How many skydives before WS?

[jerry81 10]

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by the way notsane, are you seriously comparing a 50 way formation or a 40 way stack with basic wingsuit flying with 2 or 3 people?

I would at least draw similar parallels as him.
To illustrate: a few weeks ago a guy at our dz who has about 70 jumps bought a Phantom. I couldn't prevent him from jumping it and even if I would, he'd just take it to another dz or jump it from his private plane over some lonely beach or something. So I did the next best thing and gave him a briefing and flew with him so he had video of his jump to work with as well. He did pretty good and considering his background (hang-gliding, paragliding, pilot...) I'd even put his ability to deal with emergencies above average.

BUT

Two jumps later he went to fly with another friend and I went with them to video again. Although the plan was very simple and I was flying on his right just where I told him I would be, he never even checked to see I was there or acknowledged in any way that he's aware of me- he was too focused on the other person. Also, on other jumps, even though his position was OK and I could keep eye contact, his face had that tense look that tells you someone is on the limit of sensory overload in free fall.

So yeah, while it might not be the same stress or risk level as a 50-way formation, even simple flocking can be too much for someone whose air awareness is not developed enough yet. So as far as numbers go, I'd say that there's people around below the recommended minimum who are capable with proper guidance of flying the suit and handling it when things go wrong, but when left alone (as will inevitably happen, whether it's another dz, a boogie or just their decision) are also more likely to get in over their heads.

[mccordia 73]

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oh and by the way notsane, are you seriously comparing a 50 way formation or a 40 way stack with basic wingsuit flying with 2 or 3 people?

yea...thats not a good comparison...
People on 50 way RW dives and bigway CF dives tend to be much more skilled and in controll of their actions

baaad comparison..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[MarkM 0]

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jump numbers mean nothing.

Jump numbers are repetition of training which gets you more familiar with your environment and equipment. It's like the difference between spending 100 hours training with a gun vs 50 hours. The guy with 50 hours could very well be a better shot than the guy with 100 hours training, but in general the 100 hour guy will be better equipped to handle himself in a firefight.

I don't think it's out of bounds for someone who's insanely current learning wingsuits at 180 jumps or so, but I think putting on a wingsuit at 100 jumps is just plain stupid no matter how skilled the person thinks they are.

[IslandGuy 0]

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After reading about the WS fatality yesterday in the Incidents forum, I'm wondering how many in our community think 100 skydives is enough to put on a wingsuit and deal with it when things go wrong.

I voted for 200 but think currency is also important – perhaps with at least 50 in the past 6 months. Also, I believe it is important to share thoughts on this topic.

However, that said, I’m not sure why this discussion was started by this fatality. It is my opinion that when no handles are pulled, it is not a wingsuit fatality.

No-pulls, under any circumstances (wingsuit or otherwise), are rarely ever properly explained.

After all, it is something that is repeatedly drummed into every student from their very first day in the sport.

-Mike

Play like your life depends on it.

[mccordia 73]

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It is my opinion that when no handles are pulled, it is not a wingsuit fatality.

The cause is unknown..
There are plenty of scenarios where a no-handles-pulled incident could be caused by a wingsuit..

A flatspin (to the point of blackout even) is one of the easiest to think off...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[dragon2 0]

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It is my opinion that when no handles are pulled, it is not a wingsuit fatality.

The cause is unknown..
There are plenty of scenarios where a no-handles-pulled incident could be caused by a wingsuit..

A flatspin (to the point of blackout even) is one of the easiest to think off...

Also, pilotchutes can be hard to find if you're grabbing wing, and I've seen a few handles disappear into suits as well. Both are wingsuit-specific problems.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[jtholmes 0]

i had 34. when i tried out my s1.

if everyone had a different attitude, perhaps we would forbid students to jump WITHOUT a wingsuit, after all, it is a skydive specific jump suit that can aid in finding a stable freefall position and allows for more time to open your parachute.

attitude could be: "OK its been 50 jumps now, you can ditch the training wheels and fly without the wingsuit, but beware, things will happen much faster now. Good luck."


A wingsuit does restrict some movement, and that is the big flaw in my suggestion, but I bet someone could find another. Perhaps this is not the very best idea ever suggested, but it is good to see an issue from both ends of the spectrum and think outside the box.

the whole, wait for hundreds of skydives before trying a wingsuit out mentality is a thing of the past. The suits are easier to fly now, more stable and forgiving.

it is better to be realistic and just share some pointers and warnings rather than tell a newbie "you can't do that, it is poor judgement, if you do you will die" because once they stick it once, you have no credibilty. and, if you do not condone their use of a suit they may not ask for help at all.

it is best to just remind new-comers to check their alti, beware of where they are, try out a chest mount alti, do a bunch of pratice pulls, become familiar their wing cutaway handle(s), or other helpful stuff.

[mccordia 73]

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A wingsuit does restrict some movement

- you travel distances horizontaly (adds complications)
- added steps to reserve procedure (either before or after, depending on malfunction and action undertaken
- severely larger input from your limbs due to wings (flatspin potential etc)
- smaller fov/coa.

etc etc

to speak in the words of a starwars muppet
fun your suggestion is..but realistic..for it is not..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[notsane 0]

Come on, Jarno! Where's your sense of adventure? Why stop at first jumps in a wingsuit? Let's add a tandem rig, passenger and oxygen while we're at it. We let them spot themselves and as they exit we yell "Check your alti!" and give them a hearty pat on the back. At the very least the grass around the DZ will be much better fertilized.

[mccordia 73]

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Come on, Jarno! Where's your sense of adventure? Why stop at first jumps in a wingsuit? Let's add a tandem rig, passenger

Hmm..great idea...someone should make a suit for that and market it! Solid gold!

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[dploi 0]

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I still firmly believe 200 to 250 jumps is and should be the minimum.

I concur. This was a well-thought out policy and is still very applicable. Even if training is getting better, the wingsuits are getting bigger and faster. No reason to reduce the jump numbers.

[kallend 1,623]

What do I vote if I don't believe jump numbers are relevant?

No matter what skill or ability you think necessary to jump a wingsuit, some people will have it sooner than others, and some people will never attain it no matter how many jumps they make.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[DSE 3]

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What do I vote if I don't believe jump numbers years are relevant?

No matter what skill or ability you think necessary to jump a wingsuit drive a car, some people will have it sooner than others, and some people will never attain it no matter how many jumps they make old they are.

...let's just lower the driving age to....6.
I started driving a tractor at age 6, and was hauling hay regularly by age 8. Did my first long road trip at 13. Had my first speeding ticket at 14. And because of that citation, didn't get my license until 17.
Large or small, social groups have found a requirement of some level of measuring experience as a means of determining a minimum of abilities. Some babies walk by 10 months, but it's very rare. Others can't walk til they're 24 months.

We're all different, but don't you feel jump numbers/experience have to apply at some point?

[hjumper33 0]

How many instructors out there jump with their students before the FWSC to see how they fly? My instructor, whom the vast majority of you know as an incredibly skilled instructor and WS pilot, does a tracking jump with the student as a part of the course, practicing all parts of the flight from exit to practice pulls and deployment sequence. I think this is an awesome idea, because it is certainly true that for every sub 200 jump guy who is built to fly a wingsuit, there are a couple of 500+ jumpers who are technically allowed to just try one out on their own, and could really hurt themselves or someone else. If you teach a FJC, its probably a good idea to do a few non wingsuit jumps with that person first, reguardless of experience.

[Cashmanimal 0]

I have wanted to jump a WS for a long time. Borrowing tracking pants and such made me realize how much I would really love it.

Recently I was out at the DZ and brought it up. We had one guy visiting our DZ who was a wingsuit instructor and said he would teach me and let me use the suit and everything for free, and when I agreed he sat me down for about 10 minutes and talked to me.

I had never jumped with him, only met him once before and he didn't ask anybody else how well I flew. When he was told he had to take care of some other students, he put my rig in the WS gave me a 30 second briefing on it and said "enjoy."

I didn't detect sarcasm. I spent 15 minutes trying to figure out how the hell to get my rig out of the wingsuit.

It's all fun and until someone loses an eye... then it's just a game to find the eye

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I WILL NOT train jumpers with under 200 jumps in 18 months and haven't ever. It was not that many years ago that we WOULD NOT train people with under 500 jumps to fly wingsuits. It's already been stated over and over again that it's simply bad business to allow younger jumpers (and uncurrent jumpers) to "just do it" when they feel like it, so why does this stuff still happen? It's simple: because there are people out there (some of my friends included) who disagree with "the system" and refuse to be regulated in any manner.

Jump numbers and currency DO matter! 200 jumps is very little to ask of people. That's less than one season of jumping for truly active skydivers. If you aren't jumping at least that much, have less than 200 jumps in over 18 months, or any other lame excuse, then you really ought to just jump more or wait until you meet the VERY BASIC recommendations set forth by every national aeroclub. Seriously. It's not asking much in my opinion.

Chuck Blue
BMCI-4
Z-Flock Wingsuit School

[hjumper33 0]

Out of curiosity, do you jump with your students before you put them into the wingsuit for the first time?

[Sylvain 0]

In France we've had quite conservative rules since mid-2006

- level 1 (Prodigy, Access, ..) : 150 jumps
- level 2 (Phantom, Sfly Expert, Firebird, ...) : 40 level-1 jumps, french C-licence (so at least 200 jumps + landing accuracy + written exam)
- level 3 (Vampire, Blade, ProFly, Mach1, ...) : 600 jumps, 50 level-2 jumps

BTW we also have conservative rules for canopy downsizing.

-- Sylvain

[jakee 1,254]

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- level 2 (Phantom, Sfly Expert, Firebird, ...) : 40 level-1 jumps...

You have to do 40 jumps on a 2-piece before moving on to a normal suit? That sucks!

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[mccordia 73]

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In France we've had quite conservative rules since mid-2006

- level 1 (Prodigy, Access, ..) : 150 jumps
- level 2 (Phantom, Sfly Expert, Firebird, ...) : 40 level-1 jumps, french C-licence (so at least 200 jumps + landing accuracy + written exam)
- level 3 (Vampire, Blade, ProFly, Mach1, ...) : 600 jumps, 50 level-2 jumps

BTW we also have conservative rules for canopy downsizing.

-- Sylvain

I think that tips it a little bit towards Anal?
And do these rules mean anything to a skydiver with 400 jumps flying a 'big suit' that visits a French wingsuit boogie??

Not really an issue for me, but I could see some people planning trips to Gap, and being in for a huge surprise when they're not allowed to fly their own suit?

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[The111 0]

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I think that tips it a little bit towards Anal?
And do these rules mean anything to a skydiver with 400 jumps flying a 'big suit' that visits a French wingsuit boogie??

Not really an issue for me, but I could see some people planning trips to Gap, and being in for a huge surprise when they're not allowed to fly their own suit?

Also, having flown both, I think a Firebird is easier for a newbie to fly than a Prodigy (and this is not a brand/manufacturer issue).

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

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Out of curiosity, do you jump with your students before you put them into the wingsuit for the first time?

That depends on a number of things. First, how many actual jumps they have and how long they have been jumping. Second, what kind of jumps do they normally do. I haven't had any better luck one way or another with freeflyers or belly flyers overall. If the candidate is only marginally qualified, then yes, I will take them up on a faux-wingsuit tracking jump and evaluate them on their "smoothness."

I do not skimp on training. I give my students a full-on briefing and I cover all the bases. With very, very few exceptions I video every student and debrief them thoroughly. I am positively able to stay up with the most zoo'd out student and show them what they did right and what they did wrong. Attention to detail and not cutting ANY corners is what prepares the qualified candidate to have the safest, most stress-free first flight.

I have trained many, many people who read this forum. Ask any of them if they thought they got anything less than first-rate instruction.

[hjumper33 0]

From reputation I know you as an incredibly skilled wingsuit pilot, coach, and in general skydiver. I wasnt questioning your course, I just wondered if it was common place for an instructor to do a non wingsuit jump with their student first, or this was something people did kind of as they though was neccesary, as you alluded to.

[kallend 1,623]

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Out of curiosity, do you jump with your students before you put them into the wingsuit for the first time?

That depends on a number of things. First, how many actual jumps they have and how long they have been jumping. Second, what kind of jumps do they normally do. I haven't had any better luck one way or another with freeflyers or belly flyers overall. If the candidate is only marginally qualified, then yes, I will take them up on a faux-wingsuit tracking jump and evaluate them on their "smoothness."

.

How do you determine if they are "marginally qualified"?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Pendragon 1]

I know what you mean... I prefer Classics actually.

I also don't think that the Prodigy should be used by sub-200ers either. It's a wingsuit... and shouldn't be underestimated. The PF tracking suit, OTOH, is a great idea at 150 jumps for someone looking to get into wingsuiting (but to be treated with respect, see below)

For the record, it's not just about restriction of movement etc etc., it's about being able to keep in a straight line and not zoom around taking less experienced people out (I've signed people off for solos but not for group jumps before, and asked that they be reassessed later) and being able to fly a pattern rather than flying up/down jump run and frightening AFF and tandem students!

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13