PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway?

[tbrown 26]

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I think your decision to not cutaway first was correct, and what happened justifies that. The result if you had cutaway first would have been a lower opening.

That's one other thing I've been thinking about. Somebody on these forums once called the cutaway handle "the handle that won't save your life" in earlier PCIT forum discussions. If I had decided to cutaway first, I would have had to take the time to grab, peel and pull the red handle first, and burned off hundreds of feet doing so, before pulling silver and ending the skydive. My hard deck alarm would've gone off for sure. My main bridle would have still grabbed and destroyed my freebag.

It might have made a difference if the freebag hadn't cleared the bridle But that's the heart of the problem with PCIT's - they're a crapshoot malfunction whether you cutaway or not. Anyone who survives a PCIT is lucky, no matter what they do. The only real solution is another evolution to our gear and I don't know what that would entail.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[airtwardo 6]

A pullout?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[popsjumper 2]

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Why would chopping first lead to less chance of the main coming out?

It wouldn't.

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If it does open but is not attached to the harness it can still cause problems. Even worse problems the way I see it , if it entangles with your reserve you won't be able to reach it.

Bingo.

This fits what I do and teach.
PCIT = Deploy reserve.

Regardless of your procedure, the main could still come out after you deploy the reserve.

Cutaway first: Main gets entangled and the risers are out of your reach...you're hosed with no real options.

No cutaway first: At least you have one more chance to save your life as small as it may be. If you have access to those risers of the entangled main, you may be able to pull the main out of the reserve.

But, you can simply prevent that.

If you deploy the reserve and the main comes out...WTH, THEN cutaway the main and clear the risers before it inflates up into the reserve.

MY PCIT:
Deployed reserve with one hand and held the main in the pack with the other at the same time.

Reeled in the main PC and flew and landed the canopy with one hand...two toggles, one PC and one reserve handle in one hand, holding main tray closed with the other.

Not a big deal after the reserve cleared the main PC and opened.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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I'm definitely of the belief that I'd rather have 2 canopies out than none. I'll dump my reserve on a pc-in-tow and then deal with 2 canopies if need be. When I'm plummeting towards the earth at 120 mph I don't want to waste time cutting away something which isn't even out.

It is all a personal decision though. I'm a lot less afraid of landing with too much canopy out than too little. I just figure my odds are better with the second.
W

+1

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[jacketsdb23 45]

Makes me cringe just thinking about it. I suppose I've always been taught and feel that if I ever throw the pilot chute out, I'll cut away, and then pull reserve.

I don't like the malfunction, options, or possibilities (other than living through it). Nasty Malfunction and I hope I never have to deal with it.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[tbrown 26]

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A pullout?

I once considered a pullout, but they have their own set of problems. Technical arguments aside, I think the market has already made the decision, with well over 90% choosing throwaway after more than 30 years, myself included. Throwaway can be alright for those who choose, but I'm not one of them.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[normiss 620]

This is what I believe most of us think.

Muscle memory will have the majority of us going cutaway then reserve.
Hopefully not pausing in consideration.

I've always leaned towards the reserve first. Many posts here reinforce that thought.

[format 0]

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MY PCIT:
Deployed reserve with one hand and held the main in the pack with the other at the same time.

Wise guy, very smart at least.

[diablopilot 2]

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It might have made a difference if the freebag hadn't cleared the bridle But that's the heart of the problem with PCIT's - they're a crapshoot malfunction whether you cutaway or not.

And if it had entangled with the bridle, it's still very likely that you would have had a reserve deployment. Thats one of the reasons for the free bag system.

There is no way you're going to be able to affect any change on an main reserve entanglement when you've already cut away the main. 2 out is a much more manageable situation.

To really simplify it, more square footage is better than less.

From a standpoint of time it will take you about 2 seconds to locate grab and extract a breakaway handle if you've practiced you handle locations regularly. That's 400 ft of altitude lost in freefall. now add another second, to second and a half to locate and pull the reserve handle, plus 3 seconds for a reserve inflation. Thats 5 to 6 seconds or more, assuming your hand didn't slip off the breakaway handle, you were able to find it, you remembered to "peel, then punch" through the velcro, you located and pulled your reserve handle without trouble, and your pilot chute launched cleanly.

I think you did the right thing. Job well done. I assume you'd go straight to reserve if you were unable to locate your main handle? In that case how is this different?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[jimmytavino 16]

good job tbrown...

i too,,, towed a PC. Long ago...
Hand deployed from a bellyband pouch....and of course before the dreaded TWisted Belly BAnd "phenomena" was common enough to be understood and avoided...
Got Lucky, when at about a grand i yanked the blasthandle and fired a 26 foot reserve up through the mess behind me which included the main bag and 5 or 6 feet of suspension lines. ( the PC had pulled through the twist, far enough to extract the pin and allow the main d bag to get away)...
I FELT the bag bouncing around on the back of my legs... I didn't cutaway . The rig was equippped with R 3s' That would have burned precious altitude... i DID however take a quick moment to get FLAT and squared away in the air, and as soon as the main bag fell back onto my legs, i fired the reserve..( piggyback rig ) I had been previously head down AND feet down and spinning, since i was hung from the hip, where the twist occured,,,,, nasty situation for sure...
i was lucky.... but i also maintained as much control of the situation as i could,,, and felt like my decisions to NOT "just fire the reserve" while spinning but rather get flat and stable again were sound ...
ymmv

OH yes... How was the 10 way dive????

jimmy

[Decodiver 0]

If it's just a PCIT I may try and pull the pin myself (altitude permitting), if I'm through my hard deck or I can't reach the pin I'm going to reserve straight away.

Cheers,

Coops.

[airtwardo 6]

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If it's just a PCIT I may try and pull the pin myself (altitude permitting), if I'm through my hard deck or I can't reach the pin I'm going to reserve straight away.

Cheers,

Coops.

Might want to rethink that one...if the pin is jammed in a way that the force of the pilot chute won't pull it, it's unlikely you will be able to by reaching back.

You'll more likely than not just be burning altitude and causing an instability problem you'll need to correct prior to reserve launch.



~Toss a pilot chute out the car window at 120 and try to hang onto it, THAT'S what pulling on the pin...

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Andy9o8 0]

Really glad you didn't dent yourself (or anything else) there, Tom.

I mean no disrespect to Jim or Dan; but for all the reasons stated in this thread in the "don't cutaway" column, I'd still consider a PCIT to be more of a total than a partial; and I'd go straight to silver. Less loss of altitude at terminal, and more nylon over my head when the shit from the fan is already spraying, seems the best bet for me.

And yeah; how was that 10-way?

[Decodiver 0]

Airtwardo good advice thanks.

Bearing in mind I generally pull at 950-1000 meters by the time I've looked over my shoulder and ascertained what it is I'm at my hard deck and going silver, if it happened higher on the odd pull I do between 1500 - 2000 I'd probably try the pin.

[PiLFy 0]

OK, Newb questions I'm not seeing here. If the Main decides to deploy while the Reserve is inflating. Are you not dewercs? Would not cutting it away first, clear it out of the way? If it should open @that critical point? Also, I'm aware most biplanes are stable. Those biplanes usually have the reserve behind the main. Wouldn't the faster(?) main push the reserve in front of it, potentially causing a downplane?

[Andy9o8 0]

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OK, Newb questions I'm not seeing here. If the Main decides to deploy while the Reserve is inflating. Are you not dewercs? Would not cutting it away first, clear it out of the way? If it should open @that critical point? Also, I'm aware most biplanes are stable. Those biplanes usually have the reserve behind the main. Wouldn't the faster(?) main push the reserve in front of it, potentially causing a downplane?

Some (the "cutaways") argue the point you raise. That possibility cannot eliminated.

Others (the "don't cutaways") say that if the main does deploy, that will be because the reserve launching from its container lessens the pressure against the top wall of the main container, allowing the main to launch. But by that sequence, the reserve will probably be inflated, or at least further into its deployment sequence, than the main. Then, at that point - when the reserve has decelerated you, or at least it's launched, you can still cut away the main. Also, if you're in a 2-out situation, you still can always cut away the main if it downplanes or if you don't want to risk the possibility of a last-moment downplane.

There's no single correct answer, which is why the PCIT is a nasty mal.

(p.s., I had to look up "dewercs" to know what you meant.)

[davelepka 4]

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Would not cutting it away first, clear it out of the way?

Cutting away first takes away your ability to control any part of the main canopy. If you don't cut away first, you at least have the options of cutting away or not, and when if you do cutaway.

Think of it this way, two canopies deploying next to each other are like two loops. Up from one riser, across the canopy and down to the other riser. These two loops, without and free-swinging 'ends' can bump into each other, and exist without entanglment, as we have seen many times on CRW jumps. It's actually impressive some of the CRW collisions/collapses that clear themselves and leave two good canopies flying away from each other. Either way, that's essentailly what you have with two canopies deploying next to each other with no cutaway.

Now change that, and pull the cutaway first. Some point to the riser covers and unloaded 3-ring system as being likely to contain the risers, and keep them out of the way. This might be true, until the reserve risers deploy out from under the main risers, and shove them off to the side. If you cutaway, and the main stays put, the main risers are now free to swing around with as much line as they can pull from the main pack tray. Maybe not the best thing when deploying your last parachute (remember, even though your main is still in the container, you pulled the handle, so now it's just dead weight).

Scenario two, you pull the cutaway, and the force of the reserve either leaving the container or actually opening dislodges the main from the container, and the PC pulls it skyward, trailing lines, canopy and your risers (swinging all over the place) right past your last parachute. Now the concept of the two closed 'loops' is gone, and there are pieces and parts of the main free to grab, entangle or twist around anything it wants.

The solution is to not cut away. Leave the main connected, pull the reserve and deal with whatever happens. Maybe the risers and main stay put, and you have a 'normal' reserve ride to the ground, and you don't have to look for your main.

Maybe the main comes out at some point duruing the reserve deployment, again, it's a wait and see deal. If the main is inhibiting the inflation of the reserve, and you have a pair of streamers, you might need to cutaway at that point.

Maybe the canopies deploy right next to each other, and settle into a nice bi-plane, so you ride them both down and land 300+ sq ft of fabric.

Maybe they both inflate fully, and then start to fight each other, ending up in a downplane. You don't want to land that, but your advantage is that a downplane means the two canopies are as far apart as they can get, so a cutaway is likely to be clean, and you're left to land your reserve on it's own.

To summarize - cutaway first, and you have one option left, that being fire the reserve and see what happens. You can't do anything but that.

Fire the reserve first and see what happens, with the cutaway handle still in place as an option for you to deal with whatever you're looking at.

On top of it all is the time factor. A PC in tow is damn near terminal, so even a few seconds to locate and pull the cutaway handle will eat 100's of feet. Consindering the number of people who have gone in under partially infalted reserves, a couple hundred feet can literally make the difference between life and death.

Stop the ride, see what's what, proceed accordingly.

[PiLFy 0]

Hu_boy... I'm glad I like to pull high. I'll have an extra sec to flip a coin. Thanx for the explanations, guys.

[ozzy13 0]

H. Equipment emergency procedures

total malfunction

Note: Some schools teach partial malfunction procedures as an alternative to the following procedures for when the parachute has been activated but has failed to deploy.

1. Return to the arch position.

2. Ripcord systems: Discard the main ripcord if extracted.

3. Look for and locate the reserve ripcord handle.

4. Pull it all the way out to activate the reserve parachute.

5. Arch and check over the right shoulder for reserve pilot chute deployment.

partial malfunction

Note: On single-operation systems, pulling the reserve ripcord releases the main canopy first before deploying the reserve. Partial malfunction procedures for a single-operation system (SOS) are the same as for a total malfunction.

1. Check altitude.

2. Return to the arch position.

3. Ripcord systems only: Discard the main ripcord.

4. Locate and grasp the cutaway handle.

5. Locate the reserve ripcord handle.

6. Pull the cutaway handle until no lower than 1,000 feet.

7. Pull the reserve ripcord handle immediately after cutting away orby 1,000 feet, regardless of stability, to initiate reserve deployment.

8. Arch and check over the right shoulder for reserve pilot chute deployment.

9. Cut away above 1,000 feet.

a. If a malfunction procedure has not resolved the problem by then, deploy the reserve (requires a cutaway with an SOS system).

b. In the event of any malfunction and regardless of the planned procedure or equipment, the reserve ripcord must be pulled by no lower than 1,000 feet.

other unusual situations
1. Premature container opening in freefall (handdeployment only):

a. Attempt to locate and deploy the pilot chute first (no more than two attempts or two seconds, whichever comes first).

b. If the pilot chute can't be located after two tries or if deploying the pilot chute results in a partial malfunction, cut away and deploy the reserve.

2. Both parachutes deployed:

a. Biplane

(1) Do not cut away.

(2) Steer the front canopy gently using toggles or leave the brakes stowed and steer by pulling on the rear risers.

(3) Leave the brakes stowed on the back canopy.

(4) Make a parachute landing fall on landing.

b. Side-by-side (two alternatives)

side-by-side alternative one
If the two canopies are not tangled, cut away and fly the reserve to a safe landing.

side-by-side alternative two
(1) Steer the dominant (larger) canopy gently using toggles or leave the brakes stowed and steer by pulling on the rear risers.

(2) Leave the brakes stowed on the other canopy.

(3) Make a parachute landing fall on landing.

c. Downplane: Cut away the main canopy.
Illustration 4-A.4
Illustration 4-A.4. When both canopies deploy, they tend to stabilize into one of three configurations shown.

3. Canopy collision:

a. Jumpers must avoid collisions with other jumpers under open parachutes.

b. If a collision is imminent, in most cases both jumpers should steer to the right.

c. If two jumpers collide and entangle, they must communicate their intentions before taking further action.

d. If it is too low for a safe cutaway (below 1,000 feet) and thecanopies are uncontrollable, both jumpers should deploy their reserves.

Note: Deploying the reserve on a single-operation system necessitates a cutaway.

premature deployment in aircraft

1. The student should attempt to contain the open parachute and inform the instructor.

2. If the parachute goes out the door, the student must follow immediately before being extracted.

Its all in the sims section 4 cat A

http://www.uspa.org/SIM.aspx

This malfunction is a fast one. Not much time to think. Try to keep it as simple as possible Nothing out go to silver. Something out cut away and open reserve is what i was told. It is funny because when I went for my Tandem rating it was different. In tandem course they teach if Drogue is out but when pulling deployment handle if nothing happens go straight to reserve. Procedure is to not cut away. I always wondered why they teach the opposite in FJC and Tandem rating. Maybe its to keep it simpler for the student I don't know.

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[ufk22 32]

Just my personal take on this, not telling anyone what is the "right" answer, and part of this concerns your EP procedures (one hand on each handle vs both hands on each).
I've always been a one-hand-on-each, even though I was trained on an SOS system.
I've had 2 PCIT's. 1st time, when I brought in both hands, I could feel the main release, normal canopy. I was using a non-zp collapsable, but lots of jumps on it. Learned to replace non-zp pilot chutes on a regular basis, even if the PC and kill line look ok.
2nd time, a packer misrouted my PC bridle, container lock with PCIT. Brought both hands in, pull 1-pull 2. I was under canopy as high or higher than the other 12 people in our group. Learned to always check bridal routing when using a packer.
Qualifiers;
1. I exercise my three-rings once a month
2. I clean and lube my cut-away cable once a month
3. I jump a moderately loaded (1.5) stiletto. If my body position isn't perfect, which it probably won't be after executing EP's it always opens in a turn, 90-180.
I don't want my main wrapping itself around my reserve.
4. I do a quick EP practice on every jump, last thing I do before setting up in the door.
5. I can look, grab and pull both handles in 3 seconds or less.
My advice;
1. don't do things to get yourself unstable at/during/after pull time. Trying to reach around and feel for or grab your bridle is NOT the thing to do. Bringing in both hands will get you a little head down and will clear a pilot chute hesitation. Anything more is a waste of time and altitude.
2. learn to feel your deployment. This will let you know if something isn't right faster than waiting and looking. I can even feel if a packer left excess unstowed line.
3. don't buy into the "I don't need to vigorously toss my PC" school of thought. Tossing it out does two things, it gets the PC out into the cleanest air, and also pre-extends the bridle as much as possible, helping to avoid PC-in-the-burble and knots-entanglement of the bridle.
I'm not saying cut-then-deploy is always right for PCIT, just that it is the answer for me.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[ufk22 32]

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Hu_boy... I'm glad I like to pull high. I'll have an extra sec to flip a coin. Thanx for the explanations, guys.

Time to decide which method will be your method. Then, practice, practice, practice.
Having to think about this when it's happening will burn a lot more altitude the executing EP's. Even USPA doesn't have one definitive answer for this one, but you better have one. Decide now which is right for you and don't 2nd guess this decision in the air.
Either solution is better than a too-low reserve deployment

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[PiLFy 0]

I vas making Amerikanski joke. Thank You. I do realize this.

[sundevil777 93]

My habit is to look to the right and see the PC pulling my main bag up. I don't think it causes much difference in my shoulders being level, and I bring my head back down as soon as I can. I think it is worth knowing that the main did actually lift off, plus I jump a big canopy that isn't so sensitive to body position.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[JanuszPS 0]

There should be one more option - pull it yourself.

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Might want to rethink that one...if the pin is jammed in a way that the force of the pilot chute won't pull it, it's unlikely you will be able to by reaching back.

You'll more likely than not just be burning altitude and causing an instability problem you'll need to correct prior to reserve launch.

~Toss a pilot chute out the car window at 120 and try to hang onto it, THAT'S what pulling on the pin...Wink

I'm not an expert by any means with thousand of jumps, but I have completely different opinion based on my own experience.
One day I have swapped canopies in my container from Cobalt 120 to Cobalt 150 as I feel more comfy under 150 doing WS jumps. The container is Omega SS sized for canopies up to 150. I also extended the closing loop, but I was still struggled to close the container - took me more that two attempts. I thought that the PC is large enough to pull the pin from the loop no matter what (up to reasonable extend).
Because it was a cloudy day while getting closer to the clouds and opening altitude I decided that this time I will open above them thus higher than usually. So I collapsed all wings and pulled at about 1100-1000m and how surprise I was as nothing happened. While having collapsed wings I looked back and saw perfectly inflated PC in tow (I have .55 century, so no evidence on the video). I run quickly through the options and decided that I don't want to use the reserve - simple as that. So what was my next step? I moved both my arms symmetrically (not to cause any stability issues) to the main closing flap I touched the bridle (it is quite difficult to grab it) and before I realized the PC opened the container and inflation occurred with a twist which cleared itself. The fact is that it is difficult to pull the bridle, but is quite simple to push it to one side causing the pin movement.
I don't know what I would do if I was pulling at a normal altitude which is for me about 900/800m on a WS jump. I remember going though the options and the sequence of events was: pull the silver and than cut away for the sake of not having the two out in a WS jump as the container might be just closed by the very end of the pin.

That's the link to the very boring movie with cobalt openings including the one with PCIT, roll up to 2:16
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ-lw83XxbE
I arched and pulled at 2:18, I made up my mind at 2:20/21, than reached my back at 2:22/23 and the canopy was out at 2:24.

Since my AFF I have had one thought in my mind that if I have the PCIT, first I will try to help it open (altitude depending) and after one unsuccessful attempt I will go with the EP.
The same was with my mal. Few years ago there was a fatality of a quite experienced jumper who was in a spin under perfectly inflated canopy while spinning on his back due to the line twist - he fought till the impact. There was a list of the reasons why he died and recommendation what to do. So I made up my mind what to do in the situation like that and I had a plan. So when I was exactly in the same position, spinning 100km/h down on my back, after two attempts I just cut away. So for me the answer is, if you have some plan what to do in an identified situation you are one step ahead and follow your plan. If there are some other factors and deviations from your plan (ie. lower altitude, something unexpected etc) and you are surprised buy it, stick to the simple EP straight away which in my case would be the one written above.

Well, there is lots of wisdom in what all of you experienced guys are saying, but sometimes it seams that the less favourable options are better. The skydiving is a little bit of lottery and that day I took the third option which was correct. For me the reserve is the last resort, however I don't have any greater fear to use it as I've done it once before that jump. But I wanted so badly to be on the next load that I didn't bothered to use it ;-)

sorry for long post

regards

J.

Back to Poland... back home.

[sundevil777 93]

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I don't know what I would do if I was pulling at a normal altitude which is for me about 900/800m on a WS jump. I remember going though the options and the sequence of events was: pull the silver and than cut away for the sake of not having the two out in a WS jump as the container might be just closed by the very end of the pin

I don't see how the decision to cutaway first or not is affected by how much you think the pin might still be 'engaged'.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am