Should USPA raise there standards to Skydive U level for ratings

[ozzy13 0]

I would like to know what everyone thinks about this . Should USPA change their Coach rating course to the level of teaching that skydive U uses and why do you think that . Thanks

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[Para5-0 0]

Ozzy,
That is the ultimate goal, to make the same standards across the board. We are all working hard on making the USPA Coach Course and The Skydive University course the same or at least similiar curiculum. Some issues that have been raised are whether or not currently rated USPA Coach's would take the time to upgrade, so to speak. Some have and hopefully others will. I am an advocate of education in the sport. In other words we never stop learning, and beleive me their is some good new information being taught that was not being taught 5,10,15 years ago. I suggest if you are going to continue along this path, that you look into the Advanced Instructor Course as well. It can only make you a better instructor/or coach.
Side Note: their are some outstanding USPA Coaches out there, please do not miscontrude the above as a slight to them. Just a thought on how to standardize all future coaches.
good luck

[tdog 0]

I think the course directors need to be weeded thru. I know of a few well known directors (at least one I have worked under and evaluated candidates for) that sucks. I also have worked under one of the most awesome people too. I have evaluated for 3 coach course directors. 66% good. 33% that should not be allowed to be a director and as far as I am concerned stole money from their candidates because he taught nothing. If I said his name, you would know. I think the rating program and curriculum are all dependant on the instructor.

[JustChuteMeNow 0]

I think what tdog says bears repeating. Very good training can be received from course directors that are USPA or Skydive U certified. The same can be said for students that go through either course. Some will be great coaches and some won’t. Attitude accounts for a lot as well as a competent skill set. The skydive U course IMO has a higher standard but IMO the USPA course does what it is designed to do which is to provide a resource for new jumpers to go from student status to an A license.

Working with new students involve a pretty simple skydiving skill set that most coaches can demonstrate in either course. Skydive U shows some great ways to teach and it is certainly beneficial to use those methods; however, many new jumpers will benefit from a USPA coach. Put another way, if I have to teach math to someone learning calculus and I am a teaching assistant and not a math professor can I help them. Most likely I can help them even though I haven’t had the training of the college professor. What I am trying to convey is that a USPA coach does meet a certain standard and it is enough to help new students even though higher standards could be imposed.

Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that.

[peek 20]

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I would like to know what everyone thinks about this . Should USPA change their Coach rating course to the level of teaching that skydive U uses and why do you think that . Thanks

Please humor me here for not answering the question directly. Instead I will make a statement that hopefully will cause people to think a bit about what we are discussing.

Skydive U is a commercial entity, created to train skydivers to a certain proficiency, and to train people how to instruct using Skydive U methods (and standards), and charge for it.

USPA sets minimum standards to achieve safety by settings standards for rating holders. If people want to go above and beyond that, fine.

These are two entirely different things.

As instructional rating holders (of any national organization) we are responsible for training students to be as safe as possible, not to make perfect little skydivers out of them.

Skydiving is different for everyone. Not everyone wants to learn what you are teaching. Many people are quite happy to be safe and have fun.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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As instructional rating holders (of any national organization) we are responsible for training students to be as safe as possible, not to make perfect little skydivers out of them.

i think that s why skydiving has such poor retention post student-status. Sure, they are sorta safe, they can jump, pull and land without killing themselves, but not much else. But they can't really go jump successfully with others. They tire quickly of doing solos. Other skydivers want to jump with people that can fly, not coach people, so they quit.

People should be trained to be safe as well as fly with others.

USPA has been lowering, not increasing heir minimum Instructional rating standards. Remember, DZO's make money by the jump, not by the quality of the instruction given on that jump. If anything, they make re with a poor Instructor since the student is more likely to have to make re-peat jumps. Quality Instructors know they are quality and expect better pay, treatment, benefits, etc. Poor Instructors and just happy to making money skydiving. Since DZO's control USPA, keeping the Instructional standards low works in their favor financially. Conflict of interest.

I recently met an 'Instructor' that had 16 total skydives, 2 free falls and said she was "white knuckled" in the airplane.

Derek

[peek 20]

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... they can jump, pull and land without killing themselves, but not much else. But they can't really go jump successfully with others.

I don't doubt what you have seen, but I'm pretty sure some of this is regional and varies from DZ to DZ too. In my area recently licensed skydivers usually stick around for the (average) couple of years regardless of who they jump with. (If "wildfan75" reads this thread I'm sure she will tell you about how satisfied she is with her DZ.)

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Remember, DZO's make money by the jump, not by the quality of the instruction given on that jump. If anything, they make re with a poor Instructor since the student is more likely to have to make re-peat jumps. ... Since DZO's control USPA, keeping the Instructional standards low works in their favor financially.

Never thought of it that way, so don't say that too loud, because we don't want any more of them figuring that out.

[JustChuteMeNow 0]

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Remember, DZO's make money by the jump, not by the quality of the instruction given on that jump. If anything, they make re with a poor Instructor since the student is more likely to have to make re-peat jumps. ... Since DZO's control USPA, keeping the Instructional standards low works in their favor financially.

Never thought of it that way, so don't say that too loud, because we don't want any more of them figuring that out.

Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that.

[ozzy13 0]

Skydive U is a commercial entity, created to train skydivers to a certain proficiency, and to train people how to instruct using Skydive U methods (and standards), and charge for it.

Why wouldn't we want that ?

USPA sets minimum standards to achieve safety by settings standards for rating holders. If people want to go above and beyond that, fine.

Don't we need more then that ?

I ask because I just got my rating for both USPA and skydive U last week and I think that I want to give everything I can to the student to be safe and to be able to fly (with others ) .Why should we as coaches just settle.
The whole thing about the teachers aid I understand I guess but even as a teachers aid dont you want to teach them so they get it or just so they can pass?

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[JustChuteMeNow 0]

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The whole thing about the teachers aid I understand I guess but even as a teachers aid dont you want to teach them so they get it or just so they can pass?

Perhaps I wasn't very clear with this analagy. I meant that both the teacher's aid and the professor both had way more knowledge than their students and that to teach the basics both were very qualified. Put another way most people know how to add and subtract and can help children learning this concept without being a teacher just like most coaches can teach new students how to track or do a diving exit. They have the skills to work with NEW skydivers and help them get their "A" which is the primary reason the USPA coaches rating exists.

I said it once that the Skydive U course is a great course and has higher standards which should allow a person graduating from that course some good tools to help new skydivers. That said I believe that a USPA coaches course provides good tools as well and while the methods may differ IMO they both get the job done. The skill set isn't complicated to work with rookie skydivers.

Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that.

[peek 20]

ozzy:
Why wouldn't we want that ?

peek:
"Charge for it" are the key words there. Skydiving is already expensive enough. If we send every coach through something like Skydive U, which cost them a lot, they are going to feel like they need to charge students even more.

Note: The "improved" USPA programs are already having this effect!

ozzy:
Don't we need more then that ?

peek:
No. We need people to be safe skydivers and then let them choose where to go from there.

[ozzy13 0]

I am not trying to put USPA coaches down or anything here . I know a few that are very good at what they do .I put this up here to see what other people think and to see if there were other people out there that think the bar should be raised . Yes safety is very important . I think and hope when I get done with a student that they have a good foundation on how to fly too .

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[Kimsdu 0]

Gary Peek, The sdu Coach course is actually about the same price as a USPA course. I think you get a little more for your money going to an Sdu course.

Doing a coach jump with an SDU coach through SDU schools is no more expensive than getting coaching at a dz that does not have a campus, In fact i work at the DeLand campus and can tell you i have been to many dzs charging alot more than what sdu does.

[Lana26 0]

Sounds like Peek has a personal gripe with SDU.
I agree the SDU course is soo much better, i have taken both and SDU was unbelievable, Invaluable and cost the same as the Uspa course.

I also agree with Kim who was my coach, My coach jumps with her thru SDU were $9 cheaper, she has incredible talent.
The person who xcoached me at $9 more had less experience, jumps and wasnt a great coach/teacher, and he was not an Sdu coach.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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No. We need people to be safe skydivers and then let them choose where to go from there.

And they are choosing to go home.

Derek

[peek 20]

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Gary Peek, The sdu Coach course is actually about the same price as a USPA course. I think you get a little more for your money going to an Sdu course.

My guess is that you probably get a lot more going to a SDU course.

That does not mean every student trained via a USPA program needs an instructor trained by SDU.

There is a place in the world for minimum standards, after which the "customer" chooses how much further to go and how much more to pay. That is what USPA should do.

[peek 20]

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Sounds like Peek has a personal gripe with SDU.

Peek does not have a personal gripe with SDU. If you would like further information perhaps you can contact Rob Laidlaw and ask him about me.

People tend to compare SDU instruction with instruction provided by commercial skydiving centers. That is not a fair comparison. SDU instruction will usually be better because of its very nature.

If they add to that comparison the instruction given by instructors who instruct to give back to the sport and who do not charge commercial rates, the topics I discussed earlier in the thread should make more sense.

[ozzy13 0]

This is why I started this thread. My feeling is as a new coach the student should only get the best ( Not a minimum standard ) My Dz a coach gets 30 bucks and his slot paid for . Is that commercial. I don't think so . Its not even about the money for me . I started this discussion because I thought the SDU course was great and as a coach I think I will teach the student more then just to be safe. My true feelings are that all coaches should take the SDU program old and new and Uspa should change there course to the SDU one . Hey I am new at this and it is just how I feel

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[PhreeZone 15]

At $30 plus slot that puts you charging at least $70 for a coach jump. Add in gear rental and a pack job and its a $100-125 jump for the student. That is almost at some places later AFF jump prices. That is very commercial. $30 is about the same pay level that some instructors make for their student jumps or tandem videos.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[riggerrob 558]

Welcome to USAP internal politics.

First of all, the "not invented here" syndrome is alive and well and serving on USPA's Board of Directors.

Secondly, a lot of old-school coaches and instructors fear that they will lose their privileges/livelihood if USPA upgrades coaching standards to SDU levels.
Too many good-old-boys are happy with the old standard/ratings.
Heaven forbid that they might have to learn something new!
Mocking laughter!!!

Truth is: USPA routinely "grandfathers" (holders of older ratings) when they introduce new programs.

I firmly believe that coaches and instructors and riggers and pilots, etc. should attend some sort of refresher or upgrading training every two or three years. If they are not planning to upgrade their skills on a regular basis, they should quit.
I also believe in "putting my ass where my sass is."

For example, despite holding a CSPA Instructor B rating for twenty-odd years, when CSPA introduced its new Skydive School Instructor (basically the ground school portion of the first jump course), last year, I attended an SSI Course.
The good news is that I had not forgotten nearly as much as I feared. Furthermore, I learned a couple of new teaching techniques. The biggest thing I got from the SSI Course was the notion of confirming what the student has learned.

[ozzy13 0]

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At $30 plus slot that puts you charging at least $70 for a coach jump. Add in gear rental and a pack job and its a $100-125 jump for the student. That is almost at some places later AFF jump prices. That is very commercial. $30 is about the same pay level that some instructors make for their student jumps or tandem videos.

Well it should be the same . Why pay a video guy more and all he is doing is videoing the skydive . The coach is at least teaching something to the student . I also clearly stated that I really don't care about the money . I have another source of income . I do it because I love this sport and like to help people

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[raymond_jones 0]

the last time i checked the USPA is the one that gives ratings not the SDU. if thats the case than your SDU rating is a USPA rating. you might have taken a different offshoot of the course, but your doing the same course, to be a coach.

personally by some of the responses you've already proven that the SDU course is not as good as the USPA course, because all of you are saying that my course is better that yours and im a better coach because of it. with that said, if you came at me like that being a coach, i would promptly go to manifest or the school and ask for someone else. {rule of thumb: professionals don't degrade other professionals, they do their job as best as they can and if they have an issue they don't do it in front of students, or future students in a public forum, they pull the other professionals aside and work out their differences.}

as for coaching, charging someone $30 + a pack job is just bullshit for most coaches. ok you paid an assload for a course, that doesn't entitle you to charge ppl. i think covering your slot is reasonable but beyond that, your just ripping them off. any joe dick in the mud can teach ppl to move forward, backward, do turns, dock, ect. i think a person that teaches ppl how to backfly, freefly, ect, that has proven themselves to amoung the best (went to nationals and placed) should be the ppl that charge for coach jumps. but some person who just attended the basic course is just poo.

"your the shit till you eat it !!!!!!!! damn that wall hurts..."

[Lana26 0]

***
as for coaching, charging someone $30 + a pack job is just bullshit for most coaches. ok you paid an assload for a course, that doesn't entitle you to charge ppl. i think covering your slot is reasonable but beyond that, your just ripping them off. any joe dick in the mud can teach ppl to move forward, backward, do turns, dock, ect. i think a person that teaches ppl how to backfly, freefly, ect, that has proven themselves to amoung the best (went to nationals and placed) should be the ppl that charge for coach jumps. but some person who just attended the basic course is just poo.

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I think you are misreading this thread. And to say that only freeflyers should be the ones able to charge for coach jumps just tells me that your one of those people on dz.com that logs in to stir up shit by writing silly things that dont make any sense.

[Allballs 0]

Did you even read this thread??

[ozzy13 0]

Thanks to the last two posts . I thought I was going crazy LOL

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!