Too small, too soon...

[frost 1]

I guess this story will be too familiar for most...

So we had this new kid at the DZ last weekend. He was jumping a VX-80-something. Not a small guy, probably 175-180 w/out gear. I dont recall ever seeing him swoop here before.

He was swooping the pond, doing big turns - 540's mostly. On EVERY turn he was super low, coming out of the dive already in 3/4 brakes. Watching from a distance, locals were commenting on how long before he beefs it.

And he did...

Lucky for him it was on the water AND water level was a foot or so lower then usual. If it was ground... he'd be proper fucked.

The splash was spectacular! After making sure he was OK (he had a few bruises and some blood from a cut on his leg, but no breaks), I asked him to dub the video that his girl was shooting. He was nice enough to let me do it. Needless to say it will make the end of year DVD.

Here is the fun part. He said he had 150-200 jumps on that canopy. Guess how many he had overall? 450!! He was on a X-fire 99 before that. !!!!! Now, may be he was lying about one or the other but still...

Appears that some dealer sold the canopy to him at some boogie... I may be wrong about that though. Now we can go into a debate of responsibilities, freedom of choice etc. etc. but it wont change anything.

It seems like a bad accident just waiting to happen... Chances are, any course of action to prevent this from happening would probably be useless. What can you do?

1. Talk to the guy? He might listen, but probably wont hear. Most people want to hear only what they want to hear.
2. Banning from DZ? There are other DZs around, he'll go somewhere else.
3. Or just shake your head and go about your business, hoping that he will be ok?
4. what else?

Speaking for myself: Knowing what the response to 1 would probably be, I chose number 3.

[davelepka 4]

Fuck that guy. Invite him to hang out for beers, and have someone Tonya Harding his legs in the parking lot after dark. They'll be broken soon enough anyway, so lets just get it over with, and keep the parachutes out if it.

[jheadley 0]

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Fuck that guy. Invite him to hang out for beers, and have someone Tonya Harding his legs in the parking lot after dark. They'll be broken soon enough anyway, so lets just get it over with, and keep the parachutes out if it.

I nominate this for post of the year.

On a more constructive note though, I think it sometimes is hard to get through to people about agressive downsizing if their dream is to be a big time swooper since a lot of the big swoopers also agressively downsized. For example, Francisco Neri went from a Stiletto 135 to a Velocity 90. Also on the PD website, he has this advice

"ADVICE TO UP AND COMERS: Don't care what people say, follow your own ways."

Not to single him out though, he's just one example I could find easily. Also Jay Moledski was on a Jedei 120 at just over 100 jumps according to his bio.

[JohanW 0]

You didn't even try to talk to him? He might not have listened, then again, he might have. You don't know beforehand, do you? I hope I never become that cynical.

Maybe chasing him to another DZ would be a good idea .. if the other one is next to a hospital. Or a cemetery.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[matt91078 0]

Frost is right about the spectacular splash and all of the low turns. Luckily the water didn't break his ass. LifeFlights to Westchester or Poughkeepsie are pretty damn expensive these days. If he'd missed the pond, he probably wouldn't have needed that or a timely EMS response.
Matt

[marks 0]

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You didn't even try to talk to him? He might not have listened, then again, he might have. You don't know beforehand, do you? I hope I never become that cynical.

Maybe chasing him to another DZ would be a good idea .. if the other one is next to a hospital. Or a cemetery.

he probably had been chased out of a dz and ended up going there...

it would have been wise to stop his behavior quickly. maybe not another jumper saying something, but at least saying something to the dzo, or s&ta. so they could take care of it.

[jdfreefly 1]

I would want him banned. But given that it is the Ranch and that goes against the DZ philosophy, I'd say you have to at least try talking to him. You can't get so jaded that you stop trying, especially somewhere like the Ranch. As I understand it, jumpers talking to jumpers is the key to safety there.

I'm wondering where this guy is from originally. Where are his friends that he normaly jumps with to tell him he's being foolish?

Hope he gets smart before he gets dead.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[ntacfreefly 0]

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Where are his friends that he normaly jumps with to tell him he's being foolish?

We had a guy turn up a while ago with a VX 92 loaded @ 2.1+ with 400 jumps. The guy is hardly current, has no business being under that canopy, yet dzo's still allow him to jump there. Go figure.

These things don't really surprise me anymore.

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[johnny1488 1]

I gave him a nice little chat. I also asked him where the fuck he got that canopy from.

Some hot shot at his wisconson DZ sold it to him (not a dealer).

I told him that his friend didnt like him very much.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[Reginald 0]

I'd go for #2. He can fly any canopy he wants to. He just can't do it wherever he wants to. He can go kill himself somewhere else so the people at this DZ don't have to pick up his pieces, which really sucks if you've ever had to do it.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[frost 1]

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You didn't even try to talk to him? He might not have listened, then again, he might have. You don't know beforehand, do you?

Johnny talked to him right after the crash... I came up 10 minutes later and from a few phrases it seemed that the advice fell on deaf ears... i also thought that when someone is on a x-fire 99 @ 300 jumps and then on a VX @ 450 jumps, he probably heard it all before. Probably might even fall in a category of people who are in tune with their body and have been racing motorcycles their entire life.

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I hope I never become that cynical.

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Maybe chasing him to another DZ would be a good idea .. if the other one is next to a hospital. Or a cemetery.

You're on your way

[frost 1]

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On a more constructive note though, I think it sometimes is hard to get through to people about agressive downsizing if their dream is to be a big time swooper since a lot of the big swoopers also agressively downsized. For example, Francisco Neri went from a Stiletto 135 to a Velocity 90. Also on the PD website, he has this advice

"ADVICE TO UP AND COMERS: Don't care what people say, follow your own ways."

Not to single him out though, he's just one example I could find easily. Also Jay Moledski was on a Jedei 120 at just over 100 jumps according to his bio.

You're right... I wonder how many big names were considered a hazard to themselves when they were just starting out... You do it long enough and survive you WILL get better. May be this kid will be the next Top Swooper someday

[ntacfreefly 0]

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I think it sometimes is hard to get through to people about agressive downsizing if their dream is to be a big time swooper since a lot of the big swoopers also agressively downsized. For example, Francisco Neri went from a Stiletto 135 to a Velocity 90. Also on the PD website, he has this advice

A lot of the 'big name' swoopers started when those downsizing trends were common. Also right about the same time fatality rates were higher than ever for hook turns.

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"ADVICE TO UP AND COMERS: Don't care what people say, follow your own ways."

I doubt he meant that in regards to downsizing but I can't speak for him.

However what Frost says is true. Eventually he'll get better and, potentially, become a better known swooper.....OR.....he'll die, or break himself and quit. Most of the time, it's the latter. Those aren't really good odds IMO.

Blues,
Ian

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[PhreeZone 15]

Can I take his name in the bounce pool? I should get about even odds, but at least I might as well make some money off of something like this.

I just lost a good friend a month ago and just got back from his ash dive today from a similar, but less agressive canopy progression and flight pattern. Its stupid when people act like this but there was a poster on here that did the Xfire2 99 thing at like 500 jumps at a 2:1 loading after doing another stupid canopy progression but no one could talk sense into him aince he "pulled high and had more canopy time then people with 3 times his jumps". He'd do about 50 jumps a year and would show up to swoop the pond at WFFC every year throwing the same 270+ turns. I see he's now on an FX 86 at 2.1 and 200 jumps over 3 years. You can get most people to listen eventually.. but usually thats after so much nagging and talking that unless they are a real friend everyone else gives up. Then there still some that will not listen no matter what, for those people I hope they don't have a family since it sucks to have to call them telling them they need to go to the hospital.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[fab777 0]

Just to add to the debate:

We in France are subject to respect a No of jumps vs weight table, which define the minimum size of canopy you are allowed to use. It's a pain in the ass, since it's pretty restrictive, and apply to all jumpers with less than 600 jumps, with progressive downsizing possibility.

But at least, it surely saved some ass, and still will.

Fabien
BASE#944

[phoenixlpr 0]

Anyone can kill himself by the table too. So what is the point in it?

I'd prefer a mentoring system.

[kefran 0]

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I'd prefer a mentoring system.

i can do nothing but agreeing this !

i just jumped a hurricane 150, which is quite a real downsize for me as i was jumping a 185 zp-exe until now. i just came to my fav instructor (the one who get me out of a plane for the first time) and asked him what should i know before flying the 150. my last question was really simple and just needed a yes/no answer : «sincerely, do you think that i'm ok doing this ?»
but i still didn't even tried to swoop ... i will rather first learn to land it in various conditions

i guess that a mentoring system during let's say the firsts 500 jumps would be really effective

--------------------------------------------------
I never used 2 rocks to start a fire ... this is called evolution !

[B.A.D.D. 0]

i think it's pretty sick and twisted that ppl would make comments such as "lets tonya harding his legs." and "put him in the bounce pool." skydivers shouldn't wish bad things on other skydivers. karma has a way of coming back to haunt ya. (pull high!!)

as for the kid. it doesnt matter if you talk to him, ban him, ect. why? one he'll problly tell you to piss off. unless your famouse in the world of swooping and get paid to do it, then he's gonna care less.

if you ban him hell just jump somewhere else. and talk shit about your dz and tell everyone about the pricks that jump there. which will slow down business and give your dz a bad name.

a great man and skydiver once told me, " if your gonna be stupid, ya better be tough!!!"

<> if you jump naked, can you use your penis as a rudder?<>

[maretus 0]

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Anyone can kill himself by the table too. So what is the point in it?

I'd prefer a mentoring system.

Mentoring system is great... In ideal world. In ideal world there are qualified instructors on every DZ who are keen on mentoring new people in sport. In ideal world newbies are keen on seeking for advice and looking for instruction and advice.

But too bad that we do not live in ideal world. Reality is that (at least in smaller countries like Finland) there are not qualified canopy flight instructors on every club. And also the reality tends to be that not every newbie has an open mind for looking instruction and advice... And that's why we have to set certain rules and tables and restrict what you can and cannot do.

http://www.ufufreefly.com

[stayhigh 2]

Wow, at that rate he might break the record of 39 sq ft.. I personally think if he has super athletic ability so he can land in any situation and not endanger other jumper then fine with me....

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[GravityGirl 0]

All of the above.

Talk to him. Ban him from jumping that canopy on your DZ. Call the neighboring DZs and let them know that he was banned from your DZ on that canopy and why.

On the talk portion, I like to appeal to the ego instead of attacking it.

Ex: "Wow. You are really good for your jump numbers. I'm impressed. For someone who has natural talent, your choice of canopies seems off though. It looks more like that canopy is flying you, rather than you flying that canopy. You may want to consider a progression that really shows off your skills and allows you to become the master of your parachute. Anyone can fly a small parachute. Few can master them. The degree of the turn does not indicate mastery. It's your ability to find that sweet spot where there is virutually no input required to come out of that turn. To be able to direct and redirct at will and with ease. To have the ability to build speed on ANY canopy. In short. It's a cheap way out to try to buy a canopy that does the flying for you. You're better than that. I can tell you have natural talent."

Something like that....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[mdrejhon 8]

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Ex: "Wow. You are really good for your jump numbers. I'm impressed. For someone who has natural talent, your choice of canopies seems off though. It looks more like that canopy is flying you, rather than you flying that canopy. You may want to consider a progression that really shows off your skills and allows you to become the master of your parachute. Anyone can fly a small parachute. Few can master them. The degree of the turn does not indicate mastery. It's your ability to find that sweet spot where there is virutually no input required to come out of that turn. To be able to direct and redirct at will and with ease. To have the ability to build speed on ANY canopy. In short. It's a cheap way out to try to buy a canopy that does the flying for you. You're better than that. I can tell you have natural talent."

You know -- I do the same thing when talking to people about how to use a more advanced feature of a digital camera, or something like that.

A lot of people don't listen easily unless you also compliment them too at the same time.

Unfortunately, sometimes it's the only way to successfully do a last resort... And even so, does not always work.

(Note: I'm not swooping yet, though I eventually want to)

[Pendragon 1]

Check out the "CP Manual" on the BPA website.

http://www.bpa.org.uk/safety.htm

AFAIK, the UK is the only country who's skydiving governing body has put formal procedures in place to govern swooping.

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[bofh 0]

In Sweden we have rules against hook turns unless you have 500 jumps + have passed a canopy handling course.

Simple both fronts approaches are still allowed.

[Stumpy 256]

Ah - the "Praiseburger"

Used to be called the "McPraise" but macdonalds sued

Never try to eat more than you can lift