robibird

greeny, It looks to me that you attacking Hans w something he never said or write. I disagree w many things here, especially w this :''One thing I do like about Jeb is he doen't give a fuck what we all think'' He is way to smart boy to be as you think he is. He care a lot about what some people saying, and believe me that what Hans wrote here was well received by Jeb. Regarding Luigi ( I do not know him personally ) I can only say that he for sure know that he did a mistake. He is aware that he was so close to die that he will think twice before he make next similar jump. They both know what was wrong / good and both knows what to improve. Hans was saying that in general flyers need to be aware what they touching when they even think to play w terrain or proximity flying. Believe me Hans knows what he saying. Such type of flying need full understanding of all elements related to WS . Also, requires many BASE jumps w nice terrain to play with. PS Rob's death is not in any relation w proximity flying.. Robert Pecnik [email protected] www.phoenix-fly.com

Hello, I am happy to see my friend Jeb and Luigi succeeded the mission they planed again. I heard about their plan while ago. When I was checking the area, I noticed that flight will be tricky but possible. Great that both went through the stunt OK. If I may comment this flight and flight pattern I would say that this is not the best way to do it. The flying style was rather falling than flying..(agree w Hans, similar to DW style when he died http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2785747;#2785747 ) Even tracking can be easily better than the glide those guys had during their pass over and under the arm Much easier would be to attack w steep approach and flatter overall glide than falling slow and shaky. The speed on terrain flying must be way higher! Higher than is any normal skydive WS jump or standard BASE performance jump. It can be done w max glide ratio too, but than flyer must be familiar w terrain and the risk is always way higher. Another issue is that such stuff can not be trained much from the plane. It require more BASE WS flying on '' easier'' spots, slowly progressing to harder ones... Flying around tandems or canopies is different and easier than flying over hard ground... As far as the sponsors goes: They were on right time and right place once -that is it... we all wish the same more or less... :). Both guys are skilled in their main core ( BASE and swoop) Both guys have absolute right to play and explore what else they can do and I wish them best. We all have right to be jealous too ha, haa... For the end: Touching the trees was not planned thing, meaning it was MISTAKE but luckily w no ultimate consequence. Robert Pecnik [email protected] www.phoenix-fly.com

avoid to comment rumors on any forum. recent comments on DZ.com about hungarian killed base jumper was perfect example how wrong all can be. comments based on rumors are pointless. Robert Pecnik [email protected] www.phoenix-fly.com

hi, It was nice event. I am especially happy because among few big flocks, few technical flocks and a distance event was included too. The interest for distance was higher than I expected and that is really good. In order to eliminate the fear factor Robi Jones and I went up to make distance check and wind condition check, jumping the flight pattern which was later repeated in the first round and modified in the second round. None of my three jumps were into the wind nor down wind. There was a side wind or no wind during the flights. Interesting is data I got from the third jump. GR of last round is about 1.48 (3261 m high, 4827 m distance) Agree w Scott that endurance factor was the cause of having quite sloppy GR. However, That is the start. There are many ideas how to run this event next year . Shortening the altitude and keeping the whole distance competition over the DZ area will probably make all judging and organization much easier . Also, I guess this way it will encourage even more jumpers to go for the competition. Thank you for attending the Z-flock& dock and Congratulations Jeff . I am going to jump now Robert Pecnik [email protected] www.phoenix-fly.com

45-degree exit is not good exit. often end head low. Best is to jump flat... Regarding the position during the flight, you are correct. Head low , pitch angle low.. That is the formula. Short way of description would be - keep the speed, regardless you might feel is not right. Speed will provide lift , lift will provide altitude

Disagree....Please give me practical evidence In your mathematical model it may look like this but, myy experiance shows me different. Robert Pecnik [email protected] www.phoenix-fly.com

NO Robert Pecnik [email protected] www.phoenix-fly.com

to me this problem should be addressed to the container only. If this was classic suit the wing area is really small and if you idealy cover the container top, than maybe this can lead to some delay, personally I do not believe this is possible. Wings may create bigger turbolence behind the body but this shouldn't be a reason as well cause so many jumps were done in the way were the pilotchute were thrown in to the heaviest burble possible and worked well. Lately we witnessing perfectly packed rigs were flaps refuse to open due the lack of tension against the pin... I would guess that this might be the case here as well... Robert Pecnik [email protected] www.phoenix-fly.com

Guys luckily this is just open thread about some WS stuff. We all talk what we want and that is great. I feel that discussion about what to do and what is more important went bit in to dead end. I think that some of the people may think that I am the BASE jumper who push the performance against flocking or something like this... I wanna be clear here, I am not pushing performance against flocking, I am emphasizing performance only. Performance can be combined with flocking and as the result we have super great jump. I am all for having great flocks and enjoy the group flying. What I do not like to see is the style were flockers has lower legs hidden behind the but while pushing arms down. That is falling - period. To support my thought James just post those photos which show clearly that we enjoy flocking as well even though we are also BASE jumpers. I very often take time and flock from the plane or in BASE. Also, on WS arena the weight playing the big role if the only data set is the vertical speed. This way the heavier guys may find them self frustrated. There is no reason to be like this. Lighter people in case of true comparison ( were vertical speed matters only ) should have proportionally smaller wing suits-right. As this is not the case, those guys can go and speak loud how good the out fly , let say heavier guys... big deal... What is the future of WS?! To fly further and longer-right?! This we can achieve by producing more lift and less drag - period. To make this , wingsuit need to flown properly. To learn how to fly WS properly, we need to understand what and how to do. Simple. If we all go for the same goal, it is irrelevant what kind of jumps we do in between those were we explore our own best possible performance. Flocking is great Performance is great Skydiving in general is great Robert Pecnik [email protected] www.phoenix-fly.com

Low 100s? James, Robi, JN or i are all 150+ lb. Ah, got sucked into a silly vertical speed subject again... It's the glide that matters, and weight is irrelevant for L/D bsbd! Yuri. Just step on the scale , my god!!! I am 178 lb damn winter! Kiding, I am between 175-180 for last ten years

Yuri, Stop looking at the WS as something like rigid plane. WS w the human body in it is not the definite flying object (I said this so many time ) What AOA I suggest?! This Q is impossible to answer. Each jumper has body weight distribution different. I suggest something easy to understand, which apply to every WS - keep the speed!! Proportion is different. Results depends on so many factors, so that is why WS , regardless of the WS types is demanding toy to learn. Body position which is good for you will not apply to me. Yuri as far as GR discussion goes, I will never cut the flight in to the parts. Either, jumping from the plane or cliff I am looking the whole jump because every flight has the same elements so my final interest is how far I flew. This level of discussion is enough for this forum. more than this I rather sit and talk w you Robert Pecnik [email protected] www.phoenix-fly.com

What glide ratios are you guys getting by doing this? Are you correcting it for the wind? How do you work with this data? For example, if you're getting 2.0, then improve to 2.2, 2.4 and kind of reach the limit there, how do you know that there's no, say, 2.8 by using a different flying technique? (e.g. balancing the suit, maintaining angle of attack control, taking it's dependency on both pitch angle and glide angle itself (which in turn depends on AoA and so on) into account) Yuri[/Quote Knowing basic references near your DZ is always good because it gives you immediate info if your flight is crap or good. Using Google earth for anything more than this is pointless. Robert Pecnik [email protected] www.phoenix-fly.com

Teaching ''student'' ( by student - I mean someone who is fresh in general with whatever discipline of our sport) or teaching experienced skydiver is not the same. Heaving student organized and prepared for jump is different. Bother such person w fine tuning is just useless. ''Student'', no matter what you talking will focus on the parts of the jump were HE things HE is the weakest. Instead of talking for hours about whatever, better is to recognize those segments and help student to go through it easier. Faster student cover each segment , faster learning curve is. For example, insist on not to be washy, or expect that one will not be washy or to expect the one will hold good proximity to other flyers is waist of time if student has no sufficient experience in RW jumps....in other words, for skilled RW jumper WS formation is super easy if he knows how to use the WS. Unfortunately, Wingsuiting as discipline is very often presented way more complicated than actually is. Why, that is another subject to discuss... Skill comes from knowledge and practice, knowledge comes from understanding. If there is no understanding about something, than it is so easy to fall in to the trap of making tons of jumps without improving at all ( goes for every discipline in our sport). Understanding how WS works is and always be my #1 subject to my ''student''. That is why I think is good to show and teach people to use WS first for flying as best as you can. Of course, Heaving Z-hills as the DZ or some smaller DZ is different thing. What is popular here is not popular at some other place so... it is not all in our hands anyway. Robert Pecnik [email protected] www.phoenix-fly.com

anything what out pops or popping up may become a subject of target ! Texan flock using shoot guns, here Kalashnikov is more popular - so be careful!!!

Guys & gals, Talking with so much passion about vertical decent in way ''who is going slower'' is entirely wrong. Data such vertical speed does not have any skill value. If one jumper has very low speed on vertical decent, this saying more about his/her proportion , rather than skill. Very great example is Ryan (Chuck mention his recently) were he flies great in his suit. In general, lack of good and honest data about GR, horizontal component and winds directions in different altitudes unfortunately is placing vertical speed data as primary measurement of someone ability. In other words, the Vertical speed can not be taken as the judgment of '' how flight is good or bad'' without having other data. Why?! Because that way of understanding the WS flying / falling automatically place the lighter guys to become super great pilots while heavier has less chance to get in to the frame, regardless of their exceptional skill ( just because their vertical is higher than of the another naturally skinnier jumper?!) Also having the vertical speed only as the tool to show student if he/she fly good is entirely wrong too. Very often exactly that approach could lead student to start focus on wrong flying position, wrong muscle memory, etc... As the result, we get the very ''experienced'' WS flyer who fly slow vertical (if he is lucky to be light ) but w no clue that flying requires completely different body position. Sadly, flocking formation are full of that kind of examples, even though there is no reason to be like that. Flying together, rather than ''flying'' and checking the vertical speed later are often much more fun. In my experience, flocking are nice if the flyers are using spread legs always , while adjusting the vertical and horizontal speed with arching the body. Kind of French way of flocking.... Once the legs are bend, even slightly, any chance of getting lift is over and the flyer is becoming faller. Keep that in mind. C'ya at F&D Robert Pecnik [email protected] www.phoenix-fly.com

Good point! Yuri did mention that in his post though Pointless. To ensure the protection work 100% as it designed, the protection MUST be close and firm attached to the body. If you integrate the protection in to the rig, after the opening the protection will NOT sit at the place were it has to be in case of collision. Robert Pecnik [email protected] www.phoenix-fly.com

BASE would not be what it is if we would not have nasty option called the tension knot. This crap can happen on every jump, even when the pack job is perfect or near to perfect. This is why I like spectra lines... Karina, Last info about Karina i have heard was at NY time...that she is getting better, I really hope that is true Robert Pecnik [email protected] www.phoenix-fly.com

use protection if you feel better w it, but never forget that right decision is the best protection. that was all about i want to emphasize. i am not using body armor but helmet always (did maybe 5 jumps without helmet in my entire BASE life) sometimes knee protection and good shoes too. enjoy ws flying and play smart and long.

i said what you can read. nothing more or less. haven't been rude to you nor that was my intention. i don't see why you feel the need to replay in the way you did... there is many ways to jump safe. if you feel better w protection - go for it. i never said you shouldn't. what i said is that some statements above are twisted and not really good sample why would be good to jump w protection. at the end it is up to you. what about AAD for base? Robert Pecnik [email protected] www.phoenix-fly.com

------------------------------------------ But what if: You hug the wall and pull away too late never achieving good separation? ----------------------------------------- -If you worries about this than better avoid this wall and train till you get the performance and exit tuned 100%. the progress goes step by step and must be based on personal ability, not on a personal ''wish factor'' only!! ------------------------------------- You find you aren’t going to clear that ridge you aimed for; you pitch last second low over the trees? ------------------------------------- -Make decision on time is much smarter than thinking: ''I have protection so I can afford to go to the trees!!'' Pull sequence and ability to fly canopy while you are under the WS takes longer time than in ''normal'' suit. never forget this. -------------------------------------- You try to prove you can out fly the fjord, the lake, the fence line (whatever), you never quit get to your breaks before you land? -------------------------------------- -Don't count on protection in this case, Honestly , One have better chances to fly over those ''aim line'' if one has no protection under the suit. No doubt that armor ad complexity and restrictions to body and mind. -------------------------------------- You leave the exit point in the wind and rain, get line twists on opening and that big grassy landing area turns into car sized rocks. -------------------------------------- -If the weather is crap ( esppecially if there is no visibility) - you do NOT jump. Do not count on protection there too. -------------------------------------- You leave the exit on a dark moonless night, all the better for hiding from rangers (and you mate hiked too slow)? You can end up with some interesting landing choices. -------------------------------------- -Plan your hike to be there on time , and also make option in case you got late - do not count that protection will save you, your maturity will if there is any left. --------------------------------------- There is one other big advantage to sizing your suit to fit your amour, on all the jumps you don’t take your amour, it fits your warm gear and rain gear. Jumping big wall that gear is very nice to have. I have seen it take 6 hours for people to come down off the top of Norwegian objects when the cloud and rain came in. If you are going to wing suit base even if you don’t want amour seriously size your suit with all you outdoor gear on. -------------------------------------- -I can write the book about this , and there will be 1000 different opinions anway, mostly it is personal choice , but basic is that each jumper must know what he has WS for! Fit of the suit is most important thing if the flyer has performance flying in mind. -In short - Armor is good for those who like it. Knee pads always , helmet always, even on WS jumps this does not harm performance but the rest of the armor sure does! My whole point is that above mentioned answer can clearly show that there is a more simple way to avoid trouble Robert Pecnik [email protected] www.phoenix-fly.com

''horizontal'' opening does NOT effect the heading performance Ryan. It is relative wind to the canopy so canopy has no clue that you ( maybe ) moving forward, canopy just feel the air.

Bravo Valera!!! Robert Pecnik [email protected] www.phoenix-fly.com

Student will do and make what he will be told by his mentor or more experienced friend ( next to him person )-period. Problem is that often, student is not guided nor told. Problem is that they more and more see things and do things and also learn from the same kind of people. In italy to start base takes 6 months.... USA, U.K. Russia?! Dedications, love, passion to try and learn BASE - all this Italian student need to have. What it takes in USA, U.K. or Russia to make jump at FJC?! Not saying that one way is better or worse ( who am I to say... ) just guessing why we have different mentality... Robert Pecnik [email protected] www.phoenix-fly.com

This deflector is still an issue. On low angle of attack it has probably major roll and it helps a lot ( VKB cockroach suit ) On WS it is questionable how much effect the back deflector has. Way to find out this is to experiment w it. From my experience it helps and benefit of having it can be noticed only on performance jumps, were glide is the main and only goal. If the suit is flown in dirty position the real help is gone because bit of forward movement is there due the air deflecting not lift generated.