PC in tow, cutaway or no cutaway?

[DocPop 1]

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Muscle memory is all well and good but you need to be able to override it with your brain memory.

That's great in theory, but until I am in a situation when this decision needs to be made, I cannot be sure how I will react. I most probably will be fine - I am not a stranger to high-stress environments - but I have not had to handle this one yet.

I have not been convinced that sticking with "pulling the handles in order" is a bad idea. I fully understand that there are situations when it could turn out to be bad, but those situations are only identifiable with hindsight.

BTW - the jumper in your example above would probably have been fine if he had pulled his handles in order. Chances are he would not have got to handle #2.

Please note that I am not advocating that anyone else adopt my way of thinking - just throwing it out there.

Remember: Always cock you pilot chute; but don't shoot your pilot's cock.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[JackC1 0]

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BTW - the jumper in your example above would probably have been fine if he had pulled his handles in order. Chances are he would not have got to handle #2.

The guy definitely fucked up. The point being, he didn't think it through, he just identified an emergency and executed his muscle memory trained emergency procedures, nearly executing himself in the process.

I tend to put more stock in thinking fast and doing right, than robotically pulling handles in a certain order.

But if all you are ever going to do in any emergency is chop and then pull silver, why not simplify the whole job and have an SOS system?

[phoenixlpr 0]

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But if all you are ever going to do in any emergency is chop and then pull silver, why not simplify the whole job and have an SOS system?

There are cases when you don't pull the silver.

[popsjumper 2]

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I tend to put more stock in thinking fast and doing right, than robotically pulling handles in a certain order

I tend to put my stock in training.

That adrenaline rush is going to affect your thinking speed and you may find that your altitude burned off faster than your thinking speed realized.

Doesn't matter what your problem is....train yourself on the ground how to handle it.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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.... but until I am in a situation when this decision needs to be made, I cannot be sure how I will react.

This is understandable but very, very worrisome.
It tells me that you have not drilled yourself well enough to know what you will do.

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I most probably will be fine

Most probably? Hmmmmm......not good.
You can change those odds into more favorable ones with training coupled with mental and physical drills.


- I am not a stranger to high-stress environments - but I have not had to handle this one yet.

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I have not been convinced that sticking with "pulling the handles in order" is a bad idea.

Nobody has said its a bad idea. Proponents have provided various reasonings for both options.

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I fully understand that there are situations when it could turn out to be bad, but those situations are only identifiable with hindsight.

Nope....foresight is the key.
But I do understand what you are saying, though...if it turns out bad, the arm-chair quarterbacks will be questioning the choice made.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Ron 7]

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I tend to put more stock in thinking fast and doing right, than robotically pulling handles in a certain order.

That is ideal, yet years of incident reports have shown that when all hell breaks lose, a good number of otherwise smart people do not think.

Due to this, I train myself to act a certain way given certain situations. The trick is to think BEFORE you need to act, when you are clam and rational, and then drill those solutions till they are robotic.

Of course... thats just my opinion and your mileage may vary.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[DSE 3]

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I tend to put more stock in thinking fast and doing right, than robotically pulling handles in a certain order

I tend to put my stock in training.

That adrenaline rush is going to affect your thinking speed and you may find that your altitude burned off faster than your thinking speed realized.

Doesn't matter what your problem is....train yourself on the ground how to handle it.

This is the ENTIRE point of training. Muscle memory and unconscious competence make for a solid response in an emergency. Otherwise, why bother?

[JackC1 0]

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This is the ENTIRE point of training. Muscle memory and unconscious competence make for a solid response in an emergency. Otherwise, why bother?

That's fine so long as your muscle memory doesn't turn into unconscious incompetence.

Take a canopy wrap for example. Is it better to blindly start pulling handles the second you find yourself with a face full of nylon; or is it better to take a split second to think how high you are, and maybe communicate with the other guy before deciding the best course of action? At 7000 ft, you've probably got time to organise yourself and do the right thing; at 200 ft, a no-brain muscle memory chop may well kill you both.

All I'm saying is don't blindly trust muscle memory to solve all your problems, at least remain open to the idea that occasionally it might be a good idea to run the plan past your brain memory first.

[DSE 3]

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This is the ENTIRE point of training. Muscle memory and unconscious competence make for a solid response in an emergency. Otherwise, why bother?

That's fine so long as your muscle memory doesn't turn into unconscious incompetence.

Take a canopy wrap for example. Is it better to blindly start pulling handles the second you find yourself with a face full of nylon; or is it better to take a split second to think how high you are, and maybe communicate with the other guy before deciding the best course of action? At 7000 ft, you've probably got time to organise yourself and do the right thing; at 200 ft, a no-brain muscle memory chop may well kill you both.

All I'm saying is don't blindly trust muscle memory to solve all your problems, at least remain open to the idea that occasionally it might be a good idea to run the plan past your brain memory first.

Hopefully your traing for CRW included a discussion and contrived scenarios. Mental prep and cognitive awareness are a significant aspect of muscle memory, no?

[wmw999 2,123]

Most automatic reactions have to be tempered with thought, because sometimes a given situation just isn't what you imagined could happen.

What if that faceful of canopy isn't because of planned CRW, but instead because someone above you cut away and happened to open facing you? That's low on the likely tree, but still possible.

To me, the reason to drill and think about things is because drill and thought already conducted take less time than something you have to figure out. So even if you're faced with a situation you didn't imagine, if you have a bunch of well-understood and well-used tools to deal with it, your chances go up.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[JackC1 0]

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Mental prep and cognitive awareness are a significant aspect of muscle memory, no?

Not the way I see it no. Muscle memory is there so that when your brain tells you it's time to pull, your muscle memory knows where to find the hackey, to pull it out and then let go of it without conciously having to fumble for the handle, remember how it works and then not to shove it down your jumpsuit like you did when you jumped rip cord kit. Immediately prior to, and post all muscle memory events, your brain has to be engaged (and preferably during as well).

If you go to perform your emergency drills and you chop but your harness moves and you grab your main lift web instead of your reserve handle and you blindly rely on muscle memory (as per my definition), it won't do you any good. You need to override that fundamental muscle memory urge to pull harder with a bit of brain power in order to realise you've not got hold of the handle. People have gone in like this precisely because they forgot to think.

I worry that the dz.com mantra of "muscle memory, muscle memory, muscle memory" can be mistaken for advice that you don't need to think because your muscles will remember what to do. That's fine so long as everything works the way your muscles remember. As soon as something deviates from that memory, you're in deep shit unless your brain can come to the rescue. So don't turn off the brain.

[popsjumper 2]

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...That's fine so long as your muscle memory doesn't turn into unconscious incompetence.

Take a canopy wrap for example. Is it better to blindly start pulling handles the second you find yourself with a face full of nylon; or is it better to take a split second to think how high you are, and maybe communicate with the other guy before deciding the best course of action?

Depends, Jack.
Were you trained to blindly start pulling handles?
I don't think so.
Were you trained to check alti and evaluate, communicate then respond?
Yes...that's what you drill.
Are you calling that "muscle memory"?

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At 7000 ft, you've probably got time to organise yourself and do the right thing; at 200 ft, a no-brain muscle memory chop may well kill you both.

Again...nobody, that I know of anyway, was trained to for no-brain muscle memory responses. There is always an evaluation step in there that makes use of the brain...there are no blind "muscle memory" responses to any problem.
If one does what you describe, they are not following their training....simple as that.

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it might be a good idea to run the plan past your brain memory first.

It appears that you are saying that people are trained to ignore the evaluation part of a problem. Not so.
IMO, the simple muscle memory comes into play after the evaluation....for example:
Evaluation: "Here's what I got"
Muscle memory: "Now here's what I do" (without having to think about all the minute detail of every movement or action.)

Please, let's not confuse the young jumpers who may be reading this thread.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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Not the way I see it no. Muscle memory is there so that when your brain tells you it's time to pull, your muscle memory knows where to find the hackey, to pull it out and then let go of it without conciously having to fumble for the handle, remember how it works and then not to shove it down your jumpsuit like you did when you jumped rip cord kit. Immediately prior to, and post all muscle memory events, your brain has to be engaged (and preferably during as well).

OK...now that I read this part, I agree

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If you go to perform your emergency drills and you chop but your harness moves and you grab your main lift web instead of your reserve handle and you blindly rely on muscle memory (as per my definition), it won't do you any good. You need to override that fundamental muscle memory urge to pull harder with a bit of brain power in order to realise you've not got hold of the handle.

But now you're back to missing that evaluation part.

Don't you train your students to look for those handles before that start grabbing all kinds of stuff?

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People have gone in like this precisely because they forgot to think

I would argue that...
-they didn't follow their training, or
-that they were not trained properly, or
-that they did not drill themselves on what methods they were trained.
-that they, as you point out, let the brain lock up on themselves

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I worry that the dz.com mantra of "muscle memory, muscle memory, muscle memory" can be mistaken for advice that you don't need to think because your muscles will remember what to do.

I think you're off track on most of this. "Muscle memory" is not a DZ.com mantra.

I think you're off-track because nobody is trained that they don't have to think.

Your point of not turning off the brain is central to successful EPs. It is unfortunately somewhat buried in your comments. It could have been made without the diatribe against muscle memory.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[JackC1 0]

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Please, let's not confuse the young jumpers who may be reading this thread.

That is exactly my point. I'm not redefining the term "muscle memory", my concern is that other people here are.

Muscle memory, also known as motor learning, is a form of procedural memory that involves consolidating a specific motor task into memory through repetition. When a movement is repeated over time, a long-term muscle memory is created for that task, eventually allowing it to be performed without conscious effort.

Note the phrases "consolidating a specific motor task" and "without concious effort".

Muscle memory is that which allows you to reach for your hackey and find it without thinking. Muscle memory does not extend to the concious act of deciding it's pull time so I need to reach for my hackey.

With reserve drills, muscle memory is that which allows you to peel then punch without thinking. It does not extend to the act of deciding I need to cut away.

Around here, the term muscle memory seems to imply everything from pulling handles all the way through to perceiving a problem, analysing what it is, deciding on the best course of action and then pulling handles.

Anyone coming here thinking they know what muscle memory means will be confused by your definition. I'm just trying to point that out.

[wmw999 2,123]

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Muscle memory is that which allows you to reach for your hackey and find it without thinking...
With reserve drills, muscle memory is that which allows you to peel then punch without thinking

I would agree.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Andy9o8 0]

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Muscle memory is that which allows you to reach for your hackey and find it without thinking...
With reserve drills, muscle memory is that which allows you to peel then punch without thinking

I would agree. Wendy P.

Sure, but you and I know that doesn't necessarily mean that muscle memory equals ONLY cutting-away in an emergency situation. When I trained in the 70s on mil-surp gear with chest-mounted reserves, I was trained to have 2 muscle memories in case of a malfunction: cut-away with shot-and-a-halfs on a partial mal, and go straight to reserve on a total. I wasn't confused. As luck would have it, my first mal on that gear was a total. I didn't hesitate by feinting toward my Capewells; I went straight to reserve.

When I got recurrent on modern gear, I kept the "go straight to reserve" for totals, hard pulls and PCITs. I reinforce that training regularly. If I have a hard pull or PCIT on modern gear, I don't think I'll hesitate toward my cutaway handle, I'll just go straight for silver.

[wmw999 2,123]

The other parts in that post that I agreed with were that the judgment of which pieces of muscle memory should be drilled, but they're not muscle memory.

Because I'm in complete agreement with you. Except that I didn't have a total for my first mal, it was a partial. I cut away (R2's), but went straight into the prescribed fetal position for my reserve pull. Except, of course, that I"d gotten a piggyback not to long before -- muscle memory was NOT my friend
Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 2,400]

>Muscle memory is that which allows you to reach for your hackey and find
>it without thinking. Muscle memory does not extend to the concious act of
>deciding it's pull time so I need to reach for my hackey.

In some cases it does. Even experienced jumpers will automatically open their mains when they find themselves low, even if they are very close to AAD activation altitude. They don't think, they just act.

[pchapman 261]

+1 for JackC1, for the idea that "muscle memory" is sometimes used for too broad a range of things, including the decision making process. The term gets used a lot, with skydivers not being clear what is meant by it.

[JackC1 0]

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>Muscle memory is that which allows you to reach for your hackey and find
>it without thinking. Muscle memory does not extend to the concious act of
>deciding it's pull time so I need to reach for my hackey.

In some cases it does. Even experienced jumpers will automatically open their mains when they find themselves low, even if they are very close to AAD activation altitude. They don't think, they just act.

True. In this case, it might be better to go for your reserve but at least they registered that they need something out asap and got on with it.

But here's another example where muscle memory might not be the best thing. Suppose you dump at a reasonable altitude and get a spinning malfunction with line twists. You decide to chop and go for your cut away handle. Due to the line twists, it's a hard pull and your hand slips off the cutaway pad without completing the pull. Your right hand thinks it's job is done as it's shot out to full extension so the left hand starts to go through with it's part of the process. If muscle memory is left to it's own devices you could well end up with two out. But if the brain can recognise an incomplete chop and override the muscle memory, you might be able to rewind and try again, averting a more serious problem.

I still think the most important muscle to get drilled is the grey mushy one between your ears.

[DSE 3]

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The other parts in that post that I agreed with were that the judgment of which pieces of muscle memory should be drilled, but they're not muscle memory.

Because I'm in complete agreement with you. Except that I didn't have a total for my first mal, it was a partial. I cut away (R2's), but went straight into the prescribed fetal position for my reserve pull. Except, of course, that I"d gotten a piggyback not to long before -- muscle memory was NOT my friend
Wendy P.

I guess my school of thought says that muscle memory teaches to enact a certain set of behaviors once a decision has been made. You still have to make decisions.
If (to you) "muscle memory" is defined by action without prior thought and a decision process, then you're right and I'm entirely wrong. In my view, muscle memories are tools we choose to use after evaluating a scenario and making a decision as to which set of previously-trained actions are the best for a given scenario.

[popsjumper 2]

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In some cases it does. Even experienced jumpers will automatically open their mains when they find themselves low, even if they are very close to AAD activation altitude. They don't think, they just act.

WoooHooo! An excellent example!
They forgot their training....which yes, includes thinking.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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Anyone coming here thinking they know what muscle memory means will be confused by your definition. I'm just trying to point that out.

Besides the fact that I have yet to define "muscle memory" (you did a good job of it), I took your comment to heart and asked 4 young jumpers to read our posts to see if they understood what was being said.
None had any problem understanding either of us.

I retract my comment along those lines to you about that.

Funnily enough, one commented, "What are you guys arguing about? You're saying the same thing!"

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Ron 7]

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WoooHooo! An excellent example!
They forgot their training....which yes, includes thinking.

Still, it is better to toss out a main when low than take the time to think about what to do and then reach for a handle that you have not pulled several times.

I was on my back filming a guy once.... When he pulled I saw the horizon pass my feet. I rolled over to my left and thought "RESERVE!!!!" by the time I got to the middle of that thought, my main was opening. I had instinctively rolled pilot chute side up and tossed while on my side.

I had 300ish jumps at the time.... 300 main pulls and no real life reserve pulls.

I was open around 300-400 feet. If I had not tossed my main... I am almost 100% sure I would be dead.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Divalent 89]

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In some cases it does. Even experienced jumpers will automatically open their mains when they find themselves low, even if they are very close to AAD activation altitude. They don't think, they just act.

WoooHooo! An excellent example!
They forgot their training....which yes, includes thinking.

And here's an actual example deploying a main very low when faced with no time to think:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiGdqPfztsc.

If he was falling 100 ft to the north, I suspect he would have hit that ridge, and way too fast. A reserve pull instead at the same instant might have been better, but I do wonder if he could have done it: some time would have been consumed deciding, and I bet his muscle memory deploying his main was faster than going for his less familiar reserve.