Buzzing tandems...

[ManBird 0]

...is fun. Just make sure you get the right one. The person I meant to buzz and a person I did not mean to buzz had the exact same color tandem parachutes. Regardless, the other guy got a kick out of it, and it was probably my closest buzz to date.

By the way. The S3 is a f**kin SCREAMER! TALONSKY had his on a three way today. I was maxed out, legs completely straight, definitely in full flight, and he still had another 15 - 20 MPH in forward speed on me.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I love to buzz tandems and CRW dogs. So long as you have a definite flight plan in place with the TM or other group, then it's plenty safe. Make sure you hoot and holler on the way by. I have been on both the giving and recieving ends of buzz jobs and it's equally fun as a TM. Showing the approaching BM's to your passenger and seeing their reacton is priceless.

Chuck

[ziboulateur 0]

I've been involved in an animated email discussion about "Buzzing the tandems" and I'm trying to see where the WingSuit community stands on the topic these days. Below is the text of one of my emails. Sorry for stirring it up. Feel free to flame me. I need it

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
This is a great discussion as long as techical and ethical aspects are brought up carefully and
weighted conclusions are drawn.

It is very easy to turn this into a dead horse beating because the topic is so marginal.

Yes, definitely it would be safer if tandem swooping was banned just as low pulls and CRW with
tandems are.

Would it make sense to define first what tandem swooping is or is it really "swooping" at all?

Are we putting in one basket close flybys that in my opinion are 100% unethical and dangerous with
distant flybys that can be done safely? Can they be done safely?

Yes, one can argue about the fine edge between close and far. What far is, 100ft, 300ft, a mile?

The same applies to the flyer's experience. Who can do it? How the experitise could be proven?

If Jari came to our DZ and asked if he could "swoop" a tandem? What answer should we
expect him to hear?

But what about a properly executed distant flyby that makes a tandem passenger, a tandem master
and and the bird exclaim "wow, it was so cool"!

I believe wing suit fliers who want to "swoop" tandems have not that many arguments in favor of
what they are doing except demonstrating that it is not a wreckless meat missil business, but can
be a planned, courteous and safe sharing of the airspace at distances allowing visual contact.

And I clearly hear people who see winsuit fliers as another drop in the ocean of danger that
surrounds DZ business. And putting myself in their shoes I'd say - "dont get ANYWHERE close to the
tandems!"

Do we need a strict policy or there are people out there who believe coexistence is possible?

Since I have flown my winguit a couple times at distances allowing the tandem pair to see me with
previous consent of the tandem masters, I am greatly involved in this discussion and thats why I'm
bringing my 2 cents even though my experience is very minimal at my 100~ winsuit jumps.

Sincerely,

Nikolai Mosesov

.............................

I'm swooping the Moon tomorrow!

See ya there!

[unclecharlie109 0]

I am pro swooping canopies and I am pro "swooping canopies"
IMO an experienced wingsuit pilot can safely swoop a canopy at a reasonable distance with a very good safety margin.

Common sense stuff applies:
- good visibility/ no cloud
- full briefing with the canopy pilot
- sensible canopy flight direction and ws approach pattern
- start with long distance swoops
- but don't get too close etc.

Long flights,

J

[ManBird 0]

I had very few WS jumps when I started this thread, and my thoughts on this have changed a lot. In my usual verbose manner...

STUDENTS

I think it's different when a student is involved. There really aren't to many students who can fully understand, expect, and accept the risk. You might have the flying ability and there might be a good plan, but the student really can't discern a good plan from a bad one or a good pilot from a bad one. And most DZOs don't want their students getting buzzed. If a DZO says no, respect it.

FLYING ABILITY

If politics and student acceptance are not an issue, the next thing to worry about is flying ability. Most people don't know how to define this. In this case, it's the ability to fly safely around other canopies, and you should really only build up this skill with experienced canopy pilots. Start with HP canopies that have a flight that almost matches yours and then move on to bigger and slower as you get better at it.

The canopy pilot needs to be experienced and heads up, as well. They also need to be able to execute a plan very well, and accept that part of collision avoidance is out of their hands.

PLANNING

Planning is essential. Altitudes for deployment and breakoff must be followed strictly for it work, and to be done safely. There must be a period allowed for the canopy pilot to head in the right direction, followed by a period of working time, where the canopy pilot must NOT change heading or make any turns, regardless of whether s/he is passing the DZ or whatever. There also must be outs planned -- if the canopy pilot dumps too low or mals, abort, etc.

WHEN IT'S OK

When I was down in DeLand, there was a man doing an article for Popular Science. He already knew a lot about wingsuits, but had never made a jump. He planned to do a tandem and have Jari give him a buzz. They made an excellent plan with outs (and the buzz was aborted, actually). So you have a student that fully understands the concept and risks, a very experienced wingsuit pilot with a lot of experience around other canopies (this was after Jari docked with Vladi), a good plan with outs, an experienced tandem instructor, and a DZ that OKed it all. Even though the buzz didn't happen, these were, IMO, acceptable circumstances.

WHAT IS A BUZZ?

Good question from Nikolai... what constitutes a buzz and a "safe" flyby? 100'? 500'? I believe the policy is 500' at our DZ. I'm generally too far away on the other side of jump run for it to even matter. I think the definition of a flyby changes with ability. Some wingsuit pilots drift a LOT and don't know it. They might have a heading margin of 300'! Others are rock solid and don't drift at all, or maybe a few feet at most. A "safe" flyby is a very different thing for these two pilots.

The ability to control your yaw, angle of descent, and fall rate should dictate what is safe. A good wingsuit pilot can treat 20' as a large error margin. An inexperienced pilot might need to plan on being 300' away to ensure that they avoid a collision.

MY OWN EXPERIENCE

I have over 460 wingsuit flights and I buzz canopies a LOT. I don't buzz tandems anymore. 99% of students I take on their first wingsuit flights get a close flyby once they're under canopy. I've flown relative to HP canopies, and have been very close to very docile canopies (literally under the canopy and to the side of the jumper), as well. I have a practiced and proven technique that I use a lot.

I have done "big-way" wingsuit/canopy dives. We did one with five HP canopies and three wingsuits, where the wingsuit pilots were flying relative to and inbetween multiple canopies. For a decent amount of time, I had a canopy on either side of me, relatively close (the canopies were about 40' - 50' apart, and I was flying between them).

I would feel very comfortable planning and performing a buzz on a tandem, technically, but I wouldn't do it unless the DZ approved of it, the student was fully aware of what's about to happen, and I knew the tandem instructor and trusted his/her ability to execute a plan. That's a rare occassion.

ONE LAST THING

Personally, I prefer flying relative to HP canopies for a long time over buzzing a big canopy for just a moment.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[kevin922 0]

I was told recently by a USPA rep that a new BSR is in place with respect to this, and it has been stated in the BSR (which I havent read yet) it is a violation to buzz tandems.

just FYI

[ManBird 0]

Wow. Well... that settles that.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[ziboulateur 0]

Hmmm, I'd love to read it. I'm curious how they define "buzzing"...

Thanks for the replies!!!

[leroydb 0]

What is the distance the BSR states?

Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

[kevin922 0]

Quote

What is the distance the BSR states?

I haven't seen it, call USPA and ask them I guess...

[DaGimp 0]

i have actually had Scott (LD) buzz me under a tandem ba few times, i know hes gona do it so i maintain a straight flight pattern untill he passes.....the most recent was last weekend..and he was like within 15 ft....the passenger loved it.

"Professor of Pimpology"~~~Bolas

[leroydb 0]

did you hear him as he flew---by?

Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

[kevin922 0]

Quote

i have actually had Scott (LD) buzz me under a tandem ba few times, i know hes gona do it so i maintain a straight flight pattern untill he passes.....the most recent was last weekend..and he was like within 15 ft....the passenger loved it.

Yeah i've flown very close to tandems as well, both parties enjoyed it.. and I had full confidence that it was safe. We talked about it planned it and I wasn't so close that I would hit the person if I looked away or something. They could easily hear me both vocally and "naturally" as I flew by.....

I've never been swooped super close myself though that would be neat.

The BSR as i understand it is for "students" including tandems.. but does not apply to experienced jumpers.

Kevin

[VectorBoy 0]

....the passenger loved it.

[crutch 0]

This is what actually got me started with a wingsuit, watching Tammy buzz by while I was doing tandems. The tandem students love it, especially when they are easy to pick out and watch go off in the distance.

As far a safety goes, there has to be some definite communication between the TM and the WS. But, I am all for the buzz jobs.

blue skies,

art

[Jasmin 0]

A certain very tall (very good) wingsuit flyer buzzed a tandem at the dz and after a few other minor misdemeanors, was told not to bother trying to manifest again!!

Y'anyways, 3 years later, he's finally been allowed back, but he's on a very short leash!!

So be careful who you buzz, all it takes is someone to get a little peeved and you can wreck it for everyone. There was barely any wingsuit flying going on for a very long time and the suits/jumpers who did turn up, weren't regulars/locals.

xj

"I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with the earth...but then I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with a car either, and that's having tried both."

[petetheladd 0]

In General,

Does the WS do the buzzing with the canopys forward motion i.e. approach from the back

Or are some people buzzing from the front ?

No, Not without incident

[ManBird 0]

Usually from behind. Safer, IMO, as well, as there's more time to dial in your path. Though, going from the front gives a cool visual. I prefer to go across on buzzes (as opposed to flying relative). Approach from behind, get a little ahead, and then turn 90°. The visual has to be pretty intense. I'd love to be on the other side of it someday. It's a lot less dangerous than it sounds.

And just for clarification, this is in regards to canopies in general. Since there's a BSR now (if for no other reason), we shouldn't even be talking about tandems.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[always 0]

What is going on down south?

Making buzzing a BSR?

Why not hook turns? More people have died that way than from buzzing.

Someone must be trolling...

I just don't get it

Alwaysa

[LouDiamond 1]

At Raeford we prefer to buzz from the front. All buzzing is precoordinated and cleared with the TM before hand. After deployment the TM will face back into the line of flight and hold that heading until the Birdman passes on the TM's left side. Any deviation in the plan is for the Birdman to turn to the right and likewise for the tandem so that last minute manuevers don't put the two on a collision course. I prefer that the TM has the ability to see where I am coming from and can see me while I'm far off. Doing it from the rear doesn't allow the TM to see your trajectory and if the TM forgot about the buzz he may inadvertantly turn while your on final. Having the TM purposly face back into the line of flight lets me know he is aware of my approach and ready for it. It also allows the passenger a better view of the whole thing than from behind.


Chuck and I did a simultaneous swoop on Padewon who was under a velo 96 this past weekend. It was most righteous as we both swooped the piss out of him and got 2 1/2 + mins of flight on the jump to boot.

I'm curious to see the specifics of this BSR as I can think of many other things that need a BSR than tandem buzzing.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Zoter 0]

Are there any reported incidences of a collision or really 'close' call with this type of practice ?

[birddog 0]

i have buzzzed a lot of tandems as well as flown around them to with in 5-10 feet( carving) and no one has ever had a problem, passengers love it every tm has said it was the best visuels to see some in front of them and then to just dissapear of into the next tandem up the hill.
Prior, Preparation, Planning, Prevents, Piss,Poor,Peformance

Deal with it

[beezyshaw 0]

5-10 feet? I do a lot of tandem / wingsuit fly-by jumps, with me jumping the tandem and Chris Martin in the suit. We do it regularly, I love it, the passenger gets a kick out of it, and Chris has a ball because he has a "target" to aim at and fly relative to...but if anybody EVER came within 5 feet of my canopy there would be a serious ass-whippin' when I get on the ground! That's TOO DAMN CLOSE, I don't care how experienced you are, and there's plenty of fun to be had from a safer distance.

[bodypilot1 0]

Quote

but if anybody EVER came within 5 feet of my canopy there would be a serious ass-whippin' when I get on the ground! That's TOO DAMN CLOSE, I don't care how experienced you are, and there's plenty of fun to be had from a safer distance.

Ditto

I usually stay about 25ft when doing a fly by.
5 to 10ft is abit too close regardless of experience.

-

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[birddog 0]

if the tm is cool with it and iam confidant then there is no problem

Deal with it