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Showing results for 'SABRE2 VS CROSSFIRE2'.
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it's not really the best choice if you want to go down the swooping path... short recovery arc and all... probably better off trying a Crossfire2 or Nitron if you're looking for a performance increase from a Sabre2 without going completely bonkers NSCR-2376, SCR-15080
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Sweetspot for a sbre2 is around 1.5 I think. 1.9 seems a little high and I would rather choose a crossfire2 or katana at that wingload. If you already jump a crossfire2...why go back to a sabre2? _______________________________________
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Non x-braced elliptical canopies
DocPop replied to danielcroft's topic in Swooping and Canopy Control
I went from a Sabre2 150 to a Katana 135 and really liked the change. I felt like I wanted more performance than the Sabre2 could give me, but I have PLENTY to learn on the Katana. It seemed like quite a big jump in performance. I went back to basics and did a lot of high pulls and canopy drills up high when I first got it. The only other experience I could add is that I jumped a Crossfire2 139 and to me it didn't seem as aggressive as the Katana. It seemed slower and less willing to dive. Hope there is something in there that helps. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA -
This I think will surprise some, piss some off, and make others wonder if it’s true. So let me start with yes it’s true or at least my perception of the truth. I think there is a bias; that bias is that a crossbraced canopy should only be jumped by swoop gods and the rest of the common folk should just disregard the facts. So here are a few facts (perceptions) as I see them. I jump a Space 130 loaded at about a 1.5, I have a lot of jumps on this canopy (at lest to me) over 500 and really like it. I need to replace it so I was looking for a Cobalt 135 basically the same canopy. The Space/Cobalt opens great, fly’s great, feels very solid and has a tremendous amount of flare on bottom end. So what else have I jumped? Ok a Cobalt, Stiletto, Sabre2, Crossfire and Crossfire2, Nitro, Jonathon, Jedi, Hornet, and Heatwave, to name a few. I think the Space up to this point was the best canopy I’ve jumped. I am by no means a professional canopy pilot, nor even a great canopy flyer. I just enjoy my weekend jumps and have fun doing them. I do not swoop nor do I intend to swoop, I do sometimes fly a carving 90 degree turn but most often just fly straight in. So I saw an ad for a Xaos-21 135 and figured everything I heard about this canopy was good, especially the openings. The canopy was reasonable so I thought what the heck let’s give it a try. The results are as follows. Space 130 loaded at about 1.5 Vs. Xaos-21 135 loaded at about the same. First the Space turns faster and dives harder in a hard toggle turn. The Xaos turns a little slower and doesn’t dive as hard initially, The Space will recover and even flare some on its own, the Chaos doesn’t seem to want to do that, it stays in a steep decent not really a dive but a negative recovery. Bottom end on both canopies is great, but the Xaos has the Space and every other canopy I’ve jumped beat all to hell. I think this is the biggest difference between a crossbraced canopy and a typical 9 cell. Both seem to fly at about the same speed. On flare the distortion of the Xaos is much less than the Space so it stands to reason that there would be a more powerful flare. It also stands to reason that you could load the canopy a lot higher. The openings on both canopies are great, but I must confess the Xaos opens great better than I thought it would. I was surprised at how nice the openings were. So the Xoas all in all proved to be the better canopy for me, openings were great, flare was awesome, the rest was very similar to a Space/Cobalt. I will finish with this the Xaos vs. Space was very close, I felt like the Space at this wing loading felt a little more aggressive the the Xaos. I feel certain that at higher wing loadings that would change but at a 1.5 the Space seemed more responsive. This Xaos has been flown at a 1.4 wing loading a 1.5 wing loading and a 1.6 wing loading. I don’t know about before I got it. With all of that said I don’t see any reason why someone flying an elliptical canopy at these wing loading should fear flying a Xaos-21 I think for the most part they would be surprised that It doesn’t seem as aggressive as many canopies. The Stiletto turns much faster in my opinion. The cons of going to a crossbraced over a 9 cell elliptical? Well the crossbraced canopy packs bigger, it also cost more new, you will probably have to change the lines a little more frequent and you will have to put up with all the naysayers telling you, you shouldn’t be on the canopy. Is it ok to fly a Xaos at a 1.4 or 1.5 wing loading? Well according to Precision Aerodynamics it is, I don’t have a problem taking their word for it. Can they be landed straight in with out a speed increasing turn? Most definitely without any problem at all, in fact they still have more flare then any traditional 9 cell I’ve jumped. The pros of going to a crossbraced canopy, you may find one like I did cheaper than a non-crossbraced of similar performance. You will get more flare power out of the same size canopy, and it will start the flare much quicker with a small toggle bump. So all in all no reason not to go with a Xaos in lieu of a 9 cell elliptical canopy at a moderate wing loading. If you can find one rasonable and don’t mind the larger pack volume. So I know we will hear from some nay sayers however I think if you call Precision Aerodynamics you’ll hear the same thing I’m saying. Ok so in closing I’m not telling anyone to go buy and load up a crossbraced canopy. I’m also not talking about any crossbraced other than the Xaos-21. I/m also talking about if you jump an elliptical at a 1.5 wing loading you won’t find a lot of difference between the two. A 120 sq. ft. canopy fly’s about the same speed at the same wing loading, not matter if it’s a 7 cell, 9 cell or crossbraced. Honestly I wonder why a lot more people don’t fly them; they have more flare and bottom end then most canopies and are not any more aggressive than most ellipticals in normal flight. So let’s have some discussion on this subject, I’m very curious what others think. Oh for the profile lookers, mine hasn’t been updated since 2006 you can check with the mods on that if you are so compelled.
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The only sensible response to this type of question is go an d fly them. Nobody can tell you what you will prefer. If you're ready for a 150, then fly a bunch of them - Safire2, Sabre2, Pilot, Storm, Spectre etc, etc and see what you want. If you know the flight characteristics you want then narrow the list down a bit. These "which is a better canopy" threads are essentially pointless. I really didn't like the Crossfire2, but loved the Katana - but many people would disagree with me. Each to their own. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA
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I'm a pretty big guy too weighing 255 lbs. with my gear. Never had any problems with my gear. I jumped a electra 190 (WL at 1.3) for 350 jumps and never had any problems while the label said max 200 lbs.. I've also jumped a Sabre2 -190 (WL at nearly 1.5), a Safire2 - 139 (WL nearly 1.8) and a Crossfire2 - 139. Never had any problems while I did have a couple of really hard openings on my Sabre2 after Freefly-jumps and when jumping in shorts and a t-shirt. Having more weight can be a good thing because you're more connected to the canopy. You're flying the canopy and not the other way around (Ever seen the little girls land on high wind days day loaded at 0.6-0.8, that isn't fun). The only problem with the extra weight are the first few jumps where you don't know when to flare but once you get through this, in my opinion, having some more weight is positive. I'm not saying that you should hang 350-400 lbs on a student canopy but with you're weight you shouldn't have a problem. Just take a canopy that opens soft and you'll be allright. Blue skies!
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While I agree in your comment about the Crossfire2, I disagree in your assertion that the Safire2 is "better for swoops" than the Sabre2. In my experience, both were decent but the Sabre2 out performed the Safire2 when pushed hard. --"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."
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I found that the sabre2 had a longer recovery arc than the stilletto as well although not quite as lifty I did 200 jumps on a sabre2 170 learning to swoop after I broke myself learnign badly on a pilot 150 then did about 50 more on the 150 sabre 2 and then went to a crossfire 2 129 AFTER Demoing a 149 Crossfire 2 for a weekend or two. jumping the 149 first helped me a lot. people yelled at me for jumping the 129 at first... johnny 1488 said "dont kill yourself" a lot Sonic from the ranch pro shop was flat out pissed at me and was very short with me for quite some time. What they didnt see since I was jumping at sussex at the time was that I had a mentor ( I learned that I needed a second set of eyes) and was getting video debriefs every day. In addition to that I went to florida and did the first of two canopy courses in 4 months... Sonic later sold me a 119 Crossfire2 when originally he hadc refused to sell me a Crossfire2 149. And that is how I survived aggressive downsizing that made people angry...(after I broke my leg the first time doing it wrong) It can be done but I would reccomend the following 1. Mentor 2. Advanced Canopy Courses (I took Brians and man has it saved my life a lot) 3. Remain teachable if someone walks up to me and says something I will still listen they might be trying to save your life with knowledge that they learned doing the same thing. Believe me they aint doing this for thier health. 4. Do some high pulls if you can, I have about 75 or so with my friend Matt it teaches you about the ranges of your canopy so much... 5. Practise up high as much as you can to find the altitudes 6. Learn what density altitude does to canopies :-P 7. Be safe and stay alive Cheers Dave http://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. -
Pilot 140 to Crossfire 139 or 129?
Joellercoaster replied to sebinoslo's topic in Safety and Training
I would do the same - just get a slightly smaller Pilot. I've gotten a bit heavier lately and am now loading my Pilot at about 1.8; it's gotten a little bit fussy landing straight-in though it's still good with front riser approaches But, below 1.7, smaller Pilots were great fun each time. I've had my current one for about 400 jumps. I'm experimenting with a borrowed Sabre2 and a Crossfire2, both the same size(ish) as my Pilot, and will see how that goes. I suspect the Crossfire will win out on fun factor though -- "I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan "You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at? -
Yes, I'm not looking for advice on just getting any one particular canopy. I am looking for advice on which several different canopies may be suitable. At this point I've gotten what I came for, through a combination of helpful responses and helpful PMs. I have a line on a Stiletto 135 that I will be flying in a couple of weeks. If all checks out then I will make an offer on the rig. Stiletto/Viper ellipticals are what most of my jumps were on, and the 135 is two sizes larger than what I used to jump. I will also fly it fairly conservatively. Once I get more recurrent I will explore other options - Sabre2, Crossfire2, Katana, maybe Velo. I'll ease myself into it. NOW, the rig I will be flying in a couple of weeks doesn't have an AAD. So clearly someone needs to come along and tell me that I'm waaaaayyy too uncurrent to be jumping without an AAD. Lol. Flame on. Marc A ship in the harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for.
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Marc I really think anyone telling you to "get canopy x" is doing you a disservice. You know that you're going to have to ease back into the smaller sizes, and that's what you are doing. Once you are back at the 135/120 point I suggest that you demo a bunch of different canopies to decide what YOU like. It seems to me that one of the keys to your point is an interest in knowing what the newer canopy designs are like and therefore you should have a list to try not a single model recommended to you. Here's a start on the list: Pilot Safire2 Sabre2 Stiletto Crossfire2 Katana I take Fast's point about your potential currency being a little low for the last two, but I don't think they necessarily have to be a problem. Canopies don't kill people, pilots do. The statistics prove that. There are certainly more models out there that you could try but the above list is a good starting point depending on what you want. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA
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You may consider this semantics, too, but I don't necessarily think you should view the Stiletto as old technology, but rather as a canopy designed and built for the flying style of the time. Swooping techniques have moved on a lot and the most recent swooping canopies (Comp Velo, Katana, Peregrine, for example) reflect the change in what modern Canopy Pilots want (mainly a steep trimmed, diving canopy which has plenty of range on the rears). That said, if you're not going to fly that way then maybe you will prefer to stick with the Stiletto - plenty of people do still fly and love them. If you want to try to get into the more modern way of flying a canopy for HP landings, may I suggest that you start off with a Sabre2 and build currency loading it up to say 1.5 then go to a Katana or Crossfire2 if you want something that is the next step up the performance ladder. Be aware that these canopies will dive much more than your Stilettos and initiation altitudes will need to go up quite a bit. Finally, some coaching on new techniques would be valuable. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA
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my opinion is this... Crossfire 2 is a great canopy especially transitioning from a sabre 2. I will follow that up by saying that you should learn that Sabre2 170 wring the shit out of it... of course none of us can see you fly canopies on the internet, but I will say that you should probably spend a shitload more time on the sabre2 170, I was a fast learner and I still waited until I had 500 jumps to move to the crossfire2. And finally I learned almost everything I know about swooping on a sabre2 170... Cheers Dave http://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.
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What's he been teaching you? How have you been flying your canopy? Are you inducing speed low to the ground? If yes, how much did you practice up high before you brought it low to the ground? What did you practice up high? How current are you? How current do you plan on being? Why do you want to downsize after only 16 jumps on your current canopy? How reputable is this coach you speak of? Why are you willing to trust your life with his word that you'll be okay? After all you've told us that he's the one making the calls for your life. Having a DZ reject you and your canopy should be the least of your worries right now. Dude I'm no canopy nazi. Like some other people, I progressed faster than recommended. But I put hundreds and hundreds of jumps on virtually each canopy that I jumped and I was always pretty darn current. Plus I sought professional coaching from one of the world's best canopy pilots when I really wanted to take that next step (I sought coaching more than once as well). If someone wants to talk to me about swooping, then I'm game, let's talk. But know this ... There are no short cuts to swooping. It seems that this is something you're not aware of and you're going to find out what this means sooner or later if you put your blind trust in others instead of doing it the right way. Any one of us is capable of fucking up and permanently messing ourselves up. But there is a right way and a wrong way to go about becoming a good canopy pilot. So what's the right way? 1) Be patient, becoming a good canopy pilot doesn't happen over night. 2) Seek professional coaching from reputable coaches. 3) Dedicate jumps towards canopy control. 4) Put hundreds and hundreds of jumps on each canopy (stay current too). 5) Never skip a step in the downsizing/canopy type progression. 6) Know your limits and stay within them. 7) Know that there is always someone else better than you. 8) Know that there are no short cuts to swooping. Oh and just so that you know my progression so that you see that it's somewhat aggressive, but not nearly as aggressive as the path you're on. Here it is ... Jumps 1 ... 40 (various student/rental canopies from 290s down to 230s). Triathlon 220 ... 50 jumps Sabre2 190 ... 85 jumps Sabre2 170 ... 225 jumps (the canopy I really learned to swoop on) Crossfire2 139 ... 225 jumps Crossfire2 119 ... 150 jumps Velocity 111 ... 200 jumps Velocity 103 ... 350+ jumps (current canopy) and in many people's eyes I was aggressive with this progression. But at your pace you'll be on a cross-braced canopy at 200 jumps? I sure hope not. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over
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> I've been jumping a Sabre2 210 for well over 400 jumps . . . >After putting a handful of jumps on the Crossfire 2 129 that is what >I will be buying. Eeeeeeexcellent. Some suggestions for your new hot rod: 1) When swooping the pond and picking up a drink next to it, start off with water, so as not to waste beer. 2) Remember that speed is your friend! Hop on those front risers at the first sign of trouble. 3) At most DZ's, the smaller canopy you have, the cooler you are - and cool guy has right of way. That will help clear the area you're landing in, in case the canopy seems to not go in the direction you want. Often these newfangled smaller canopies seem to have a mind of their own. It's no fault of the pilot; it's just the wing getting used to its new master. 4) If you have trouble landing the Crossfire2 129, keep in mind that the Crossfire2 109 has more flare. A Xaos-27 99 is another good option, and flies "big" so you will be fine. 5) When first landing your new main, ensure that you do it as close to the fence as possible. No sense in buying a tiny main if no one sees your skillz. All in all, though, going down 40% in canopy size is no big deal, so ignore all those naysayers who don't have your skillz. Seek out the person who supports you at your DZ and listen only to him; he is a better source of advice than all those lower-skilled JM's, S+TA's and canopy pilots. Go big early; that maximizes the learning curve. Jump on windier days; your new canopy has mad penetration ability. And of course be safe! (Note for all other readers - as you may have surmised, the above post is as tongue-in-cheek as the original post.)
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I have a big question always in my mind: which canopy to choose..... I have 100 jumps did in the last 2 years and most of them (70) with a Spectre 190 ... but now I am in the process to buy my first equipment... what I don't know is which canopy. I am quite convinced the 190 is the correct size for me (my weight is 83 kg), after the AFF I did test some 240, 220 and 200 ... to come up with a 190 and I would say I am pretty comfortable with that size ... I don't want to have a higher WL as 100 jumps are, in my opinion, not enough to use an aggressive WL, am I wrong? 190 is the correct size? Saying I will use a 190 which canopy would you suggest? there are a lot of different manufacturer with a lot of different canopy, each of them with different characteristics, but with my limited experience I don't know which one I should get .... Sabre2 ? Spectre? Safire2? Crossfire2? Same problem for the reserve canopy ... size? type? .... The harness, mirage? vector? spirit vario? spirit? You would say, why not buying a used gear? why not, but not so easy to find something that fit to me (83kg-183lb and 193cm-6ft 4in tall) .... Basically I am lost ....
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I didn't put the wing loading on my last post for a couple of reasons. First off, all you need to do is look at my profile and you'll see that I'm currently loading my Crossfire2 at about 1.5:1 which falls within Icarus's recommended wing loading for this canopy (but is still under loaded compared to what many people think is the optimal wing loading for the Crossfire2). It is tempting to get to that optimal wing loading, but I must also remind myself that I have NOT mastered this current canopy (I have stood up all but two of what 210 or so landings on this canopy, but I think about my two crashes more than I think about all those successful stand ups). Secondly, I didn't post wing loadings because I have lost about 10-15 pounds since last summer and my wing loading on my Crossfire2 isn't all that much higher than the wing loading on the Sabre2 170. Plus how my wing reacts will be different than how someone else's with the same wing loading will react because I jump in a high density altitude region of the world (my home DZ is 5000 feet MSL and on a hot summer day, then density altitude could be approaching 9k-10k MSL). Try not to worry about the things you have no control over
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Triathlon 220 Sabre2 190 Sabre2 170 Crossfire2 139 Crossfire2 119 Velocity 111 Velocity 103 plus ... Spectre 150 (for wingsuit jumps) Samurai 136 (for Ground Launching) FLiK 293 (BASE) Rock Dragon 303 (BASE) Try not to worry about the things you have no control over
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Canopy Choice/Swooping Advice for low weight jumper
AggieDave replied to wonderwoman07's topic in Swooping and Canopy Control
That's your opinion and only your opinion. The better advice would be to say "go demo a Safire2 and a Pilot as well, you might find that you prefer one of those over the Sabre2." See, personally I strongly disagree with your opinion. I've jumped Pilots, Safire2s and Sabre2 as well as Crossfire2s and Katanas. In the first class the Sabre2 out performs in area that it seems the original poster is looking. The Crossfire2 is a great canopy, I owned one and competed on it for 2 seasons. However, after jumping the same sized KA I was blown away and I strongly believe that the KA is a better wing. I'm in no way sponsered by anyone except ME and my wallet. --"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." -
Bringing back a dead thread because it's the exact same question I want to ask. How do "equivalently sized" crossfire2's compare to sabre2's for pack volume? I don't need some number in cubic inches, what I'm ideally looking for is a general agreement from people who have packed both into the same container and say "the [whatever] packs [a little, some, a lot] [smaller,larger] than the [other one]" can anyone hook me up with said knowledge? If it really matters, I'm interested in a crossfire2-169 compared to a sabre2-170. Bonus good karma will be given to anyone who can also compare the pack volumes of these two canopies to Stiletto 170s and Safire2 169s. Thanks much.
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ok, as this topic has been discussed many times (7 cells vs 9 cells), it's silly for yet another thread to appear. Nevertheless, to be constructive.. This weekend I realized that I actually have about equal amount of jumps between 7 cells and 9 cells :) 7 cells by far have less flare power. No doubt about it (I have no tried the new PD canopies that everybody raves about, so don't know how those compare). Now, just because they have less flare does not mean that they dont have enough - just don't expect your 7cell to fly/flare like a 9 cell and you'll be fine. Same goes for the reserves, where I really believe that the "problem" people are having is not the canopy being a 7 cell, but the canopy being made from F111, thus needing a different flare. But both are quite nice to fly once you are used to them. Traditionally 7 cells are more forgiving, and that's why many WS pilots prefer them. (short of the Diablo :) This year so far I have jumped : Spectre 120 dacron lines Spectre 135 microlines Spectre 150 microlines Sabre2-120 microlines Sabre2-135 microlines Saber2-150 microlines Heatwave 120 microlines Heatwave 135 HMA w/ H-mod Heatwave 150 microlines Crossfire2-149 vectran Safire-129 microlines Vengeance 120 microlines Mojo 240 dacron Troll DW MDV 265 dacron Blackjack 280 CUS dacron Ace 280 dacron Parafoil 252 Raven2-218 microlines (as a main) PDR160 (reserve ride) microlined Stiletto 135 microlines Stiletto 120 microlines Sabre-170 microlines Cobalt 135 microlines and H-mod FWIW My favorite by far has been the Spectre 120 w/ dacron :) I am 180lbs + gear
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canopy at 69 jumps saffire 1 164.5 (precision made offsizing wierdness) canopy at 261 jumps sabre 2 170 canopy at 450 jumps sabre2 150 canopy at 500 jumps crossfire2 129 canopy at 750 jumps crossfire2 119 canopy at 829 crossfire 2 109/FX 99 canopy at current Velocity 103 demo'd in between samurai 120 katana 120 katana 107 Neos 104 one jump wasnt into it then but am going to give it another shot eventually Dave Cheers Dave http://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.
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Bad Ass Swoops from an amateur
CanuckInUSA replied to CanuckInUSA's topic in Swooping and Canopy Control
Chuck From what I hear about their on heading openings, wouldn't a Crossfire2 be a good canopy for an advanced wingsuit pilot? But then again it's not from PD (which may effect you, but not me). I really have enjoyed my Sabre2 (the 190 and especially my 170 and I enjoyed the 150 I demoed a few weeks ago). But since PD doesn't have a competitor to the Crossfire2 (yet) and I'm not really up for a Stilleto, I'm likely going to be flying a Crossfire2 (or maybe a Samurai) as my next canopy. But I may come back to PD in the future (LOL ... I'm still flying PD as my main and reserve so I haven't left them ... yet I talk as if I have). Try not to worry about the things you have no control over -
I said all of these until one day I got a little turf surf by accident to get myself out of a puddle and was like hmmm that is fun so I tried to start doing it at like 200 jumps at 260 I left a divot and wound up with titanium upsized to a sabre2 170 jumps 261-265 I swore I wouldnt swoop again jumps 266 decided I would and carved a 90 and got some nice swoop out of a sabre2 170 jumps 266-425 learning to swoop under a sabre 2 170 jumps 426-495 swooping under a sabre2 150 jumps 495 - 680 swooping under a crossfire 2 129 somewhere in there I got a shitload of canopy coaching and instruction by brian germain and was told maybe it just might be a good idea to downsize one size 680-693 (current) learnign to fly the 119 crossfire2 and all of this after I swore swooping was going to be much later in my career... so my reccomendation...wait hone your skills get coachign on pattern accuracy and general flying of your canopy...learn how all of your control inputs affect how your canopy flies...and ask a shitload of questions...remember you do not have to rewrite the book, many people before you learned the hard way so perhaps you dont have to... Cheers Dave http://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.
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I currently jump a sabre2-135, and was posting recently about possibly buying a crossfire2-119. I have decided that I going to buy a wingsuit this summer and do most of my jumping on that, so will stick with a sabre2. But I would like a smaller one. Used to load my 135 at 1.55 for 200 jumps, now load it at 1.41. I could get a 120 loaded at 1.6 but was leaning towards a 107 loaded at 1.75ish. Is it a really bad idea to skip sizes when downsizing, or should I look at getting a 120 first. I have no doubt that I could handle a 107, but I have also never seen anyone with a highly loaded sabre2 so wouldn't mind a few opinions. Was planning on doing 30 or so wingsuit flights with my 135 before considering changing canopies anyway, and thought that a small sabre2 would have more suitable opening characteristics than a crossfire 2. Thanks, Graeme
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