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DSE

water landings

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This subject is good food for thought.

On a Tony Suit should the zeg zipper go up or down? After opening I normally pull it up the suit but I don't get out of the suit that way I have to move them both back down again. I would think if you had presence of mind and you were going to land in the water it would be better to move the zippers down as if you were getting out of it on the ground, but maybe it works just as well either way?

Simon

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Simon,
I did do a jump with a newer TS as well, and the correct answer is to take the zippers to the calf vs to the waist/chest that you'd normally zip to.
This will allow you to get your feet out of the system much more quickly.
Chuck's comments about the wing cutaways are spot-on. Cutting your wings away not only doesn't help; it may hinder you signficantly. Instead of having arms free, what you then have is two arms covered in weighted material.
Water is neutral until you start throwing it around, then it wants to sink you.

Hopefully, no one will ever be going into the water zipped up. It's no where near easy to get even an unzipped suit off. In the event of an ocean landing, you'll want to be far enough off-shore that the waves aren't pushing you down and reducing your ability to control the suit.

[edit]Kallend, I did several jumps both ways. The helmet makes it more difficult to throw your head back, but I think losing the helmet should be a bottom level priority. Depending on the helmet, it too is buoyant (for at least a while).
Order of priority in or out of the air, IMO:
-Get out of armwings/zips
-Unthread Cheststrap
-Unzip legs
-Release legstraps
-Get out/away from the suit
-While keeping clear of lines, stay with rig. It floats (assuming reserve hasn't been deployed).

There is a 5kt current pool not far from here but they wouldn't let me use it during the day and it's dim lighting at night. I'll re-do most of these tests in the current pool if I can bribe them to let me do them in daylight.
Glad some of you find this info useful.

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I am on my iphone and am a bit busy at the moment but I concur with what Chuck wrote. However there are a few more things that need to be considered that haven't been covered that I'll post about when I can make it to a computer or perhaps Chuck will. Between the two of us, I highly doubt you will find anyone here who has more intentional (and a few unintentional) water jumps with more gear on than most would consider feasible.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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However there are a few more things that need to be considered that haven't been covered that I'll post about when I can make it to a computer



I do hope you actually post something, as there are a lot (A LOT) of threads where you post 'running of to do xxx, and will post when I get back' and never actually do, or end it with a sales quote for the next edition of your book. But either way, the actual information hinted at is often never presented.

Not an attack..merely an observation Ive heard quite a few people comment on, regarding your posts on safety maters.
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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well I do have a life and it takes precedence over posting on DZ.com. Sorry if you or anyone else has been left hanging. If it's that important to someone and I haven't addressed it or followed up, a PM or e-mail to me with the question will be be answered.:)

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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If you publicly comment on posts of other people, with critique, and promise/note you will post additional, missing/important information.

Than do so...its called keeping promises...most people in the real world tend to do so..
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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Chuck's comments about the wing cutaways are spot-on. Cutting your wings away not only doesn't help; it may hinder you signficantly.



Cutting away is bad with the old style arm wing attachment which leaves the wings attached to the arms, but with the suits with similar arm wing attachment as Ghost 2 (probably the other newer version of the PF suits as well), cutting away arm wing gives pretty much the same result as unzipping it.
lego

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If you publicly comment on posts of other people, with critique, and promise/note you will post additional, missing/important information.

Than do so...its called keeping promises...most people in the real world tend to do so..




I am unaware of anywhere I have said I promised to respond. It appears you are more concerned with turning this into a pissing contest. If you have an issue with me, send me an email or a PM. Please stay on topic and review the forum rules.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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The question is simple:
You mention there are a lot of missing points regarding water landings.
Im only asking if you plan on posting those, or if its just raising a concern and never getting back on it.

Andreea also posted a direct question to you a few threads back up regarding water landings which went un-answered.

Dont deflect the simple (on topic) questions by turning it into a pissing contest, personal attack or book advertising thread (which is the only thing really against forum rules).

Stay on topic...if you have anything usefull to ad, please do so.
JC
FlyLikeBrick
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Cutting away is bad with the old style arm wing attachment



Agreed.
On the S-fly (chest cutaway) and the '2' series of Phoenix-Fly suits, the cutaway may actually be a more convenient and quick way of freeing your arms up quickly.

On Tonysuits with the wider sleeve, it may be possible to pull your arms out of the sleeve without unzipping. But this last one is speculation, and maybe the above points are things Spot can try if he has any future plans for similar practical tests?

Much better than theory and speculation based on non-wingsuit water landings. Again a big thank and applause you for this one spot!
JC
FlyLikeBrick
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I agree with the point that cutting away on the newer PF suits is similar to unzipping. I'm not sure that it's any more or less easy.
I did use the cutaways on the Aerobat and Phantom, of course neither had any value.
Although I did not try it, I'm 99% positive that one couldn't pull their arms out of the new Tony sleeves. One thing that is _immediately_ obvious is that the fabric clings to the body as soon as its wet. It's a bear getting out of any nylon.

I deliberately didn't wear shoes, cuz I only had one pair with me and I didn't want them in the water all day. I always wear swimming trunks. I did some jumps with head and eyewear, some without to see how it affected things. I did not wear a shirt, which would have slowed things up a bit, as would pants. I jump every single day exiting over a fairly large body of water. Never once have I worn a flotation device. Very few do. In fact, between my jumps over the Great Salt Lake, Lake Elsinore, and Skydive Hawaii, most of my jumps are exiting over large bodies of water.
How many people wore flotation devices on the Elsinore bigways? Zero? How many wear flotation devices flying over Hawaii? Zero (not including AFF students).
I'm merely curious as to "what if" and am willing to go to lengths to find the answers. I have two training DVDs with Justin Shorb and Flock U; it would be terribly easy (and terribly wrong) for me to respond to a question to which I had the answer with "buy my DVD if you want to know."

I'm bothered to see this thread devolve into a pissing match and another "you don't know what you don't know" thread. I asked a question, the answer to which I was not satisfied with, so I sought my own answers through my own experiences. I would never suggest I was capable of thinking out all possible scenarios. There is no way anyone could. I did seek advice from people I know are experienced and willing to share their knowledge. I guess you could call them "mentors."

The information is certainly worth at least as much as anyone paid to receive it. If it's really that meaningless to you, consider how much you paid to observe and consider it.:S

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Having only jumped into the swoop pond from Justin's truck at Lebanon and gone under the surface for a few seconds,.. I agree that if you stay still all zipped up with no rig on and are not entangled you 'can' float on your stomach or back. I did on my stomach but then like you said ,..as I moved and my legs got slightly below my upper body,... the then the waterlocked leg wing pulled my legs quickly with much force down to the bottom.( in thankfully less than a five foot depth so I could keep my mouth and nose above the surface)

I decided then that whether under my main or reserve:

" If" I was going into water with a wingsuit ,...I would NOT take any chances of anything holding water and pulling me down or keeping me stuck in the rig ,...so I would immediately free my arms, turn my rear risor to head for the beach or maybe to closer people on a boat, take my hook knife,.. slice open the airlocks in my leg wing between my legs, then unzip the legs to tne knees, kick the suit off from my feet, kick off my sneaks or sandals ,... undoe or cut off my chest strap and open my wingsuit chest zippers down to my leg strap links, ditch my helmet while checking altitude and wind before turning into the wind ( toward the white in whitecaps)to land slowly with my canopy downwind in the water.

I would keep my knife in my hands ( and I have a 2nd one) as I flared above the water to drop in as softly as I can( to stay shallow). Once in the water, cutaway ( no rsl or sky attached ) bend down to release my leg strap miltay snap links ( I prefer) then up to turn away from canopy like you said,... push apart the risors from my shoulders and swim out of the rig. I would be very careful if there were any waves or currents swiming anywhere near the canopy/lines or even the rig because the wingsuit will still be attached to the rig and the risors and lines will be floating around a bit on or just under the water and the canopy could trap water and pull the lines and risors down. ( large Sails have filled with water on boats and pulled the boat under)

If the canopy and lines hadn't already sunk down below the rig and if I "needed" to stay afloat for rescue I would indeed use the reserve or flotation device I should be wearing to try to approach the canoppy/rig from the up wind up-current direction just to cut some canopy and lines away from the rig so that I can make a Zero P fabric air scope to stay afloat and attract attention.....

Also not my advice but my personal survival plan I think through when flying over the ocean. I always jump in shorts and a t shirt and I would hope to be ablt to slip out of my harness and suit in thsi way.

Spot,...just looking at Scotty's pic from Hawaii made me feel a bit nervous for those of you I saw in what appeared to be flocks pretty far out to sea. Had an arm or leg suit ziipper blown out or a collision on exit, an unplanned deployment or other "stuff" happened out there ,.....would you guys and gals have been ok out in the water?. Did they have a rescue boat stationed out there ? Did you all review the sea landing ideas and have floats. Like I said ,..I was a little nervous for "you-all" .

After almost 1200 scuba dives and 34 years at that,... I know from observed experience that people don't always stay calm and cool underwater when they can't see can't breathe or they feel somehow restrained from getting to the surface.

Thanks for your comment and question here and for reminding me to say something about my nervousness,. If you or anyone has other good ideas about water landings that would make me safer (and yes I HAVE considered taking my small spare air bailout bottle) please share them. "Stoney"
Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

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Now that I am back at a proper computer, I will answer the questions that a few so impatiently could not wait for.

Let me precede this with the simple fact that if one is jumping around a large enough body of water on a regular or occasional basis(such as a boogie), they really should consider wearing a Personal Flotation Device (PFD) not only for the simple COMMON SENSE factor but in order to also comply with your parachuting governing body rules/recommendations. While one may not think that they are at risk of landing in the water on a typical jump day, it should be taken into account that the aircraft might often times fly a pattern that takes it out over the water farther than most realize. In the event of an emergency where the aircraft must be evacuated before the jump run one may find themselves in a situation where they have no choice but to land in the water. With todays low profile and low cost PFD's there really isn't an excuse not to use one when the possibility of a water landing is present.

With that said, if one finds themselves in a situation where they don't have a PFD due to personal choice or simple circumstance, there are measures that can be taken. Since this discussion is about not having a PFD, I will not cover the options to consider with PFD selection and use with a wingsuit. The following is a partial excerpt from the 2nd edition of my book as well as some general comments about what has been put out so far in this thread. For information on PFD use, a simple search in this forum using "flotation devices" will bring up several relevant threads that have a good deal of information and first person experiences with landing in water with a wingsuit and PFD rigging/use. However, the steps below are relevant and are the same whether you have a PFD on or not.


(1) Attempt to land as close to the shore as possible. Attempt to orient yourself to where the nearest land is and take note of fellow jumpers and where they are landing in relation to you.

(2) Jettison your helmet, unzip all the zippers on your suit (optional: remove shoes/socks if you are far enough out over the water that you are positive you won't make it to solid ground. If time and altitude permits, you can also begin to work on loosening your leg straps)If you use goggles similar to swimming goggles, you may want to keep them on as they could provide you with the same benefits once in the water. Get rid of anything you do not need or that you can loosen and or remove safely, now is the time to do it.

(3) Unfasten chest strap completely, and disconnect your RSL if you have one.

(4) Attempt to land facing into the wind using normal canopy control procedures. Flare the parachute to land. If unsure of the wind direction conduct a penetration check and or look at the surface waves of the water to determine wind direction. Landing into the wind improves the odds that your canopy will fall behind you and not on top of you. Water can also feel just like the ground if you hit it fast enough.

(5) Be prepared to perform a PLF if the water is shallow.

(6) Upon entering the water, release toggles and free your arms from the harness/suit quickly as you will need them free to begin/continue to loosen the leg straps and remove the harness/wingsuit from your body. Once clear swim up wind or up stream away from the canopy.

(7) If trapped under the canopy, push it up to create an air pocket and follow a seam to the edge of the canopy until you are no longer underneath it.


Once in the water, remaining calm and controlling your breathing is critical. It may take you longer than anticipated to free yourself completely from your harness/suit due to the sea state, line entanglement, inability to see what you are doing, inability to remove oneself from the wingsuit or all of the afore mentioned. It may be necessary to submerge your head and torso to see what you are doing and or to free your legs from the leg straps so that you can swim free. Using the technique commonly known as survival floating(see attachment) usually taught during drown proofing classes, is the most beneficial as it allows you to assume a body position that is conducive to removing yourself from the harness/suit and it helps you to conserve your energy. Thrashing around and or frantic treading of water is counterproductive in a wingsuit and can make things worse as the cells of the wingsuit can work against you as they fill with water. Using ones arms to bring your head up above water level to breath is the preferred technique both while attempting to remove yourself from the harness/suit and once free of everything if you find yourself in the water for a prolonged period of time before help can arrive. Use of the legs while still in the wingsuit while doing this technique is counterproductive so keep leg movement to a minimum until free of the harness/suit. Back floating may seem more appealing to some but only works in calm water. If a wave breaks over the face when on ones back, water may enter the nostrils causing the floater to aspirate water. Poor swimmers or non swimmers often prefer the back float because they are uncomfortable putting their face into the water because they have not been trained in proper breath control. The face down survival float is almost always the superior method to stay afloat without additional buoyancy assistance.

During this time it may be apparent to you that the current is pulling you away from the shore/land. While a parachute, harness and reserve will display some positive buoyancy and provide some lift to the user for a period of time, it can also work against you. In lakes or rivers with currents and or the open sea, the main parachute can begin pulling you with the waters current much in the same way one is dragged across the ground on a high wind day. This can make it difficult and or impossible to free oneself from the harness/suit. In which case the user must cut away from the main canopy. It is critical that the main canopy IS NOT cut away if the RSL has not been disconnected. Failure to disconnect the RSL and cutting the main away will result in the reserve parachute deploying and eventually pulling the wearer with the current. If all else fails and one has a hook knife available, it can be used to cut leg straps, wingsuit or any other piece of equipment that prevents one from removing the harness/suit.

Once completely free of the harness/suit the continued use of survival floating is recommended in order to conserve energy in the event rescue is not immediate or soon after landing in the water. Another consideration is clothing worn under the suit. One may not be in a t-shirt and shorts when landing in the water. Having unintentionally landed in the York river in October, I can say from first hand experience that your clothing may become heavy and hinder you. This is even more worrisome to the user if you are without the aid of a PFD.However, clothing, such as pants, can also be used as a field expedient flotation device if you find yourself in the water for a protracted period of time. Techniques on how to do this can be found online and or classes taken to teach you how to perform this technique. It is highly recommended that you try this technique in a controlled environment to learn it's effectiveness and the proper steps as it can consume a lot of ones energy if done erroneously.

Another factor to keep in mind is the effects of water temperature and hypothermia. As stated previously, not all water landings are going to be in the summer when it's hot or in ideal conditions.You may find yourself in the water for a prolonged period of time and or cold water. Understanding the effects and knowing how to conserve both energy and heat is critical to survival. Survival times vary by person and by the amount of time spent in certain water temperatures. Here is rough guideline to expected survival times by temperature of water:

70–80° F (21–27° C): 3 hours – indefinitely
60–70° F (16–21° C): 2–40 hours
50–60° F (10–16° C): 1–6 hours
40–50° F (4–10° C): 1–3 hours
32.5–40° F (0–4° C): 30–90 minutes
<32° F (<0° C): Under 15–45 minutes


Use of a swimming pool is good to practice doffing technique but is not representative of what happens in bodies of water such as lakes/rivers and or the open sea where currents and waves will be encountered. Very seldom will you find a body of water as calm as a swimming pool, something to keep in mind when practicing your technique.

One thing that I will comment on that I feel should be reiterated is that use of an approved PFD is the best answer to any instance where a floatation device might be needed.While a reserve may demonstrate positive buoyancy characteristics, it is misleading to say that it is a flotation device. It's a field expedient flotation device just like my ice chest is but it's not designed or intended to be used as a PFD. Call it semantics but one thing I have learned about skydivers is that they sometime hear what they want to hear and or ignore the obvious if it is an inconvenience to them. I say this on the off chance that someone might get the idea that its OK to not use or choose not to use an approved PFD because they think that their reserve will suffice if they land in the water.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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thanks for the very elaborate answer. good info and food for thought! thanks for sharing.


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(1) Attempt to land as close to the shore as possible. Attempt to orient yourself to where the nearest land is and take note of fellow jumpers and where they are landing in relation to you.



I recall someone in Hawaii saying that in the event of a water landing we should either land really really close, or further away, but not on the coral... I guess the presence of a spiky coal reef that can snag your stuff and where waves can smash you into some sketchyness you can get stuck in or get injured in could sometimes make it safer to land further out than to try to get closer to the shore at all costs?

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If time and altitude permits, you can also begin to work on loosening your leg straps



wouldn't loosening your leg straps hinder your ability to properly control your canopy and flare for landing? (I dunno... I've never tried it...)

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conduct a penetration check



hah. kinky. :P;):ph34r:
(sorry, couldn't help it)

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Good information, thanks for sharing.
Most of what you posted was discussed/brought up by Chuck, Robi, and a few others prior to and after these jumps. I was really disappointed that the waves in Waimea grew too large for practical risks in experimenting with wingsuits in the ocean. Some of what you suggest is diametric to what people who have experienced big waves and swells have had to say, but I'd like to experience the answer for myself rather than making a theoretical statement.
In the end, it boils down to getting out of your suit as much as possible before entering the water. If you can't, exiting the suit while on your back (not survival floating) will give you a huge boost in getting out. The reserve/container isn't a PFD any more than a seat cushion in an aircraft is, yet for purposes of survival, it would be foolish to abandon it in favor of survival floating. Attempting a survival float while still wearing the wingsuit is almost assuredly going to drown you.
If you're floating on the container for longer than 30 mins...I'd recommend finding a new DZ in favor of one that won't make you sink or swim.:D

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Awesome! Thank you for posting DSE! In my humble, and low/inexperienced opinion, I think this is very usefull information for wingsuiters (beginners and experienced alike) at DZ's near bodies of water like rivers, lakes, seas, etc. Personally I think I'd be nice to see in the future, when wingsuit instruction is given at DZ's near water, that this information is standard.

Just my 2 cents. :)

"In a mad world, only the mad are sane"

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Thanks, that is a very helpful video.

Q. On a couple of the examples a helmet was being worn. Any advice on leaving a helmet on vs removing it?



Helmets generally float, unless they are a camera helmet that is. I would definitely keep a ProTec on. I would shuck any of the other two I own though.

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I need to post a caveat to my response just to clarify what I meant by unzipping EVERYTHING:

-by everything I DO mean everything, including your main body zips. You can obviously not quickly get to your legstraps and get out of the rig if your main body zips are not completely undone. Pretty much every suit on the market and still flying around the air has two main zippers that go down past your legstraps. That makes it very easy to get to your legstraps. You would play hell getting to your legstraps in an original BM S.U.I.T, or an old Crossbow, but thankfully the legwing is small on both of those. In that case, Stoney's hook knife remedy would be very useful.

Someone wondered where you ought to unzip from on a newer Tony. I, in any of my Tony's would unzip up from the bottom to about the knee, then kick my shoes off, then unzip down from the top and down to the knees.

This is some good discussion, folks. Scott is right on the money about the temperature tollerances as well.

Ultimately, I can think of plenty of instances where it might be plausible for someone to land in the water. Too far out to sea and either blow an exit, flat spin, or just can't make it to shore. Too long of a spot over a dense forrest and your only choice is 200' tall trees or a pond. You get the point.

FWIW: when I am jumping over open water or doing beach jumps my choice of PFD is my old trusty UDT vest that I used when I was on my SCUBA team in the army. It lays flat on my chest under my suit and doesn't flop around like those little belly-band ones most people use which, by the way, only contain one flotation bladder. I own a couple of those as well, but generally just to lend to other people.

Chuck

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I think this is one of the most valuable discussions held for a while. This topic crossed my mind a few times over Lake Elsinore but I never brought it up. Thanks for to all involved, I see a new PFD gadget in my future.....needs to be on option on my next Tony Suit!

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Thanks, that is a very helpful video.

Q. On a couple of the examples a helmet was being worn. Any advice on leaving a helmet on vs removing it?



Helmets generally float, unless they are a camera helmet that is. I would definitely keep a ProTec on. I would shuck any of the other two I own though.



This was my conclusion too, Chuck. Lob and I had discussed this prior to the jumps. T'is why I wore the ProTec. I have an old Bonehead PimpDaddy that I wore for one jump; it stayed buoyant for the period I was in the water, but it would have gotten waterlogged after 30 mins, IMO.
The Protec was in the water for several hours. A Gath would also float for a long long time.

As a curiosity, you and Scott (Robi too) seem to have a lot of experience; how many wingsuit landings have you guys all done into water and what were the circumstances that put you into the situation?

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On Tonysuits with the wider sleeve, it may be possible to pull your arms out of the sleeve without unzipping. But this last one is speculation,



I wouldn't recommend it if it has the mesh net liner like on my Super Mach. That stuff becomes fairly tacky when wet.

-Blind
"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

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On Tonysuits with the wider sleeve, it may be possible to pull your arms out of the sleeve without unzipping. But this last one is speculation,



I wouldn't recommend it if it has the mesh net liner like on my Super Mach. That stuff becomes fairly tacky when wet.



the newer ones don't have that mesh, it's all slippery zp fabric, but any fabric will be more tacky when there's a layer of water between it and your skin. I wouldn't take my chances...

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I have absolutely zero WINGSUIT landings in water, but I am always prepared. Each and every one of my water landings have been intentional:

-the one that was required for me to get my D license back in the day which I did with a Para Commander.
-three that I did as intentional water jumps for demos into Lake Martin, AL with squares
-five ParaSCUBA jumps with rounds and twin 80 open circuit dive gear (two with rucks) all into Shark DZ in Key West, FL
-four ParaDraeger jumps that I did as MFF/SCUBA jumps with MT1-XX HALO gear (one with ruck) all into Shark DZ in Key West, FL
-more than 15 SL water jumps into Shark DZ, NAS Boca Chica in the keys, Roosevelt Roads Naval Base in Puerto Rico, Rota Naval Base in Spain, NAS Antigua/Barbuda or into Gatun Lake in Panama as a member of SFODA 725 and SFODA 355 (SCUBA) when I was serving my 21 years of active duty.

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I have absolutely zero WINGSUIT landings in water, but I am always prepared. Each and every one of my water landings have been intentional:

-the one that was required for me to get my D license back in the day which I did with a Para Commander.
-three that I did as intentional water jumps for demos into Lake Martin, AL with squares
-five ParaSCUBA jumps with rounds and twin 80 open circuit dive gear (two with rucks) all into Shark DZ in Key West, FL
-four ParaDraeger jumps that I did as MFF/SCUBA jumps with MT1-XX HALO gear (one with ruck) all into Shark DZ in Key West, FL
-more than 15 SL water jumps into Shark DZ, NAS Boca Chica in the keys, Roosevelt Roads Naval Base in Puerto Rico, Rota Naval Base in Spain, NAS Antigua/Barbuda or into Gatun Lake in Panama as a member of SFODA 725 and SFODA 355 (SCUBA) when I was serving my 21 years of active duty.



Quite a list, Chuck!
Your input was quite valuable as we put together some of the information and tried different things.
Robi has had unintentional landings; he too had some good scenarios to set up/share.
Thank you for being so willing to share information based on practical experience.

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