Dash M Service Bulletin

[SBS 0]

I'm not trying to change your mind, but just food for thought....
I have had a good ride on a Swift Plus 145, but I'm not going to go out and get me another one. People have had good rides on rounds, on Swift 5 cells, on Tempos, etc...
We're gambling with our lives...if someone has a good reserve, by all means, keep it. But, just because you get lucky with one, doesn't change your odds of getting another good one. It's like completely seperate rolls of the dice...hitting a number on the first roll has no effect on the second roll, and so on.
People are going to jump what they want to jump, but I will never understand why someone would settle for any less than the best when talking about their last chance to live.
Just some more of my 2 cents.
Steve

[cloud9 0]

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People are going to jump what they want to jump, but I will never understand why someone would settle for any less than the best when talking about their last chance to live.

Well, Steve the problem is no one has ever determined what the best is. If someone would take all the reserves put them through an independent test that would come close. But then again by your own words.

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just because you get lucky with one, doesn't change your odds of getting another good one.

Which I agree witth so even an independent test might not show who really makes the best. All the manufactures think they have the best. If you talk with 10 different riggers from 10 different states you will most definetly get different answers. So how do you determine what the best is?

[Jimbo 0]

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So how do you determine what the best is?

A really expensive test. Get about 10 of each size reserve from each manufacturer and put them each through one hell of a stress test - starting with the requirements dictated by the TSO that they are certified under. Of course, this would all be done by an independent lab, preferrably one that has no affiliation with skydiving and just enough knowledge of skydiving to understand how a reserve is supposed to open and perform. That's a good beginning, but I doubt anyone has the money to sponsor something like that.
-
Jim
Help with cancer research here.

[SBS 0]

This is exactly what would need to be done for a scientific answer to the question. Like you said, though, it's probably not going to happen.
So how do we determine what is the best? Go with the data that we have. The facts that I use are:
It is a known fact that Ravens have a tennancy to stall on landing, open hard, and have a built in right hand turn.
It is a known fact that PISA has a tennancy of building things inconsistantly, and that the Tempos are not as reinforced as other reserves. I have also heard horror stories from some very knowledgable, experienced skydivers.
I do not have any negative information regarding PD reserves. That is not to say that it is not out there, so by all means, if anyone has anything negative to say about PD reserves, please share. What I do know is that they have a reputation for opening smoother, flying straight, and flaring better.
My point with not being able to use one to judge the next one is that you have to look at the big picture. You have to look at the overall reputation of a canopy, not just your experiences with one or two jumps on one canopy. Just like you can get canopies with flukes that are bad, you can also get canopies that have flukes that are good.
Based on my personal experiences, feedback from skydivers (novices to professionals), and feedback from some very knowledgable people in the industry, I have to say that I consider the PD reserves to be the strongest, best flying, safest reserves on the market. That is not to say that you can not get a good Raven, Swift, Tempo, etc., but I won't have anything other than a PD reserve in my container.
Blue Ones,
Steve

[mnischalke 0]

Everyone says demo the reserve you plan to jump.
Well, you're rolling the dice with a reserve--as was said earlier in the thread and I hate the thought of--right?
Why can't I take MY reserve, attach it to a set of risers and a PC (or jury rig a freebag with a ripcord container) and try it out as a main once before I stuff it back into the reserve container, never to see it again until I really NEED it???
Is this possible or should I really try to keep the jump #s on a reserve down for resale value (tongue is in my cheek)?
peace
mike
Black then white are all I see, in my infancy...

[SBS 0]

As far as I am aware, you are allowed to do that.
You would have to hook it up with your d-bag as a freebag, since some don't have a main attachment point, and you would do a hop and pop, but I think it would be well worth it. As far as the value, I consider the knowlege that your last chance to live is of good quality to out-weigh the slight drop in monetary value.
Steve

[Kris 0]

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It is a known fact that PISA has a tennancy of building things inconsistantly, and that the Tempos are not as reinforced as other reserves. I have also heard horror stories from some very knowledgable, experienced skydivers.

Hmm, my new Tempo has spanwise reinforcement just like PD does. All Tempo reserves built in the last few months are reinforced like this. That and the fact that I can have 210sq ft of Tempo reserve in the same space that PD can only fit 160 was one hell of a selling point.
Kris

[billvon 2,400]

>I'm wondering if the wing loading was a factor.
All dash-M reserve sizes have the same line attach reinforcement and same number of line attach points. If the failure was due to insufficient reinforcement at the line attach, size shouldn't matter.
-bill von

[SBS 0]

Actually, you can get about a 176 in the same space as a Tempo 210. Are you aware that they use 2 different methods of measuring, so that you are not, in fact, getting an additional 34 square feet? I don't know exactly what the numbers are, but I would say that you are getting maybe half that, so 17 square feet. Again, maybe a little more or a little less. Now, question is, would you rather have a slightly smaller reserve that opens and lands well, or a little bit extra material that may or may not respond to toggle input, open hard, and be as well built?
Oh, and could you please tell me why it is that a canopy that is smaller would fit into the same space as a larger one? My answer is that there is more to the canopy, as in reinforcement. There is a reason that the smallest PD reserves made are placarded at well over a couple hundred pounds...they are made tough.
I still stick to what I said before...I have yet to hear a horror story about a PD reserve.
Steve

[Jimbo 0]

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There is a reason that the smallest PD reserves made are placarded at well over a couple hundred pounds...they are made tough.

TSO-C23d. Any canopy, no matter how small, certified under TSO-C23d had better support at least 220 lbs. More reserves are beginning to seek this certification.
Help with cancer research here.

[SBS 0]

I know that the 106/113 are 220, but the 126 and up are 254 lbs.
Can't tell what the ravens are placarded at on their site. Anyone know exactly?
Steve

[riggerrob 558]

comments to SBS' comments.
This is the first I have heard of inconsistent quality from PISA.
But what would I know? I have only been rigging for 18 years!
Secondly, I have heard of qc problems from PD. At the last PIA Symposium, Shlomo Pearl told us a couple of PD reserves he found with the wrong line sets. (PD126R lines on a PD143R or something like that.) Call Shlomo for the details.
As for the question of who makes the best reserves, I will be happy to keep my Amigo. It saved a friend's life once and that is proof enough for me!
And a giant raspberry to the rest of you!!!!!!!!!

[fred 0]

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I still stick to what I said before...I have yet to hear a horror story about a PD reserve.

Frankly, as an inexperienced skydiver, this means a lot to me. Considering how apt people are to complain about something, the fact that PD reserves don't have a bad review says, (A) they suck and anybody with a PD reserve bounces, or (B) they do what they're supposed to.
When I go to buy my next main, I'm going to be very concerned about soft openings, performance, and la-de-da... but what I want from a reserve is one thing: OPEN. If it does that, and it slams me into the ground and breaks some bones, it's still better than it not coming out, yes?

[Kris 0]

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Actually, you can get about a 176 in the same space as a Tempo 210. Are you aware that they use 2 different methods of measuring, so that you are not, in fact, getting an additional 34 square feet? I don't know exactly what the numbers are, but I would say that you are getting maybe half that, so 17 square feet. Again, maybe a little more or a little less. Now, question is, would you rather have a slightly smaller reserve that opens and lands well, or a little bit extra material that may or may not respond to toggle input, open hard, and be as well built?

Actually, no, the PD-176R will not fit in my rig along with my CYPRES. I can have one, or the other, but not both. I have tried. The Tempo-210 and my CYPRES fit just fine. So I am not getting 34 more square feet, I am getting about 50 as compared to the PD-160 that will fit in my Mirage.
Do I want a smaller reserve? Umm, NO! I trust my Tempo because I have seen one loaded at 1.6+ open & land great and it is certified under the same TSO that PD has to certify to.
While I understand that you push PD products as part of your job, don't get caught up in the marketing. Do I have anything against PD? Nope, I think they make a great product, I love my Stiletto and a PD-176R in a staff rig saved my ass a couple of months back. You're a Microsoft guy, I am a Linux guy. Those who have the best marketing win, but they don't always have the best product for the situation.
As for opening hard, the sub-terminal opening I had on a PD-176 bruised the shit out of me. A hard opening can happen on any canopy. That's the roll of the probability dice. And I would like to know where you have heard that a Tempo will not respond to toggle input. Pulling down all that fabric on the back edge of the canopy has to create drag which will cause one side of the wing to fly faster than the other, causing a turn as long as the canopy is not in some type of malfunction mode. Physics.
I'll take that extra square footage any day because I never know when I may have to sink that reserve into a tight spot or I may have some injury that negates or limits my use of my control inputs.

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Oh, and could you please tell me why it is that a canopy that is smaller would fit into the same space as a larger one? My answer is that there is more to the canopy, as in reinforcement. There is a reason that the smallest PD reserves made are placarded at well over a couple hundred pounds...they are made tough.

Sorry, you lose this argument. I have one of the new Tempo's and I have compared it to a PD. My Tempo is very solidly reinforced and has spanwise reinforcement just like PD. What you did not take into account is that different wings will have different pack volumes. This can be caused by how the panels are cut, which batch of fabric was used and even the dye in the fabric can take up some space. Granted, that doesn't account for all of it but it is a significant amount.
Even two canopies of the exact same type and size can have radically different pack volumes. No two are the same...
Just because I didn't pay an extra $300 for a PD product does not mean that mine is inferior. Bottom line, I am comfortable with my Tempo, it suits my peace of mind and that is the most important concern.
If one of my students asks me for a recommendation on gear, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend PISA or PD. I will tell them to look up the facts on both, then take a look at their rig to see what will fit and then we'll find out which the student prefers in regards to their unique situation.
Kris

[sangiro 4]

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If your going to be a moderator on these boards mabey you could stick with moderating.

If she's going to be a moderator on these boards she can stick it to whomever she wants!
Safe swoops
Sangiro

[RemiAndKaren 0]

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I have seen some Raven landings this year (2 by a jumper with 15000 skydives and 75 reserve rides) and everyone of them was pounded in

this 780 jump jumper landed his Raven 181 without any problem on a no wind day after a 14,000 foot ride this summer. I am by no means comparing my level with his, but I did not have any issue with the landing at all.
Remi
Muff 914

[riggerrob 558]

Most of the confusion over reserve inflated size versus pack volume is caused by the fact that every manufacturer uses a different measuring method. Many of these measuring methods are more relevant to marketeers than packers.
Back in the 1980s, a Para-Flite engineer wrote a standard for measuring parachutes, but as near as I can figure, only Para-Flite and PISA still use that method.
Performance Deisgns measuring method consistently "under quotes" canopy sizes. For example: the canopy that PD advertises as a PD113R measures about 125 square feet on the PIA system.
Precision on the other hand "overquotes" canopy sizes. For example: what Precision calls a Raven 282 is closer to 264 on the PIA scale.
Pack volume measurements are equally confusing. Part of the problem is that many volume measurements are taken in humid states like Florida. When the same canopy is repacked in a dry state like Arizona, it fluffs up 10% to 20% larger and the measurements taken in Florida become useless!
This is why smart container manufacturers (like Rigging Innovations) ignore any volume number published by any canopy manufacturer.
I have been rigging for 18 years now, but the more numbers I see, the more confused I get.

[billvon 2,400]

>This is the first I have heard of inconsistent quality from PISA.
>But what would I know? I have only been rigging for 18 years!
A while back I talked to BR and they related a story of a Tempo missing a set of crossports. They repaired it with PISA patterns.
>As for the question of who makes the best reserves, I will be happy to keep my ]
>Amigo. It saved a friend's life once and that is proof enough for me!
Agree with you on the Amigo. I saw some of the testing and was very impressed.
-bill von

[PhreeZone 15]

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So I am not getting 34 more square feet, I am getting about 50 as compared to the PD-160 that will fit in my Mirage.

Actually if you measure the PD the same way that Pisa uses you only are getting about 35 feet more. PD and Pisa use 2 different methods to get thier sizes. A PD 160 is more like a Tempo 170-175 then anything else. By the same token if you measure the Tempo with PD's method you only have something the size of a PD 190-195.
Pisa's Tempo canopys pack smaller due to the method that the reinforcement tape is attached. PD double layers most of thier tape and it seems does it without caring how it affects pack volume. Pisa on the other hand seemed to be more selective in the placement of thier tape and only use it in places that they deemed it needed unlike PD that does it everywhere.
As for the reserve opening speeds, a lot is determined by the rigger packing it. If the rigger has the slider down just a fraction of an inch it could open hard. By the same token just how tightly the folds are and the placement of the slider have a lot to do with openings on reserves.
I've been studying under a master rigger that was just briefed on a way to make the openings a little slower so that if a freeflier has'nt slowed down yet it won't kill them. Once I learn the technique, I'll pass it on.
I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

[prost 0]

You have been studing did you say. how do I get that job?

[RTB 0]

"...a way to make the openings a little slower so that if a freeflier has'nt slowed down yet it won't kill them."
Interesting, does this mean that you would pack differently for someone who mainly does RW?
René

[riggerrob 558]

The difference in pack volumes between PD and Tempo reserves has narrowed since Tempo introduced spanwise reinforcing tapes last year.

[Jimbo 0]

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Interesting, does this mean that you would pack differently for someone who mainly does RW?

I think it means that if you get slammed under your reserve that you can ask your rigger to slow it down a little during the repack. Alternatively, if your reserve take a little longer than your comfortable with you could ask your rigger to speed things up a bit. Obviously, this just demonstrates that different packing technique will yield different openings.
I can't see any reason to pack differently for different jumpers. The main concern is to get the thing out and open.
-
Jim

[rmcvey 0]

I use a PD126 R and I weigh maybe 150lbs with gear.
My reserve was made in 1997 (June I think).
Does my reserve meet the TSO-C23d??? and if not is there any other differences between mine and the PD reserves made today?
Also what is I-beam construction?
Rob

[billvon 2,400]

>I'd be hard pressed to recommend a Raven to anyone who can't take a hard opening . . .
Soft opening reserves can be just as bad, judging by the number of people who died when they cut away too low and their reserve did not inflate in time. We had a fatality at Brown about five years ago when someone hit the ground with their reserve just starting to open. A quarter of a second faster opening may have made the difference between being badly broken and being dead.
There's no doubt that, in the future, we will desire slower opening reserves, just as we started to ask for slower-opening mains about ten years ago. For one thing, they will more readily survive a superterminal reserve opening, which we're seeing more and more with freeflyers. However, we have to keep in mind that there will be people that these new reserves will _not_ save that the older fast-opening reserves might have.
-bill von