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wmw999 2,123
I've had a couple. I automatically pulled my reserve without cutting away -- in those days, I didn't have a 3-ring, so it was more involved. I have a feeling I'd do the same thing again, but maybe not if I knew I was high enough.
Wendy P.
Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
The OP asked what you would do and WHY.
Lots of "what I would do" and very little on "why."
I'm very surprised to see so many jumpers with such big jump numbers saying things along the lines of, "I'm cutting away first because I don't want the canopies to get entangled if the main comes out after the reserve."
That is not clear thinking in the big picture.
When you have a PCIT and you cutaway the main before it comes out of the container, what have you accomplished?
You've broken the main connection point and nothing more.
If the main comes out after you deploy the reserve, yes, the main could come out and inflate AND get entangled in the reserve.
That's STILL no different than had you simply deployed the reserve without the cutaway.
What IS different is how you would handle the entanglement. Cutaway first and you're hosed with no further options the second those main risers leave your reach.
What IS different is that you can still do the cutaway when/if the main comes out. Think about that and what's going to happen with the main when your reserve is already flying.
Also surprising is how so many are more afraid of the 2-out situation as compared to the entanglement.
Screw that. I'll take a 2-out over an entanglement any day and every day. I have a chance to safely land a 2-out...not so much on an entanglement.
Yes, YMMV. That's why USPA accepts either response as valid for a PCIT. Yes, Pros and Cons about each. I'm of the personal opinion that the pros outweigh the cons of one of them.
Any young jumpers reading this thread:
Your job is to handle this situation by using whatever method you were trained. After you gain more experience, get more comfortable in the sky, and gain more knowledge, you may reach a point where you will be able to make intelligent decisions for yourself on a "what's best for me" basis. The key phrase is "intelligent decisions."
Lots of "what I would do" and very little on "why."
I'm very surprised to see so many jumpers with such big jump numbers saying things along the lines of, "I'm cutting away first because I don't want the canopies to get entangled if the main comes out after the reserve."
That is not clear thinking in the big picture.
When you have a PCIT and you cutaway the main before it comes out of the container, what have you accomplished?
You've broken the main connection point and nothing more.
If the main comes out after you deploy the reserve, yes, the main could come out and inflate AND get entangled in the reserve.
That's STILL no different than had you simply deployed the reserve without the cutaway.
What IS different is how you would handle the entanglement. Cutaway first and you're hosed with no further options the second those main risers leave your reach.
What IS different is that you can still do the cutaway when/if the main comes out. Think about that and what's going to happen with the main when your reserve is already flying.
Also surprising is how so many are more afraid of the 2-out situation as compared to the entanglement.
Screw that. I'll take a 2-out over an entanglement any day and every day. I have a chance to safely land a 2-out...not so much on an entanglement.
Yes, YMMV. That's why USPA accepts either response as valid for a PCIT. Yes, Pros and Cons about each. I'm of the personal opinion that the pros outweigh the cons of one of them.
Any young jumpers reading this thread:
Your job is to handle this situation by using whatever method you were trained. After you gain more experience, get more comfortable in the sky, and gain more knowledge, you may reach a point where you will be able to make intelligent decisions for yourself on a "what's best for me" basis. The key phrase is "intelligent decisions."
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
JackC1 0
^^ yup.
As I see it, with a PCIT I have an immediate problem that needs fixing, and that is I've blazed passed my pull altitude and I'm still in freefall. Chopping will not solve that problem or even improve things whereas pulling silver (hopefully) will. Fix the problem you've got.
If your main is still attached to you, then you retain the option to do something with it if you end up with two out. However, if you've already chopped and the departing main risers wrap around your reserve on their way past, there's not a lot else you can do.
As I see it, with a PCIT I have an immediate problem that needs fixing, and that is I've blazed passed my pull altitude and I'm still in freefall. Chopping will not solve that problem or even improve things whereas pulling silver (hopefully) will. Fix the problem you've got.
If your main is still attached to you, then you retain the option to do something with it if you end up with two out. However, if you've already chopped and the departing main risers wrap around your reserve on their way past, there's not a lot else you can do.
manseman 0
Quote
That's STILL no different than had you simply deployed the reserve without the cutaway.
Sure it is. An already cutaway main may not even leave the bag before the risers clear the harness. Better or worse? More or less risk of entanglement? Don't know, but it's clearly two different scenarios.
ps5601 0
As someone who has had a pilot chute in tow, and cut away before pulling reserve, my rationale is simple.
Once I have started the deployment sequence for my main (which means I have pulled the main handle), if I have a problem I am chopping and then pulling reserve.
The only exception that I can think of to that at the moment is a horseshoe, which I would try (no more than twice) to clear, prior to doing EPs.
The argument (in my mind) that cutting away first wastes time is rubbish, as this takes only a fraction of a second, and unless you pulled your main really low it should not be of consequence. I'd probably waste more time checking an automatic cut away then just getting on with it.
The other argument - departing risers of the main could entangle the reserve as it deploys has merit - but once you are in pilot chute in tow situations you are in a pretty bad place and no-one knows the best course of action for sure.
Blue skies
Paul
Once I have started the deployment sequence for my main (which means I have pulled the main handle), if I have a problem I am chopping and then pulling reserve.
The only exception that I can think of to that at the moment is a horseshoe, which I would try (no more than twice) to clear, prior to doing EPs.
The argument (in my mind) that cutting away first wastes time is rubbish, as this takes only a fraction of a second, and unless you pulled your main really low it should not be of consequence. I'd probably waste more time checking an automatic cut away then just getting on with it.
The other argument - departing risers of the main could entangle the reserve as it deploys has merit - but once you are in pilot chute in tow situations you are in a pretty bad place and no-one knows the best course of action for sure.
Blue skies
Paul
piisfish 135
I had a couple of PC's in tow, resolved them differently everytime because they were different...(pull the pin clear with the bridle, elbowed the dbag out etc.)
Then once it gave me a very bad spinning linetwists which I had to chop.
I learnt the "soft" way that you need to take care of your gear, and when your PC seems tired, it's time to retire it and replace with a young one. Never had the problem again.
Then once it gave me a very bad spinning linetwists which I had to chop.
I learnt the "soft" way that you need to take care of your gear, and when your PC seems tired, it's time to retire it and replace with a young one. Never had the problem again.
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM
DocPop 1
It seems to me that there is no right answer here (as acknowledged by the USPA) in that once in a PCIT situation you can't know if the right thing is to cutaway or not, until you have done it and seen the outcome.
My personal choice is not to alter my practiced EPs in the middle of a mal. I will cutaway and then deploy the reserve.
That decision could kill me, or it could save me. I won't know until it happens.
FWIW I jump a pull-out so technically I can't really have a PCIT. It would have to be an open container situation which would make it a horseshoe.
My personal choice is not to alter my practiced EPs in the middle of a mal. I will cutaway and then deploy the reserve.
That decision could kill me, or it could save me. I won't know until it happens.
FWIW I jump a pull-out so technically I can't really have a PCIT. It would have to be an open container situation which would make it a horseshoe.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."
~ CanuckInUSA
~ CanuckInUSA
QuoteQuote
That's STILL no different than had you simply deployed the reserve without the cutaway.
Sure it is. An already cutaway main may not even leave the bag before the risers clear the harness. Better or worse? More or less risk of entanglement? Don't know, but it's clearly two different scenarios.
Excuse me. Please read again:
"If the main comes out after you deploy the reserve, yes, the main could come out and inflate AND get entangled in the reserve.
That's STILL no different than had you simply deployed the reserve without the cutaway. "
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
QuoteIt seems to me that there is no right answer here (as acknowledged by the USPA) in that once in a PCIT situation you can't know if the right thing is to cutaway or not,
...and that's the sad part, IMO, because people reject the reality of an entanglement outcome.
Quote...until you have done it and seen the outcome.
...and that's the questionable part.
Please don't get the idea that just because it was handled one way, using one method, that is' going to go the same the next time using the same method.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
Quoteonce in a PCIT situation you can't know if the right thing is to cutaway or not,
Given that, why make the choice that is final compared to the choice that you can modify at a later time. Once you pull the cutaway, there is no way to put it back. If you do not pull the cutaway, you still have the option to do it later if the need should arise.
With no load on the 3-ring, and nothing prompting you to cutaway, why do it?
What you are you afraid of, an entanglement? If you pull the cutaway before the reserve, you lose control over the main entirely. If it deciedes to deploy, it will do so and depart of it's own accord, maybe at an opportune time, maybe not.
If you leave the handle in place, and main deploys, you have the option to chop it or not, and if so, when to chop it. If you can achieve a stable side-by-side or bi-plane, then don't cutaway, just ride them both in. If they want to fight or downplane, get them seperated, and choose the ideal moment to cutaway when the risk of an entanglement is lowest.
If you're concerned about the main entangling with the reserve during deployment, and a situation occurs where they could entagle, they will likely do so if the main is connected or not. The difference is that if the main is connected, you can either control when to cutaway, or if the entanglement cannot be cleared, you're securely attached to both canopies, and ready to take advantage of the 'more square footage at impact' scenario.
It's just stupid to pull a handle that you have no reason to pull. You have a limited number of options available to you with regards to your handles, and to use one up for no reason just doesn't make sense. Stop the freefall, then see what happens.
Stopping the freefall is job one. Dealing with whatever transpires comes after that.
cderham 0
This is directly responding to you DocPop but kinda is due to this statement 
Quote
My personal choice is not to alter my practiced EPs in the middle of a mal. I will cutaway and then deploy the reserve.
That decision could kill me, or it could save me. I won't know until it happens.
Good discussion on Skydive Radio show 119 I believe with Frankie from Skydive Chicago. Talks about his double mal due to cutting away a pilot chute in tow before reserve deployment.
direct show link:
http://hw.libsyn.com/p/d/9/9/d993f6e21d1b381a/sr119_07_15_09.mp3?sid=b204e778a2370add0b3bbe1b5a0444d0&l_sid=21714&l_eid=&l_mid=2011400
Chris
It's Jimmy Time!!
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Team-Fast-As-Fuck/6099474213
DocPop 1
Some good info there, Dave, and I can't disagree with anything that you say.
The only defense I have for my thoughts in the previous post are these:
1. I have not had a cutaway yet and I think it will be better for me to go with the muscle memory that I have practiced (ie. both handles). It is true to say that I am nervous about my first mal and the thought of having to consciously change my EPs in the middle of a high speed mal make me even more nervous.
2. I do think that a cutaway main is less likely to inflate if the D-bag escapes the container, compared with a main that is still "anchored" by the risers.
Please note that above is just my line of thinking and, as stated in my previous post, I acknowledge that it may turn out to be wrong on the day.
I hope you don't take this as dismissing your points, which are very valid, just trying to explain my thoughts.
The only defense I have for my thoughts in the previous post are these:
1. I have not had a cutaway yet and I think it will be better for me to go with the muscle memory that I have practiced (ie. both handles). It is true to say that I am nervous about my first mal and the thought of having to consciously change my EPs in the middle of a high speed mal make me even more nervous.
2. I do think that a cutaway main is less likely to inflate if the D-bag escapes the container, compared with a main that is still "anchored" by the risers.
Please note that above is just my line of thinking and, as stated in my previous post, I acknowledge that it may turn out to be wrong on the day.
I hope you don't take this as dismissing your points, which are very valid, just trying to explain my thoughts.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."
~ CanuckInUSA
~ CanuckInUSA
DocPop 1
QuoteThis is directly responding to you DocPop but kinda is due to this statement
Quote
My personal choice is not to alter my practiced EPs in the middle of a mal. I will cutaway and then deploy the reserve.
That decision could kill me, or it could save me. I won't know until it happens.
Good discussion on Skydive Radio show 119 I believe with Frankie from Skydive Chicago. Talks about his double mal due to cutting away a pilot chute in tow before reserve deployment.
direct show link:
http://hw.libsyn.com/p/d/9/9/d993f6e21d1b381a/sr119_07_15_09.mp3?sid=b204e778a2370add0b3bbe1b5a0444d0&l_sid=21714&l_eid=&l_mid=2011400
That is an interesting discussion.
However, n=1. It is not a scientific study and nobody can say what would have happened if his main had deployed without a cutaway.
Thanks for posting. Food for thought....
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."
~ CanuckInUSA
~ CanuckInUSA
Ron 7
Quote1. I have not had a cutaway yet and I think it will be better for me to go with the muscle memory that I have practiced (ie. both handles).
Are you going to cutaway a hard pull as well? If not, then you already have two procedures and either one of those is applicable to a PCIT.
I personally, will pull the reserve first.... My line of thinking is that it is a high speed mal, and you get zero points for impact craters.
Additionally, I reserve the ability to cutaway as soon as I get a reserve over my head. So I still have some choices.
There is no right or wrong here.... I just want you to realize that if you are not going to cutaway a hard main pull that you already have two emergency procedures.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
DocPop 1
QuoteQuote1. I have not had a cutaway yet and I think it will be better for me to go with the muscle memory that I have practiced (ie. both handles).
Are you going to cutaway a hard pull as well?
Yes, probably.
Would that be wrong?
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."
~ CanuckInUSA
~ CanuckInUSA
Ron 7
QuoteWould that be wrong?
Wrong???? Depends on how you want to look at it.
I think so... the SIM agrees:
2. Procedures:
(a) In the case of no main pilot chute deployment (e.g., missing or stuck handle, ripcord system container lock), deploy the reserve.
The problem is with nothing out you are doing 120 MPH and quickly running out of time.
So for a TOTAL, the best practice is to stop the skydive by going directly to the reserve.
Now for a PCIT.... It is a gamble either way.
I treat a PCIT like a total since the speed and the time you have left is the same.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
DocPop 1
Thanks.
I can see that in a hard pull situation cutaway is unnecessary and wastes time/altitude.
I can see that in a hard pull situation cutaway is unnecessary and wastes time/altitude.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."
~ CanuckInUSA
~ CanuckInUSA
billvon 2,400
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>Yes, probably.
>Would that be wrong?
I don't think so. It doesn't take much more time, it is the same scenario in both cases (so easier to train for) and can help avoid two-outs.
>Would that be wrong?
I don't think so. It doesn't take much more time, it is the same scenario in both cases (so easier to train for) and can help avoid two-outs.
JackC1 0
QuoteI think it will be better for me to go with the muscle memory that I have practiced (ie. both handles).
I remember reading an incident report where some guy found, while in freefall, that his reserve handle was missing, completely gone. So his muscle memory kicked in and did what it was trained to do in the event of an emergency, he cut away his main. This did not improve the situation. So there he was in freefall, with no main and no way to pull his reserve. He said he'd even identified the exact point in the field where he would bounce when his AAD came to the rescue.
Muscle memory is all well and good but you need to be able to override it with your brain memory.
Ballistic deployment system! Someone else can do the test jumps.
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