Should USPA raise there standards to Skydive U level for ratings

[skybeergodd 0]

Ozzy...I just happen to be a Skydive U coach and also a USPA coach course dierctor and I 100% believe there should be a difference between the two. I do USPA coaching jumps and follow the ISP when doing so. Those students get a very good ground prep and skydive....I also do Skydive U coach jumps and those students pay much more, they get a very extensive ground prep and are help to a higher standard. Now I'm guessing you have never TRUELY delt with DZ management but I can give you this insite.....ALL repeat students want their A-license, to do so they must get coach jumps per the ISP(look at the A card and know the BSR's and you can figure out that they must have rating holders to jumps with once they graduate the student progression)...Most newby jumpers have already spent close to $1200 to $1500 and to FORCE them to pay more for Sky U is just bad business...I'm sure I have been doing thos for much longer than you have and I am 100% confident in say...Students will get their A, be happy for awhile, build a small bank roll and once they get a big taste for RW or Freeflying they will seek out an advanced coach or Sky U coach to rapidly improve.....LEAVE THE CHOICE UP TO THEM!.

[ozzy13 0]

Ok thanks that sounds like good advice and I see the whole problem with the money as I was a student going through AFP last year. This thread was not about money or the student . It is about the people teaching them. Again I am not really doing it for the money . I took the USPA and SDU courses and found the SDU one went more in depth on the teaching methods . That's why I started this topic going . The course cost the same and I got so much more out of the SDU course . Times change and I realize people get stuck in there ways . The A card coach jumps really don't teach a student to fly . I think it is just a safety thing more then anything else . I just wanted to get everyone else's feeling on this since I am new at being a coach and what to continue to learn as much as I can . There are so many people out there that I can learn from and I love to pick brains . I think to be a good coach is learn as many methods from as many people as you can and mesh it together . Thank you to everyone for their responses

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[Para5-0 0]

Raymond,
I have spent some time, too much if you ask me, reading what threads you have responded to, in an effort to see exactly what angle you are attacking this thread from. Unfortunately, I am unable to understand several things. You have no home DZ listed, you have, no jump #'s, or ratings listed. Where is this wealth of knowledge coming from?
Let me elaborate on the purpose of this thread;
Ozzy13 has posed a question, simply what is the difference between the two ratings and how can he make himself a better coach through education. He is looking for assistance not discouragement.
As far as your statement, "any joe dick in the mud can teach ppl to move forward, backward, do turns, dock, ect.".
I truly can not beleive that this comment has gone unaddressed. If that were the case then why even have ratings? You can just teach everyone. Being a coach USPA or otherwise is far more in depth than teaching forward motion. I have both ratings and can tell you that I have seen coaches on both sides that are excellent. We can't just stop there and close ours eyes. If skydive U has a different way to do things then we should look at it and see if we can make it work so to speak for the STUDENTS> That is ultimately who will benefit from threads like this.
To Ozzy: Yes their is a vast difference between the two approaches. Keep an open mind and learn from GOOD INSTRUCTORS, regardless of the rating. Raymond is of the mindset that anyone can be a coach. Untrue!! It takes someone who cares about the future of the sport to be a coach, (USPA or Skydive U).

Raymond: If a student covers a slot for the coach, then how exactly do you suggest coaches make a living? You do realize some people do this full time as a profession?

[ozzy13 0]

Raymond- the last time i checked the USPA is the one that gives ratings not the SDU. if thats the case than your SDU rating is a USPA rating. you might have taken a different offshoot of the course, but your doing the same course, to be a coach.

Ozzy- If you read the forum I took both courses

Raymond - personally by some of the responses you've already proven that the SDU course is not as good as the USPA course,

Ozzy - I don't know HOW you came to that concussion

Raymond -because all of you are saying that my course is better that yours and im a better coach because of it.

Ozzy - I really dont remember saying that . I think both courses were good and that SDU went more in depth on the teaching part of the course


Raymond - with that said, if you came at me like that being a coach, i would promptly go to manifest or the school and ask for someone else.

Ozzy- I would do the same thing .I would tell them that I could not teach you anything because you know everything.

Raymond - {rule of thumb: professionals don't degrade other professionals, they do their job as best as they can and if they have an issue they don't do it in front of students, or future students in a public forum, they pull the other professionals aside and work out their differences.}

Ozzy - I agree 100% Last time I check this was the Instructors Forum and I don't have a issue . I was asking other Instructors their opinion on the coach rating.

Raymond -as for coaching, charging someone $30 + a pack job is just bullshit for most coaches. ok you paid an assload for a course, that doesn't entitle you to charge ppl. i think covering your slot is reasonable but beyond that, your just ripping them off.

Ozzy - I think there a lot of people that would disagree with this statement

Raymond- any joe dick in the mud can teach ppl to move forward, backward, do turns, dock, ect.

Ozzy- Again I think there a lot of people that would disagree with this statement


Raymond- i think a person that teaches ppl how to backfly, freefly, ect, that has proven themselves to amoung the best (went to nationals and placed) should be the ppl that charge for coach jumps. but some person who just attended the basic course is just poo.

Ozzy - If the coach rating was that easy everyone would have one . I think I have proven my self by getting the rating.


I am a new coach and never said I know everything . I am trying to learn every day. If I can help someone out that is rewarding enough.

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[livendive 8]

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as for coaching, charging someone $30 + a pack job is just bullshit for most coaches. ok you paid an assload for a course, that doesn't entitle you to charge ppl. i think covering your slot is reasonable but beyond that, your just ripping them off.

I charge slot plus $6 for a coach jump and pass the $6 on to the coach. Ain't nobody gonna get rich off it, but I think coaches who are getting paid for the jump, even if just a token amount, will be more inclined to conduct themselves professionally. It's an entry level instructional jump, so what's wrong with some entry level pay?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[monkycndo 0]

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as for coaching, charging someone $30 + a pack job is just bullshit for most coaches. ok you paid an assload for a course, that doesn't entitle you to charge ppl. i think covering your slot is reasonable but beyond that, your just ripping them off.

I charge slot plus $6 for a coach jump and pass the $6 on to the coach. Ain't nobody gonna get rich off it, but I think coaches who are getting paid for the jump, even if just a token amount, will be more inclined to conduct themselves professionally. It's an entry level instructional jump, so what's wrong with some entry level pay?

Blues,
Dave

If anything, the $6 at least covers the cost of the packjob.

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[raymond_jones 0]

to answer your questions:
iv'e been jumping since '99. everyplace i've been to is home. as for numbers well........

i got the purpose of the thread. i was giving him or her a different perspective to think of.

all the manuvers of forward movement, turns and docking are involved in getting your A license. who do you think students ask 1st? answer: their peers. with that said, yes every "joe dick in the mud can teach ppl...."

how do you know what mindset im in, you don't even know me. I am in total agreence of ppl learning new ways to do things, but it's the same thing being a USPA coach or a SDU coach. whatever method you do it, through USPA or SDU, your still getting a USPA COACH RATING.

and to answer your last question: if a person has enough jumps to get a coach rating and expects to make a living off of it, then good luck. other ppl with a coach rating will gladly do it for free. it's about helping beginers in the sport learning the basics, not about getting a free check. on the other side of this, if your a "world champion" swooper giving a canopy course then I would expect to pay a fee other than a slot. It's like a packer charging a fee for a packing class that should be taught in the 1st jump course.....BULLSHIT!!!

And how should someone that is a basic coach make a living? Try wall-mart, taco bell, or the unemployment office untill they have enough experience to teach HD, swooping, RW, wingsuit flying, ect. profecentitly. but a coach with 200+ jumps shouldn't attempt to make a living teaching new and upcoming students a damn thing without the evperience to back it up. and if your implying that they should then........................

"your the shit till you eat it !!!!!!!! damn that wall hurts..."

[Para5-0 0]

but a coach with 200+ jumps shouldn't attempt to make a living teaching new and upcoming students a damn thing without the evperience to back it up. and if your implying that they should then........................


Then why does USPA only require 100 jumps and a B license to be a coach??
I do not recall it saying, You are eligible to get the rating but can not charge until you win a national Free Flying Competition, in your words.

Listen, I hear what you are saying and I even respect your opinion, I just have a different one. I beleive if coaches are going to be teaching students they should be equipped with the latest education, and given the proper tools to do the job. And I mean, do it to high standards not just forward and backward motion. It is deeper than that. FYI, I have taught both courses and choose to use the same sylabus for both. Doesnt that solve the problem.. Coaches are getting both ratings in the same class. Now all coaches are ready to go into the student world and teach...

P.S. I remember paying for a packing class.....

[riggerrob 558]

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the last time i checked the USPA is the one that gives ratings not the SDU. if thats the case than your SDU rating is a USPA rating.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Not exactly.
When USPA "recognizes" an SDU rating, they are just being polite.
That does not make an SDU rating a USPA rating. They are two separate organizations.

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[riggerrob 558]

It's like a packer charging a fee for a packing class that should be taught in the 1st jump course.....BULLSHIT!!!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Raymond,

We disagree on so many levels ....

I specifically avoid teaching packing - during a first jump course - because it is more information than a first-timer can absorb in one day.

[ozzy13 0]

That's why I started the topic . For the future of the sport we should give the best we can offer to the student . NOT some minimum standard . I was taught by some really good USPA coaches . I just think that combining SDU's way with USPA's would be a good thing for the sport.

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[livendive 8]

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That's why I started the topic . For the future of the sport we should give the best we can offer to the student . NOT some minimum standard . I was taught by same really good USPA coaches . I just think that combining SDU's way with USPA's would be a good thing for the sport.

You did these courses last week? At the risk of drawing the wrath of dz.com, I gotta say, "Awww...they're so cute at this stage"

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[ozzy13 0]

Quote

It's like a packer charging a fee for a packing class that should be taught in the 1st jump course.....BULLSHIT!!!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Raymond,

We disagree on so many levels ....

I specifically avoid teaching packing - during a first jump course - because it is more information than a first-timer can absorb in one day.

That goes back to the 7+/- 2 rule

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[riggerrob 558]

on the other side of this, if your a "world champion" swooper giving a canopy course then I would expect to pay a fee other than a slot.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Raymond,

We also disagree on this point.
Just becoming a world champion does not necessarily make you a good coach.
Too many "world class athletes" are such natural athletes they they don't know how to explain how to move from point A to point B, they just do the maneuver instinctively.
Becoming a good coach requires far more brain cells ... to break a maneuver into simple steps, explain those steps to a junior jumper, then put the whole maneuver together in the air.

I can count on two fingers the number of world champion skydivers who have taught me anything about skydiving. One of those world champion skydivers is Rob Laidlaw.
Oh!
Wait a minute!
Isn't Rob Laidlaw the president of Skydive University?

[ozzy13 0]

Quote

Quote

That's why I started the topic . For the future of the sport we should give the best we can offer to the student . NOT some minimum standard . I was taught by same really good USPA coaches . I just think that combining SDU's way with USPA's would be a good thing for the sport.

You did these courses last week? At the risk of drawing the wrath of dz.com, I gotta say, "Awww...they're so cute at this stage"

Blues,
Dave

All in the course of learning .... Give me more lol

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[raymond_jones 0]

im one of those ppl that expects a certain standard for something if im paying for it, with that said if i wanted coaching in a discipline, then i want coached from a proven person. (in my eyes)

i also believe that anybody can learn from anyone if they are willing to take the steps to do so.

you have a good opinion from the other side which i can respect.

and last but not least: i had to be able to pack within a certain time limit before i jumped. i packed for every jump i did on "student status" it was a requirement that i believe should be used for everyone. i think it helps build self confidence and enhanses the learning of canopies. but thats me.

"your the shit till you eat it !!!!!!!! damn that wall hurts..."

[Allballs 0]

Just because you are a WORLD CHAMPION does not automatically make you a teacher Raymond!!

Just cause you got your hairdressing license doesnt mean your a great hairdresser!!! Get my pooint its all about experience, learning from others and much much time or as SDU puts it REPITITION.

[Allballs 0]

***
I can count on two fingers the number of world champion skydivers who have taught me anything about skydiving. One of those world champion skydivers is Rob Laidlaw.
Oh!
Wait a minute!
Isn't Rob Laidlaw the president of Skydive University?
__________________________________________________

Yes he is thats awesome...

[Kimsdu 0]

Raymond, I was not sure if you knew this but many world champion skydivers have taken the SDU coach course after they have become world champions because they want to perfect their teaching skills.
The list is endless check out the coach directory at www.skydiveu.com

I Actually i had a very long chat with a certain WC with over 12,000+ jumps and many championships under his belt just last month, He knows he is a phenomenal skydiver but lacks in the teaching field and was asking me, a measley coach for SDU and a non world champ for some tips.....He sat and took the course just 3 weeks ago and said it was great.
Not everybody is competition driven and wants to win medals, some people enjoy teaching and passing along knowledge.

[littlejohn 0]

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im one of those ppl that expects a certain standard for something if im paying for it, with that said if i wanted coaching in a discipline, then i want coached from a proven person. (in my eyes)

i agrre with raymond wholeheartedley if im gonna pay for somone to teach me they should really know their shit.

death before dishonor

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[GLIDEANGLE 1]

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as for coaching, charging someone $30 + a pack job is just bullshit for most coaches. ok you paid an assload for a course, that doesn't entitle you to charge ppl. i think covering your slot is reasonable but beyond that, your just ripping them off. any joe dick in the mud can teach ppl to move forward, backward, do turns, dock, ect. i think a person that teaches ppl how to backfly, freefly, ect, that has proven themselves to amoung the best (went to nationals and placed) should be the ppl that charge for coach jumps. but some person who just attended the basic course is just poo.

I am a STUDENT who is currently in the midst of SDU coaching. I can tell you that I am getting every penny's worth I am paying for my coach.

1. My coach spends a SIGNIFICANT amount of time with me in ground preps and post-jump debriefs. She deserves payment for that time.

2. My coach has excellent TEACHING skills and techniques.... I am a professional educator and I know good teaching when I see it.

3. My coach uses the SDU program as written, which means that my coaching is structured to develop skills sequentially... from simple to more complex. The muscle memory techniques make my brief and expensive air time much more efficient.

4. I don't really know how well my coach flies. I just know that she is effortlessly able to be where she needs to be with me. What her flying skills are beyond that is irrelevant to me. I need a good teacher... not a damned Eagle who might not be able to convey to me what she does.

5. My coach is VERY concerned that I learn to jump safely. She is quite willing to tell me that I am not doing things right. Doing so is not always easy or fun for her.... she earns her pay every day.

6. Lastly, my coach is patient. I would NEVER expect a poorly or unpaid coach to invest as much time in me as she has. I have been a slow learner at times and needed her patience.

I chose this DZ BECAUSE they had SDU. I had read about too many students getting off of AFF and then struggling to learn. SDU is working for me. Yes, it is expensive... but problably less expensive than struggling to learn to fly in an less structured environment with less effective coaching.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[livenletfly 0]

raymond you dont know what the f... you are talking about! just because a skydiver knows how to fly their body doesnt mean they can get through to a student and teach.
and why you feel its wrong to accept money to teach is beyond me! trust me most of us affI's and coaches do not teach for the money. we do it because we enjoy it and it helps subsidize this expensive sport. i give my students 100% in a positive and fun manner with great success, but it can be hard work with some students. why shouldnt i be paid the whopping 15 bucks!!!
if it was about the money id be doing tandems or shooting tandem video, but that doesnt mean i want to spend my whole weekend instructing for free. im there to blow off a hard weeks work and have fun with my freinds. because 15$ helps me do that i instruct 1/2 the time im at the dz and fun jump the other half.

being on a pro team dont mean shit to me as far as aff goes. i know many AMAZING instructors that are everyday joes. we derserve more credit and respect than your showing.

>

[livenletfly 0]

well spoken!!! its so good to hear a student that truly has appreciation for their instructor.
thank you

>

[popsjumper 2]

In the midst of all the arguing, here comes a post that is relevant to EVERY coach or instructor; It comes from a student.

Thank you for injecting some sense into all this mess.

You points are well-taken by at least one of us out here.

For all you who don't get it:
Doesn't matter where you get the rating or about your championships...it's all about what and how you are teaching the students.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[raymond_jones 0]

hey buddy if you feel you deserve 15 dollars to teach someone then thats your philosophy on it. no quams here. (id rather spend my money in a different way. like getting coached by someone on a pro team.)

and im sure you and the other average joes are AMAZING instructors.

as to deserving more credit and respect than im showing, well im really sorry but i can't help you in that department. credit and respect are things that are earned. not given because of what ratings,internet status, or what ever you claim to have on DZ.com. where i come from when someone is expressing their opinion on a subject, and another person desides they are going to respond to the conversation, weeks after it was done with by pms and e-mails, by telling a person with his own unique perception about a subject, that "you don't know what the F... you are talking about!!!" no respect or credit is given to said individual.

but to humor you, i will give you some credit. "congratulations!!!! after not even thinking about this thread for almost 3 weeks now, i get a call from a coach and instructor from my local DZ saying you have to read this guys post. should I bill your the 15 dollars or should i have him send it to you?"

"your the shit till you eat it !!!!!!!! damn that wall hurts..."