fudd 0
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relyon 0
I have the standard metal reserve ripcord and soft cutaway pillow setup. No problems in 7 cutaways. Works for me.
Bob
Bob
ojf1982 0
It wasnt a harness grip, it was a hand dock.
The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over - Hunter S. Thompson
HeatherB 0
QuoteSee I usually recommend the small reserve handles - I view it as the best of both world. Easy to feel and hook a thumb in, yet way less likely to get snagged than the traditional handles. For the life of me, I've never understood why more people don't get the smaller reserve handles.
I agree. I love my small metal reserve handle. Perfect size for my hands, fits perfectly on my XS MLW. I think they are a nice compromise for people who worry about snagging a large metal handle but do not want a pillow reserve handle.
blue skies!
Heather
QuoteDid you actually read that post? Perhaps i'm interpreting it differntly than you, but he seems to make an argument AGAINST soft reserve handles:
(emphases mine)
"However, I do think a pillow makes a better cutaway handle than a reserve handle, simply because, where the pillow is in a cutaway situation, is much different from where it is in a reserve pull situation. Think about it. In almost all situations where a cutaway is needed, you're hanging from your main risers, and your main lift web, where your cutaway pillow sits, is pulled up and away from your body, so your cutaway pillow is literally right in front of your nose. Now think of where your reserve handle is in a total malfunction. It's down below your armpit, tucked tightly against your body, maybe even UNDER the webbing, and more than a little bit hard to see, especially if you're wearing a full face helmet. Now think how much a reserve pillow handle feels like your harness, or a fold in your jumpsuit, especially if you're wearing gloves. Now picture yourself low, out of time, and in desperate need of a reserve handle that you can't see or feel.
Actually, I did read the post, and at no time did I EVER say that Bill was either supportive or against either type of handle. All I stated was that grip strength was not an issue.
People argue that they want to be able to "snag" the D-handle. I argue that anything that can be snagged should be re-thought.
People argue being strong enough in the hand to operate a soft handle, Bill Booth's post addresses this with numbers, not just "thoughts".
These are simply my observations and what I consider a logical argument that soft handles are actually safer than D-handles. That said, I don't care what ANYONE jumps! You make that decision - not me as an AFF/I nor as a Master Rigger nor as a Gear Manufacturer - but you!
You should be jumping what makes you most comfortable, given that you have all the facts of the case....seems to me that the grips strength test lends to an argument for the soft handle as being no harder to pull, and they're obviously less prone to snagging.
It seems that most people who argue against soft handles don't have much data to back up their claims, only "feelings". Give me numbers, people!! With those I can more clearly see the forrest AND the trees!
"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
grosfion 0
For me the pillow is just a fashion marketing gag. Metal has always worked why do you want to change that?
blues
M
blues
M
"For me the pillow is just a fashion marketing gag. Metal has always worked why do you want to change that?"
Thats an opinion, and fine I respect it, but a lot of this equipment was designed for an entirely different type of jumping, ie belly flying on light to medium canopy loadings. Freeflying requires a much more robust equipment setup. Not only because we are now taking grips, launching pieces etc in a very different fashion from belly fliers, the hazards are a little different, freefliers can die from a premature reserve deployment (even if the parachute remains intact and flyable, the jumper could be damaged beyond their ability to control the canopy). This is a hazard that rarely beset belly jumpers with 'traditional' equipment.
Now then, add into the mix the cutaway pad, which was conceived and developed when mains were relatively lightly loaded, three rings and riser design favoured lower cutaway loads, and malfunctions were not as violent. I believe that nowadays, a case can be made for 'swapping' the handle design over. We are seeing more and more reports of hard cutaways, this has, in part, been mitigated by fitting riser inserts. However a violent spinning mal will eat altitude and the forces required to cutaway are inherently higher, these higher forces can be compounded by using mini risers and rings (another fashion decision?).
It becomes increasingly important to effect a clean cutaway at a sufficient altitude (thereby avoiding an AAD fire) to enable effective reserve deplyoment, in order to avoid a main resrve entanglement, a malfunction from which there is little prospect of recovery.
Me, I have a soft ring on my cutaway, and a pad on my reserve.
That is my choice, and I have had long discussions with the well respected Mr Booth, and the knowledgable Hooknswoop over this.
I would ask that people think about their gear choice, the factors affecting its design and operation, and follow neither tradition, nor fashion, but their own sense of what best suits them. Jumpers should consider their canopy loading, where they are likely to be when exiting the plane, and their chosen style of flying, even whether or not they have an AAD....
Given that people have varying requirements from their equipment, it is unlikely that we will see a "one size fits all" solution to this.....
Choose wisely young Jedi...
Thats an opinion, and fine I respect it, but a lot of this equipment was designed for an entirely different type of jumping, ie belly flying on light to medium canopy loadings. Freeflying requires a much more robust equipment setup. Not only because we are now taking grips, launching pieces etc in a very different fashion from belly fliers, the hazards are a little different, freefliers can die from a premature reserve deployment (even if the parachute remains intact and flyable, the jumper could be damaged beyond their ability to control the canopy). This is a hazard that rarely beset belly jumpers with 'traditional' equipment.
Now then, add into the mix the cutaway pad, which was conceived and developed when mains were relatively lightly loaded, three rings and riser design favoured lower cutaway loads, and malfunctions were not as violent. I believe that nowadays, a case can be made for 'swapping' the handle design over. We are seeing more and more reports of hard cutaways, this has, in part, been mitigated by fitting riser inserts. However a violent spinning mal will eat altitude and the forces required to cutaway are inherently higher, these higher forces can be compounded by using mini risers and rings (another fashion decision?).
It becomes increasingly important to effect a clean cutaway at a sufficient altitude (thereby avoiding an AAD fire) to enable effective reserve deplyoment, in order to avoid a main resrve entanglement, a malfunction from which there is little prospect of recovery.
Me, I have a soft ring on my cutaway, and a pad on my reserve.
That is my choice, and I have had long discussions with the well respected Mr Booth, and the knowledgable Hooknswoop over this.
I would ask that people think about their gear choice, the factors affecting its design and operation, and follow neither tradition, nor fashion, but their own sense of what best suits them. Jumpers should consider their canopy loading, where they are likely to be when exiting the plane, and their chosen style of flying, even whether or not they have an AAD....
Given that people have varying requirements from their equipment, it is unlikely that we will see a "one size fits all" solution to this.....
Choose wisely young Jedi...
--------------------
He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson
He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson
QuoteIt seems that most people who argue against soft handles don't have much data to back up their claims, only "feelings". Give me numbers, people!!
I don't see how I could measure in numbers how much easier it is to find a metal handle by feel alone, compared to a soft pillow. I know I didn't even glance at my handles when I had my cutaway, I just grabbed my cutaway pillow, forgot to peel the velcro(
), and pulled it like a MF until it released, then I just grabbed my reserve handle, instantly knew it was in my hand and pulled. I like the feel of the metal handle over the pillow. How should I measure that?
USPA 0
Because the most important part of your release system is NOT to release, that's why it's a pillow.
Your reserve is to important (IMHO) to not use a metal handle. (If all goes wrong, I ALWAYS (well almost always) am able to pull my reserve, if necessaryin the mess above me.
I'm still in doubt about the soft loop handle. But the metal handle doesn't stick out as much as the soft loop handle, that's why I'm sticking with metal for now.
Your reserve is to important (IMHO) to not use a metal handle. (If all goes wrong, I ALWAYS (well almost always) am able to pull my reserve, if necessaryin the mess above me.
I'm still in doubt about the soft loop handle. But the metal handle doesn't stick out as much as the soft loop handle, that's why I'm sticking with metal for now.
The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...
riggerrob 564
Back in 1979 my main streamered.
I pulled the silver handle on my chest.
I lived.
'nuf said.
The next time I buy a reserve ripcord, it will be a small metal handle, with the exposed loop just big enough for my thumb and a thick winter glove.
I pulled the silver handle on my chest.
I lived.
'nuf said.
The next time I buy a reserve ripcord, it will be a small metal handle, with the exposed loop just big enough for my thumb and a thick winter glove.
Hooknswoop 19
QuoteBack in 1979 my main streamered.
I pulled the silver handle on my chest.
I lived.
'nuf said.
The next time I buy a reserve ripcord, it will be a small metal handle, with the exposed loop just big enough for my thumb and a thick winter glove.
But will the small metal handle be on your chest? Will the small metal handle deploy a round reserve (assumption here, a safe one though). I am not saying you should get a pillow handle. Gear comfort is important and metal "D" rings work well. But for the same reason you don't still jump a chest mount reaserve is the same reason you shouldn't not consider a pillow. Again nothing wrong with your decision to use mteal handles, I disagree with the concept of, it worked once, I will go with that method/technique/equipment, etc forever.
Someone else said
QuoteMetal has always worked why do you want to change that?
Round reserves worked too, are square reserves a marketing gag? Internal riser covers? Cypres's?, Velcro-less toggles? Mai and reserve pin protection that works? The list goes on and on. This is just too close to "we have always done it that way", a line sure to put my blood pressure through the roof.
I don't believe everyone should have pillow reserve handles. For some people they are better than metal handles. I think that is what makes it such a contraversial subject, like RSL's, it depends on the jumper and their gear and the type of jumping they do if it makes sense to have one or not. Just because you have good reasons to have or not have it does make the handle right or wrong for everyone.
Not ment to be a lecture, as I know I can learn a lot from Rob.
Hook
PhreeZone 15
Side tangent... should currency play a factor in the decision to go pillow or not?
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
hookitt 0
This is my personal opinion so take it with a grain of salt
For the most part, a handle, whether it's a pillow type or a d-ring, is a handle.
Most pillow "TYPE" reserve handles are not very pillow like. Mine for instance, is a metal pipe. It's very easy to grab. Most handles are designed quite well nowadays. After having reserve rides of my own using both type handles, the difference was not readily noticeable.
Here's something I've done on multiple occasions. Several rigs, mine included, were ready for repack. The owners agreed to let the newer jumpers, or just one new jumper, pull the handles. The handles were both types.
*different size rigs
*different handle types
*small person under most circumstances.
Each emergency procedure was performed and on some occasions the jumper was blindfolded. We picked them up by the risers and made it as realistically difficult as possible with out the use of a hanging harness.
The handle type made no difference.
It did emphasize peeling the cutaway pillow prior to pulling. Hands slipped off or just couldn't pull the cutaway pillow the first try. The reserve handle was never an issue.
Granted this was a controlled environment. But I regularly have new jumpers pull the handles on various rigs whenever possible. THe type of handle has not mattered.
It emphasizes training. Lack of training or practice on any system is asking for trouble. Don't ask for trouble, train the brain and the muscles to do perform emergency procedures properly. You won't care what handle you have.
For the most part, a handle, whether it's a pillow type or a d-ring, is a handle.
Most pillow "TYPE" reserve handles are not very pillow like. Mine for instance, is a metal pipe. It's very easy to grab. Most handles are designed quite well nowadays. After having reserve rides of my own using both type handles, the difference was not readily noticeable.
Here's something I've done on multiple occasions. Several rigs, mine included, were ready for repack. The owners agreed to let the newer jumpers, or just one new jumper, pull the handles. The handles were both types.
*different size rigs
*different handle types
*small person under most circumstances.
Each emergency procedure was performed and on some occasions the jumper was blindfolded. We picked them up by the risers and made it as realistically difficult as possible with out the use of a hanging harness.
The handle type made no difference.
It did emphasize peeling the cutaway pillow prior to pulling. Hands slipped off or just couldn't pull the cutaway pillow the first try. The reserve handle was never an issue.
Granted this was a controlled environment. But I regularly have new jumpers pull the handles on various rigs whenever possible. THe type of handle has not mattered.
It emphasizes training. Lack of training or practice on any system is asking for trouble. Don't ask for trouble, train the brain and the muscles to do perform emergency procedures properly. You won't care what handle you have.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto
Round reserves worked too, are square reserves a marketing gag? Internal riser covers? Cypres's?, Velcro-less toggles? Mai and reserve pin protection that works? The list goes on and on. This is just too close to "we have always done it that way", a line sure to put my blood pressure through the roof. ***
Ok, this thread has obviously turned itself into a monster, so I'm going to try not to feed it much more, but I have to agree with some things that Hook said. New isn't necessarily better, but then again, just because "it's always been that way" doesn't make it best.
Just like RSLs, AADs, etc., this is a matter of what your comfortable with. Personally, I don't think you can beat a rig with dual riser covers, a pull-out, RSL, Cypres and soft handles. But that's me.
Jump whatcha like, but at least have the open minded-ness to think and consider other ideas before dismissing them with a wave and "I don't like it."
I choose to jump what I do because I feel that the information I've collected about all of the options on my rig lead me to the decisions I've made...not hype or yard-talk.
I'm the type of person that needs to know what's going on technically with my gear and the skydive itself...that's why I became a Rigger, and then continued on to become a Master Rigger. That's why I work for the largest loft in Northern California. That's why I'm an AFF/I.
Gather information from reliable sources and make your own decisions...that's the last I'll say about it.
"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
Ok, this thread has obviously turned itself into a monster, so I'm going to try not to feed it much more, but I have to agree with some things that Hook said. New isn't necessarily better, but then again, just because "it's always been that way" doesn't make it best.
Just like RSLs, AADs, etc., this is a matter of what your comfortable with. Personally, I don't think you can beat a rig with dual riser covers, a pull-out, RSL, Cypres and soft handles. But that's me.
Jump whatcha like, but at least have the open minded-ness to think and consider other ideas before dismissing them with a wave and "I don't like it."
I choose to jump what I do because I feel that the information I've collected about all of the options on my rig lead me to the decisions I've made...not hype or yard-talk.
I'm the type of person that needs to know what's going on technically with my gear and the skydive itself...that's why I became a Rigger, and then continued on to become a Master Rigger. That's why I work for the largest loft in Northern California. That's why I'm an AFF/I.
Gather information from reliable sources and make your own decisions...that's the last I'll say about it.
"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
riggerrob 564
Defending myself against a flame.
My decision to stick with a metal reserve ripcord handle is an informed decision based on 25 years of skydiving experience. During that time I have jumped mains deployed by static-line, IAD, ripcord, pull-out, belly band throw out, front of leg throw out, rear of leg throw out, BOC and hand held when I jumped off a bridge.
Every time a new system is introduced, I look it over, then go return to some variation of throw out.
As for reserve ripcords, I have packed thousands with metal handles and dozens with soft handles. Thank you but I will stick with metal handles on my personal gear and all my students will wear metal handles.
In the long run, the type of handle is less important than currency. And we are talking about currency on emergency procedures.
Here comes the sales pitch for USPA Safety Day.
Yada! Yada! Yada!
My decision to stick with a metal reserve ripcord handle is an informed decision based on 25 years of skydiving experience. During that time I have jumped mains deployed by static-line, IAD, ripcord, pull-out, belly band throw out, front of leg throw out, rear of leg throw out, BOC and hand held when I jumped off a bridge.
Every time a new system is introduced, I look it over, then go return to some variation of throw out.
As for reserve ripcords, I have packed thousands with metal handles and dozens with soft handles. Thank you but I will stick with metal handles on my personal gear and all my students will wear metal handles.
In the long run, the type of handle is less important than currency. And we are talking about currency on emergency procedures.
Here comes the sales pitch for USPA Safety Day.
Yada! Yada! Yada!
QuoteIn the long run, the type of handle is less important than currency. And we are talking about currency on emergency procedures.
Without a doubt, I couldn't agree more!
"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."
Designer 0
Call me crazy for not being cool.It,s(metal)because it,s what I,m used to.Having gone through the days, when we tried plastic(failed)(temp),it,s a personal thing mostly.Most of my friends who head down,freely have soft for obvious reasons.That,s cool.Suppose if I went to jumping with others again I would switch for safety reasons.
I have the metal handle, and will continue using it.
I feel comfortable that I can find and pull it in freefall (yes, I have tried).
My main reason is not that I can pull it harder, but I feel I can grab and pull it quicker, and that's what counts in my book.
Has anybody done a study on time to grab and pull, and not only pull strength?
There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
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