How do you teach Emergancy Procedures (Cutting Away)

[TheRanchPROshop 0]

As and instructor, rigger and S&TA, I have seen and experienced problems with the first method and have gone to the second method (The way I was originally taught, here at The Ranch, NY)

The first method simply opens yourself up to the possibilities of deploying your reserve before cutting away. For those of you about to say, "You got to be an idiot to do that" My response is there are a lot of "Idiots" out there, trust me.

I spoke to Jim Crouch at USPA and asked him their view on this and he said it is up to the DZ and instructors how to teach emergency procedures. So, that conversation prompted this post.

What it comes down to, is that I believe the "Two hands on each handle" method is the way it should be taught for the safety factor.

If there is anyone out there that thinks the "One hand per handle" method is better, your WRONG. There is nothing that you could say that would change the fact that, that method is better.

Anyway I hope this saves lives, cause ultimately that's why I'm posting this.

BSBD!

Kamuran "Sonic" Bayrasli
The Ranch PROshop
Buy Baby Buy!

[ufk22 32]

If there is anyone out there that thinks the "One hand per handle" method is better, your WRONG. There is nothing that you could say that would change the fact that, that method is better.

Quote

So, if you absolutely KNOW the right answer, why the poll and the thread??????????
Forgive me for not voting.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

• Quote

[TheRanchPROshop 0]

I'm curious how many instructors are teaching the inferior method. I want to write an article for Parachutist about this, and wanted to hear some opinions and see some numbers. Maybe eventually purpose to USPA, to set a proper standard.

Saving lives one at a time.

Kamuran "Sonic" Bayrasli
The Ranch PROshop
Buy Baby Buy!

[DocPop 1]

Quote

If there is anyone out there that thinks the "One hand per handle" method is better, your WRONG.

There are very few absolutes in our sport.

What about the person who jumps without an RSL and who cuts away with the "two-hand method" only to find that they cannot find the reserve handle due to the release of the main?

Posts along the lines of "It's my way or the highway" are very rarely likely to be correct in all circumstances, and show a degree of arrogance and stifle discussion.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[TheRanchPROshop 0]

You're right that are only a few absolutes in this sport and I you're also right that I am arrogant. I can only let my years of experience speak for myself.

"What about the person who jumps without an RSL and who cuts away with the "two-hand method" only to find that they cannot find the reserve handle due to the release of the main?"

Hence, "Both hands on cutaway. Look locate reserve. Pull cutaway. Then both hands on reserve, pull reserve."

And if they can't find their reserve before they hit the ground, then I call that "Natural Selection". And if you want to crucify me for that statement, start another thread.

But, my statement to most people is "I bet your life, that you'll find and pull that handle before you hit the ground" And they usually agree.

Kamuran "Sonic" Bayrasli
The Ranch PROshop
Buy Baby Buy!

[pilotdave 0]

There are pros and cons to everything. I learned one hand per handle before my first jump, then two hands per handle before my second jump (different DZ). I would only teach two hands per handle though for the reasons you mentioned.

I recently heard from another instructor about a guy that got recurrent after 20+ years... They asked him to demonstrate his emergency procedures. He used one hand per handle... left hand on cutaway and right hand on reserve... arms crossed. There's no way I would have let that continue, but apparently he did it well and they left him alone. He ended up having to pull his reserve soon after that because he couldn't find his main. Guess it worked ok for him. But just because something works doesn't make it a good idea.

So are you only talking about which method gets taught to students, or do you think all skydivers should use two hands per handle? Which way do you practice yourself? Personally I choose two hands per handle for myself due to the number of horror stories I've heard about hard cutaways.

Dave

[Heatmiser 0]

Quote

I'm curious how many instructors are teaching the inferior method. I want to write an article for Parachutist about this, and wanted to hear some opinions and see some numbers. Maybe eventually purpose to USPA, to set a proper standard.

Saving lives one at a time.

If you're gonna write an article about it, how bout telling us why you think it's an inferior method. Just stating your opinion regardless of how much experience you have does nothing to educate.

ETA: I just caught that you said it prevents deploying your reserve before you cutaway. What other benefits are there to the two hand method? Obviously one drawback is losing sight of the reserve handle. What data do you have to support that one is more likely to have an out of sequence cutaway than a no pull as a result of losing the reserve handle?

What you say is reflective of your knowledge...HOW ya say it is reflective of your experience. Airtwardo

Someone's going to be spanked! Hopefully, it will be me. Skymama

[burtonjm 0]

I'n no TI, but I was under the impression that on a tandem cutaway, it's one hand on each handle. That whole thing with there being a student attached across your chest kinda limits the ability to get both hands on one handle.

This shit, right here, is OK

[TheRanchPROshop 0]

As far as my personal experience; 10+ years ago in Eloy I was jumping my Velo 103 (2.5ish WL) in a Javelin. Back then the Javelin handles were very flat. Anyway, had a spinner and using the one hand per handle method, peeled my cutaway and started to pull, as I had also started to peel my reserve, WHEN I could barely pull the handle due to the hard spin. I then had to get both hands on my cutaway to finish pulling it all the way and clearing my cables. When I went back to the reserve handle that was already peeled, it was a little harder to find. I swore right then and there that I was going back to the method I was taught. Two hands on each handle.

As far as things I've seen; As the owner of the PROshop and loft at The Ranch, when people come in to have a repack I usually let them pull their handles. Before they actually 'pull' their handles I have them 'motion' through their emergency procedures. I can't even tell you how many do it wrong or don't pull their cutaway handle all the way before they pull their reserve. TOO many.

Kamuran "Sonic" Bayrasli
The Ranch PROshop
Buy Baby Buy!

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

They asked him to demonstrate his emergency procedures. He used one hand per handle... left hand on cutaway and right hand on reserve... arms crossed. There's no way I would have let that continue, but apparently he did it well and they left him alone.

That's the way I do it. You get more pull force that way. You just have to remember to put the left arm over top of the right arm, since it's getting pulled first. And this way there's no fumbling for the reserve handle once you cut-away - you've already got it in your hand.

[mark 104]

Here's a better method: peel-pull, feel the drop, peel-pull.

The biggest drawback to two-hands-per-handle is that it takes a long time to learn the sequence:
_ look red
_ grab red
_ look silver
_ pull red
_ grab silver
_ pull silver

Looking here and pulling there is not something that comes naturally -- we would all rather look at the thing we are pulling. Two-hands-per-handle runs counter to our ingrained habits, and under stress we tend to revert to original habits.

Under stress, recall of sequence is one of the first thought processes to go.

Time spent learning the sequence is time not spent learning pull technique. Left hand assisting the cutaway is not much help if the jumper is trying to shear the velcro apart -- velcro is very strong in shear, and the required left-hand motion is quite weak. A two-hand grip actually makes it harder to peel the velcro. I have personal knowledge of a near-death experience illustrating exactly this problem.

Psychologically and physiologically, one-hand-per-handle is the way to go.

Mark

[pchapman 262]

Quote

If there is anyone out there that thinks the "One hand per handle" method is better, your WRONG. There is nothing that you could say that would change the fact that, that method is better.

Gee, that's going to help convince people, just telling them they are dead wrong. Did some specific incident piss you off, Sonic? With all your jumps but only 12 posts, it doesn't sound like you are on dz.com a lot just to stir up shit.


How about a third option then, one that I've never heard suggested? I know it's crazy talk, but it fits the thread and the tone of the first post:

One hand is on the cutaway handle, one hand is extended. Pull one handle with one hand, then pull the second with the other hand.


This allows for using one or both arms for stability or to regain stability for the reserve pull.

This third option, like for Sonic's preferred method of two hands on one handle, does get away from the possibility of inadvertently pulling the 2nd handle if the first doesn't clear on the first attempt.

It also is in agreement with that method, in the belief that it isn't essential to pull the reserve the very moment the main is chopped. A second's delay is acceptable. (Yet if altitude really is tight, then one can always revert to one hand on each handle method.)

The argument for having a hand on each handle at the start is to be ready to pull the reserve more quickly right after the cutaway, either to avoid allowing time to start an unstable tumble, or to make sure the handle can better be found, what with harness shifting etc -- especially for newbies in the sport.

To what degree freefall stability affects reserve opening, and what freefall stability should be as time progresses from a chop, that gets into all those old RSL debates. It is tough for any instructor though, to advocate to any newbie, to take a little time to get stable before pulling the reserve!

The two hands on one handle method doesn't however insist on any particular level of stability before pulling the reserve, so arguments about stability have to keep that in mind. The method does require say a second between handle pulls though.
This is also true for the third option of one hand per handle sequentially.

One issue with both hands on one handle: Does it imply that one should always toss the cutaway handle away? It's hard to get both hands on the second handle if there's a cutaway handle in one hand. You might as well just use one hand for the reserve then.

The third option of one hand on each handle sequentially, is based on the idea (right or wrong) that usually, one hand is enough to pull a handle, that going to two hands is only a backup plan -- just like when using the old one hand on each handle method.

It may be marginally faster to pull a handle with one hand instead of setting up to pull it with both hands. However, one might argue that if a handle is hard to find, with a distorted harness or whatever, using two hands may help find and get the handle in hand faster. Still, one may choose to relegate that to a backup plan only.

So in favour of the third option, if one already accepts that the reserve pull doesn't have to be a split second after the cutaway, then one might as well have arms more free for stability after the cutaway, to reduce time lost until the reserve is pulled. That is as long as one believes that overall, it is acceptable to make one's first pull on the cutaway handle or reserve handle with one hand.

Edit: P.S.: +1 to mark
Nice thoughts on the specifics of teaching particular techniques.

[NickDG 23]

I never knew anyone that used the first method when teaching students. It should always be the second method, case closed.

However for experienced jumpers it's their call.

However, using the first method almost bit me in the ass after a really bad spinner on my Stiletto. I grabbed right and left, peeled the Velcro on the cutaway pud, and removed the reserve ripcord from its keeper pocket. Then found out I couldn't budge the cutaway handle.

The twists had traveled down into the risers, in fact I was starting to feel the yoke of the container tightening around my neck.

I dropped the reserve handle (which now became a floater) and grabbed the cutaway pud with both hands (what I should have done in the first place.) And I still couldn't pull it. I was pulling straight down and straining as much as I could and I just couldn't budge it.

I was just a few seconds away from giving up on the cutaway altogether and just going for the reserve as I was still high enough to work on a wrap if it all went wrong, but when I glanced over to my left I couldn't see the reserve ripcord anywhere. But I figured it was up under my arm somewhere.

By this time I felt like the rig itself was trying to strangle me. Later on the ground the thought occurred to me that some of the early Stiletto spin fatalities, where the deceased never did anything except spin in, may have been caused by their being choked into unconscious. One of my friends Bruce Geikie purchased a Stiletto when they first came out. Bruce was a very experienced skydiver, Navy test, jumper, the whole nine yards, and on his third or fourth jump on it he just spun into the ground apparently doing nothing at all.

We kind of chalked it up, at the time, to the fact nobody needed to cutaway line twists and he simply ran out of time trying to kick out the twists. You'll understand what I'm saying if you jumped prior to there being elliptical canopies.

But I wasn't thinking about any of that at the moment. All I knew is I had to make this skydive stop and I needed to make it stop right now. I tried one more time with the cutaway handle pulling with all my might. (What I didn't realize is I was actually moving the cables a little bit every time I tried pulling.) And finally it came out and I was back in freefall.

I was on my back now and just decided to stay there. I wasn't exactly sure how low I was but knew I was getting down there from the look of the horizon. I spread my arms and the reserve ripcord floated up right in front of me and that was the end of all that.

So anyway, yeah, the second method . . .

NickD

[wmw999 2,149]

Just because pictures help me, I put together a quick and dirty chart (emphasis on quick) with the consequences of the major failure modes and options.

It does not take weird situations into account, nor the percent chance of any given failure. I colored the blocks green for "most likely OK" yellow for "gotta be quick" and pink for "now you have a new problem to think about."

To me it makes it pretty clear that if someone has an RSL it's weighted pretty heavily in favor of two hands each. Yeah, you don't trust the RSL, but it's still a tool.

Note that like any chart, it's heavily dependent on definitions and nice clear boxes to categorize things. That's not real life, but at least it's a starting point.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[tetra316 0]

Quote

If there is anyone out there that thinks the "One hand per handle" method is better, your WRONG. There is nothing that you could say that would change the fact that, that method is better.

Well, if you can't convince USPA what makes you think you can convince everyone else?

While I do agree the two handed method is better for training students (to prevent out of sequence procedures when they are in a panic) I do not agree that the one handed method is wrong for experienced jumpers. Especially for those with highly loaded crossbraced. The two handed method can be more unstable and during a spining mal your harness can shift making it hard to find your reserve handle if you do not already have a hand on it. Of course in the case Nick mentioned the spinnning mal can also cause the risers to load up making a one handed cutaway difficult.

In the end, for experienced jumpers, there are pros and cons to both methods. Or do you not agree with that, for experienced jumpers?

[pchapman 262]

Quote

Before they actually 'pull' their handles I have them 'motion' through their emergency procedures. I can't even tell you how many do it wrong or don't pull their cutaway handle all the way before they pull their reserve. TOO many.

You get to collect some good data!

I just want to confirm: Are you sure they are taking it seriously enough, that they aren't just making sloppy motions because of that? Are you saying that even when they stand there, and pull both handles, they still mess it up often enough?

Can you break the problems down more?

For example, a straight pull across good velcro might result in 2 pull attempts.
Does that argue for both hands on the handle, or just a better technique with one hand?

Not pulling the cutaway all the way is of course sloppy, but in the actual stressful situation that might not happen. I don't think we get a lot of incidents with incomplete cutaways for the average jumper, where the reserve is fired into it before completing the cutaway.

I'm not disputing what you've seen; just interested in understanding more about it.

So you think that the one hand on each handle method could work, IF people were better trained to make sure the cutaway handle (& risers) cleared before pulling (or even dislodging) the reserve handle? Or do you think hard pulls on the cutaway handle are likely enough to warrant always reaching in with both hands?

We have to evaluate a lot of different likelihoods when debating these sorts of things...

[tdog 0]

Almost not wanting to post because of your attitude that you are perfect, but I will anyway.

A few months ago I was in a lecture by a rep from a pilot bailout rig manufacture to pilots.

He suggested both hands, always, on the one handle...

His primary reason. "If you break either arm, or dislocate either shoulder exiting the aircraft, you still have trained the other hand to do the work too."

This is another reason I like the both hands on each handle method.

[dgskydive 0]

Quote

You're right that are only a few absolutes in this sport and I you're also right that I am arrogant. I can only let my years of experience speak for myself.

I love you Sonic!!

I have had only one cutaway and used one hand on each handle, but that was back in 1994 or so. I had no problem what so ever doing that.

I can see were it cold go both ways though. I was never an AFF instructor, but did hold a S/L rating for a while. We always taught one hand per handle. UNLESS, it was a person that didnt have lot of arm strength. Then we really wanted them to use both hands on one handle at a time.

I guess I would teach newbies to use the one hand per handle method, only because I believe it is easier for them to look grap, look grap, pull, let it clear and then pull again.

I would be afraid that they would not be able to find the reserve handle once they cut away. If using an RSL might not be such an issue, if the rsl works correctly that is.

good topic you arrogant ass.

Dom

[dgskydive 0]

he is not talking about tandems, he is talking about students. Tandem procedures are different in a lot of ways from a regular sport jump. More handles and other things to worry about other then just cutting away and pulling the reserve.

Dom

[koppel 3]

Quote

And if they can't find their reserve before they hit the ground, then I call that "Natural Selection".

So basically what you are saying is that when using the One Hand per Handle method if something goes wrong that is just Natural Selection By your own words you are arrogant and sadly you are correct.

I am not aware of any Drop Zone here in Australia that actually teaches ab initio students to use two hands per handle though I am not familiar enough with the vagaries of ALL DZ's here to state for certain that it does not happen I am certain enough of the fact that if it is taught then it is by far the minority that teach this method.

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[skydiverkeith 1]

For me, it's like this.

Two hands on cutaway....pull

One hand on reserve...pull (while other hand holds cutaway pud)

The reason for two hands on cutaway is this...
In an emergency, my first priority is to get rid of the bad canopy. And in a perfect world, as soon as that happens the RSL starts reserve deployment.

The reason for only one hand on reserve is this...
First of all the reserve is very unlikely to ever be a hard pull, and I'm not wanting to drop the cutaway pud either.

I'm not worried about being able to locate the reserve pud because I have an RSL. If that fails, I WILL FIND IT. Even if for some reason I still can't get my reserve out, hopefully the CYPRES will do its job.

Blue skies,
Keith Medlock

[hookitt 0]

I honestly do not care how you teach. Just do it well and have a good attitude. Don't be PA removed by slotperfect and don't push your strong opinions on others in an arrogant manner. Explain that you perform EP simulation several times on each and every jump. It would be wise to practice many times on every jump. By practice, it's not touch the handles.... it's simulate pulling them like you mean it.

This is brought up again at the end of the post.

------------------------------
First off, I read this thread before I realized who this TheRanchPROshop was. It is the first post I've read from it. Before I figured it out, I'd already formed an opinion of someone I don't know, based on the first post I read from him. It can be changed but this is all I have to go with.

In my experience of dealing with people, this is what I got out of reading the first post.

I'm going to take a wild guess this pertains to more than just emergency procedures. So in my head, and probably other peoples heads, Here is you in a nutshell.

- Your opinion is the correct opinion.
- You are lucky to have that opinion.
- Anyone who doesn't share your opinion is wrong
- too bad those people are foolish

I'm going to stand by that... for now.

Quick background since you provided yours. I'm an instructor. I'm a rigger with a strong rigging background. It's one I don't bother sharing on forums. I'd make a good S&TA but I don't want to do it. I have a life outside skydiving so I'd rather enjoy my time at the DZ when I'm there.

I have seen and experienced problems throughout my life but for the purpose of this thread I'll stick to the EPs you listed.

I was tought Both hands on cutaway. Look locate reserve. Pull cutaway. Then both hands on reserve, pull reserve just like your poll. I could do the routine but if i had to say it out loud the words got in the way and slowed me down. Too many individual steps to a simple act.


When it comes to students, I SELDOM do first jump courses. If I do, I use the accepted method chosen by the dz. When it is time to review emergency procedures I ask the student to demonstrate the way they were taught. If they say it out loud, that's fine, if they don't that's fine. What I do want is a demonstration. I want them to demonstrate it with purpose. If they are weak about it, I turn sideways so they don't mirror me, I arch, and I demonstrate it like I mean it. If corrections are required, this is when they happen. We go over this until I'm satisfied.

As for me personally, when I was cleared for self supervision I changed my procedures to one hand each handle. I do not peel handles at the same time.. I peel then push the handle out, then as a second move, I do the same for the reserve after my chosen delay.

Out of more than 10 or more cutaways, I've had 1 hard one. When it happened, my left hand automatically went over for the assist. It just so happened that on that particular nearly impossible cutaway, I could see my handles before I grabbed them. My head was pinned down. We learned about hard riser housings soon after this incident. Every single cutaway before, and after, the handles were in my hand before I looked.


Here's a thought for back in the day when you had unsatisfactory handles in your rig. When you were jumping with inferior handles like a flat javelin handle, You should have fixed it. I knew better than to use a flat handle the first time I saw one, and my jumping experience was quite low. It felt WRONG and flimsy and hard to grab especially in gloves.


When people drop off their rigs and you ask them to demonstrate their procedures. Have them put on the rig. If you want them to do it correctly it's up to you to change their mind set to being in freefall.Start with the main pilot chute... It's important. If you don't , you are setting them up for failure.

OK... We're going to review your emergency procedures. Now don't pull your handles yet. We are back in the air and you throw out the main pilot chute. Practice your procedures like you really mean it. When we're done practicing, you can actually pull all the other handles.

The success rate is higher that way.


Ok that's WAY too many words for one post. If you read this far, Thanks :)

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[NickDG 23]

>>in an emergency, my first priority is to get rid of the bad canopy. And in a perfect world, as soon as that happens the RSL starts reserve deployment.
I realize not every one posting here is, ever was, or ever will be an instructor. But the above, and a few other posts, show this same flawed thinking. Any emergency procedure that even alludes to an AAD or an RSL is flat wrong. It was wrong back in the day, it's wrong today, and it will be wrong tomorrow . . .

NickD

[skydiverkeith 1]

Quote

>>in an emergency, my first priority is to get rid of the bad canopy. And in a perfect world, as soon as that happens the RSL starts reserve deployment.
I realize not every one posting here is, ever was, or ever will be an instructor. But the above, and a few other posts, show this same flawed thinking. Any emergency procedure that even alludes to an AAD or an RSL is flat wrong. It was wrong back in the day, it's wrong today, and it will be wrong tomorrow . . .

NickD

Why?

Blue skies,
Keith Medlock

[faulknerwn 37]

Many people own rigs without RSLs. Many of our rookie jumpers buy used gear which don't have RSLs. I like the 2 hands on each handle only if you have an RSL. If you have a violent spinning malfunction, it is EXTREMELY hard to keep an eye on the reserve handle while not looking at the cutaway and you are spinning and tumbling. I've had 18 chops over the years, 7 or so from CRW. There have been 3 I think of those, where for one reason or another (spinning mal which took 2 hands to cutaway, and some CRW jumps where I needed to freefall clear before pulling reserve) where I had to work to find the reserve handle. I.e it wasn't visible because the harness shifted and I had to start my hand on the 3 rings and worked my way down the liftweb until I found the handle.

One of those I was probably at 6k after a CRW chop and all I remember thinking was that I was going to look like an idiot in Parachutist for chopping and never pulling my reserve :-)

When rigs move around during malfunctions - especially rigs with hip/chest rings - it can be hard to find handles. And reserve handles can be even harder to find after a chop if they're soft rather than hard.

One of my CRW jobs when I went tumbling off after a cutaway it took a thousand feet of diligently working my harness till I found the reserve handle. Luckily I was at 6k rather than 2k..

Since most freefall mals happen far closer to 2k, I would be afraid to chop that low without a hand on the reserve handle unless I had an RSL. Especially if the mal is violent and tumbling, it is next to impossible to keep your eyes on that handle as you're rolling.

My dz teaches 1 hand on each handle. If students come from other places, I keep with whatever they were originally taught. I can say though that I have never seen even one person who was taught 2 hands on the cutaway actually look at their reserve handle the first time I put them in the practice harness. Your natural instinct is to look at what you're pulling.

I've got 7000 jumps. I don't think I could keep my eyes on my reserve handle in a tumbling unstable mal. I think the 2 hands on each handle works great for students and anyone with an RSL. If you're jumping a rig without an RSL, I'm not so sure about it.. I think it will take you at least 500-1000 feet longer to get a reserve out than the 1 hand per handle method.

Oh - and the one hand on each handle method should NEVER involve pulling the reserve handle out of the pocket until after the cutaway is achieved. That avoids the floating ripcord situations...