How do you teach Emergancy Procedures (Cutting Away)

[timmyfitz 0]

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However, using the first method almost bit me in the ass after a really bad spinner on my Stiletto. I grabbed right and left, peeled the Velcro on the cutaway pud, and removed the reserve ripcord from its keeper pocket. Then found out I couldn't budge the cutaway handle........I dropped the reserve handle (which now became a floater)

This seems like a problem you caused as far as the reserve handle floating. The reserve handle shouldn't be pulled from the Velcro or the pocket until you are sure the cutaway is a success.

I was taught one hand per handle starting at jump 16. Before that I was on a S.O.S. system. I have never had a problem in 9 cutaways.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

While I can appreciate your enthusiasm and dedication to your chosen method, Sonic, I am going to have to disagree with you. I have been a rated instructor since 1982 and have always worked at schools that use the "one hand per handle" EP method. That's three different dropzones and four different schools.

Ultimately, I think it's like Tim said: be confident in your procedures and practice them repeatedly on EVERY skydive. I touch my handles in the order I will use them not less than five times every ride to altitude. I make my AFF students do it over and over on the ground and in the plane as well. I don't think it's dumb luck that I have never seen any of our students bounce because of an out of sequence cutaway.

Just my opinion and experiences as a VERY experienced instructor who uses the "obsolete" method. Your mileage, though, clearly varies.

Good thread though. I like a good debate, even if it's started by an Iranian.

Chuckie, D-12501
AFF/SL/TM-I, PRO, S&TA

[TheRanchPROshop 0]

Fiesta Boy,

Well, it's a simple fact that if you use the one handed method it is possible to have an out of sequence procedure, FACT! Non debatable. I have seen so many rookies pull their handles in the shop when getting a repack, who have never had a cutaway, forget to peel their reserve and jam out there easy to pull "D" handle, OUT OF SEQUENCE. TOO many times. Simple FACT, you can't do that with the two handed method, FACT!!!

Bro, just because you have been teaching it that long at different DZ's doesn't make it right. Do your students a favor and start teaching them the SAFER method.

By the way I'm Turkish, you bone licka.

P.S. Dom, I love you too man.

Kamuran "Sonic" Bayrasli
The Ranch PROshop
Buy Baby Buy!

[tetra316 0]

Well, it's a simple fact that if you use the two handed method it is possible to not be able to find your reserve handle due to a shifting harness and you cannot see it due to spinning on your back. FACT! Non debatable. Simple FACT, you can't do that with the one handed method, FACT!!!


It goes both ways. You should know that.

[Baksteen 84]

How about a student messing up the pulling order?

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[timmyfitz 0]

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Fiesta Boy,

Well, it's a simple fact that if you use the one handed method it is possible to have an out of sequence procedure, FACT!

It is a fact that it is possible? That's funny.

It is also a simple fact that if you use the one handed method it is possible to not have an out of sequence procedure. FACT!

Get over yourself.

[dninness 4]

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So, if you absolutely KNOW the right answer, why the poll and the thread??????????
Forgive me for not voting.

Yeah, I mean, I'd vote, but since I personally use the method that's so decidedly inferior, whats the point?

What I teach is different than what I personally use, however.

NIN
D-19617, AFF-I '19

[TheRanchPROshop 0]

OK Timmy,

First of all your lucky to still be alive. Why, you ask. Well, you stated that you started on a S.O.S. system which I think is DEATH. Any DZ with those systems should be shut down. With and S.O.S. system when the shit hits the fan, all you got to do is pull the handle on your left side. Then when people get their own rigs, they have to re-learn their EP's. That is the stupidest thing ever. In high stress situations, people might go to what they originally learned and pull their reserve before cutting away. It's happened.

Now let me rephrase what I said, so you can't twist it around.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to have an out of sequence procedure with the two handed method.

It is POSSIBLE to have an out of sequence procedure with the one handed method.

"Get over myself" really? Go PA removed by slotperfect! (OK here we go with the name calling)

As far as everyone else, the only thing bad to say about the two handed method is finding the reserve handle after cutting away. After you have your hands on the cutaway handle, YOU LOOK AND LOCATE THE RESERVE HANDLE. As far as the harness shifting, after you cut away the harness with go back to where it was prior to deploying your reserve. So as far as not finding it, maybe you should think about bowling instead of skydiving.

Also the other people that are talking about the one handed method is more 'natural' than the two handed method. I ask what is natural in skydiving? Nothing. And as far as the two handed method being too long of a sequence to learn and makes it harder to peel the velcro, WOW your really PA removed by slotperfect. You should be bowling too.

So now that I started calling people names and telling you how your all wrong, please start the bashing. Thank you.

By the way, no one has given any real reason why the two handed method isn't the best way to go.

Kamuran "Sonic" Bayrasli
The Ranch PROshop
Buy Baby Buy!

[ufk22 32]

OK, to be clearer than I was in my 1st post.
This is not a discussion, it appears to be a lecture.
Always hated those lectures.
"This is what happened to me once, therefore I know what's best for everyone, anytime, in any situation"
Please feel free to wallow in your own little world while the rest of us go on in this one.
And people wonder why newbs think people with experience just have "more years of attitude".
In some cases the newbs may be right!!!!

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[timmyfitz 0]

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OK Timmy,

First of all your lucky to still be alive. Why, you ask. Well, you stated that you started on a S.O.S. system which I think is DEATH. Any DZ with those systems should be shut down. With and S.O.S. system when the shit hits the fan, all you got to do is pull the handle on your left side. Then when people get their own rigs, they have to re-learn their EP's. That is the stupidest thing ever. In high stress situations, people might go to what they originally learned and pull their reserve before cutting away. It's happened.

Your arrogance aside, I am not lucky to be alive. I learned my EP's, practiced them over and over and when the time came to use them, I did it as I was taught and practiced.

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It is IMPOSSIBLE to have an out of sequence procedure with the two handed method.

Wrong again. I had a student a few years ago that was taught the two hand method. He was drilled on it repeatedly during the first jump course I taught. He never did a single practice EP wrong. On his first jump that same day, he had a line over and used a two handed method to pull his reserve first then his cutaway.

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It is POSSIBLE to have an out of sequence procedure with the one handed method.

And as I described above, it's POSSIBLE to have an out of sequence pull using the two hand method. There is nothing black and white here. Only in your mind.

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"Get over myself" really? Go blow douchebag!

That is an excellent reply. I now see why everyone should listen to your advice. With such a well thought out response, how could anyone not heed your warnings.

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WOW your really an idiot.

When logic and reason fail lets try insults.

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By the way, no one has given any real reason why the two handed method isn't the best way to go.

There have been reasons given just none that you find acceptable. If anyone disagrees with you it is unacceptable.

[billvon 2,384]

Lots of misinformation in this thread.

First off, it's possible to have an out of sequence deployment with any system. Under high stress situations students do strange things. The two hands per handle can minimize (but not eliminate) that possibility.

Second, most SOS systems have all the same handles that a regular rig has, and emergency procedures are the same. They _act_ differently (i.e. the left side handle both cuts away and deploys the reserve) but that's not apparent to a student transitioning.

Third, retraining is not the 'black death' everyone seems to think it is. We used to use BOC ripcords for AFF students. On the students I taught via this method*, perhaps 2-3 held on to the PC too long when they transitioned. None had any problems as a result. And main deployment is a much harder habit to break since they actually do it on every skydive in a high pressure situation.

Finally, one-hand-per-handle is necessary for anyone who does tandems. For people who do tandems, it's a lot better (IMO) to have one procedure than two.

(* - total of about 1000 students; perhaps 100 made it through to the transition jump.)

[Ron 7]

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If there is anyone out there that thinks the "One hand per handle" method is better, your WRONG. There is nothing that you could say that would change the fact that, that method is better.

Except the people that have burned in looking for the reserve handle that shifted after the cutaway and they spent the rest of their lives looking for it.

You are entitled to an opinion, but to claim anyone that does not agree with you as wrong is a bit over the top.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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It is IMPOSSIBLE to have an out of sequence procedure with the two handed method.

No it is possible. They grab the left with both hands and pull.

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the only thing bad to say about the two handed method is finding the reserve handle after cutting away

And in free fall that can take the rest of your life.

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By the way, no one has given any real reason why the two handed method isn't the best way to go.

Sure we have.. you just ignored and insulted them.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jimmytavino 16]

edited to point out that while i DID train and jumpmaster many hundreds of static line parachutists from 1973 to 1980,,, with great success in generating new enthusiastic full time jumpers,,,, i do not now have any UPSA instructor rating. The coach rating which i earned recently has expired since i was unable to meet the annual minimum..MY fault... ( though i bet over 50 % of 'coaches' out there actually do less than 10 coach jumps a year... ( just my gut feeling )

Now realizing that this thread is in the Instructors Forum, i needed to add the above disclaimer




whoa.....could be that many who have posted here, need to relax...

if we resolve NOt to smoke it down,,, before pulling... we would ALL give ourselves the time needed to respond to trouble..

wanna Jump a heavily loaded elliptical ?? fine have at it.. (to each his own).. BUT consider hard housings for your cutaway cables... anticipate the possibility of an issue at opening... IF you DO catch a spinner.... Don't delay... as chances are it will get worse... before it gets better..That goes for ANY malfunction...
The O.P. rightly points out the real chance that the reserve gets fired.. before the main gets cutaway....Sure the cutaway pad,, COULD have been "pulled " first... but a simple tug on that PAD, does NOT automatically mean the 3 rings let go...
and so in those cases,,, a tug, and then for many reasons.. ( Muscle memory among them, ) Bang !! the reserve handle gets pulled...
ya gotta peel the release pad,, BEFORE pulling it...something that is not always understood by jumpers,, novice and experienced alike...

2 hands will usually provide much MORE force than one..
and increase the likelihood of a COMPLETE and FULL extraction of both cables,,, rather than a wimpy one handed "pop" on the handle,, which could release,, One,, None Or if you're lucky....Both cables..
why take the chance..?
Hit it !! and Hit it hard.... and both hands help to insure that you DO breakaway..
Now if you can't find your own reserve handle,,, while your eyes are ON it.... you have other issues which need to be worked out...
Afraid that there might be a time delay.. between cutaway and reserve pull???? well that IS a valid concern... so ALLOW for it,, by
1. pulling a bit highter
2. by NOT screwing around trying to "Fix" something
3 by being forceful and emphatic whenever pulling handles..... EVEN when pulling your main..... ( so many people simply 'take out' the main pc and drop it in the slipstream...)
Rather , i prefer to throw that sucker... and throw it like you mean it...
Two hands on the emergency handles increase the chances of pulling that pad..(which WILL offer resistance) FAR enough and Hard enough... to accomplish what it is that you're doing.....which just happens to be......losing the trash over your head,, so that you can safely get yourself under a landable canopy.. before you reach land...

arrogance shmarrogance
that label
is usually in the eye of the beholder,,, and sometimes that beholder can be more blind than they realize..

experience DOES breed confidence and sometimes the desire to share what one believes in.. to the point of passion...That's not necessarily arrogance but more likely concern for ones' fellow jumpers...

let's not shoot the messenger because you don't agree with the message...and nothing wrong with respectfully disagreeing,, providing that you can justify the difference of opinion with verified examples...
God gave us 2 hands... and unless one is incapacitated,, it's best to use them BOTH.. to your utmost benefit..


jimmytavino
A 3914
4 stack 930
nscr 1817

[slotperfect 7]

A reminder to all - PAs are prohibited by the forum rules.

I just edited two posts in this thread for PAs - please think before you post or take your flame wars to PMs.

Thanks,

Arrive Safely

John

[faulknerwn 36]

What about people who cannot necessarily see their handles? Some women can't.

Heck - Rick Horn (?) a few years back was saved by an RSL because he couldn't see or find his reserve handle because it had tucked under and his rig rotated on him during a spinning mal. Saying its always easy to see your reserve handle is not true...

Every year there are people who cutaway and never pull their reserve or don't pull it in time. I do wonder what method they were trying to use. (Obviously I have no idea - only their friends/instructors would know. But it would be an interesting thing to try and find out.)

[wmw999 2,116]

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I do wonder what method they were trying to use. (Obviously I have no idea - only their friends/instructors would know. But it would be an interesting thing to try and find out.)

Even then it might be impossible, simply because how someone learned isn't always how they ended up doing it. I've seen a number of posts in here where people say that they always planned it one way, and when the time came they did it the other way. Going in both directions.

I know I'd always planned on one hand on each, but when the time came I automatically did two hands.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[livendive 8]

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I was taught one hand per handle starting at jump 16. Before that I was on a S.O.S. system. I have never had a problem in 9 cutaways.

I started on an SOS too, so my FJC instruction is irrelevent. Today, I teach two hands per handle, but I personally do one hand per handle (75% of my jumps are tandems, and my sport rig doesn't have an RSL).

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[livendive 8]

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It is IMPOSSIBLE to have an out of sequence procedure with the two handed method.

It is POSSIBLE to have an out of sequence procedure with the one handed method.

An out of sequence procedure occurs when someone pulls the reserve handle (step B) before pulling the cutaway handle (step A). Any person can make this mistake, thus it is equally POSSIBLE whether one uses one hand per handle or two. However, the closer steps A and B get to each other, the more PROBABLE it becomes that B will be performed before A, thus it will more commonly occur in those using one hand per handle. This is because the people using two hands per handle have a longer pause between A and B to realize A was unsuccessful before performing B.

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By the way, no one has given any real reason why the two handed method isn't the best way to go.

The majority of my jumps are on tandem rigs, on which a two-hands-per-handle procedure is impossible. I think there is value in having one procedure for all of the more common malfunctions, so my EPs from a baglock, spinner, lineover, etc will all be the same...pull right, pull left, arch. Also, I'd guess that one hand per handle is faster than two hands per handle, which may be significant when someone starts their EPs lower than advised.

That said, I teach my students two hands per handle.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[diablopilot 2]

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It is IMPOSSIBLE to have an out of sequence procedure with the two handed methodwhen done correctly.

It is POSSIBLE to have an out of sequence procedure with the one handed methodwhen done incorrectly.

Either system has it's flaws, and I have seen an out of sequence with a two handed training method.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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The majority of my jumps are on tandem rigs, on which a two-hands-per-handle procedure is impossible.

Not impossible, just difficult. I had to use two hands on a tandem break away last year (broken riser) and if that hadn't of worked I was going to have to risk putting a reserve past a trailing main.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[rehmwa 2]

if a student seems to be untrainable and keeps messing up on one technique, and the other one seems to "stick" - then guess which one is right for that individual?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kj126 0]

Believe me, I can see the benefits of the 2 handed pull, not creating an out of sequence deployment.

The 2 problems i have with this method is the not being able to locate the handle after pulling the cut away which has already been mentioned.

And the second is the body position that your setting the students in during a 2 handed cutaway, basically designed to flip them over as soon as the cutaway is performed.
Looking down,to the right,and head low.

The other method has both handles in hand and the ability to still arch for a cleaner reserve pull.

There are bad sides to both procedures and is probably the biggest reason USPA has never said(this way) is best.
Just my view on the topic.

I Am Sofa King We Todd Did!!

[Ron 7]

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I know I'd always planned on one hand on each, but when the time came I automatically did two hands.

Which way were you taught originally? I see lots of people that try to switch methods revert back to their original training.

I have used one hand on each handle 10 or so times... Only once did I ever have to use two hands on the cutaway and I still pulled the reserve with just one hand.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[wmw999 2,116]

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Which way were you taught originally?

I was originally taught to open the Capewell covers, hook my thumbs in the rings, look at my reserve handle on the belly wart, and pull the rings simultaneously; then go for the reserve.
When I got a three-ring, I had about 400 jumps and a couple reserve rides, and just decided what I thought made sense.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)