water landings

[DSE 3]

you're in an emergency situation. You land in water with everything zipped up.
What do you do, and in what order?

Second scenario; You're able to unzip everything.
What do you do first?

[yeyo 1]

My home DZ is very close to the ocean and swamps/lagoons so I always have this on my mind....

If I see theres a chance that Im landing on the water I will unzip everything and undo the chest strap while still under canopy...

But since you are all zipped up, Ill asume there was no time for undoing the chest strap? So this is what I would do asuming I still have everything on.

First scenario I would take a big breath of air right before going in, once underwater I would unzip everything the way I know is the fastest way in my particular WS and loosen the legs straps. I estimate that will take less than 10 seconds. Then with free legs I would swim to the surface with my arm up the way we are taught in water landing trainning and get another breath of air. Then undo chest strap wich takes me about 10 more secs. Slow is fast. Then get off the rig the way I know is the fastest way and swim underwater away from the gear.

Second scenario. Big breath of air, then underwater Ill loosen leg straps, undo chest strap, and swim away from gear. Loosening leg straps take less than 1 second if you know how.

Oh and dont forget to flare!

HISPA #93
DS #419.5

[Bones 0]

"Purple Mike...paging Purple Mike"

[mccordia 73]

I know people basejumping a lot may have have hands-on practice with wingsuit waterlandings at places such as Kjerag and Romsdalen.
There are some interesting forum posts such as these.

Some quotes:

"Landing in water with wingsuit is lethal, and the only thing you should think of, is to release your canopy, float and breath."

"Breath and fill your lounges with air, you will float! Keep floating, and stay calm"

I dont think there is anything in writing on this subject in terms of official instruction or advice.
But 'float and wait for resque' seems to be the general advice coming from the field. Most people trying to swim speak of nearly drowning.

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[SuperGirl 0]

It might be a good idea next time our various home dz's do water training to try a wingsuit+rig into the pool...

I recall handwashing my wingsuit... it filled with water and was extremely heavy to just pull out of the water to hang to dry... wonder how it feels to swim in that...

and yes.. paging purple mike... or others who flew wingsuits over the belize blue hole and landed in the ocean... granted everyone had likely unzipped everything before landing, so it might not be as relevant for the "all zipped up" case.

[fasted3 0]

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you're in an emergency situation. You land in water with everything zipped up.
What do you do, and in what order?

Second scenario; You're able to unzip everything.
What do you do first?

The most important thing is to stay calm. Easy to say, and harder to do, but without a calm resolve to survive, you may not.

Everything zipped up: The first thing I would do is get my arms free. That would allow me to push up for some air, clearing the canopy enough if necessary to get a breath. I'd want arms and hands to do that. With a breath of air, I'd go for my chest strap next. With that open, it will be easier to get the front zippers down. One all the way down, gettting that leg free. Next, the other front zipper, again all the way down. Then dive out of the whole mess, under and away from it to clear water.

With time under canopy, I'd do pretty much the same thing before I hit the water. Going all the way down with the front zippers would be important, I think, so as not to get the feet stuck.

But what do I know?

[yeyo 1]

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Some quotes:

"Landing in water with wingsuit is lethal, and the only thing you should think of, is to release your canopy, float and breath."

"Breath and fill your lounges with air, you will float! Keep floating, and stay calm"

That would work on lakes or fjords, with rescue boats on stanby. But I have to consider there might be 15'+ waves and currents.
The wings fill with water the same way they fill with air and they are gonna pull me down. So Im getting out of the suit as fast as I can.

HISPA #93
DS #419.5

[fasted3 0]

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The wings fill with water the same way they fill with air and they are gonna pull me down. So Im getting out of the suit as fast as I can.

I'd want to get out of the suit quickly too. Just want to call you on the first part. Wings full of rocks will pull you down, but water won't.

But what do I know?

[yeyo 1]

Remember the waves and currents. Think of a canopy in moving water, it sure pulls you whereever the flow is going.
And breaking waves pull you down, Ive been surfing for 23 years. And is gona get worse once the sand gets in there.

HISPA #93
DS #419.5

[BlindBrick 0]

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Just want to call you on the first part. Wings full of rocks will pull you down, but water won't.

I've experience with a canopy that filled with water. Once the cells filled with water, the current caught the bottom skin of the inflated canopy and started heading away with tremendous force. If i hadn't already been in the rescue boat with someone holding on to me, i would have been drug under. I really can't see much of a difference between the cell structure of a canopy or wingsuit with the possible exception of the airlocks may make the situation worse by making it harder to empty the ws's cells.


-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

• Quote

[DSE 3]

FWIW, we spent the better part of the afternoon doing multiple "jumps" into water wearing expert level and student level suits, both fully zipped and unzipped.
We learned a LOT from both the underwater and above water footage, plus the experience itself.
I've read a few recommendations on what to do, and wanted to try them out for myself, so we took a crew of 5 people to an 8' deep pool, rig and canopy.
The training you received for your B license (assuming you actually did get in the water) is more or less useless, IMO, when it comes to a wingsuit.
Al that said, I'm still curious what folks feel is the best practice. If anything comes up that is "new" information, I'd like to put it to the test.
It is not at all easy getting out of even an unzipped suit, especially larger airlocked suits.

[LouDiamond 1]

We've discussed this issue in the past here in the forums. A search on "floatation devices" will bring up several threads with info in them. Likewise, I cover this issue and flotation devices in depth(no pun intended) in the 2nd edition of my book, Skyflying Wingsuits in Motion ( release date TBD currently).

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[DSE 3]

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We've discussed this issue in the past here in the forums. A search on "floatation devices" will bring up several threads with info in them. Likewise, I cover this issue and flotation devices in depth(no pun intended) in the 2nd edition of my book, Skyflying Wingsuits in Motion ( release date TBD currently).

Flotation devices may not be an option, or may not be part of the discussion.
Since you've already written the information down in your latest edition, I'd really appreciate hearing your take on what should be done. Sounds like you've got some real experience jumping into water with a zipped (or unzipped) suit?

[fasted3 0]

Yep, you guys are both right, sand, or current can pull you under. You can't fight Mother Nature.

I worked as a diver for a long time, and I do respect Mother Nature. I will stand by my first point, which is to keep your head. That alone is the biggest factor in making it out of the tough spots, IMO.

But what do I know?

[johenrik 0]

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I know people basejumping a lot may have have hands-on practice with wingsuit waterlandings at places such as Kjerag and Romsdalen.

I've had a few of those landings and the Vampire turns into a very nice flotation device in water. The airlocks keeps the air into the suit nice and I was floating very high in the water until the boat came. I'm a bit scared of what would happen if/when water starts entering the airlocks though.

-Jo Henrik

[phoenixlpr 0]

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you're in an emergency situation. You land in water with everything zipped up.
What do you do, and in what order?

Second scenario; You're able to unzip everything.
What do you do first?

Is that really needed? Why don't you land in water involuntarily? Because 99% you can fly to the land.

Do you have procedures landing on trees?

For the record I usually jump near lakes and had exit several times over the see. I got only one off field landing which was not planned so far.

[DSE 3]

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Why don't you land in water involuntarily? Because 99% you can fly to the land.

Why do you have a reserve? Because 99% of the time your main works....

There is that "one chance."
Out of a hundred and one tries, things will work 100 times.
I saw a very experienced skydiver nearly land at sea, and the smart money says "land way away from the reefs" which means you're in deeper water.
Why enter the water with everything zipped? Because I'd like to know more, and because I do believe there are times when people might find themselves landing zipped up.
Is it "needed?" On the general whole, probably not. Aren't you curious about landing in water? What are the best procedures to follow? What potential problems might arise?
One thing I can tell you for certain; the prevailing wisdom about water landings is 100% wrong in one aspect, and I'm wondering what else we'll discover is not accurate. We tested beginner and high performance suits. Same results with both suits in that regard.

If I can get more input, especially from those that have talked about water landings without floatation devices, or those that have experienced water landings without flotation devices, I'd like to throw their opinions into the mix and try a variety of things while we're playing with this topic in a controlled environment.
Got any suggestions?

[jurgencamps 0]

I remember a discussion on DZ.com with Tomaiello (wingsuit, base, water). I am to lazzy to look it up.

[BenediktDE 2]

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Is that really needed? Why don't you land in water involuntarily? Because 99% you can fly to the land.

e.g. plane climbs over water, declares emergency and the student in front of you is in fear of exiting low, plane gets lower - you hang low under reserve over water...

Just one of a million possible scenarios.

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Do you have procedures landing on trees?

Sure! In my country you may not do your first jump if you did not get basic instructions on how to land in a tree.

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

[mccordia 73]

A good example for involuntary water landing would be a low cutaway, and ending low over a small river or body of water, you would have no trouble avoiding from higher altitude.

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[SuperGirl 0]

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I cover this issue and flotation devices in depth(no pun intended) in the 2nd edition of my book, Skyflying Wingsuits in Motion ( release date TBD currently).

Thanks... you talk of flotation devices and which ones to use and how to wear them (both in your book and in most threads I've managed to dig up), but that still doesn't address the issue of what to do if one isn't wearing a flotation device and finds herself in the water, without having had sufficient time to unzip everything and all that. It may be unlikely and a big "don't do", but it's still worth discussing, even if just hypothetically.

If that's also discussed at length in the 2nd edition of your book, would you be so kind as to share the information with us, or should we stop wingsuiting until the new book comes out?

[The111 0]

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One thing I can tell you for certain; the prevailing wisdom about water landings is 100% wrong in one aspect

Ok, I'll bite... what is that one aspect? Seems that would have been important to include in your post.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[DSE 3]

in light of the recent discussion, I chose to go out and do some actual "jumps", since the majority of the discussions out there seem to be based on theory vs practical experience.
Robi, Chuck Blue both had some good input that didn't make it into this short video clip.
It's hopefully some food for thought, it's not meant to be much more than that.
Yes, different suits will respond differently. Some have thick foam in them, others don't. My experiences showed the foam hinders vs helps, but YMMV.
http://www.vimeo.com/11559773

[SuperGirl 0]

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in light of the recent discussion, I chose to go out and do some actual "jumps", since the majority of the discussions out there seem to be based on theory vs practical experience.

THANK YOU for taking this so seriously and doing all the research and sharing with the rest of us.
That was very cool to watch. Definitely some valuable food for thought in there and interesting conclusions.

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Robi, Chuck Blue both had some good input that didn't make it into this short video clip.

what's the good input that didn't make it?

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

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I dont think there is anything in writing on this subject in terms of official instruction or advice.

That is not accurate. I know I wrote a complete water landing EP around six years ago for BM and it's definitely archived here on this site somewhere. At any rate, here is the correct response:


When you KNOW you are going to land in water IMMEDIATELY unzip everything. Pulling wing cutaways on suits equipped with them is not a smarter answer than unzipping because your egress will still be hindered. Next, UNDO your chest strap fully and let it hang. If you have shoes on, kick them OFF. Land INTO THE WIND. Take a breath before you touch the water. IMMEDIATELY upon water entry reach down and fully loosen both legstraps. If you are being towed backwards across the water by your canopy, that's OK as you will generally be held up on the surface. Whether or not you are being towed, get the rig off of your shoulders and get out of the legstaps as soon as possible. Again, if your rig is being towed, just let it drag you as this is a MUCH easier thing for a rescue party to see.

If your rig is not being towed, stay near it anyway so long as it stays on the surface. This, again, makes you much easier to spot. If your canopy ends up straight on top of you when you surface, punch upward, create an air pocket, trace a seam until you find the edge of the canopy, then get out of your harness.

I have done an awful lot of military water jumps with both round and square canopies, with and without combat equipment. Para-Scuba and Para-Draeger as well.

Chuck