Tandem Instructor Requirements (by request)

[robinheid 0]

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A Tandem Instructor Candidate has to show up for a weekend, take an open book written test, brief someone (barely) on a Cat D skydive, and do a handful of jumps with someone who has to make a living by passing people.

C'mon, DP, lighten up. What could possibly go wrong?

Seriously, though, your "seasoning" comment a few posts up is right on. If you look at the military, "time in service" and "time in grade" are significant elements of the rank structure -- to the point that they sometimes count more than actual rank.

You learn things by being around any activity for an extended time simply because
you are, uhhh, around the activity for an extended time.

44

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[mx19 0]

750 odd jumps total and 550ish tandem camera jumps

[tkhayes 129]

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I did 700 jumps at a seasonal cessna dropzone in one summer last year. Just sayin...

And I ran a weekend Cessna dropzone for years. The most I ever managed jumping hard every day was 350 in a year. If the club did 100 tandems in a year, that was considered good. In total, the club did 4000 jumps each year.

It was even difficult for the AFF and IAD instructors/coaches to get the minimums to stay current by the rules we had then.

To impose 1000 jump 'whatevers' on dropzones such as these would be the end of them. We did just fine. We had malfunctions, we had issues, we had injuries and no one got killed.

In fact we turned out a lot of good skydivers and a lot of fun.

The argument to raise jump requirements based on a single fatality, whatever those requirements might be, is flawed.

[Skyper 0]

here are some of the requirements for becoming a TM in the Netherlands:

1. at least 1000 free fall jumps
2. at least 3 years in sport
3. at least 1 EP
4. after obtaining TM-rating: at least 75 free fall jumps (including at least 35 tandem jumps) per year.

I'd like to hear a reason for setting the minimum number of jumps to 1000 instead to USPA's 500.

[wmw999 2,129]

Maybe the deal is that more attention should be paid by individual DZs to the personnel they hire.

At a small DZ (particularly one with the standard-issue grizzled DZO who's seen it all), a less-experienced TM who has plenty of time to be with each student is great. His or her enthusiasm will be infectious, and the slightly lesser currency is made up for the greater amount of itme they spend with students.

At a larger commercial DZ, well, TM's often run from student to student, and do most of their working with them on the bench waiting for the plane, and in the plane. You'd want more experience there, just as the pilot at a busy multi-plane DZ probably needs more than the minimum number of commercial and/or multi-engine hours, while the single-Cessna DZ pilot really doesn't.

Just a thought. Of course, DZs will want to hire as many less-expensive TMs as they can; it's human nature to be profit-oriented.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Ron 7]

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It's a moot point as the two situations are not congruent.

A Sport Pilot CFI, or Commercial Balloon pilot had to train over weeks and weeks, invest many tens to hundreds of hours of study, pass a written knowledge test, an oral knowledge test, and a practical skills test all administered by a(n) individual(s) who had no fiduciary interest in whether the applicant passed or failed.

A Tandem Instructor Candidate has to show up for a weekend, take an open book written test, brief someone (barely) on a Cat D skydive, and do a handful of jumps with someone who has to make a living by passing people.

Then you change 'A', not require 'B'.

If you don't like what you view as limited training, then you increase the training, not require a medical.

The fact is the FAA has set a precedent and we just ignore it.

But just for fun, back to your non congruent point:

To be a commercial ballon pilot:

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Have at least 35 hours as a pilot, including 20 hours in balloons, which must include the following: (I'll bet a guy with 500 jumps has spent more than 35 hours on a DZ participating in skydiving... Let's see, 500 jumps = to about 8 hrs freefall and if we assume 3 min each jump under canopy that adds ~24 hours... And this is not including flight time).
10 flights in balloons (500 jumps)
10 hours of flight training that includes at least 10 flights with an instructor on the Commercial Pilot areas of operation (what is it, 5 jumps in the class and then another 5 with an experienced person then 20 provisional jumps?)
Two flights as pilot in command
One controlled ascent to 3000 feet above the takeoff point
2 flights of 1 hour each within 60 days prior to taking the practical test
2 solo flights
Pass the written FAA Knowledge Test (or hold a Commercial Pilot Certificate for any powered aircraft).
Pass the Practical Knowledge Test (oral and flight) given by a designated FAA Flight Examiner or FAA Inspector.

And as for your claim about the people that pass them having a financial incentive... You know they get paid even if a person fails right?

But what would you propose? We get the FAA involved? I'd be against that, but would be interested in your solution. And do you see the same problem with AFF and coach?

But back to MY point:
Balloonists don't need a medical
Sport pilot instructors don't need a medical
Hangglider tandem instructors don't need a medical
Paragliding tandem instructors don't need a medical

It makes little sense to make skydiving TI's do it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[diablopilot 2]

So far you've come up with a bunch of non comparative comparisons, but I have not seen a solid reason to remove a requirement that has been in place since the inventors of Tandem skydiving put it there more than 20 years ago.

How is having the medical requirement in place hurting tandem skydiving?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[fcajump 153]

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Here is what I would have:

1. One year between coach and TI or AFFI
2. 500 jumps.
3. 3 years in the sport from license.
4. Cutaway
5. Ditch the 3rd class medical. 7 years of 'sport pilot' has shown that not ONE accident could be attributed to a medical issue. In fact, the EAA and AOPA have petitioned the FAA to allow planes

I guess when its all said and done, I would agree with this list.

The only concern with #4 is one tandem candidate that I knew that happened to have a cutaway (his first) the on the last load of the weekend, the day before going to the TI course and a rig that happened to need a repack the next week... And for his first "emergency" he was much more interested in talking about the feeling of the release and reserve flight... never did say much about what was wrong with his main...

So, maybe I would add one requirement that is a bit hard to quantify (much less enforce)... proven good mature judgement.

Just sayin'...
JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[stratostar 5]

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How is having the medical requirement in place hurting tandem skydiving?

It's not hurting "tandem skydiving" it is how ever hurting some instructors for various reasons, some are stupid medical issues, like a med once taken, others it might be the additional fees to pay out.

I happen to agree with Ron on this, it is totally stupid to keep this requirement for us to hold a medical for one, but most of all forcing a class 3 FAA medical is even more stupid when there are other less expensive medicals out there. My class 3 is due in May, my DOT medical is still valid for another year.... The class 3 is min: 100 bucks and an hour drive away, unless I want to pay 140.00 bucks. The DOT medical is 40.00 to renew.

I would like to not pay anything more for any medical, it's not required by the FAA for me to have one, the enjoyment of rating ownership, use and maintaining them is starting to out weight the usefulness of the ratings.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Ron 7]

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So far you've come up with a bunch of non comparative comparisons

A hang glider TANDEM INSTRUCTOR is 'non-comparative'?
A paragliding TANDEM INSTRUCTOR is 'non-comparative'?

Really????

And pointing out that Balloon Commercial pilots and light sport flight instructors is 'non-comparative'?

How EXACTLY is any of that non-comparative?

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How is having the medical requirement in place hurting tandem skydiving?

I know plenty of damn good instructors that can't do tandems because of some stupid rule like being color blind. A buddy was turned down because he needed to provide the serial number of the stint put in one of his veins 10 years ago and a surgical diagram showing its placement.... This Dr has long since retired and the FAA gave him THREE DAYS to get that information before he was rejected.

I personally may quit doing them since the way the rules are written I could risk never being able to fly my plane again if I fail a medical.... Just not worth it.

The FAA just did a SEVEN year study on light sport pilots (more of those than tandem instructors in the US) and found NOT A SINGLE CASE where a medical issue that could have been caught by a medical would have had ANY influence on ANY accident that occurred.

Now, show me where having an FAA 3rd class medical has done any good.

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a requirement that has been in place since the inventors of Tandem skydiving put it there more than 20 years ago.

Tandems 20 years ago were also under a special exemption.... Should we go back to that since it was in place 20 years ago?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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it's not required by the FAA for me to have one

And that's the kicker.... Diablo is trying to say it makes tandems 'safer'... I'd like to see how. And if having a class III FAA medical makes tandems safer, then requiring a class III FAA medical for EVERY jumper wold surely make skydiving safer right?

So Diablo... You going to request that EVERY jumper have to get a third class medical to make skydiving safer?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[normiss 622]

How does point 5 address drug use?
Legal or illegal for that matter.

[TheCaptain 2]

My last flight physical included a urine test (for what I did not ask), vision test and color blind test.

Kirk
He's dead Jim

[dragon2 0]

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I'd like to hear a reason for setting the minimum number of jumps to 1000 instead to USPA's 500.

We used to have the minimum set at 500. We had a fair number of incidents involving new TMs. We changed the minimum to 1000 jumps. We now have very few incidents involving new TMs.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[normiss 622]

Kidney function.

Snipped from the FAA guidelines for the Class III:

"perform urine testing for albumin and glucose"

[billvon 2,406]

>And if having a class III FAA medical makes tandems safer, then requiring
>a class III FAA medical for EVERY jumper wold surely make skydiving safer
>right?

Yes. But while you have a right to take substantial risks with your own life, you do not have the right to take substantial risks with a paying customer. Which is why it's harder to get an AFF rating than an A license.

[Ron 7]

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>And if having a class III FAA medical makes tandems safer, then requiring
>a class III FAA medical for EVERY jumper wold surely make skydiving safer
>right?

Yes. But while you have a right to take substantial risks with your own life, you do not have the right to take substantial risks with a paying customer.

But since a medical is not required for:
Commercial Balloon flights
Sport pilot Instructors
Handgliding Tandem Instructors
Paragliding Tandem Instructors

And they all take paying passengers.

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Which is why it's harder to get an AFF rating than an A license.

And yet an AFF rating has no medical requirement.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[diablopilot 2]

Do you understand the moment there is a actionable incident after the requirement for a 3rd class is revoked the lawyers are going to be so far up the ass of whichever organization abolishes the requirement that they will need flashlights and caving gear?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Ron 7]

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Do you understand the moment there is a actionable incident after the requirement for a 3rd class is revoked the lawyers are going to be so far up the ass of whichever organization abolishes the requirement that they will need flashlights and caving gear?

Got it, you have nothing but to play but the fear card. The fact is the FAA does not require it.

I am still waiting for you to answer the questions I asked.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Skyper 0]

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I'd like to hear a reason for setting the minimum number of jumps to 1000 instead to USPA's 500.

We used to have the minimum set at 500. We had a fair number of incidents involving new TMs. We changed the minimum to 1000 jumps. We now have very few incidents involving new TMs.

ty Dragon.

[jimjumper 25]

I too think that the Class 3 requirement is foolish and was going to post about the same points you have but your doing a great job without me.
+1!

[stratostar 5]

Well I hope all you guys bitching about the stupid fucking class 3 medical requirement, have been or are planing to voice your concerns and thoughts to the full USPA BOD before the next meeting, because maybe we can get a change or something like the DOT medical cards approved, speak up or shut up already.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[billvon 2,406]

>And yet an AFF rating has no medical requirement.

True. And in a program where a tandem student is trained to the level of an AFF student, and has the same level of control (toggle extensions, chicken handles etc) then I'd agree that you would not need a medical to do tandems.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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>Do you really think that too many people get spotting experience if the
>jump plane in use is a Caravan or Otter or bigger?

Not sure what you are asking. Are you asking whether people get experience spotting if a DZ uses Caravans and Otters? I think at some DZ's yes, at some DZ's no. Which is why someone who goes to many different DZ's will be more likely to have spotting experience than someone who goes to just one.

Nowadays I actually do a fair amount of spotting out of the Perris Otter, since I am often doing video for the more experienced teams, and they tend to get out at 10,500 - which means that I'm the first one out the door. 95% of the time it just means checking the spot and looking for traffic. The remaining 5% of the time it means a 10 second delay for a way too short spot or a talk with manifest after I land to adjust the spot a little.

That is what I meant. Most of us don't have a chance to spot with bigger planes, specially jumping as guest on some DZ.

[RickH 0]

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***I agree except for point 5. The problem is drug use and a penalty for it. [/
The Class 3 Phyisical requirement in my opinion is simply over the top...not sure why UPT and USPA are currently still requiring this, we are no longer "experimental test jumpers", we are highly qualified instructors who have earned our ratings. We as AFF Instructors aren't required a Class3, and in my experience, I have had to save numerous students for multiple reasons.
The "time in sport", is certainly a concern. But, I agree with others in the term "quality" above "quantity". I have trained numerous individuals with 1000's of jumps under their belt, and were horrible "candidates", Attitude and the willingness to learn is a huge factor. Some are great skydivers, but can't teach, therefore are horrible instructors. Some are solid skydivers and are great teachers..jump numbers are not a factor in attitude.It starts with the Coach course, the question should be, " Are you a candidate to teach".quote]

As for the "Drug use" statement..the urine that you have to submit to your flight surgeon is not an effort to test for a schedule 3 narcotic or any other "social drug", Cannabis (THC)..etc.

Hangglider tandem instructors don't need a class III
Ballon pilots don't need a medical.
Sport pilot instructors don't need a medical.

So basically it is an added expense that limits a good number of otherwise quality instructors for no real reason and that has no equal in any other aviation equivalent

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