RTB 0
billvon 2,396
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>It's not that hard to remember, total = direct to reserve. Partial =
> cutaway, then reserve.
Easy to remember but may be hard to implement.
Scenario: You pull. Nothing happens. You look behind you and see some stuff madly oscillating in the wind. Looks like a black thing and some white stuff; it's buffeting too fast to see exactly what it is, and it's in a place that's very awkward to look.
What do you do? Is it a PC-in-tow, an out of sequence deployment that got 'stuck,' an open container with a stuck bag, an open container with a killed PC that won't lift the main out, a PC stuck on legstrap hardware, or a suspension line that got entangled with the closing loop grommet? Is it a total or not?
We teach new jumpers to _always_ cut away first, even from a total, simply because it can sometimes be hard to tell a total from a PC in tow from a PC in burble etc. Once they get off student status we tell them it's now their choice, but I always recommend cutting away if _anything_ (even a PC) is deployed. By the same token, there is a great advantage in having procedures that seem simple to you (as long as they cover all common scenarios) so often it's a good idea to just stick with what you've got.
> cutaway, then reserve.
Easy to remember but may be hard to implement.
Scenario: You pull. Nothing happens. You look behind you and see some stuff madly oscillating in the wind. Looks like a black thing and some white stuff; it's buffeting too fast to see exactly what it is, and it's in a place that's very awkward to look.
What do you do? Is it a PC-in-tow, an out of sequence deployment that got 'stuck,' an open container with a stuck bag, an open container with a killed PC that won't lift the main out, a PC stuck on legstrap hardware, or a suspension line that got entangled with the closing loop grommet? Is it a total or not?
We teach new jumpers to _always_ cut away first, even from a total, simply because it can sometimes be hard to tell a total from a PC in tow from a PC in burble etc. Once they get off student status we tell them it's now their choice, but I always recommend cutting away if _anything_ (even a PC) is deployed. By the same token, there is a great advantage in having procedures that seem simple to you (as long as they cover all common scenarios) so often it's a good idea to just stick with what you've got.
"there is a great advantage in having procedures that seem simple to you (as long as they cover all common scenarios) so often it's a good idea to just stick with what you've got"
I'm a big fan of the KISS principle, and to my mind having newbies and lowtimers (no offence to lowtimers!) taught only one procedure is in keeping with this.
If you give a student, or lowtimer, a choice of procedures, there is a definite probability that they will inevitably make the wrong choice.
In terms of numbers for risk assessment, it is not unusual to assume a 3 to 10% "wrong decision" rate (human factor failures) for, say, process plant control room operators, during high stress events.
Having only one set of proecures reduces this "wrong decision" rate significantly.
Not a big deal for a PC in tow, but could be significant for other 'normal' malfunctions....
I'm a big fan of the KISS principle, and to my mind having newbies and lowtimers (no offence to lowtimers!) taught only one procedure is in keeping with this.
If you give a student, or lowtimer, a choice of procedures, there is a definite probability that they will inevitably make the wrong choice.
In terms of numbers for risk assessment, it is not unusual to assume a 3 to 10% "wrong decision" rate (human factor failures) for, say, process plant control room operators, during high stress events.
Having only one set of proecures reduces this "wrong decision" rate significantly.
Not a big deal for a PC in tow, but could be significant for other 'normal' malfunctions....
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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson
He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson
jerm 0
Quote
A PC in tow isn't a total, it's a partial because you have material (in this case, the PC & bridle) out.
again, differing definitions... where i come from a total means nothing has come out of the main container.
Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time
jerm 0
QuoteI like knwowing that in the very rare chance that I have a reserve mal, I haven't allready lost my other option-attempting again the deploy my main.
that can go both ways, though.... old-timer i know had a pc in tow back in the arly 80s... went to silver, had a reserve total... about 800 ft the main finally popped out.... what if he'd cut away?
i don't have any more of the details like WHY the reserve total or if he was beating up his rig to finally dislodge the main, i should go ask...
Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time
jerm 0
Quote
It's not only poor equipment maintenance that can cause a pilot chute in tow. We had a jumper a few years ago who, because of a lazy throw, had the pilot chute dance around in the burble and eventually become strangled by the bridle itself. There was nothing wrong with the equipment in this case and this jumper most certainly had a pilot chute in tow.
I had the same thing happen at zhills a year and a half ago... got down and found the bridle half-hitched around the edge of the pilote chute.. lazy toss or just bad luck? who knows, but shit still happens even when you don't fuckup.
FWIW, i went right to silver.
Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time
mikkey 0
If you have a PC out - the risk of getting a dual deployment with entanglement by just going for silver (or the reserve pilot entangling in main PC) is far greater then having a reserve mal. If you have anything "out" - do a cut away first if you have time.
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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.
jerm 0
QuoteIf you have a PC out - the risk of getting a dual deployment with entanglement by just going for silver (or the reserve pilot entangling in main PC) is far greater then having a reserve mal.
I agree, but that was only one illustration of the problems that can arise, others have already been addressed here. main risers choking off reserve has happened to a lot more than just Mike Mcgowan, he's just someone that everyone knows and thus the only instance people ever hear about.
Tell me how many entanglements you've seen from 2-out... NOT from an already malfunctioning main but just pc in tow, or someone goes low & dumps their main too late for their AAD, etc... I've seen a lot of 2-out scenarios, never seen an entanglement. Not saying it doesn't happen or isn't possible, but i think 2-out it's a lot more routine than lots of newbies seem to think (yes, i'm counting you in there).
From what i've seen, read and taken from the advice of a bunch of people who have been around this sport a HELL of a lot longer than me, i choose to go to right to silver.
Quote
If you have anything "out" - do a cut away first if you have time.
ummm... NO!
Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time
QuoteI'm definitely of the belief that I'd rather have 2 canopies out than none. I'll dump my reserve on a pc-in-tow and then deal with 2 canopies if need be. When I'm plummeting towards the earth at 120 mph I don't want to waste time cutting away something which isn't even out.
I agree completely. PC in tow? I'm pulling silver. Those who know the story of Frank at SDC will know how cutting away almost killed him. When the reserve deployed it pushed the main risers free of the three ring. The snagged on the reserve deploying and nearly collapsed it. Well, actually, it inflated then deflated, then inflated, then deflated. Frank got lucky in that he hit during one of the better times in the canopy flight. He's walking again and jumping. But he had a hard long recovery. At least he, and Mike McGowan got the chance to recover.
If I already have one thing out above me that could interfere with reserve deployment why would I want to add two more things (main risers)?
I recognize I'm in the minority in the voting on this issue. But I believe I have solid information on which to base my opinion. PC in tow? I will be pulling the reserve handle without cutting away.
Chris Schindler
mikkey 0
Hmmm, all interesting points, but it goes very much against what I have been taught over many years. In regard to stats, maybe I am wrong, but isn't main/reserve entanglement (without cutaway first) one of the most common fatality reasons? I just do not know how many of these were PC in tow. Assume there is no data available? PC in tow is probably the worst situation I can imagine. Really a worry that people are so divided on the issue how to react. Maybe some of the "bodies" really should do more research on the issue?
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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.
wmw999 2,120
I had 3 PC in tow reserve rides due to some gear experimentation. In each case, I automatically pulled my reserve handle. One thing is that in those days, riser keepers were either non-existent, or just wimpy little pieces of velcro halfway up the riser.
But the real reason was that my (mostly unconscious) reasoning was "I'm going really fast, I don't really have anything out, and it's time to pull the reserve."
Then I quit experimenting with pilot chute designs.
Wendy W.
But the real reason was that my (mostly unconscious) reasoning was "I'm going really fast, I don't really have anything out, and it's time to pull the reserve."
Then I quit experimenting with pilot chute designs.
Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
jerm 0
None of the reported fatalities since 1990 (according to skydivingfatalities.com) were due to a pc in tow and then a main-reserve entanglement due to not cutting away. There are M/R rntanglements on there, but not from PC in tow. They ARE missing a couple of years in the early 90s, but have been pretty thorough since then AFAIK.
Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time
Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time
QuotePC in tow is probably the worst situation I can imagine.
IMO a Horse-Shoe is a the worst mal out there...there is often little you can do to reduce it once it's started, and your remaining options are less than appealing.
I'm not trying to undermine the severity of a pc in tow, but stats show that punching out your reserve past it is probably going to work. Since that too scares me, I jump a pull-out, which greatly reduces the odds of both of those malfunctions. just my 2 cents on it....
"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
mikkey 0
"IMO a Horse-Shoe is a the worst mal out there...there is often little you can do to reduce it once it's started, and your remaining options are less than appealing. "
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Yea, mental lapse here - was including horse shoe in my own mind, and it is a quite a different mal type. On the other hand, I could imagine that people who pull/deploy will not always know if the high speed mal they are experiencing is a "in tow" or a horse shoe.
Now - correct me if I am wrong - the consensus on horse shoe mals is that you should cut away first (?). And here is the dilemma, if you say, this mal I will cut-away, and this I won't - the risk is that in the stress situation of a high speed mal, you might do the wrong thing - even if you are an experienced jumper. I know of incidents where very experienced people died deploying reserves into malfunctioning mains above their heads and died.
I think it is an advantage to have only "one" emergency procedure that is stored in your muscle memory. If you do a lot of thinking/evaluating at high speed you might just run out of time. I think I stick with my procedure of if I deployed the PC - I'll go for both handles and cut first.
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Yea, mental lapse here - was including horse shoe in my own mind, and it is a quite a different mal type. On the other hand, I could imagine that people who pull/deploy will not always know if the high speed mal they are experiencing is a "in tow" or a horse shoe.
Now - correct me if I am wrong - the consensus on horse shoe mals is that you should cut away first (?). And here is the dilemma, if you say, this mal I will cut-away, and this I won't - the risk is that in the stress situation of a high speed mal, you might do the wrong thing - even if you are an experienced jumper. I know of incidents where very experienced people died deploying reserves into malfunctioning mains above their heads and died.
I think it is an advantage to have only "one" emergency procedure that is stored in your muscle memory. If you do a lot of thinking/evaluating at high speed you might just run out of time. I think I stick with my procedure of if I deployed the PC - I'll go for both handles and cut first.
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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.
Hooknswoop 19
QuoteNow - correct me if I am wrong - the consensus on horse shoe mals is that you should cut away first (?)
2 types of horse-shoe malfunctions.
1) PC still in BOC (or ROL
![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
), container open. 2) PC entangled with jumper, containr open.
Both are preventable.
Try to throw/clear the PC first. If unable, then no choice but to risk an entanglement and cutaway and fire the reserve into the mess.
For a PC in tow, I reach back and pull the pin. 24 in ZP PC w/ a 7 ft bridle has eliminated any hesitations for me.
Hook
sducoach 0
I've always been taught "If there is tension on the risers, cut it away. If not, go for the silver". Now how about this (another poll?) how about a horseshoe, what do you teach?
Blues,
J.E.
James 4:8
jerm 0
Quote
For a PC in tow, I reach back and pull the pin. 24 in ZP PC w/ a 7 ft bridle has eliminated any hesitations for me.
unfortunately with a bridle-wrapped PC that only guarantees the main container will be open... though the upside is that it's not enough drag to a)lift anything out of the container or b) inflate the main once you open and the bag falls out.
also unfortunately it's REALLY tough to know that at the time...
fortunately.... bridle knotting the PC isn't all that common, thank goodness
why am i talking?
Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time
sducoach 0
Bill, Have you ever seen a PC in the burgle with bridle stretch? Help me with this one. We teach "check" which should clear a PC in the burble. If I'm looking and it's sitting there with a stretched bridle I'm pretty sure it's "in tow".
Clear this up for me.
Blues,
J.E.
James 4:8
Quote"IMO a Horse-Shoe is a the worst mal out there...there is often little you can do to reduce it once it's started, and your remaining options are less than appealing. "
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Yea, mental lapse here - was including horse shoe in my own mind, and it is a quite a different mal type. On the other hand, I could imagine that people who pull/deploy will not always know if the high speed mal they are experiencing is a "in tow" or a horse shoe.
Now - correct me if I am wrong - the consensus on horse shoe mals is that you should cut away first (?). And here is the dilemma, if you say, this mal I will cut-away, and this I won't - the risk is that in the stress situation of a high speed mal, you might do the wrong thing - even if you are an experienced jumper. I know of incidents where very experienced people died deploying reserves into malfunctioning mains above their heads and died.
I think it is an advantage to have only "one" emergency procedure that is stored in your muscle memory. If you do a lot of thinking/evaluating at high speed you might just run out of time. I think I stick with my procedure of if I deployed the PC - I'll go for both handles and cut first.
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Depends on how the horse-shoe started. Of course you want to try and free the pc first (we teach two attempts), but then you've simply got to suck it up, cutaway and hope it just wasn't your day to go...
That's what I think is most scary about this mal...even if you follow the procedure, you're only hoping it's going to work. I also teach CReW camps, and this is the thing that scares most folks learning to do CReW. There are simply no "given" procedures for many CReW mals...you have to think each one out and make a decision based on the position(s) your in and what's above and below you. And even then, it may or may not work. Freefallers really like the idea that there is a given, set procedure for everything...what they don't all realize, is that sometimes the mal you're given doesn't have a cut and dry answer to it.
Again, I jump a pull-out because it helps reduce pc in tow and horse-shoe. I want the deck stacked as much in my favor as I can get it. End of story.
"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
jumpgod 0
has anyone ever cocked their pilot chute and double checked their equipment and still had a pilot chute in tow?
"i know nothing" but....
ever since i was a student, i was taught to cut-a-way and pull my reserve so that's what i would do. being a high speed and cooking through 1500' would speed up my actions appropriately.
blue ones!!!!
"i know nothing" but....
ever since i was a student, i was taught to cut-a-way and pull my reserve so that's what i would do. being a high speed and cooking through 1500' would speed up my actions appropriately.
blue ones!!!!
"dude, where's my main?"
Quotehas anyone ever cocked their pilot chute and double checked their equipment and still had a pilot chute in tow?
Sure, you can mis-route the bridle, hang it up on the corner of a stiffener, have the bridle half-hitch the envelope closed....
Quoteever since i was a student, i was taught to cut-a-way and pull my reserve so that's what i would do. being a high speed and cooking through 1500' would speed up my actions appropriately.
You hope it would speed up your actions. It may or may not, but the fact is, when you concentrate on something (like finding a handle that's hidden for some reason, or just really being intent on doing everything right) you may be less than "totally altitude aware". At 120 mph at 1500', that's not good.
And let's not forget that when you "speed up your actions" you don't always hold a nice body position...especially if you're using two hands to cutaway with. If you start tumbling as you cutaway, you may be deploying your reserve through your legs, or over your shoulder, or who knows where. More than one person has died as a result of deploying their reserve and tumbling into it (or the trailing pc behind you).
If you take the cutawy out of the process, you're more likely to get the reserve out while you're still relatively stable...thus increasing your odds of survival.
We're not talking about rocket-science here. If you train up to handle given situations, and train up well, you're going to perform well when the time comes to use it.
"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
tbrown 26
It's a tricky situation, no doubt. Best thing is probably to avoid the PC-in-tow completely through good equipment maintenance.
With spring and Safety Day coming, this is a good topic for a bumpy. Besides which, it finally happened to me, two weekends ago.
After tracking off from a 10 Way formation dive (Perris Rumble Rules Meet), I waved off and tossed just as my pull alarm was sounding at 3 grand. To my great disappointment and dismay, I found myself continuing to lie flat and stable. Looking around, I could see nothing. Reached back with my hand and could feel nothing, though I knew it had to be back there somewhere. The reaching around rolled me on my side, which might have cleared the p/c, but didn't. At that point, I decided I'd had enough and went straight to silver, getting a really quick, clean, and surprisingly soft opening from my PD193R (God bless PD !). I was opened on a level with the rest of my team and my hard deck alarm, which I set for 2 grand, never went off. My reserve was no sooner open than my main decided to come out and play. As it was behind the reserve, I checked my main & reserve risers quickly and decided I could safely cutaway the main, which I did before it was fully inflated. A friend on my team happened to catch my cutaway after opening on his GoPro.
Back on the ground, my rigger, who also happened to be our team's camera man, discovered a nasty black burn on my freebag, which actually cut right through the bag material. The reserve canopy was not damaged, but the freebag was junk. My main bridle had apparently snagged the freebag, causing a very intense friction burn. I'm just glad I never saw any of this as it was happening, while my reserve deployed in barely more than one second.
Addressing a number of issues; I have always maintained that the best way to deal with a p/c in tow is prevention. I still believe that, but inspite of everything I've done, it still happened.
My p/c is a factory spec Sunpath F-111 fabric p/c sized for a 190 ft canopy. It's much larger than most ZP p/c's, so large that people tell jokes about me doing CRW with it. I DEFINITELY cocked the kill line, I remember doing it (I do my own packing and routinely check the kill line at two different points in the process). The kill line was getting short enough that I'd scheduled it for replacement with my rigger, but it was not short enough for immediate concern - I could still see slack in the kill line next to the p/c centerlines, which were taut. I had also just replaced my main closing loop. This was only the second jump with the new loop, but it was no tighter than usual and my previous opening had been same as always.
I think the likeliest candidate for what went wrong, was a "lazy throw", in quotes because I'm not lazy about that either, but somehow I think the p/c managed to flip over my back and collapse in my burble. That could explain a dancing bridle trying to snag my freebag as well.
I have come in for some criticism about going straight to my reserve without a cutaway. I am one of a minority who have believed in pulling the reserve without a cutaway for a PCIT. As yet, USPA doesn't endorse one method or the other, only that you make your plan and stick with it, which is what I did. However two skydivers who I deeply respect, Jim Wallace and Dan BC, were both of the opinion that I should have cutaway first. Because I respect them as much as I do, I am seriously reconsidering my EP procedure should this ever happen again.
But honestly, I don't think a cutaway would have changed anything that happened. My risers would have stayed contained under their covers either way, and the main bridle would have grabbed at the freebag either way. The only difference I can see is that the main would have departed on its own as it belatedly tried to open. The truth is, people with PCIT mals have lived - and died - with or without a cutaway. But again, I am reconsidering my response in the future.
I am very leery of "tossing" a p/c. No matter how hard you toss, the upward blast of the air around you is going to take your p/c UP a lot quicker than any distance you think you can toss it. In the old days when hand deploy was new, we would pull it out to arm's length and let it go. I'm not talking about leaving it hanging out there either, but a smooth pull, full arm extension and release. I do know another jumper or two who now do that after having had their own PCIT malfunctions (and one is a rated AFF Instructor with over 9000 jumps).
Bottom line is, you can do your best to prevent a PCIT, but they can still happen to anyone, so BE PREPARED - make your plan and stick with it ! I hope this lengthy discourse will stimulate some discussions on Safety Day. Blue skies to all and let's be safe up there !
Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !
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