Stilleto as a Student Canopy

[flipper 0]

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Why Stiletto? Couldn't you find a Velocity, VX or JVX?

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Those canopies did not have the characteristics I wanted in my canopy. Mainly FLAT GLIDE.

Did you try a Pulse 190.. Flat Glide and recovers quickly also a closer match to your skill level / jump numbers

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[timmyfitz 0]

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if you're flying right, no one should ever cut you off because you should see them coming from far enough away to not have to make a "panic" turn in the first place;

If I'm "flying right" then I should have very little concern about other people that may cut me off at the last few seconds before landing, even though I saw them from far away? How did that work out for Roger, who was "flying right".

as i recall, the subject was doing a "panic' turn to avoid someone cutting you off -- and as i also recall, roger was hit from above and behind so a possible "panic" turn was not in play and so that particular collision is not relevant to the point you raised. Try again.

Your response to me was

"if you're flying right, no one should ever cut you off".

I just pointed out that you can fly right(Roger), see people coming from far away and shit can still happen at the last second that is out of your control.

Try again.

(a canopy can not stay fully inflated after it has been cutaway)

[pchapman 261]

Hey EFS,

1)
So how do you find that tendency of a Stiletto to "over" turn, to gradually stop turning after you stop giving an input, instead of coming right out on heading very soon after releasing input?

That's one of the characteristics of Stilettos that can be disconcerting to people new to them. How much of that behaviour do you find at 1:1?

2)
How about the issue of "twisting yourself up", self inducing line twists when doing too sudden turns.

The Stiletto, with its quick turning and short recovery arc is a canopy where one is more likely to do that -- especially when the canopy is new and cool to someone and you want to whip it around the sky.

What tendency to do that have you found? Have you gotten appropriate training to learn about and avoid that?

3)
I wonder how likely the lightly loaded Stiletto is to spin up on opening, even if the light loading may help avoid the canopy then starting to spiral. It is more difficult for novices to deploy with a really good stable shoulders level body position. (This explains why jumpers may have all sorts of spinetto problems early on while jumping them, but magically it becomes far less likely after they get more experience on the canopy.) Training in that area would be really good for you to have too.

There aren't many Stiletto 190s out there...

[EFS4LIFE 0]

Davelepka- As earlier stated FLAT turn. Thanks for not addressing the fact that I stated a panic toggle turn on any canopy can kill you, very big of you. As far as the Stiletto's flight characteristics you pointed out how freaking hard is it to give a tiny amount of opposite toggle so the turn stops just where you want it? I learned that characteristic on my first jump with it. Yesterday I had to perform one as someone did get too close for my comfort on final. Guess what I am still here. To initiate a PANIC first you have to PANIC. Now maybe I am just not "average" (not this argument again please) but I don't panic easy. Maybe it's the combat expereince, my current profession as a police officer, or maybe the excellent training I have recieved at a small family DZ where my instructor has the time to devote to me, or the canopy course I attended. I am willing to bet it is a combination of all of those things. I understand most think at my 120 jumps I am not competent to fly this canopy. I also know none of u know my skill level (other than by jump numbers, which does not tell the whole story, and if you think it does you are not good instructors IMHO) I do not need any of your approval to fly this canopy, thank God. I just need my instructors and I have it.

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[wmw999 2,123]

You're not going to get folks to agree with you. The only thing you can do is to be a good example, and not hurt yourself on your canopy. Figure out what it is that makes it good for students like you, become an instructor and a mentor when the time is right and you have enough experience.

While experience isn't everything, it does count in this sport, particularly if you use it wisely, and internalize the lessons. Once internalized, they're part of your automatic reaction system, rather than something you have to figure out. Having to figure something out realtime in skydiving sucks -- if you figured wrong, you're still that many seconds later, and stuff has continued to happen.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 1,625]

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Hey EFS,

1)
So how do you find that tendency of a Stiletto to "over" turn, to gradually stop turning after you stop giving an input, instead of coming right out on heading very soon after releasing input?

That's one of the characteristics of Stilettos that can be disconcerting to people new to them. How much of that behaviour do you find at 1:1?

.

Wasn't disconcerting to me when I first jumped one. Same behavior as most airplanes and all gliders; it was pretty much what I expected.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[DocPop 1]

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Kudos to you DocPop. The people I watch out for the most are the new to mid-skilled jumpers that seem to deny, debate, and sometimes outright argue with the advice of the truly skilled veterans.

One of the coolest things about being in a sport with such small numbers is that not only do we get constant free regular advice from, but we also get to regularly jump with such incredibly skilled veterans. It's like being a sandlot baseball player and having people like Derek Jeter regularly show up to play a little second base, and offer tons of free coaching to boot. AMAZING!

Thanks dude! Just this weekend I did the Flight-1 Essential Skills and Advanced Skills courses with one of the PDFT pilots. It is just awesome to be able to get coaching from that level of pilot.

This was my third (and fourth, if you count it as 2 courses) canopy course in my short skydiving career and I really think that some sort of canopy training should be part of the B license requirements. Maybe that would go some way towards addressing the fatality statistics and it might also show some other low-time jumps just how much there is to be learned on any one canopy.

Thanks for answering about why you like the ST. I guess it's all personal preference and it certainly seems like there's a big place for the ST in skydiving.

Back to the OP - I have not jumped one, but from what I know of canopy flight characteristics and the way students fly, I don't think the ST is a good choice for inexperienced hands. Mistakes will be made (I know I have made mine, and been lucky) and a forgiving wing goes a long way towards keeping people out of the ER/mortuary.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[d123 1]

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Hey EFS,

1)
So how do you find that tendency of a Stiletto to "over" turn, to gradually stop turning after you stop giving an input, instead of coming right out on heading very soon after releasing input?

That's one of the characteristics of Stilettos that can be disconcerting to people new to them. How much of that behaviour do you find at 1:1?

.

Wasn't disconcerting to me when I first jumped one. Same behavior as most airplanes and all gliders; it was pretty much what I expected.

clicky
clicky

clicky

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[EFS4LIFE 0]

pcchapman, On oversteer, I don't find it concerning much actually. I was told about this characteristic before flying it, but honestly I had to pay real close attention to notice it at 1 to 1. I guess it might be more noticeable as the wingloading increases or if it is a smaller size. I think I just learned to release my input a hair earlier than my desired heading. I have gotten quite use to the recovery and have no problem putting my canopy on the exact heading I want, even after doing multiple 360's when my toes get tingly :) I love it.

On openings, Yes I have learned bad body position will cause you to open in line twist. As I stated earlier this is a skill that I am learning now much sooner than many. However that being said I have made that mistake putting myself into about 5 twist and at this size and loading the canopy kept flying straight. No diving. I kicked out easily. Like I said a lightly loaded large Stiletto is a TON tamer than the small highly loaded ones. That opening I gave myself (not blaming pack job!) I knew when I deployed, oops I just dipped my shoulder. I knew I was going to be in twist before I had any, because I knew my mistake. If I had made that mistake on a smaller higher loaded one I would have had a cutaway for sure.

Third, O\on the spinning yourself into line twist. Lol I learned that lesson on student status with a PD 260! I was told by an "experienced" jumper that at that size and wingloading I could crank that toggle all the way down and hold it there for as long as I wanted and nothing would happen. LMAO well I tried and spun myself into twist and half the canopy collapsed. I did it at 4k so I was safe, but yeah learned there are limits, even on a huge student canopy. With the Stiletto my first 5 jumps were high altitude hop and pops. I learned the limits up high. I pushed it, but knew to back off when I felt it going. I also discovered where the stall point is. When I am whipping my canopy around now I just make sure when I come out of a 360 to allow the canopy to recover fully first. I wait until I have swung back underneath of it until I turn hard the opposite way. As that is the easiest way to put myself into a very bad situation.

My instructor flies a Velo 96, but even he prefers the Stiletto up in the air, he flies the Velo for the landings. He says that the flare on landings on the Stiletto usually requires a lot of adjustments, and can be different on every jump where as the Velo is pretty consistant. I have found that to be true (lol well the Stiletto part, I have NO experience with a Velo OBVIOUSLY!), but I don't mind the adjusting I guess. I love how much flare power you can get out of it, especially at the bottom end. Only around 30 or something jumps on it now so I am still learning it (I will be for a VERY long time) but i love it. I think that canopy will be along for a very long time, hell it already is considered outdated by some, but nothing else flies quite like it from what I have been told.

Oh yeah and I don't care if "folks agree with me" I just felt compelled to say my side. I love it, and I feel safe at this wingloading. I give ya a big I told you so when I have a thousand jumps or whatever under my belt and never got hurt on it. Of course then you will counter with it was dumb luck! Ah gotta love it. Look I could get hurt under ANY canopy. I do not feel that I am increasing the odds by flying a ST 190 over a Sabre2 190. I hate the steepness of that canopy. So what we dsagree, wecan still be friends

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[Ron 7]

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I know new ideas are hard to accept. It's okay. It will really be okay. You can be in denial all you want, but if you think NO jumper with my experience could possibly fly a Stiletto 190 at 1.1 safely then you are sadly closed minded, and I seriously doubt your expereince [SIC] on that canopy with that wingloading.

I know established ideas are hard to accept. It's okay. It will really be okay. You can be in denial all you want, but if you think a jumper with your experience could possibly fly a Stiletto 190 at 1.1 safely then your ego is bigger than it should be, and I seriously doubt your experience on that canopy with that wingloading.

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Maybe they have updated the newer Stilettos

We have now reached the "grasping at straws" section of the program.

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My goal was never to get you SKYGODS' approval.

Skygod is an attitude that you know better than everyone else..... You are showing that attitude more than anyone else here.

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If most of you are to stubborn to open that head, and consider something other than what you were spoon fed growing up in this sport than I feel bad for you, but there is nothing I can do about it.

And you are too stubborn to realize that no one is out to get you and we have heard this same spiel from other 100 jump wonders. They too thought they were better than their jump numbers indicated. I have personally held several of them together while we waited for the ambulance to take them away.

Funny thing is.... If you last in this sport, one day you will find a 100 jump wonder totally ignoring your advice. He will have a big attitude and claim to know better than you and insult you.

Then you will find all this funny.

You ignored PD, you have ignored Brian's recommendations.... Yes, you are gonna claim Brian said you would be fine. That is only because Brian is trying to get you to listen a little and if he tells you that you will be fine *IF*, he is hoping you will listen to the IF. And he knows a guy like you will ignore anyone that does not coddle you and stroke your ego.
But his written recommendations clearly spell out no fully ellipticals till 300 jumps and you have ignored that.

I hope you don't get hurt. I also hope you drop the attitude and the ego.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[EFS4LIFE 0]

Oh ok Ron I guess everyone else and me can still be friends. Lol I have TOO BIG of an ego for your tastes. No problem.

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[davelepka 4]

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I know new ideas are hard to accept. It's okay. It will really be okay. You can be in denial all you want, but if you think NO jumper with my experience could possibly fly a Stiletto 190 at 1.1 safely then you are sadly closed minded, and I seriously doubt your expereince on that canopy with that wingloading.

As a brief side note- I read this post an hour ago right after you replied to me, and after thinking about it, I thought that the above portion was the key point I wanted to address, as I thought it was the most telling. In that hour, I see that Ron has posted a reply, and also selected the same portion to focus on, and I have to tell you that when two people independently choose the same portion to reply to, that might be telling in itself.

That said, I think one point your missing is that you learn canopies from bigger to smaller, not the other way around. Your experiecnes on the St 190 just slower, watered down versions of the same thing I expereinced in my 1000's (literally 1000's) of jumps on Stilettos from 97 to 150sq ft, and wl from 2.0+ to 1.3. There's nothing going on between you and that canopy that I haven't expereicned tenfold, and to a higher degree of speed and sensitivity.

I'm not sure why you think there is anything new going on here. The canopy was designed alomsot 20 years ago, and for the better part of that 20 years there have been jumpers pushing the limits with them with varying degrees of success. You're not new or special and the canopy isn't either.

The real bitch about canopies is that only find out if you made the right choice when you start flying a different one. Did you survive the first? Then you made the right choice. Didn't make it, well....

As for Kallend, who is the guy who seems to be on your side with this issue, yes he did start flying a Stiletto early on, and it worked out well for him. I may be wrong on some of these facts, but consider that by the time Kallend starting jumping he was a college physics professor, an accomplished pilot, and pushing 50 years old. Since that time, he has gone on to participate in several world records and other high profile jumps in various disciplines. The idea is that John Kallend turned out to be a talented jumper who 'gets it'.

I don't even know John personally, but I can tell you that you sir are no John Kallend, and it would be wise not to hold yourself to his standard.

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To initiate a PANIC first you have to PANIC. Now maybe I am just not "average" (not this argument again please) but I don't panic easy. Maybe it's the combat expereince, my current profession as a police officer,

Just for reference, I had the privledge last summer to do some AFF jumps with a student who has expereince in both of those fields well beyond what you could possibly have. This man was a pilot in Vietnam who survived several tours flying jets and helos, was shot down and survived several times, and spent some time as a POW.

He returned to the states and went into law enforcement where he was highly decorated and partnered with what the local news described as a 'supercop'.

In fact, the week before his first jump, he was transporting the police helo to a shop for maintenence when the engine failed, and he simply auto-rotated it into a backayrd with zero damage to the ship or any private property.

Fast forawrd to the jumps, and in short, they did not go well. Freefall was not the place for him, and despite our best efforts, it didn't get any better. To his credit, he was smart enough to realize that despite his accomplishments and uncanny ability to survive, that skydving was not for him.

Don't think that one thing makes you ready for the other. I am a highly skilled, and very confident skydiver, and the one thing it has taught me about life is how much time and effort it takes to reach such a level, and the same way I would suggest that a newbie approach skydiving is the same way that I now approach any new venture I embark upon. I'm a hero on the DZ, and just an amateur everywhere else.

[Ron 7]

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Oh ok Ron I guess everyone else and me can still be friends. Lol I have TOO BIG of an ego for your tastes. No problem.

The problem is you may have too big of an ego for your skill set.

Dave said it best..... Most are smart enough to know that skills from one area of life does not translate to another. I am not sure you are able to do that, and your postings don't seem to support that.

I had a buddy... Infantryman, Cop, GREAT soccer player, and a tunnel rat that had some amazing air skills (better than me). Notice I said "had"? He was a bad ass in so many areas... Till he had his first mal around 1k jumps and rode it to the ground.

I had another buddy.... Airline captain that could fly a 747 around the world (and had). He got a new canopy and twisted it up at about 600 feet and died. This one bothered me since I was doing CPR on him when the medics pulled me off to state he was gone.

I could go on.....

It is not your canopy selection... It is the attitude that you are supporting your selection with. The fact you are ignoring PD (120 pound jumper INT exp) and Brian (no ellipticals with less than 300 jumps) makes it hard for me to believe you are really listening to anyone. Or more accurately that you are only listening when someone tells you what you want to hear.

BillV had a list of traits that people that got hurt under canopy all had.... You seem to be using it as a checklist.

I hope I am wrong... I have seen enough people carted off the DZ. I have attended enough funerals due to ego.

I hope you don't get hurt.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[EFS4LIFE 0]

Dave

So you don't know John, and you don't know me but you know I am no where near as good as he was when he was at where I am in my skydiving career? Hmmm that sounds like a Bushism. LMAO. You basically just said you don't know anything about him personally, and you obviously don't know me, but somehow you claim to know how to compare us two. Did you think before you posted that?

As for your comparison to that chopper pilot cop. Just because he was not a good skydiver doesn't mean that I am not as well. First off let me tell you that you have NO fucking idea about my EXPEREINCE in combat. You don't know what I went through, saw, was a part of, or anything. So don't assume anything about something you know nothing about. I dont assume just because of those experiences I am some budding skygod who is the greatest thing to happen to this sport since the three ring release. At the same time those experiences have benifited me in life, period. I use them as a tool. I enternalize them. I remember them. I use them to better myself. Jumping out of an airplane is boring compared to getting shot at or having some one try to blow you up withan IED. Go try it for yourself. Get some expereince with THAT and then come tell me it doesn't help me remain calm in stressful situations, or make the right call under pressure with your life on the line. Because they do. That or you can't handle it and you find out you can't remain calm and make those decisions under that pressure. I assure you I have, so don't act like you know me or assume I was some REMF who didn't see shit. Do you know what a COLT platoon is? Oh what the hell am I wasting my time for. Your whole last post was garbage. You assumed a lot about things that by your own admittance or by obvious facts, you know nothing about.

I don't know if Kelland is on my side or not, but if he is and he is so accomplished then wouldn't you listen to what he thought? I mean this whole time I have been hearing listen to me I have umpteen thousand jumps blah blah and you won'tlisten to one of your own that is so accomplished? Hmmm.

Your atitudes are what turn me off. The only way you know how to get a point accross is by self glorifying your expereince with your jump numbers, etc. Instead take some of the advice of good teachers who reach out and actually teach. I am all ears then. But for now I take what you have to say with a grain of salt.

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[EFS4LIFE 0]

Actually I had a long conversation with PD before getting the damn canopy. I told them what I wanted in my canopy. Specifically that I wanted to be able to use front risers and harness input WITHOUT downsizing. I talked to them for a long time. They did RECOMEND the Stiletto. They knew my experience level. The knew my exit weight. Hmmm. Look in Paragear catalog at Stiletto 190 INT max 219 Hell Novice 181. Maybe this is a misprint by Paragear. Maybe the PD website hasn't been updated. Who knows but I promise you PD's recomendations HAVE changed on the Stiletto. Just read their add on it "With improvements in canopy control technique over the years the Stiletto has now become a very popular choice for many experienced jumpers." Better yet call PD talk to them. They used to not recomend anyone jump one without 500 jumps back in the day. They have changed their tune now. So have many others. Go on their website and read "Choosing the canopy" read it in it's entirety, don't skip the part about flying an elliptical in your same current size BEFORE downsizing. Listen we disagree so be it. I really don't care anymore. I don't have to justify anything to people who don't even know me or my skills but assume to do both.

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[diablopilot 2]

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ou still have a math problem, though; both Kallend and I are people to whom the young guy can look for verification and validation of his (canopy size and training choices) and last time I checked, 1 + 1 = 2.

Except that neither of you has paid your dues in this area. John isn't a skydiving instructor, and neither of you has the CURRENT experience under the multitude canopy designs and loadings that I would consider needed to advise this jumper on the sensibility of his choice, ESPECIALLY given the lack of first hand knowledge of the situation.

MY assessment of this thread is influenced by my desire to not keep having to drag broken novices from the landing area.

Flame away.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[jlmiracle 7]

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Oh yeah one last thing "RON" just because I can't help myself. You said "mutually inclusive" or some other term where you tried to sound very smart about how I think I am better than someone with twice my jump numbers. Let me pose an "inquiry" (so I can sound all smart myself) what if that jumper with 300 jumps has them spread out over a 4 year period when I have my 115 in 10 months? Does he really have twice my experience? Do you believe in CURRENCY? Stop trying to cookie cutter shit by jump numbers because you have a high number of them. It isn't a black an white thing brother.

Are you dead yet? If not, i want a spot on the bounce bingo board!

Not sure WHY you posted on here, since you obviously have made up your mind that you have mad skills and don't want to and don't care to listen to the responses to your question.

You started on the defensive and wonder why you have received the reponses you have?

What dz do I send my $5 to?

j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[diablopilot 2]

I'll put even money it's just Robin with an alias.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[jlmiracle 7]

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I'll put even money it's just Robin with an alias.

UGGG! Can I just put my $5.00 on him instead?

j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[d123 1]

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I'll put even money it's just Robin with an alias.

That could be true man. Do you think that eventually, he's going to make up a story how this alter ego died?
Fucking awesome idea!!!! Great job Ron! I like him more!

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[davelepka 4]

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Dave

So you don't know John, and you don't know me but you know I am no where near as good as he was when he was at where I am in my skydiving career? Hmmm that sounds like a Bushism. LMAO. You basically just said you don't know anything about him personally, and you obviously don't know me, but somehow you claim to know how to compare us two. Did you think before you posted that?

Indeed I did.

If you look at a jumper like Kallend, it's easy to see that whatever it is that makes a person a good fit for skydiving, he has it. I say this based on the fact that he has PROVEN himself in the skydiving world over the course of many years and many accomplishments.

It stands to reason that for a person to successfully follow Kallends learning progression, they would also have to poses that 'x' factor that makes a person a good fit for skydiving. Without being sure that you poses that quality (keeping in mind that the only way to be sure is to achieve and accomplish in the sport) would be foolhardy.

I would address that assertion to you and every other new jumper out there, regardless of my knowledge of them or their abilities. If you want to pattern yourself after a jumper, look for a more 'average' Joe, as in your early days of jumping you have no way of knowing if you are anything more than that.

One point I think you may be missing is that so little of skydiving is a physical activity. Yes, avoiding a collision is a physical reflex action, but the real avoidance manuver is not putting yourself in that position. Making good choices that will keep you from having to save your own life are the real skydiving skills you should be trying to cultivate.

It's not combat. People are not trying to kill you, and you don't have to face undue danger to stay alive. You can use your mind to protect yourself before you even board the plane so the shit never even comes close to hitting the fan. Equipment choice is a bag part of that, what you do with that equipment is another.

[robinheid 0]

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if you're flying right, no one should ever cut you off because you should see them coming from far enough away to not have to make a "panic" turn in the first place;

If I'm "flying right" then I should have very little concern about other people that may cut me off at the last few seconds before landing, even though I saw them from far away? How did that work out for Roger, who was "flying right".

as i recall, the subject was doing a "panic' turn to avoid someone cutting you off -- and as i also recall, roger was hit from above and behind so a possible "panic" turn was not in play and so that particular collision is not relevant to the point you raised. Try again.

Your response to me was

"if you're flying right, no one should ever cut you off".

I just pointed out that you can fly right(Roger), see people coming from far away and shit can still happen at the last second that is out of your control.

Try again.

(a canopy can not stay fully inflated after it has been cutaway)

Roger was not cut off.

Roger didn't see it coming.

Ergo, his collision doesn't fall within the parameters of either my "flying right" comment OR the point you're trying to make about a "panic" turn to avoid someone you can see, who cut you off.

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[EFS4LIFE 0]

Hey jlmiracle I never asked a question dumbass. Reread the entire thread. When did I ask a question? I just stated that I am a lower jump number guy who jumps a Stiletto, being that the OP was about the Stiletto as a student canopy. Just as I thought I got jumped on because of my canopy choice by chest puffers with xxxx jumps that think only their opinion is the right one.

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[billvon 2,400]

>Those canopies did not have the characteristics I wanted in my canopy.
>Mainly FLAT GLIDE.

Flat glide is an issue when combined with light loading. You get much greater susceptibility to turbulence. Paragliders have similar issues; frontal collapses are a lot more common, and teaching how to recover from a frontal collapse is an important part of paraglider curriculums.

Paragliders often spend a lot of time above 1000 feet, so they have more time to recover from such things. We have a lot less.

[EFS4LIFE 0]

You know what you all right, I am going to die. There is no way I can handle a Stiletto 190 at 1 to 1. What was I thinking these past 30 jumps? I am lucky to be alive. You know what this skydiving shit is dangerous. Hell I could do everything right and still die. Screw it I quit. I am never jumping again.

NOT!!!

Pretty classy about the bounce statement. Nice touch. Is that all you come up with? LOL now you guys resort to telling me I am going to die. Pathetic.

I am an asshole, but I am honest