robinheid 0 #176 June 8, 2010 Quote Nonsense. Check back with me on that after you get a few more years time in grade. SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.) "The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sergant 0 #177 June 8, 2010 Sorry man but, Bob Holler tended land next to the packing area what is not recommended during big way events. (I was on that load) Anyway I agree with you 'shit happens'... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robinheid 0 #178 June 8, 2010 Quote Quote I said: "If you're flying right, no one should ever cut you off because you should see them coming from far enough away to not have to make a "panic" turn in the first place Neither Roger nor (as I understand it) Bob were cut off -- so their collisions are not relevant to this narrowly focused tangent within the larger thread about student and/or low-timer use of Stilettos. Please stay on-topic. You are claiming that you can "fly right" and be able to avoid having to do a turn to avoid a collision. BUT you are claiming that you can "fly right" and not be able to avoid a collision. Fail. I didn't claim Roger or Bob were flying right or state whether or not they could have avoided their collisions; you did. I have remained silent on those points because their collisions are not relevant to this narrowly focused tangent within the larger thread about student and/or low-timer use of Stilettos. Please stay on-topic. SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.) "The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #179 June 8, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote So I say again: If you're flying right, no one should ever cut you off because you should see them coming from far enough away to not have to make a "panic" turn in the first place. Unless they do something stupid at the last second that was unexpected and not avoidable. Then you're not flying right. Bullcrap. With all your bragging about how long you've been around the sport, you should DAMN well know that 'shit happens'. By your 'logic', since Roger Nelson was 'flying right', he should have seen the other guy 'coming from far enough away' to be able to avoid the collision. By your 'logic', since Bob Holler was 'flying right', he should have seen the other guy 'coming from far enough away' to be able to avoid the collision. Etc, etc, etc... Fail. Why, yes...yes you did. Quote The logic goes this way: Timmyfitz said low-time Stiletto pilot efs4life might make a "panic" turn if someone cut him off at the last moment. Logic fail. A panic turn is an attempt to avoid a collision. Quote I said: "If you're flying right, no one should ever cut you off because you should see them coming from far enough away to not have to make a "panic" turn in the first place." Neither Roger nor (as I understand it) Bob were cut off -- so their collisions are not relevant to this narrowly focused tangent within the larger thread about student and/or low-timer use of Stilettos. Since a panic turn is an attempt to avoid a collision, your supposed point is equally valid for the incidents that took Roger and Bob's lives. QED. Quote Please stay on-topic. Please quit stroking your own ego.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SethInMI 145 #180 June 8, 2010 Jesus Christ. It is like Speakers Corner in here, people trying to win points in a argument instead of just working toward clarity and consensus. Robin is saying "if you keep your head on a swivel, you can avoid being forced to make panic turns. Sure you can get hit from behind/above, but you won't ever see that coming, so no panic turn will result." This guarantee, "fly right/head on swivel and no panic turns will be required" does not address HP canopies. Here's a scenario: You are on final in your big boat canpy, correct direction, etc. You hear some whistling sound, look off to the right and suddenly here is Alice the Tool Swooper coming crosswind to low carve a landing. Alice does not see you. It is panic turn time.It's flare not flair, brakes not breaks, bridle not bridal, "could NOT care less" not "could care less". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robinheid 0 #181 June 8, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote So I say again: If you're flying right, no one should ever cut you off because you should see them coming from far enough away to not have to make a "panic" turn in the first place. Unless they do something stupid at the last second that was unexpected and not avoidable. Then you're not flying right. Bullcrap. With all your bragging about how long you've been around the sport, you should DAMN well know that 'shit happens'. By your 'logic', since Roger Nelson was 'flying right', he should have seen the other guy 'coming from far enough away' to be able to avoid the collision. By your 'logic', since Bob Holler was 'flying right', he should have seen the other guy 'coming from far enough away' to be able to avoid the collision. Etc, etc, etc... Fail. Why, yes...yes you did. Quote The logic goes this way: Timmyfitz said low-time Stiletto pilot efs4life might make a "panic" turn if someone cut him off at the last moment. Logic fail. A panic turn is an attempt to avoid a collision. Quote I said: "If you're flying right, no one should ever cut you off because you should see them coming from far enough away to not have to make a "panic" turn in the first place." Neither Roger nor (as I understand it) Bob were cut off -- so their collisions are not relevant to this narrowly focused tangent within the larger thread about student and/or low-timer use of Stilettos. Since a panic turn is an attempt to avoid a collision, your supposed point is equally valid for the incidents that took Roger and Bob's lives. QED. Quote Please stay on-topic. Please quit stroking your own ego. Sigh... As I understand it, neither Roger nor Bob saw their collisions coming, so no "panic" turn could be made, which means their collisions are not relevant to this narrowly focused tangent within the larger thread about student and/or low-timer use of Stilettos -- whether, in responding to seeing someone cut you off, you make a "panic" turn that could have more injurious consequences under a Stiletto than under a lower performance canopy perhaps better sutied to EFS4LIFE's skillset. Which, of course, is a valid point that Timmyfitz made, and with which I have no argument. Absolutely, the higher performance the canopy, the easier it is for any pilot, low- or high-time, to enter too much input during emergency maneuvering -- and it is more likely that a low-timer will "over-input" in that situation than a more experienced jumper. The thought behind my "flying right" comment is that, if you use good collision avoidance techniques throughout your descent, you should never end up in a situation where you have to "panic" turn to avoid someone that you see cut you off. Neither Roger nor Bob saw their collisions coming, so a "panic" turn was not part of the equation -- which, again, means their collisions are not relevant to this narrowly focused tangent within the larger thread about student and/or low-timer use of Stilettos. I am now officially done with this thread. It's been fun and there's been some good thinking and discussion, but now I must get back to the real world. Love to all, see you at the DZ. SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.) "The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #182 June 8, 2010 I've not seen anything in the accident statistics to persuade me that inexperienced jumpers are more likely to panic turn themselves into the ground than experienced jumpers.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #183 June 8, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote So I say again: If you're flying right, no one should ever cut you off because you should see them coming from far enough away to not have to make a "panic" turn in the first place. Unless they do something stupid at the last second that was unexpected and not avoidable. Then you're not flying right. Bullcrap. With all your bragging about how long you've been around the sport, you should DAMN well know that 'shit happens'. By your 'logic', since Roger Nelson was 'flying right', he should have seen the other guy 'coming from far enough away' to be able to avoid the collision. By your 'logic', since Bob Holler was 'flying right', he should have seen the other guy 'coming from far enough away' to be able to avoid the collision. Etc, etc, etc... Fail. Why, yes...yes you did. Quote The logic goes this way: Timmyfitz said low-time Stiletto pilot efs4life might make a "panic" turn if someone cut him off at the last moment. Logic fail. A panic turn is an attempt to avoid a collision. Quote I said: "If you're flying right, no one should ever cut you off because you should see them coming from far enough away to not have to make a "panic" turn in the first place." Neither Roger nor (as I understand it) Bob were cut off -- so their collisions are not relevant to this narrowly focused tangent within the larger thread about student and/or low-timer use of Stilettos. Since a panic turn is an attempt to avoid a collision, your supposed point is equally valid for the incidents that took Roger and Bob's lives. QED. Quote Please stay on-topic. Please quit stroking your own ego. Sigh... As I understand it, neither Roger nor Bob saw their collisions coming, so no "panic" turn could be made, which means their collisions are not relevant to this narrowly focused tangent within the larger thread about student and/or low-timer use of Stilettos -- whether, in responding to seeing someone cut you off, you make a "panic" turn that could have more injurious consequences under a Stiletto than under a lower performance canopy perhaps better sutied to EFS4LIFE's skillset. Which, of course, is a valid point that Timmyfitz made, and with which I have no argument. Absolutely, the higher performance the canopy, the easier it is for any pilot, low- or high-time, to enter too much input during emergency maneuvering -- and it is more likely that a low-timer will "over-input" in that situation than a more experienced jumper. The thought behind my "flying right" comment is that, if you use good collision avoidance techniques throughout your descent, you should never end up in a situation where you have to "panic" turn to avoid someone that you see cut you off. Neither Roger nor Bob saw their collisions coming, so a "panic" turn was not part of the equation -- which, again, means their collisions are not relevant to this narrowly focused tangent within the larger thread about student and/or low-timer use of Stilettos. I am now officially done with this thread. It's been fun and there's been some good thinking and discussion, but now I must get back to the real world. Love to all, see you at the DZ. Spin it any way you want but you are wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #184 June 8, 2010 Quote Quote Nonsense. Check back with me on that after you get a few more years time in grade. Sure, I've only been in the sport for 14 years - I know I'm still a baby. Likewise, you get back to me when you're in the real world. You cannot see everywhere at once. There is ALWAYS a blind spot as long as you dont have eyes that can see in every direction. IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobMoore 0 #185 June 8, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Nonsense. Check back with me on that after you get a few more years time in grade. Sure, I've only been in the sport for 14 years - I know I'm still a baby. Ian Ian, you're one of those 2,950 jump wonders. You don't get to have an opinion. "For you see, an airplane is an airplane. A landing area is a landing area. But a dropzone... a dropzone is the people." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 36 #186 June 8, 2010 It can be hard to spot everyone at times. A couple weeks ago I was doing video of a tandem out of a 182 with one fun jumper on the load. The tandem was way high, and I spotted the fun jumper right after opening and he was a long way away. I undid my wings, stowed my slider and such, and went to look for him again. Couldn't find him anywhere. I spent the next thousand feet looking for him. Finally found him - far closer than I would have liked (though not scary close by any means) after over a thousand feet of actively searching. And this was out of a C182 looking for only one other jumper. Last summer, our other full-time AFF JM had a brown and yellow canopy. That thing was practically invisible if she was below me in the Texas summer. I spent at least half of every canopy ride searching for her every jump before I could spot that canopy.. That's a large portion of the reason I like bright colored canopies.. Blue ones can be invisible above, brown/green/black ones invisible below... We never had any issues, but the possibility is always there.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #187 June 8, 2010 Quote We never had any issues, but the possibility is always there.. Yep Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #188 June 9, 2010 Quote Quote Nonsense. Check back with me on that after you get a few more years time in grade. Really? How about you check back when ever any of your experience is CURRENT.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d123 1 #189 June 9, 2010 What about black color on top skin. Mine is like that and I've thought it's easy to spot and such!Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 36 #190 June 9, 2010 Ask your fellow jumpers! Probably depends on your local scenery - ask your friends you jump with how easy it is to spot your canopy... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #191 June 9, 2010 QuoteWhat about black color on top skin. Mine is like that and I've thought it's easy to spot and such! The B2 (Stealth) Bomber is black. Does that suggest anything to you? If the military wants people to see their aircraft (like rescue helicopters) they tend to paint them orange.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #192 June 9, 2010 QuoteQuoteWhat about black color on top skin. Mine is like that and I've thought it's easy to spot and such! The B2 (Stealth) Bomber is black. Does that suggest anything to you? Still, one has to distinguish between the types of conditions and ranges where one wants to see things. After all, the Brits very carefully chose a high gloss BLACK for their BAE Hawk jets in training use, for HIGH VISIBILITY. I'm only commenting on what might be an overgeneralized comparison, not the specifics of a particular colour in a skydiving environment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d123 1 #193 June 9, 2010 Never knew why the B2 black Bomber was called Stealth. Shit! I've made a bad choice, fuck!Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #194 June 9, 2010 QuoteThe thought behind my "flying right" comment is that, if you use good collision avoidance techniques throughout your descent, you should never end up in a situation where you have to "panic" turn to avoid someone that you see cut you off. I suspect the real issue is your use of "NEVER end up in a situation where...." Other than that, of course your comments are very correct - stay aware, etc ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #195 June 9, 2010 no matter how people try to turn it, a Stiletto is NOT a student canopy, whatever the WL would be. Like a Porsche is not a good car to start learning to drive, even if it has flat tyres.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #196 June 9, 2010 Quoteno matter how people try to turn it, a Stiletto is NOT a student canopy, whatever the WL would be. Like a Porsche is not a good car to start learning to drive, even if it has flat tyres. My position too - fully elliptical is a bad choice for students and newbies (and many experienced jumpers IMO) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #197 June 9, 2010 QuoteMy position too - fully elliptical is a bad choice for students and newbies (and many experienced jumpers IMO) What, in your view, indicates that a jumper is ready for an elliptical?"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #198 June 9, 2010 QuoteWhat, in your view, indicates that a jumper is ready for an elliptical? Mad skillz, a cocky attitude, a feeling that he gets it but no one really understands that or just wants to hold him back, a hot girlfriend (or pretensions to have one) alternate answer - he has as many jumps as me minus 1 real answer - (I don't push it, I like a good surf, but I don't do swooping to any real degree, nor have a desire to - I have a Stiletto 120, wl 1.7, I like the openings, glide ratio and in air dynamics, the landings are fun, but no issue off DZ, etc......) anyway, probably a progression of a minimum number of skills demonstrated (more than a few times each) on an equivalently sized semi-e canopy. Plus having really turned out all that he can get on the prior canopy rather than just downsizing and switching on whim. An understanding that choosing that canopy should be based on landing in the worst conditions, not ideal conditions. But, in the end, (in my world), it's a free country to own and risk in any way you desire. So if someone wants to do it, then that's their business but if they screw up they OWN it. I don't want to pay for their medical bills, or see them requesting help or donations for same, I don't want to see them blame or sue others for their mistakes, etc etc etc. Nor do I care for them making 'excuses' when they do stupid stuff in general. It gets old watching a 'certain' type of newbie get carted off in neck braces and splints just because they thought they were such a big deal and didn't get that validation in this sport. Skydivers aren't really easily impressed, so taking up skydiving to shore up a soft ego is a stupid choice. It's a fun and challenging sport(s) - no more, no less. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #199 June 9, 2010 Jumpnaked69, You are so my dorkzone hero! You started a thread asking a serious question about the ability for students to progress to a sporty canopy sooner with the proper education and dedicated instructors 4 YEARS AGO. And the thread turned into 200 posts of the same old debate about ellipticals and experience, reborn yearly for 4 years. I award you the dorkzone-hero award for trying to get a new conversation started that reverts back to the same old crap. See attached! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d123 1 #200 June 9, 2010 > What, in your view, indicates that a jumper is ready for an elliptical? Logical answer: when PD recommends it Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
