water landings

[DSE 3]

Part II of the experiment can be found online now.
I only put two of the jumps in, simply because it was already getting long. The next event is in a wave generator pool, with the idea in mind of being caught near a shoreline and fairly shallow water.

We also have another session scheduled at the current pool. The input from everyone so far has been very helpful; PM with any further ideas/suggestions.

[LouDiamond 1]

You are doing exactly what I have described doing at the 1:55 mark on the video. That would naturally follow step 6 of the procedure if step 7 was not necessary. One thing to keep in mind is that on different brand suits and or older suits that do not have leg wing zippers that extend above the hip( or zipper pulls without the long cord attached), it may be more difficult to remove ones feet than in the video due to this and or the need to remove ones shoes or clear a suspension line. In this case, the jumper may find themselves in the position found at 1:55 until they can remove both feet from their suit.


Ideally, one would want to have done steps 1-4 before hand while still in the air under canopy and have everything that could be unzipped, unzipped . With suits like the Tony suit, where you you can unzip the front of the suit all the way down toward the ankle, the jumper could remove his/her feet/legs from the suit while still in the air, allowing the tail wing to not even be part of the equation when one lands in the water. From there it is simply removing the arms from the suit/harness and then dealing with the leg straps unencumbered by the leg wing.


Another thing to consider is that when a canopy( round or square) is being pulled by the current and or the wind, there is usually tension on the lines and the jumper is being pulled backwards. Depending on how fast one is being pulled, it may be impossible for the jumper to accomplish anything productive until the main canopy is released and the tension released.I've seen people pulled by partially inflated canopies fast enough across the water that they created a wake until they released their canopy( Imagine falling while water skiing and not letting go of the tow bar).


Typically, when one lands in the water, their heads do not always go completely under water if at all, remember you are flaring your canopy, be it square or round, and landing into the wind, trying to land much like an accuracy landing where you are sinking it in. A water landing is not an opportunity to drag a foot or go for distance records.




Make no mistake, survival floating does work when you do not have a PFD and are in the water for a protracted period of time. One does not survival float IN a wingsuit since the objective is to GET OUT of the suit. However, one may have to assume a body position similar to a survival float to assist in the process of removing ones self from the suit/harness once in the water.


Bottom line: Wear a PFD if jumping around a body of water. Follow steps 1-4 and set yourself up for success in the event you land in the water or if you even think there is a slight possibility you might might have to land in the water.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[elias123 0]

Just out of curiosity Scott ... You seem to know a lot about wingsuit water landings. How many actual waterlandings in a wingsuit have you actually done yourself?

Eli :)

"In a mad world, only the mad are sane"

[skipbelt 0]

bbmg asked me to give my perspective as a naval aviator from my water training . we always flew with inflatible water wings , even shore based way inland where odds of a random water landing were less than 10% . there was a comment by someone experienced with water landings , i agree with his (her) reply . we also always carried a hook knife tied to our gear with chute cord . it's not a good idea to use it to cut suspension lines generally . landing close to shore while still avoiding underwater hazards if visible or predictable should b prioritized . getting light quickly is crucial , the main will definitely drag you to the bottom , keep something intact like pants that can b inflated if u have no other flotation . a signal mirror or something reflective is the most effective day device , strobe for night , off course connected to gear with lanyards . and unless the water is warm exposure becomes an issue quickly , hypothermia is the biggest water killer .

[QuietStorm 0]

SkipBelt:

Thanks for your valuable input to our discussion involving parachute landings into water...... from the Naval Aviation side on water survivability

John K. Bast
Lieutenant - Surface Warfare Officer
USS Sides FFG-14
1990-1994

[elias123 0]

Scott, May I ask you something ... ? I've seen the same question asked 4 times already. Do you have any actual wingsuit water landings? Any hands-on experience? There's a lot of writing, yet not a single answer...

Blues!

"In a mad world, only the mad are sane"

[QuietStorm 0]

Elias....I'm going to respond; but first.

Hey Gang;

I scanned in the photos of my water training for everbody's amusement and "roasting"; April 2, 1989; in Columbia, S.C. by Burke Fitzpatrick; USPA #D-8367 - 36 Degrees outside ambient temperature at 07:30 per my logbook. No wingsuits back then and you "learned" around the campfire over beer at your local DZ from the long time jumpers and not where some "new rock star" could post what they wanted on something called the internet.

@ Scott Campos: I volunteer. I've got a "water rig" old Sharpchuter 245, TSO "B" rated Paraflite Swift Plus Orion Reserve and an old NAA container. If we can find a Cessna jump plane ( as all we have "handy" are Twin Otters and Skyvans ), run the FAA paperwork I will be more than happy to lace on my Blade, fly it, deploy, unzip; and intentionally land into Lake Pleasant, Lake Bartlett, or Lake Roosevelt. My Super Mach1 with full length two way zippers will be way to easy to unzip prior to ditching in the water. I'll have plenty of friends with boats for a retrieval crew. Jump with me or SAR swim in case things go bad.

I am willing to add this experience to our collective body of knowledge. Anybody else care to join this summer in Arizona if we can pull the logistics off? Bring it matha flockers. It will be fun!

Elias: With this topic at 2,677 views worldwide from an entire wingsuit community...NOBODY has offered up any "actual, live, REAL, EMERGENCY, Water Landings into a large lake, ocean, or swift current river while wearing a wingsuit; yet many of us have flown our wingsuits over, near, and around bodies of water that could drown us. ( See attached picture of my wife and I at the Rocky Point Boogie; April 2007 ). Note - my PFD is under my wingsuit.

Why not? Because nobody WILLINGLY wants to do this because we are humans, not fish and the REAL danger of drowning exists. I can assure you when I was flying my wingsuit over Rocky Point or Cabo San Lucas...or my buddies were flying thier wingsuits over in Hawaii recently; the very "ugly idea" of a water landing in the ocean was "processing" in the back of thier minds on every jump as something to be avoided at all costs simply due to the high risk.

Oh yeah, and really nice modern gear is very expensive. Who wants to willingly put thier personal gear into salt water. I noticed in DSE's video simulations and training the rig being used is not his nice and pretty blue and gold Rigging Innovations Talon, or PD Storm, or PD Reserve. Nobody wants to put thier gear into the drink; willingly.

Let me ask you this question: Would you crash your car head on into a barrier wall just to see how your airbag and seatbelt "might" save your life? Or how about this - Stick a shotgun in your mouth, safety on, and pull the trigger just to see if the safety works? Uh...I don't think so.

Some actual live situations are just flat out dangerous and potentially life threatening simply due to elevation of variables that contribute to higher risk. . Look at the posts from Chuck Blue who lost a fellow Special Forces soldier in a parachute landing into water. Or Skipbelt; a U.S. Navy aviator who offered a summary of his knowledge and training when parachutes and water mix together. Many of these "lessons" are written in blood.

So we really can't blame anybody for "not doing this for real" because your really,ramping up the level of risk...and maybe taking unneccary risk.

So why "bust" on Scott? Why not go "bust" on Chuck Blue as well...or anybody else who has contributed to this knowledge base?

Scott Campos spent 20 some odd years, getting paid as a soldier in the US Special Forces, jumping out lots of airplanes, and many...many times into water with a whole hell of a lot more gear on than just a wingsuit. And so did Chuck Blue; some of these guys actually carry SCUBA gear on the jump then submerge and thats a lot more to deal with than a wingsuit. Special Forces soldiers specialize in training other people, in other countries, how to do dangerous stuff.

I think in this forum comes some form of personal responsiblity of the knowledge, past experiences, or opinions that are offered. In my opinion guys like Scott Campos and Chuck Blue have training far beyond what we have ever experienced exercise this responsibility when putting out information or offering opinions in this forum.

Now, I'm glad that DSE has taken the initiative in our wingsuit academic pursuit of knowlege and performed experiments and SIMULATIONS in the well controlled environment of an indoor pool. Nothing wrong with that at all; golf clap!

Even in DSE's video title he says; "Conclusions have yet to be drawn, but we've got what we think are some good ideas and planned approaches." And in his "current pool" simulation he experiences getting wrapped up in lines. A wave pool can't even come close to simulating the nice 4 to 6 FT surf you see on the beach landings at the Puerto Rico boogie.

So before this "post" even came up I'm sure all of us wingsuiters where thinking in our heads; "better have some good ideas and planned approaches if I land in water with this wingsuit on"

But you know what? DSE is getting prepared; he is doing something.....not talking...not posting...DOING. "Be Prepared" I would not be suprised if DSE was an Eagle Scout. If DSE lands in water, his odds of survival are much higher because he is doing, he is training, he is preparing. We all should.

By training and simulations as realistic as possible of high stress emergency situations; we train our minds so stress levels will be lower and the odds of our survival increase due to practice and trained response.

So who really cares about arguing over what I would call "technical semantics". Somethings you just have to do.

So what we all need to do...is get wet! Lets go train! Summer time; lets do lots of water training.

Because I don't care how much you want to say "step #1..step #2"; nothing every goes as similuated in the real world and sometimes you just got to "get'r done" and being trained and prepared is going keep your mind calm and not spazzing out. Especially if you ditch in the ocean with the sun setting, decent wave swell, wind; and the panic monster beating on your back door as the sun sets and you don't see a boat coming.

[DSE 3]

Quote

Elias....I'm going to respond; but first.

Elias: With this topic at 2,677 views worldwide from an entire wingsuit community...NOBODY has offered up any "actual, live, REAL, EMERGENCY, Water Landings into a large lake, ocean, or swift current river while wearing a wingsuit; yet many of us have flown our wingsuits over, near, and around bodies of water that could drown us. ( See attached picture of my wife and I at the Rocky Point Boogie; April 2007 ). Note - my PFD is under my wingsuit.

.

Actually, there are people that have had these emergency landings, fully zipped. I've had email conversations with five people (one of them Robi of PF) about their emergency landings.
They've just chosen to avoid the thread.

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

Quote

Elias....I'm going to respond; but first.

Elias: With this topic at 2,677 views worldwide from an entire wingsuit community...NOBODY has offered up any "actual, live, REAL, EMERGENCY, Water Landings into a large lake, ocean, or swift current river while wearing a wingsuit; yet many of us have flown our wingsuits over, near, and around bodies of water that could drown us. ( See attached picture of my wife and I at the Rocky Point Boogie; April 2007 ). Note - my PFD is under my wingsuit.

.

Actually, there are people that have had these emergency landings, fully zipped. I've had email conversations with five people (one of them Robi of PF) about their emergency landings.
They've just chosen to avoid the thread.

I'd like to thank you and the others who contributed to the thread for the effort you have put into this, and for making us all safer.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[RMK 3]

DSE, thought you’d appreciate this. Of course in Europe, we get matched with differing Google Ads when clicking on video. In the UK, when watching this video you’ll occasionally get an advertisement from a French University for their MBA and PhD programmes.

Maybe the Goggle algorithm is matching up “better get some education” or you’ll end up like these guys videoing their mate bellyfloppping in a pool.

"Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes"

[WickedWingsuits 0]

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http://www.engadget.com/2011/11/15/the-north-face-announces-avalanche-airbag-safety-system-abs-ve/

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