerning the "kink" issue: Doesn't the kink mean that there is little benefit of the hip ring junction instead of a std/no hip ring rig? I'm speaking of benefit in terms of the rig not being too stiff/limiting movement...People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
riggerrob 563 #2 September 1, 2006 I jump a Talon 2 and a Vector 1.5. I got both of them because they were my favorite color: FREE! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #3 September 1, 2006 Try searching some and you will find a bunch of threads on this. Most of which include the statement "People will tell you whatever they jump is the best" So in that sense, I jump a vector 3. The only bad thing anyone has ever said to me about them is they are uncomfortable and they weigh a lot (because there is lots of plastic). I don't think they are, and even if they were I wouldn't care. The list of reasons my rigger likes the canopy and all the quality I see that goes into them makes me trust them more than other rigs on the market. There is a lot of smart shit on a vector thanks to Mr. Booth. Including it currently being the only rig available with a sky hook. (That is subject to change some day though)~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quinny 0 #4 September 1, 2006 I love my Atom. Its old but still looks good and is really comfortable. I am 5'11 and it was built for someone 6'4+ and I put around 500 jumps on it like that. I then had the harness shortened and I love it even more now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #5 September 1, 2006 I think most all containers now days are great, but my preference is Infinity. They have a great product with bullet proof pin protection and secondary riser covers. I also like their new risers with the hard housings put in place by hardware so they will not ever move rather than just being sewn in. Lastly, outstanding customer service. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
towerrat 0 #6 September 1, 2006 I jump wings for { insert reasons here } . It's already been stated that people will tell you that what they jump is the best, and will give you a plethora of reasons why. Basically everything out today is good, safe equipment. Find something you like and buy it. If there is a particular manufacturer close to you, or there's a majority of a particular container on your DZ, you might think about jumping that. There is a good possibility that your local rigger may be more experienced with that brand over another. Plus if " x brand " manufacturer is close to you then it's easy to work out any problems you may have. Good luckPlay stupid games, win stupid prizes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #7 September 1, 2006 QuoteCould you please tell me which system is your favorite --esp those of you that FF and FS? Thanks I jump an Infinity for a variety of reasons, in no particular order: Awesome riser covers Great pin protection (I can pick up the rig by the main flap, and that's with a 210sqft main and a 220sqft reserve in it) Great looking AMAZINGLY comfortable. I had a bad opening that bounced my chin off of my chest, tore lines from the canopy, and more, and no harm done. Not even a bruise. Well built Good price!cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #8 September 2, 2006 QuoteTry searching some and you will find a bunch of threads on this. Most of which include the statement "People will tell you whatever they jump is the best" and if they were able to fly a variety of brands before making the choice, the statement will be largely correct! Though I never did come across a V3 to rent. Lots of (mediocre) experience with V2s in the student fleets. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
packing_jarrett 0 #9 September 2, 2006 I jump power racer because: I like being unique I like the way it looks I like how its smaller Its light wieght Its easier to pack (reserve and main) Its extremely comfortable excellent riser protection and bridal protection plus I like getting crap from the fellas at the DZNa' Cho' Cheese Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 6 #10 September 2, 2006 QuoteCould you please tell me which system is your favorite --esp those of you that FF and FS? Thanks Reflex. Cuz it's my baby and it works as advertizedMick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ScottyE 0 #11 September 2, 2006 Altico 2005 Dolphin ! Reasons, Price, customer service, comfort, freefly safe, delivered to my door in six days!If I have a problem Mike Furry the owner of the companys shop is an hour drive from me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yamtx73 0 #12 September 2, 2006 Wings... awesome customer service, price and comfort (with cut in laterals mine feels like it's hugging me)...The only naturals in this sport shit thru feathers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #13 September 2, 2006 QuoteGreat pin protection (I can pick up the rig by the main flap, and that's with a 210sqft main and a 220sqft reserve in it) And if you bridle hangs up on the "great pin protection"? We have gotten so good at protecting the pin we are at risk of trapping the bridle on every jump. To the OP, all rigs are pretty much the same thing with different cosmetics. Try as many as you can and pick the one that seems the best to you.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #14 September 3, 2006 QuoteQuoteGreat pin protection (I can pick up the rig by the main flap, and that's with a 210sqft main and a 220sqft reserve in it) And if you bridle hangs up on the "great pin protection"? We have gotten so good at protecting the pin we are at risk of trapping the bridle on every jump. What is it that prompts you to assert that good bridle protection is risky? Especially since you have made this assertion with respect to a particular manufacturer, I think more information is warranted.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #15 September 3, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteGreat pin protection (I can pick up the rig by the main flap, and that's with a 210sqft main and a 220sqft reserve in it) And if you bridle hangs up on the "great pin protection"? We have gotten so good at protecting the pin we are at risk of trapping the bridle on every jump. QuoteWhat is it that prompts you to assert that good bridle protection is risky? Especially since you have made this assertion with respect to a particular manufacturer, I think more information is warranted. I did not say that good bridle protection is risky you did. I referred to pin protection. It is just my gut feeling; I have no data other than what I have observed. The curved pin that is used through out the industry today takes very little force to lift and extract from the loop. But we seem to be having a higher incidence of PCIT. While some of this increase can be attributed to a PC in the burble and other forms of hesitation it is my feeling that some of the true PCIT situations are due to the “pin protection” features of the rig trapping the bridle and preventing it from pulling the pin. On most rigs this can happen if the packer is just a little sloppy in routing the bridle from the bag to the pin. I am no longer in a position to test my theory but it is something to think about. My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #16 September 3, 2006 Thanks for clarifying that your comments were only based on "gut feeling". Also, I do not agree with your gut feeling that we now seem to have a higher incidence of PCIT.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #17 September 3, 2006 QuoteThanks for clarifying that your comments were only based on "gut feeling". Also, I do not agree with your gut feeling that we now seem to have a higher incidence of PCIT. Then we will just have to disagree. I would hope that someone who is a position to test this "gut feeling" will do so in the near future. How many of the possible 48 to 72 tests are done with the use of a hand deploy PC to activate pack opening and how many are done with static line? Just something else to think about.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Slurp56 0 #18 September 3, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteGreat pin protection (I can pick up the rig by the main flap, and that's with a 210sqft main and a 220sqft reserve in it) And if you bridle hangs up on the "great pin protection"? We have gotten so good at protecting the pin we are at risk of trapping the bridle on every jump. QuoteWhat is it that prompts you to assert that good bridle protection is risky? Especially since you have made this assertion with respect to a particular manufacturer, I think more information is warranted. I did not say that good bridle protection is risky you did. I referred to pin protection. It is just my gut feeling; I have no data other than what I have observed. The curved pin that is used through out the industry today takes very little force to lift and extract from the loop. But we seem to be having a higher incidence of PCIT. While some of this increase can be attributed to a PC in the burble and other forms of hesitation it is my feeling that some of the true PCIT situations are due to the “pin protection” features of the rig trapping the bridle and preventing it from pulling the pin. On most rigs this can happen if the packer is just a little sloppy in routing the bridle from the bag to the pin. I am no longer in a position to test my theory but it is something to think about. While I was reading your post, I got the vibe that you are concerned with user error. Most of the situations you have described can be remedied by good body postion, getting the pilot chute away from you when you throw (not drop) it, and paying attention while packing, let alone a gear check... If thats why you are implying, then I agree. If you are crediting the above situations to a fault of the rig design, then I couldn't disagree more. With that said.... I also jump an infinity, for several reasons: You will not find a better designed set of riser covers. They are made as 1 piece vs a 2nd piece sewn in. There are no "special" packing techniques and they wont come open in free fall... ever. (until you deply, of course ) The Main riser hard housings have a really slick design that keeps them from sliding. They are securely fastened using a pressed grommet The main flap on my infinity always stays shut. I've been told that this is because of the placement of the main closing loop (on the bottom flap instead of at the base of the reserve container, it's designed to keep tension on the flap tab even when the geometry shifts if the rig flexes). Infinity switched to this cool angled main tab design, gone are the days of breaking plastic! The design of the reserve container and free bag is very simple and feels at home to all riggers (except maybe those racer-only kinda guys) Infinity's new floating laterals are the freakin sh*t! If you've havent seen these, you should definately check them out. The secondary riser covers are also very cool and low profile. They aren't overly big and again, always stay closed. The customer service is 2nd to none, and I mean that. The pricing for replacement parts is very reasonable as well. Every surface on the infinity is "finished". There is no exposed plastic or unfinished edges. Even the backs of all of the panels and tabs are covered, which really isn't any better, its just not as cheesy The bottom line is, there are a few good rigs on the market, and all of the rigs allow you to skydive relatively safely. Some have options that others dont, like the skyhook or chest rings for example, but that doesnt make or break a rig. People are opinionated and will tell you what they've "heard" but if a design is bad, it wont last long. Figure out which options are important to you, then go to the DZ and look at other peoples rigs and see how those options are built in. Consider advice about which brand to go with, but dont buy something because he/she said it was the best. Anyways, you asked why I jump the rig that I do, and thats why ________________________________________ I have proof-read this post 500 times, but I guarantee you'll still manage to find a flaw. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #19 September 3, 2006 QuoteWith that said.... I also jump an infinity, for several reasons: You will not find a better designed set of riser covers. They are made as 1 piece vs a 2nd piece sewn in. There are no "special" packing techniques and they wont come open in free fall... ever. (until you deply, of course ) The Main riser hard housings have a really slick design that keeps them from sliding. They are securely fastened using a pressed grommet The main flap on my infinity always stays shut. I've been told that this is because of the placement of the main closing loop (on the bottom flap instead of at the base of the reserve container, it's designed to keep tension on the flap tab even when the geometry shifts if the rig flexes). Infinity switched to this cool angled main tab design, gone are the days of breaking plastic! The design of the reserve container and free bag is very simple and feels at home to all riggers (except maybe those racer-only kinda guys) Infinity's new floating laterals are the freakin sh*t! If you've havent seen these, you should definately check them out. The secondary riser covers are also very cool and low profile. They aren't overly big and again, always stay closed. The customer service is 2nd to none, and I mean that. The pricing for replacement parts is very reasonable as well. Every surface on the infinity is "finished". There is no exposed plastic or unfinished edges. Even the backs of all of the panels and tabs are covered, which really isn't any better, its just not as cheesy Nothing in your post comes close to addressing the problem I am referring to. QuoteAnyways, you asked why I jump the rig that I do, and thats why And no I did not ask you why you jump the rig you do. The OP did.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Slurp56 0 #20 September 3, 2006 QuoteAnd no I did not ask you why you jump the rig you do. The OP did. I was going to make 2 posts to seprate the two thoughts, but I figured it was pretty self explanatory. My apologies, I'm still pretty new to this forum stuff ________________________________________ I have proof-read this post 500 times, but I guarantee you'll still manage to find a flaw. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jojo0815 0 #21 September 4, 2006 Quote While I was reading your post, I got the vibe that you are concerned with user error. Most of the situations you have described can be remedied by good body postion, getting the pilot chute away from you when you throw (not drop) it, and paying attention while packing, let alone a gear check... If thats why you are implying, then I agree. If you are crediting the above situations to a fault of the rig design, then I couldn't disagree more. With that said.... I also jump an infinity, for several reasons: You will not find a better designed set of riser covers. They are made as 1 piece vs a 2nd piece sewn in. There are no "special" packing techniques and they wont come open in free fall... ever. (until you deply, of course ) The Main riser hard housings have a really slick design that keeps them from sliding. They are securely fastened using a pressed grommet The main flap on my infinity always stays shut. I've been told that this is because of the placement of the main closing loop (on the bottom flap instead of at the base of the reserve container, it's designed to keep tension on the flap tab even when the geometry shifts if the rig flexes). Infinity switched to this cool angled main tab design, gone are the days of breaking plastic! The design of the reserve container and free bag is very simple and feels at home to all riggers (except maybe those racer-only kinda guys) Infinity's new floating laterals are the freakin sh*t! If you've havent seen these, you should definately check them out. The secondary riser covers are also very cool and low profile. They aren't overly big and again, always stay closed. The customer service is 2nd to none, and I mean that. The pricing for replacement parts is very reasonable as well. Every surface on the infinity is "finished". There is no exposed plastic or unfinished edges. Even the backs of all of the panels and tabs are covered, which really isn't any better, its just not as cheesy The bottom line is, there are a few good rigs on the market, and all of the rigs allow you to skydive relatively safely. Some have options that others dont, like the skyhook or chest rings for example, but that doesnt make or break a rig. People are opinionated and will tell you what they've "heard" but if a design is bad, it wont last long. Figure out which options are important to you, then go to the DZ and look at other peoples rigs and see how those options are built in. Consider advice about which brand to go with, but dont buy something because he/she said it was the best. Anyways, you asked why I jump the rig that I do, and thats why This post kinda infuriates me for a couple of reasons. first of all no rig out there id the be-all of rigging. the infinity is definitely one of the nicer rigs out there but so are many others. I would really like to take the chance and comment some of your points in your post. first off I don't think the harness design is all that smart. the main lift web kinks right above the laterals which ultimately will weaken the lift-web. the new floating laterals are nice but far away from being new. in fact the way the laterals are attached to the containers on the Infinity is not very durable. I have seen them starting to tear at the seam on several rigs now. that also happens on mirages though. the new leg-pads that come with the floating laterals are very bulky and ugly, my opinion.... back in the day manufacturers used to sandwich the cutaway handles between the lift-web which caused some real hard chops with spinning mals. infinity moved the pillow to the inside of the lift-web. Rigging innovations has a sheath around the lift-web that hosts the handle so there is no load on the pocket. suddenly I see Infinitys with the handle sandwiched again. some Infinitys I pack have type 7 front risers and type 8 rear risers on the reserve. some have type 7 for both. their container design is very long so short people will have a hard time getting the rig to fit right. again that's just an esthetics thing. the reserve system is fairly easy to pack, but you have to be aware of the fact that they use a kicker flap for the reserve PC and the AAD cutter sits below that flap. Airtech suggests for all manufacturers to place the cutter above the PC. reason for that being that with a reserve closing loop that is too long can cause it to hang up between the PC and the reserve container flaps. that's why Mirage issued their service bulletin and they moved the cutter above the PC. it's not really a design flaw in the Mirage container but a rigging error and so it can happen to other rigs that have the cutter below the reserve PC. that includes the vector 3 and the infinity. the main flap design is not bad but not revolutionary either. in fact it's very similar to what Sunpath has used for a long time now. the new angled tab is not bad but it is now integrated with the top main flap which also happens to be the bottom reserve flap. so if you are sitting on the floor in the plane a lot and your flap gets damaged it is not something that's easily replaced. the reason why they don't break any more is because they use a thicker stiffener now. at least the old system was field replaceable. the secondary riser covers are nice but again if your packer doesn't know how to use them they can look very ugly... still I like the idea. the riser covers... oh boy now I am getting started. you said they are user friendly... I beg to differ. I believe you could still get a riser lock if you place your main riser under the first flap before you close it. the reason this doesn't happen is because the riser covers are cut very loosely. and yes.... THEY DO COME OPEN! my freefly partner has 3 Infinitys. on his newest one one of the riser covers is cut 1/4 inch loser than the other one. we do a side by side track off after our routine and I would say 80% of the time I look over and see his riser cover flapping in the wind. at our boogie we asked Kelly personally about it and he told me that was just manufacturing tolerance and there was no way it was more than 1/8 of an inch. I went and got my ruler out and measured just over 1/4 inch... he didn't really have an answer for that, not even offered to fix it or anything... after that I have kept an eye on every infinity that comes through our DZ, I have seen a lot of riser covers being lose. I do believe that they have a lot of tolerance in their manufacturing lately but I also think that there is a design flaw in the riser cover pocket. look at the way RI is doing that... in my opinion a way better solution. I just got some replacement cutaway handles in from Infinity that had the velcro sewn to the wrong side of the handle. back to my freefly partner... his first Infinity was a used container and he loved it. he then ordered a custom rig after a while and was measured by Kelly himself! the lift-web is way too long and the leg-pads are too. he jumped the rig anyway for a while. he then wanted a turn rig so he ordered another one. using the same measurements the rig now fits a lot better but the leg-pads are too short. he asked Kelly for new leg-pads and he sent them to him. you would think the manufacturer knows how the rig he ordered 6 months ago would look like. his leg pads are all black but the replacement ones are black with blue binding tape. he also mentioned the other rig being too big but no action was ever taken. I guess I have rambled long enough now... I am not going to tell you how great the rig I jump is or anything like that. don't believe anybody that has a rig that is apparently made by god himself. even that guy gets sloppy some times. as long as he admits it and tries to correct the mistakes that's all good... blue skies... be safe and don't bounce! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rmsmith 1 #22 September 4, 2006 I like the JumpShack Racer Elite because they have offered the larger reserve v. main for decades, and they are very comfortable due to their being flexible between the reserve and main pack tray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MLKSKY 0 #23 September 4, 2006 I actually jump an infinity container right now, but it is getting up there in age--the riser covers sometimes pop out. I am ready to get a new custom container and just wanted to get an idea of who was happy with their stuff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites KellyF 16 #24 September 5, 2006 Quotefirst off I don't think the harness design is all that smart. the main lift web kinks right above the laterals which ultimately will weaken the lift-web. I've been hearing this statement quite a bit over the last couple of years for some reason. While MANY rigs on the market have a "kink" in the MLW, the only way it will weaken the MLW is if it is loaded in a fashion that harness/container systems don't get loaded. That "kink" will not be there when the jumper is under canopy. Rigs have been built this way for over 25 years, yet I've never heard of a MLW failing because of a "kink". Quotethe new floating laterals are nice but far away from being new. in fact the way the laterals are attached to the containers on the Infinity is not very durable. I have seen them starting to tear at the seam on several rigs now. that also happens on mirages though. We have had prototypes in the field for over a year and over 1000 jumps on a couple of rigs, but we've never had any reports of a durability issue. If no one reports an issue, we can't fix it. The rigs with rigid stabilizers did sometimes have problems with the bottom corners of the backpad coming unstitched, but that has been fixed because people let us know. Quoteback in the day manufacturers used to sandwich the cutaway handles between the lift-web which caused some real hard chops with spinning mals. infinity moved the pillow to the inside of the lift-web. Rigging innovations has a sheath around the lift-web that hosts the handle so there is no load on the pocket. suddenly I see Infinitys with the handle sandwiched again. Look closer at that pocket- the velcro is sewn on in a fashion so that it peels automatically no matter which direction the handle is pulled. Quotesome Infinitys I pack have type 7 front risers and type 8 rear risers on the reserve. some have type 7 for both. The ones with type 8 rear risers are non-articualted harnesses- pretty standard procedure throughout the industry. Quotethe reserve system is fairly easy to pack, but you have to be aware of the fact that they use a kicker flap for the reserve PC and the AAD cutter sits below that flap. Airtech suggests for all manufacturers to place the cutter above the PC. Airtec approved our Cypres installation before the Infinity went into production. We asked for the cutter to be placed on the kicker flap due to the metal top of our reserve pilot chute. They asked us to make some changes in order for them to approve the install, the changes were made, and the install was approved. You are right that it is more of a rigging issue than a design issue though- you should never be able to rock a reserve PC back and forth, and if you can see the edges of it under the flaps of the rig, there's probably a less than ideal situation there (i.e. loop too long, reserve too big for container, or too much bulk in the center). Quotethe main flap design is not bad but not revolutionary either. in fact it's very similar to what Sunpath has used for a long time now. The angled tab is not what makes our pin cover special- it's simply a feature to help preserve the tab from rough packers that try to force the tab into place past the bottom flap grommet when the bottom flap was not pulled completely closed. What makes our pin cover special is as Slurp stated- the location of the closing loop and the construction of the center flap. If the closing loop is located on or near the reserve container, it will change the geometry of the tuck tab system depending on the length of the closing loop and the size of the parachute in the container. In order for a tuck tab system to work properly, several points need to be aligned properly, consistently, and that's what the Infinity does. Quotethe riser covers... oh boy now I am getting started. you said they are user friendly... I beg to differ. I believe you could still get a riser lock if you place your main riser under the first flap before you close it. the reason this doesn't happen is because the riser covers are cut very loosely. This is simply not true either. In order for a riser cover to lock, the riser needs to pull from under the tuck tab pocket. If it is putting pressure on the underside of the pocket, it increases the bite the pocket has on the tab. With some rigs (esp. those with large pockets) this is a true concern since there isn't much to keep a riser from getting deep under the pocket in a situation such as having a shoulder low on deployment, so it's recommended to place the risers on top of the pocket. The design of the Infintiy secondary riser covers and reserve top flap (that also has the riser cover tuck tab pockets) directs the risers to the outside of the rig, where the risers pull on the covers themselves to open them. The "looseness" that you refer to is a required part of the system to prevent the tuck tabs from having too much pressure on them and getting a bend in them, rendering them all but useless. Quoteand yes.... THEY DO COME OPEN! my freefly partner has 3 Infinitys. on his newest one one of the riser covers is cut 1/4 inch loser than the other one. we do a side by side track off after our routine and I would say 80% of the time I look over and see his riser cover flapping in the wind. at our boogie we asked Kelly personally about it and he told me that was just manufacturing tolerance and there was no way it was more than 1/8 of an inch. I went and got my ruler out and measured just over 1/4 inch... he didn't really have an answer for that, not even offered to fix it or anything... As I remember it, it was not a full 1/4", and I asked you to show me or send me some video of the riser cover opening, which I have yet to see four months later. As you may recall, I was quite surprised to hear about Dave having a problem with our riser covers opening before deployment, because we had never heard of it in the six years of manufacturing the currrent version. If I left you with the impression that I wouldn't fix it, I'm sorry. We always stand behind our products and make right what's wrong. But sometimes, without actually SEEING what's causing the problem, it's hard to FIX the problem. All I can really think is that it can't be that much of a problem if someone with three rigs doesn't feel it necessary to be without one for a week or so to fix the issue. QuoteI do believe that they have a lot of tolerance in their manufacturing lately but I also think that there is a design flaw in the riser cover pocket. look at the way RI is doing that... in my opinion a way better solution. What kind of flaw is this? Is it a safety issue, or durability? I think an explanation is due since you've just announced to the world that we have a "flawed" design with no other description, and it's certainly never been brought to VSE's attention as far as I remember. Quoteback to my freefly partner... his first Infinity was a used container and he loved it. he then ordered a custom rig after a while and was measured by Kelly himself! the lift-web is way too long and the leg-pads are too. he jumped the rig anyway for a while. he then wanted a turn rig so he ordered another one. using the same measurements the rig now fits a lot better but the leg-pads are too short. he asked Kelly for new leg-pads and he sent them to him. you would think the manufacturer knows how the rig he ordered 6 months ago would look like. his leg pads are all black but the replacement ones are black with blue binding tape. he also mentioned the other rig being too big but no action was ever taken. Often, it doesn't matter who takes the measurements, but accurate measurements are always the best place to start. There are still things to interpret and educated guesses to be made. Sometimes we don't get it right the first time, as is the case with everything ever built by man. If the harness is too big and the rig has already been assembled, we will resize the harness and repack the reserve for free if the job requires it, but that also requires the rig to be returned to us so we can do the work on it. If it's never returned to us to be fixed, it can only be assumed that the fit isn't that bad. Dave should be able to tell you that we have worked with him to keep him as happy as we can since we built a completely new rig for him after his second rig was made out of a new batch of cordura that had a different shade that he wasn't happy with. We have all order forms on file dating back to 1991, so I have no explanation for the legpads being taped in the wrong color. I'm sorry if this was a bit long winded, but explanations often take longer than observationsMLKSKY: what year was your Infinity made?VSE on Facebook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #25 September 6, 2006 Thanks for helping us to realize that there is so much more good design that goes into the rig. The Infinity is gaining in popularity out here in Ohio, one big DZ has a bunch for student rigs. My rig has been fantastic. Absolutely like new after 4 years. I've never encountered a loose flap on mine or other's. When did you buy the company and put the new Infinity rig design into production? People should realize it was different. Concerning the "kink" issue: Doesn't the kink mean that there is little benefit of the hip ring junction instead of a std/no hip ring rig? I'm speaking of benefit in terms of the rig not being too stiff/limiting movement...People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
sundevil777 94 #16 September 3, 2006 Thanks for clarifying that your comments were only based on "gut feeling". Also, I do not agree with your gut feeling that we now seem to have a higher incidence of PCIT.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #17 September 3, 2006 QuoteThanks for clarifying that your comments were only based on "gut feeling". Also, I do not agree with your gut feeling that we now seem to have a higher incidence of PCIT. Then we will just have to disagree. I would hope that someone who is a position to test this "gut feeling" will do so in the near future. How many of the possible 48 to 72 tests are done with the use of a hand deploy PC to activate pack opening and how many are done with static line? Just something else to think about.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slurp56 0 #18 September 3, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteGreat pin protection (I can pick up the rig by the main flap, and that's with a 210sqft main and a 220sqft reserve in it) And if you bridle hangs up on the "great pin protection"? We have gotten so good at protecting the pin we are at risk of trapping the bridle on every jump. QuoteWhat is it that prompts you to assert that good bridle protection is risky? Especially since you have made this assertion with respect to a particular manufacturer, I think more information is warranted. I did not say that good bridle protection is risky you did. I referred to pin protection. It is just my gut feeling; I have no data other than what I have observed. The curved pin that is used through out the industry today takes very little force to lift and extract from the loop. But we seem to be having a higher incidence of PCIT. While some of this increase can be attributed to a PC in the burble and other forms of hesitation it is my feeling that some of the true PCIT situations are due to the “pin protection” features of the rig trapping the bridle and preventing it from pulling the pin. On most rigs this can happen if the packer is just a little sloppy in routing the bridle from the bag to the pin. I am no longer in a position to test my theory but it is something to think about. While I was reading your post, I got the vibe that you are concerned with user error. Most of the situations you have described can be remedied by good body postion, getting the pilot chute away from you when you throw (not drop) it, and paying attention while packing, let alone a gear check... If thats why you are implying, then I agree. If you are crediting the above situations to a fault of the rig design, then I couldn't disagree more. With that said.... I also jump an infinity, for several reasons: You will not find a better designed set of riser covers. They are made as 1 piece vs a 2nd piece sewn in. There are no "special" packing techniques and they wont come open in free fall... ever. (until you deply, of course ) The Main riser hard housings have a really slick design that keeps them from sliding. They are securely fastened using a pressed grommet The main flap on my infinity always stays shut. I've been told that this is because of the placement of the main closing loop (on the bottom flap instead of at the base of the reserve container, it's designed to keep tension on the flap tab even when the geometry shifts if the rig flexes). Infinity switched to this cool angled main tab design, gone are the days of breaking plastic! The design of the reserve container and free bag is very simple and feels at home to all riggers (except maybe those racer-only kinda guys) Infinity's new floating laterals are the freakin sh*t! If you've havent seen these, you should definately check them out. The secondary riser covers are also very cool and low profile. They aren't overly big and again, always stay closed. The customer service is 2nd to none, and I mean that. The pricing for replacement parts is very reasonable as well. Every surface on the infinity is "finished". There is no exposed plastic or unfinished edges. Even the backs of all of the panels and tabs are covered, which really isn't any better, its just not as cheesy The bottom line is, there are a few good rigs on the market, and all of the rigs allow you to skydive relatively safely. Some have options that others dont, like the skyhook or chest rings for example, but that doesnt make or break a rig. People are opinionated and will tell you what they've "heard" but if a design is bad, it wont last long. Figure out which options are important to you, then go to the DZ and look at other peoples rigs and see how those options are built in. Consider advice about which brand to go with, but dont buy something because he/she said it was the best. Anyways, you asked why I jump the rig that I do, and thats why ________________________________________ I have proof-read this post 500 times, but I guarantee you'll still manage to find a flaw. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #19 September 3, 2006 QuoteWith that said.... I also jump an infinity, for several reasons: You will not find a better designed set of riser covers. They are made as 1 piece vs a 2nd piece sewn in. There are no "special" packing techniques and they wont come open in free fall... ever. (until you deply, of course ) The Main riser hard housings have a really slick design that keeps them from sliding. They are securely fastened using a pressed grommet The main flap on my infinity always stays shut. I've been told that this is because of the placement of the main closing loop (on the bottom flap instead of at the base of the reserve container, it's designed to keep tension on the flap tab even when the geometry shifts if the rig flexes). Infinity switched to this cool angled main tab design, gone are the days of breaking plastic! The design of the reserve container and free bag is very simple and feels at home to all riggers (except maybe those racer-only kinda guys) Infinity's new floating laterals are the freakin sh*t! If you've havent seen these, you should definately check them out. The secondary riser covers are also very cool and low profile. They aren't overly big and again, always stay closed. The customer service is 2nd to none, and I mean that. The pricing for replacement parts is very reasonable as well. Every surface on the infinity is "finished". There is no exposed plastic or unfinished edges. Even the backs of all of the panels and tabs are covered, which really isn't any better, its just not as cheesy Nothing in your post comes close to addressing the problem I am referring to. QuoteAnyways, you asked why I jump the rig that I do, and thats why And no I did not ask you why you jump the rig you do. The OP did.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Slurp56 0 #20 September 3, 2006 QuoteAnd no I did not ask you why you jump the rig you do. The OP did. I was going to make 2 posts to seprate the two thoughts, but I figured it was pretty self explanatory. My apologies, I'm still pretty new to this forum stuff ________________________________________ I have proof-read this post 500 times, but I guarantee you'll still manage to find a flaw. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jojo0815 0 #21 September 4, 2006 Quote While I was reading your post, I got the vibe that you are concerned with user error. Most of the situations you have described can be remedied by good body postion, getting the pilot chute away from you when you throw (not drop) it, and paying attention while packing, let alone a gear check... If thats why you are implying, then I agree. If you are crediting the above situations to a fault of the rig design, then I couldn't disagree more. With that said.... I also jump an infinity, for several reasons: You will not find a better designed set of riser covers. They are made as 1 piece vs a 2nd piece sewn in. There are no "special" packing techniques and they wont come open in free fall... ever. (until you deply, of course ) The Main riser hard housings have a really slick design that keeps them from sliding. They are securely fastened using a pressed grommet The main flap on my infinity always stays shut. I've been told that this is because of the placement of the main closing loop (on the bottom flap instead of at the base of the reserve container, it's designed to keep tension on the flap tab even when the geometry shifts if the rig flexes). Infinity switched to this cool angled main tab design, gone are the days of breaking plastic! The design of the reserve container and free bag is very simple and feels at home to all riggers (except maybe those racer-only kinda guys) Infinity's new floating laterals are the freakin sh*t! If you've havent seen these, you should definately check them out. The secondary riser covers are also very cool and low profile. They aren't overly big and again, always stay closed. The customer service is 2nd to none, and I mean that. The pricing for replacement parts is very reasonable as well. Every surface on the infinity is "finished". There is no exposed plastic or unfinished edges. Even the backs of all of the panels and tabs are covered, which really isn't any better, its just not as cheesy The bottom line is, there are a few good rigs on the market, and all of the rigs allow you to skydive relatively safely. Some have options that others dont, like the skyhook or chest rings for example, but that doesnt make or break a rig. People are opinionated and will tell you what they've "heard" but if a design is bad, it wont last long. Figure out which options are important to you, then go to the DZ and look at other peoples rigs and see how those options are built in. Consider advice about which brand to go with, but dont buy something because he/she said it was the best. Anyways, you asked why I jump the rig that I do, and thats why This post kinda infuriates me for a couple of reasons. first of all no rig out there id the be-all of rigging. the infinity is definitely one of the nicer rigs out there but so are many others. I would really like to take the chance and comment some of your points in your post. first off I don't think the harness design is all that smart. the main lift web kinks right above the laterals which ultimately will weaken the lift-web. the new floating laterals are nice but far away from being new. in fact the way the laterals are attached to the containers on the Infinity is not very durable. I have seen them starting to tear at the seam on several rigs now. that also happens on mirages though. the new leg-pads that come with the floating laterals are very bulky and ugly, my opinion.... back in the day manufacturers used to sandwich the cutaway handles between the lift-web which caused some real hard chops with spinning mals. infinity moved the pillow to the inside of the lift-web. Rigging innovations has a sheath around the lift-web that hosts the handle so there is no load on the pocket. suddenly I see Infinitys with the handle sandwiched again. some Infinitys I pack have type 7 front risers and type 8 rear risers on the reserve. some have type 7 for both. their container design is very long so short people will have a hard time getting the rig to fit right. again that's just an esthetics thing. the reserve system is fairly easy to pack, but you have to be aware of the fact that they use a kicker flap for the reserve PC and the AAD cutter sits below that flap. Airtech suggests for all manufacturers to place the cutter above the PC. reason for that being that with a reserve closing loop that is too long can cause it to hang up between the PC and the reserve container flaps. that's why Mirage issued their service bulletin and they moved the cutter above the PC. it's not really a design flaw in the Mirage container but a rigging error and so it can happen to other rigs that have the cutter below the reserve PC. that includes the vector 3 and the infinity. the main flap design is not bad but not revolutionary either. in fact it's very similar to what Sunpath has used for a long time now. the new angled tab is not bad but it is now integrated with the top main flap which also happens to be the bottom reserve flap. so if you are sitting on the floor in the plane a lot and your flap gets damaged it is not something that's easily replaced. the reason why they don't break any more is because they use a thicker stiffener now. at least the old system was field replaceable. the secondary riser covers are nice but again if your packer doesn't know how to use them they can look very ugly... still I like the idea. the riser covers... oh boy now I am getting started. you said they are user friendly... I beg to differ. I believe you could still get a riser lock if you place your main riser under the first flap before you close it. the reason this doesn't happen is because the riser covers are cut very loosely. and yes.... THEY DO COME OPEN! my freefly partner has 3 Infinitys. on his newest one one of the riser covers is cut 1/4 inch loser than the other one. we do a side by side track off after our routine and I would say 80% of the time I look over and see his riser cover flapping in the wind. at our boogie we asked Kelly personally about it and he told me that was just manufacturing tolerance and there was no way it was more than 1/8 of an inch. I went and got my ruler out and measured just over 1/4 inch... he didn't really have an answer for that, not even offered to fix it or anything... after that I have kept an eye on every infinity that comes through our DZ, I have seen a lot of riser covers being lose. I do believe that they have a lot of tolerance in their manufacturing lately but I also think that there is a design flaw in the riser cover pocket. look at the way RI is doing that... in my opinion a way better solution. I just got some replacement cutaway handles in from Infinity that had the velcro sewn to the wrong side of the handle. back to my freefly partner... his first Infinity was a used container and he loved it. he then ordered a custom rig after a while and was measured by Kelly himself! the lift-web is way too long and the leg-pads are too. he jumped the rig anyway for a while. he then wanted a turn rig so he ordered another one. using the same measurements the rig now fits a lot better but the leg-pads are too short. he asked Kelly for new leg-pads and he sent them to him. you would think the manufacturer knows how the rig he ordered 6 months ago would look like. his leg pads are all black but the replacement ones are black with blue binding tape. he also mentioned the other rig being too big but no action was ever taken. I guess I have rambled long enough now... I am not going to tell you how great the rig I jump is or anything like that. don't believe anybody that has a rig that is apparently made by god himself. even that guy gets sloppy some times. as long as he admits it and tries to correct the mistakes that's all good... blue skies... be safe and don't bounce! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rmsmith 1 #22 September 4, 2006 I like the JumpShack Racer Elite because they have offered the larger reserve v. main for decades, and they are very comfortable due to their being flexible between the reserve and main pack tray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MLKSKY 0 #23 September 4, 2006 I actually jump an infinity container right now, but it is getting up there in age--the riser covers sometimes pop out. I am ready to get a new custom container and just wanted to get an idea of who was happy with their stuff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites KellyF 16 #24 September 5, 2006 Quotefirst off I don't think the harness design is all that smart. the main lift web kinks right above the laterals which ultimately will weaken the lift-web. I've been hearing this statement quite a bit over the last couple of years for some reason. While MANY rigs on the market have a "kink" in the MLW, the only way it will weaken the MLW is if it is loaded in a fashion that harness/container systems don't get loaded. That "kink" will not be there when the jumper is under canopy. Rigs have been built this way for over 25 years, yet I've never heard of a MLW failing because of a "kink". Quotethe new floating laterals are nice but far away from being new. in fact the way the laterals are attached to the containers on the Infinity is not very durable. I have seen them starting to tear at the seam on several rigs now. that also happens on mirages though. We have had prototypes in the field for over a year and over 1000 jumps on a couple of rigs, but we've never had any reports of a durability issue. If no one reports an issue, we can't fix it. The rigs with rigid stabilizers did sometimes have problems with the bottom corners of the backpad coming unstitched, but that has been fixed because people let us know. Quoteback in the day manufacturers used to sandwich the cutaway handles between the lift-web which caused some real hard chops with spinning mals. infinity moved the pillow to the inside of the lift-web. Rigging innovations has a sheath around the lift-web that hosts the handle so there is no load on the pocket. suddenly I see Infinitys with the handle sandwiched again. Look closer at that pocket- the velcro is sewn on in a fashion so that it peels automatically no matter which direction the handle is pulled. Quotesome Infinitys I pack have type 7 front risers and type 8 rear risers on the reserve. some have type 7 for both. The ones with type 8 rear risers are non-articualted harnesses- pretty standard procedure throughout the industry. Quotethe reserve system is fairly easy to pack, but you have to be aware of the fact that they use a kicker flap for the reserve PC and the AAD cutter sits below that flap. Airtech suggests for all manufacturers to place the cutter above the PC. Airtec approved our Cypres installation before the Infinity went into production. We asked for the cutter to be placed on the kicker flap due to the metal top of our reserve pilot chute. They asked us to make some changes in order for them to approve the install, the changes were made, and the install was approved. You are right that it is more of a rigging issue than a design issue though- you should never be able to rock a reserve PC back and forth, and if you can see the edges of it under the flaps of the rig, there's probably a less than ideal situation there (i.e. loop too long, reserve too big for container, or too much bulk in the center). Quotethe main flap design is not bad but not revolutionary either. in fact it's very similar to what Sunpath has used for a long time now. The angled tab is not what makes our pin cover special- it's simply a feature to help preserve the tab from rough packers that try to force the tab into place past the bottom flap grommet when the bottom flap was not pulled completely closed. What makes our pin cover special is as Slurp stated- the location of the closing loop and the construction of the center flap. If the closing loop is located on or near the reserve container, it will change the geometry of the tuck tab system depending on the length of the closing loop and the size of the parachute in the container. In order for a tuck tab system to work properly, several points need to be aligned properly, consistently, and that's what the Infinity does. Quotethe riser covers... oh boy now I am getting started. you said they are user friendly... I beg to differ. I believe you could still get a riser lock if you place your main riser under the first flap before you close it. the reason this doesn't happen is because the riser covers are cut very loosely. This is simply not true either. In order for a riser cover to lock, the riser needs to pull from under the tuck tab pocket. If it is putting pressure on the underside of the pocket, it increases the bite the pocket has on the tab. With some rigs (esp. those with large pockets) this is a true concern since there isn't much to keep a riser from getting deep under the pocket in a situation such as having a shoulder low on deployment, so it's recommended to place the risers on top of the pocket. The design of the Infintiy secondary riser covers and reserve top flap (that also has the riser cover tuck tab pockets) directs the risers to the outside of the rig, where the risers pull on the covers themselves to open them. The "looseness" that you refer to is a required part of the system to prevent the tuck tabs from having too much pressure on them and getting a bend in them, rendering them all but useless. Quoteand yes.... THEY DO COME OPEN! my freefly partner has 3 Infinitys. on his newest one one of the riser covers is cut 1/4 inch loser than the other one. we do a side by side track off after our routine and I would say 80% of the time I look over and see his riser cover flapping in the wind. at our boogie we asked Kelly personally about it and he told me that was just manufacturing tolerance and there was no way it was more than 1/8 of an inch. I went and got my ruler out and measured just over 1/4 inch... he didn't really have an answer for that, not even offered to fix it or anything... As I remember it, it was not a full 1/4", and I asked you to show me or send me some video of the riser cover opening, which I have yet to see four months later. As you may recall, I was quite surprised to hear about Dave having a problem with our riser covers opening before deployment, because we had never heard of it in the six years of manufacturing the currrent version. If I left you with the impression that I wouldn't fix it, I'm sorry. We always stand behind our products and make right what's wrong. But sometimes, without actually SEEING what's causing the problem, it's hard to FIX the problem. All I can really think is that it can't be that much of a problem if someone with three rigs doesn't feel it necessary to be without one for a week or so to fix the issue. QuoteI do believe that they have a lot of tolerance in their manufacturing lately but I also think that there is a design flaw in the riser cover pocket. look at the way RI is doing that... in my opinion a way better solution. What kind of flaw is this? Is it a safety issue, or durability? I think an explanation is due since you've just announced to the world that we have a "flawed" design with no other description, and it's certainly never been brought to VSE's attention as far as I remember. Quoteback to my freefly partner... his first Infinity was a used container and he loved it. he then ordered a custom rig after a while and was measured by Kelly himself! the lift-web is way too long and the leg-pads are too. he jumped the rig anyway for a while. he then wanted a turn rig so he ordered another one. using the same measurements the rig now fits a lot better but the leg-pads are too short. he asked Kelly for new leg-pads and he sent them to him. you would think the manufacturer knows how the rig he ordered 6 months ago would look like. his leg pads are all black but the replacement ones are black with blue binding tape. he also mentioned the other rig being too big but no action was ever taken. Often, it doesn't matter who takes the measurements, but accurate measurements are always the best place to start. There are still things to interpret and educated guesses to be made. Sometimes we don't get it right the first time, as is the case with everything ever built by man. If the harness is too big and the rig has already been assembled, we will resize the harness and repack the reserve for free if the job requires it, but that also requires the rig to be returned to us so we can do the work on it. If it's never returned to us to be fixed, it can only be assumed that the fit isn't that bad. Dave should be able to tell you that we have worked with him to keep him as happy as we can since we built a completely new rig for him after his second rig was made out of a new batch of cordura that had a different shade that he wasn't happy with. We have all order forms on file dating back to 1991, so I have no explanation for the legpads being taped in the wrong color. I'm sorry if this was a bit long winded, but explanations often take longer than observationsMLKSKY: what year was your Infinity made?VSE on Facebook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 94 #25 September 6, 2006 Thanks for helping us to realize that there is so much more good design that goes into the rig. The Infinity is gaining in popularity out here in Ohio, one big DZ has a bunch for student rigs. My rig has been fantastic. Absolutely like new after 4 years. I've never encountered a loose flap on mine or other's. When did you buy the company and put the new Infinity rig design into production? People should realize it was different. Concerning the "kink" issue: Doesn't the kink mean that there is little benefit of the hip ring junction instead of a std/no hip ring rig? I'm speaking of benefit in terms of the rig not being too stiff/limiting movement...People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
mjosparky 3 #19 September 3, 2006 QuoteWith that said.... I also jump an infinity, for several reasons: You will not find a better designed set of riser covers. They are made as 1 piece vs a 2nd piece sewn in. There are no "special" packing techniques and they wont come open in free fall... ever. (until you deply, of course ) The Main riser hard housings have a really slick design that keeps them from sliding. They are securely fastened using a pressed grommet The main flap on my infinity always stays shut. I've been told that this is because of the placement of the main closing loop (on the bottom flap instead of at the base of the reserve container, it's designed to keep tension on the flap tab even when the geometry shifts if the rig flexes). Infinity switched to this cool angled main tab design, gone are the days of breaking plastic! The design of the reserve container and free bag is very simple and feels at home to all riggers (except maybe those racer-only kinda guys) Infinity's new floating laterals are the freakin sh*t! If you've havent seen these, you should definately check them out. The secondary riser covers are also very cool and low profile. They aren't overly big and again, always stay closed. The customer service is 2nd to none, and I mean that. The pricing for replacement parts is very reasonable as well. Every surface on the infinity is "finished". There is no exposed plastic or unfinished edges. Even the backs of all of the panels and tabs are covered, which really isn't any better, its just not as cheesy Nothing in your post comes close to addressing the problem I am referring to. QuoteAnyways, you asked why I jump the rig that I do, and thats why And no I did not ask you why you jump the rig you do. The OP did.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slurp56 0 #20 September 3, 2006 QuoteAnd no I did not ask you why you jump the rig you do. The OP did. I was going to make 2 posts to seprate the two thoughts, but I figured it was pretty self explanatory. My apologies, I'm still pretty new to this forum stuff ________________________________________ I have proof-read this post 500 times, but I guarantee you'll still manage to find a flaw. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jojo0815 0 #21 September 4, 2006 Quote While I was reading your post, I got the vibe that you are concerned with user error. Most of the situations you have described can be remedied by good body postion, getting the pilot chute away from you when you throw (not drop) it, and paying attention while packing, let alone a gear check... If thats why you are implying, then I agree. If you are crediting the above situations to a fault of the rig design, then I couldn't disagree more. With that said.... I also jump an infinity, for several reasons: You will not find a better designed set of riser covers. They are made as 1 piece vs a 2nd piece sewn in. There are no "special" packing techniques and they wont come open in free fall... ever. (until you deply, of course ) The Main riser hard housings have a really slick design that keeps them from sliding. They are securely fastened using a pressed grommet The main flap on my infinity always stays shut. I've been told that this is because of the placement of the main closing loop (on the bottom flap instead of at the base of the reserve container, it's designed to keep tension on the flap tab even when the geometry shifts if the rig flexes). Infinity switched to this cool angled main tab design, gone are the days of breaking plastic! The design of the reserve container and free bag is very simple and feels at home to all riggers (except maybe those racer-only kinda guys) Infinity's new floating laterals are the freakin sh*t! If you've havent seen these, you should definately check them out. The secondary riser covers are also very cool and low profile. They aren't overly big and again, always stay closed. The customer service is 2nd to none, and I mean that. The pricing for replacement parts is very reasonable as well. Every surface on the infinity is "finished". There is no exposed plastic or unfinished edges. Even the backs of all of the panels and tabs are covered, which really isn't any better, its just not as cheesy The bottom line is, there are a few good rigs on the market, and all of the rigs allow you to skydive relatively safely. Some have options that others dont, like the skyhook or chest rings for example, but that doesnt make or break a rig. People are opinionated and will tell you what they've "heard" but if a design is bad, it wont last long. Figure out which options are important to you, then go to the DZ and look at other peoples rigs and see how those options are built in. Consider advice about which brand to go with, but dont buy something because he/she said it was the best. Anyways, you asked why I jump the rig that I do, and thats why This post kinda infuriates me for a couple of reasons. first of all no rig out there id the be-all of rigging. the infinity is definitely one of the nicer rigs out there but so are many others. I would really like to take the chance and comment some of your points in your post. first off I don't think the harness design is all that smart. the main lift web kinks right above the laterals which ultimately will weaken the lift-web. the new floating laterals are nice but far away from being new. in fact the way the laterals are attached to the containers on the Infinity is not very durable. I have seen them starting to tear at the seam on several rigs now. that also happens on mirages though. the new leg-pads that come with the floating laterals are very bulky and ugly, my opinion.... back in the day manufacturers used to sandwich the cutaway handles between the lift-web which caused some real hard chops with spinning mals. infinity moved the pillow to the inside of the lift-web. Rigging innovations has a sheath around the lift-web that hosts the handle so there is no load on the pocket. suddenly I see Infinitys with the handle sandwiched again. some Infinitys I pack have type 7 front risers and type 8 rear risers on the reserve. some have type 7 for both. their container design is very long so short people will have a hard time getting the rig to fit right. again that's just an esthetics thing. the reserve system is fairly easy to pack, but you have to be aware of the fact that they use a kicker flap for the reserve PC and the AAD cutter sits below that flap. Airtech suggests for all manufacturers to place the cutter above the PC. reason for that being that with a reserve closing loop that is too long can cause it to hang up between the PC and the reserve container flaps. that's why Mirage issued their service bulletin and they moved the cutter above the PC. it's not really a design flaw in the Mirage container but a rigging error and so it can happen to other rigs that have the cutter below the reserve PC. that includes the vector 3 and the infinity. the main flap design is not bad but not revolutionary either. in fact it's very similar to what Sunpath has used for a long time now. the new angled tab is not bad but it is now integrated with the top main flap which also happens to be the bottom reserve flap. so if you are sitting on the floor in the plane a lot and your flap gets damaged it is not something that's easily replaced. the reason why they don't break any more is because they use a thicker stiffener now. at least the old system was field replaceable. the secondary riser covers are nice but again if your packer doesn't know how to use them they can look very ugly... still I like the idea. the riser covers... oh boy now I am getting started. you said they are user friendly... I beg to differ. I believe you could still get a riser lock if you place your main riser under the first flap before you close it. the reason this doesn't happen is because the riser covers are cut very loosely. and yes.... THEY DO COME OPEN! my freefly partner has 3 Infinitys. on his newest one one of the riser covers is cut 1/4 inch loser than the other one. we do a side by side track off after our routine and I would say 80% of the time I look over and see his riser cover flapping in the wind. at our boogie we asked Kelly personally about it and he told me that was just manufacturing tolerance and there was no way it was more than 1/8 of an inch. I went and got my ruler out and measured just over 1/4 inch... he didn't really have an answer for that, not even offered to fix it or anything... after that I have kept an eye on every infinity that comes through our DZ, I have seen a lot of riser covers being lose. I do believe that they have a lot of tolerance in their manufacturing lately but I also think that there is a design flaw in the riser cover pocket. look at the way RI is doing that... in my opinion a way better solution. I just got some replacement cutaway handles in from Infinity that had the velcro sewn to the wrong side of the handle. back to my freefly partner... his first Infinity was a used container and he loved it. he then ordered a custom rig after a while and was measured by Kelly himself! the lift-web is way too long and the leg-pads are too. he jumped the rig anyway for a while. he then wanted a turn rig so he ordered another one. using the same measurements the rig now fits a lot better but the leg-pads are too short. he asked Kelly for new leg-pads and he sent them to him. you would think the manufacturer knows how the rig he ordered 6 months ago would look like. his leg pads are all black but the replacement ones are black with blue binding tape. he also mentioned the other rig being too big but no action was ever taken. I guess I have rambled long enough now... I am not going to tell you how great the rig I jump is or anything like that. don't believe anybody that has a rig that is apparently made by god himself. even that guy gets sloppy some times. as long as he admits it and tries to correct the mistakes that's all good... blue skies... be safe and don't bounce! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmsmith 1 #22 September 4, 2006 I like the JumpShack Racer Elite because they have offered the larger reserve v. main for decades, and they are very comfortable due to their being flexible between the reserve and main pack tray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MLKSKY 0 #23 September 4, 2006 I actually jump an infinity container right now, but it is getting up there in age--the riser covers sometimes pop out. I am ready to get a new custom container and just wanted to get an idea of who was happy with their stuff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KellyF 16 #24 September 5, 2006 Quotefirst off I don't think the harness design is all that smart. the main lift web kinks right above the laterals which ultimately will weaken the lift-web. I've been hearing this statement quite a bit over the last couple of years for some reason. While MANY rigs on the market have a "kink" in the MLW, the only way it will weaken the MLW is if it is loaded in a fashion that harness/container systems don't get loaded. That "kink" will not be there when the jumper is under canopy. Rigs have been built this way for over 25 years, yet I've never heard of a MLW failing because of a "kink". Quotethe new floating laterals are nice but far away from being new. in fact the way the laterals are attached to the containers on the Infinity is not very durable. I have seen them starting to tear at the seam on several rigs now. that also happens on mirages though. We have had prototypes in the field for over a year and over 1000 jumps on a couple of rigs, but we've never had any reports of a durability issue. If no one reports an issue, we can't fix it. The rigs with rigid stabilizers did sometimes have problems with the bottom corners of the backpad coming unstitched, but that has been fixed because people let us know. Quoteback in the day manufacturers used to sandwich the cutaway handles between the lift-web which caused some real hard chops with spinning mals. infinity moved the pillow to the inside of the lift-web. Rigging innovations has a sheath around the lift-web that hosts the handle so there is no load on the pocket. suddenly I see Infinitys with the handle sandwiched again. Look closer at that pocket- the velcro is sewn on in a fashion so that it peels automatically no matter which direction the handle is pulled. Quotesome Infinitys I pack have type 7 front risers and type 8 rear risers on the reserve. some have type 7 for both. The ones with type 8 rear risers are non-articualted harnesses- pretty standard procedure throughout the industry. Quotethe reserve system is fairly easy to pack, but you have to be aware of the fact that they use a kicker flap for the reserve PC and the AAD cutter sits below that flap. Airtech suggests for all manufacturers to place the cutter above the PC. Airtec approved our Cypres installation before the Infinity went into production. We asked for the cutter to be placed on the kicker flap due to the metal top of our reserve pilot chute. They asked us to make some changes in order for them to approve the install, the changes were made, and the install was approved. You are right that it is more of a rigging issue than a design issue though- you should never be able to rock a reserve PC back and forth, and if you can see the edges of it under the flaps of the rig, there's probably a less than ideal situation there (i.e. loop too long, reserve too big for container, or too much bulk in the center). Quotethe main flap design is not bad but not revolutionary either. in fact it's very similar to what Sunpath has used for a long time now. The angled tab is not what makes our pin cover special- it's simply a feature to help preserve the tab from rough packers that try to force the tab into place past the bottom flap grommet when the bottom flap was not pulled completely closed. What makes our pin cover special is as Slurp stated- the location of the closing loop and the construction of the center flap. If the closing loop is located on or near the reserve container, it will change the geometry of the tuck tab system depending on the length of the closing loop and the size of the parachute in the container. In order for a tuck tab system to work properly, several points need to be aligned properly, consistently, and that's what the Infinity does. Quotethe riser covers... oh boy now I am getting started. you said they are user friendly... I beg to differ. I believe you could still get a riser lock if you place your main riser under the first flap before you close it. the reason this doesn't happen is because the riser covers are cut very loosely. This is simply not true either. In order for a riser cover to lock, the riser needs to pull from under the tuck tab pocket. If it is putting pressure on the underside of the pocket, it increases the bite the pocket has on the tab. With some rigs (esp. those with large pockets) this is a true concern since there isn't much to keep a riser from getting deep under the pocket in a situation such as having a shoulder low on deployment, so it's recommended to place the risers on top of the pocket. The design of the Infintiy secondary riser covers and reserve top flap (that also has the riser cover tuck tab pockets) directs the risers to the outside of the rig, where the risers pull on the covers themselves to open them. The "looseness" that you refer to is a required part of the system to prevent the tuck tabs from having too much pressure on them and getting a bend in them, rendering them all but useless. Quoteand yes.... THEY DO COME OPEN! my freefly partner has 3 Infinitys. on his newest one one of the riser covers is cut 1/4 inch loser than the other one. we do a side by side track off after our routine and I would say 80% of the time I look over and see his riser cover flapping in the wind. at our boogie we asked Kelly personally about it and he told me that was just manufacturing tolerance and there was no way it was more than 1/8 of an inch. I went and got my ruler out and measured just over 1/4 inch... he didn't really have an answer for that, not even offered to fix it or anything... As I remember it, it was not a full 1/4", and I asked you to show me or send me some video of the riser cover opening, which I have yet to see four months later. As you may recall, I was quite surprised to hear about Dave having a problem with our riser covers opening before deployment, because we had never heard of it in the six years of manufacturing the currrent version. If I left you with the impression that I wouldn't fix it, I'm sorry. We always stand behind our products and make right what's wrong. But sometimes, without actually SEEING what's causing the problem, it's hard to FIX the problem. All I can really think is that it can't be that much of a problem if someone with three rigs doesn't feel it necessary to be without one for a week or so to fix the issue. QuoteI do believe that they have a lot of tolerance in their manufacturing lately but I also think that there is a design flaw in the riser cover pocket. look at the way RI is doing that... in my opinion a way better solution. What kind of flaw is this? Is it a safety issue, or durability? I think an explanation is due since you've just announced to the world that we have a "flawed" design with no other description, and it's certainly never been brought to VSE's attention as far as I remember. Quoteback to my freefly partner... his first Infinity was a used container and he loved it. he then ordered a custom rig after a while and was measured by Kelly himself! the lift-web is way too long and the leg-pads are too. he jumped the rig anyway for a while. he then wanted a turn rig so he ordered another one. using the same measurements the rig now fits a lot better but the leg-pads are too short. he asked Kelly for new leg-pads and he sent them to him. you would think the manufacturer knows how the rig he ordered 6 months ago would look like. his leg pads are all black but the replacement ones are black with blue binding tape. he also mentioned the other rig being too big but no action was ever taken. Often, it doesn't matter who takes the measurements, but accurate measurements are always the best place to start. There are still things to interpret and educated guesses to be made. Sometimes we don't get it right the first time, as is the case with everything ever built by man. If the harness is too big and the rig has already been assembled, we will resize the harness and repack the reserve for free if the job requires it, but that also requires the rig to be returned to us so we can do the work on it. If it's never returned to us to be fixed, it can only be assumed that the fit isn't that bad. Dave should be able to tell you that we have worked with him to keep him as happy as we can since we built a completely new rig for him after his second rig was made out of a new batch of cordura that had a different shade that he wasn't happy with. We have all order forms on file dating back to 1991, so I have no explanation for the legpads being taped in the wrong color. I'm sorry if this was a bit long winded, but explanations often take longer than observationsMLKSKY: what year was your Infinity made?VSE on Facebook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #25 September 6, 2006 Thanks for helping us to realize that there is so much more good design that goes into the rig. The Infinity is gaining in popularity out here in Ohio, one big DZ has a bunch for student rigs. My rig has been fantastic. Absolutely like new after 4 years. I've never encountered a loose flap on mine or other's. When did you buy the company and put the new Infinity rig design into production? People should realize it was different. Concerning the "kink" issue: Doesn't the kink mean that there is little benefit of the hip ring junction instead of a std/no hip ring rig? I'm speaking of benefit in terms of the rig not being too stiff/limiting movement...People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
