Stilleto as a Student Canopy

[Ron 7]

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Do you mean dead man walking?

I prefer DGIT.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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Even so, I believe this is an individual sport where you set your own risk level. If you know its more dangerous and still want to do it, thats your perogative. Nobody should call him an idiot for jumping the Stilleto. Remember, this sport is all about safety second!

Unless that person happens to collide with me and kill me while he exercises his right to be cool.

I think people are free do do pretty much as they please.... Until they affect someone else. If some guy with 100 jumps wants a ST97 and they are jumping their own plane on their own property alone.... Have a great time!

But put a guy that is above his head in an otter with 20 other people and the story changes.

I am not too worried about a guy killing himself (well, I actually am... But people have the right to be stupid). I AM worried about someone killing someone else.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/fatalities/search.cgi?fatal_category=Collision

There are a bunch of people that are dead due to someone else's mistake.

Off the top of my head, I have lost three friends to canopy collisions.

I'd hate to die cause someone wanted to be cool.
I hate going to funerals because someone wanted to be cool.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 1,625]

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If you really believe that, ring up PD, tell them your experience level, and see if they'll sell you a Stiletto 190

He claims he did just that. Of course, more experienced jumpers have hard time believing that because PD has a reputation of being conservative with their demos, and would not send a Stiletto of any size to a guy with 100 jumps.

See post 206 of this thread, where the guy who works for PD seems to indicate that EFS4LIFE was less than truthful when dealing with PD.

I had no problems getting a new Stiletto 150 when I had 39 jumps.

Just sayin'.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[EFS4LIFE 0]

Jesus guys I am taking your advice. I will resurrect the thread in a couple years at 500 jumps. Why are you still all talking about it? I will still jump my Stiletto until then. Don't like it? I DON'T CARE.

Ian the guy from PD who thinks I am a liar must be an idiot because if he works for PD then he would know that they actually have only one ST 190 in the demo program and currently it is in my container. All he would have to do is go talk to alex (i think that was his name, maybe adam, something with an A) who is in charge of the demo program and find out.

The Stiletto in the larger sizes they now produce are not the same as a smaller highly wingloaded ones. Christ want to test it? Demo one. If you can wingload a ST at 1 to 1 in a 190 go for it. Make several jumps on one and then post. Until then no matter how much experience you have it is not relative is it?

I have 43 jumps on it now. I think that has given me plenty of experience to talk about it's characteristics. I have thrown myself into wicked line twist by using bad body position. I didn't have a cutaway. Even if I had to I DO know my emergency procedures. As far as a canopy collision are you serious? I am a competent enough pilot to not put myself in that position, and anyone with 130 jumps freaking should be or I don't want to jump with them. I think that RobinHeid's post about flying right did have some merit no matter how much you rip him on it. I have never not stood up a landing on it. EVER. I have landed downwind, crosswind, in no wind, heavy wind, and guess what? Not even a grass stain.

The comment about the Sabre2. Well you obviously did not read my post about the steep glides. I DO NOT feel comfortable on a steep glide. I feel rushed. I am coming down faster, and have LESS decision time. You want jumpers in the air feeling uncomfortable? That's smart! That is where the shit happens like PANIC turns.

Don't like my attitude because I am not "listening" fine you don't know me, and I don't know you. I urge anyone to take what they hear on the internet with a grain of salt. Listen to your instructors, not the skygods on dorkzone. Despite what has been posted I am not looking for some approval. I already have it from the only people who matter, my instructors at my DZ. I feel funny saying my instructors, because I am no longer a student at 130 jumps, a B license, and a coach rating, but as long as I am still learning from them I will continue to call them that, because that is what they are. I never asked for your approval, so stop acting like I did. I was just posting my opinion.

I "listen" a lot better in person I guess, but it is funny the people that know me and have seen me fly have never called me stupid or criticized my canopy choice. People with thousands of skydives. Maybe I am "above average" but I don't think of myself that way. Nothing has come easy for me. I have trained my butt off, and worked on everything very hard. Every opportunity I get I am at the DZ packing and jumping my ass off. Hell it has caused problems with my girlfriend because of my devotion to this sport. 130 jumps in 11 months may not seem like a whole lot until you take into account that I have to work every other weekend. My numbers would be double if I had a 9 to 5.

I never said any jumper with 100 jumps should or even could fly a Stiletto. I am just saying that a jumper who has shown the capacity to not pull low, flies conservatively, and maybe has the experience of making a low turn under a more forgiving canopy and was lucky enough to walk away from it and learn his lesson can safely fly one. I stand by the statement that is can be a good choice to try an elliptical in the same size and wingloading BEFORE downsizing. Ian that is on your company's website as well, what do you have to say about that statement? I am liar though right? I would rather have a jumper learn to fly an elliptical on a larger more forgiving size then downsize a few sizes, then jump on one thinking he is the shit, and get himself hurt. I know I am not "the shit" and I have a DEEP respect for the canopy I am flying.

Hey skygods let this post die, please. I will talk to you all in a couple years at the prescribed 500 jumps. Of course then it will be "dumb luck" that I didn't get myself hurt or killed, and you will still refute my experience and testimony so it doesn't matter... but I will still be the one who won't listen.

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[AggieDave 6]

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Listen to your instructors, not the skygods on dorkzone.

You know, a couple of those "skygods on dorkzone" that you're referring to are world class competitive canopy pilots. A couple more are nationally known and well regarded instructors. Quite a few more are simply well regarded canopy pilots, instructor and/or S&TAs. All in all, to a one, they simply doesn't want to see another preventable death occur!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[rehmwa 2]

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Hey skygods let this post die, please.

no activity for 3 days until you posted this rant

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[EFS4LIFE 0]

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no activity for 3 days until you posted this rant

Sorry I was busy at the DZ skydiving. See you all were too busy on here to get any jumping in though.

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[Ron 7]

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Ian the guy from PD who thinks I am a liar must be an idiot

Uh, Ian is on the swoop team for PD. Honestly, he knows more about canopy flight than most every will. Pretty much not an idiot.

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I have thrown myself into wicked line twist by using bad body position. I didn't have a cutaway.

This time you didn't. That does not mean next time will have the same result.

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Even if I had to I DO know my emergency procedures.

You can claim that... But until you actually land with both handles it is just a claim. Lots of people have claimed to know them... Yet the incident reports say all those people were not correct.

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As far as a canopy collision are you serious? I am a competent enough pilot to not put myself in that position,

Better skydivers than you have gotten hit and hit others.

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I have never not stood up a landing on it. EVER. I have landed downwind, crosswind, in no wind, heavy wind, and guess what? Not even a grass stain.

That does not mean it will never happen.

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I never asked for your approval, so stop acting like I did.

Your continuing to try and prove your point says otherwise.

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Hey skygods let this post die, please. I will talk to you all in a couple years at the prescribed 500 jumps. Of course then it will be "dumb luck" that I didn't get myself hurt or killed, and you will still refute my experience and testimony so it doesn't matter... but I will still be the one who won't listen.

That comment screams "I know more than you. You are all idiots".

YOU are the one that can let this post die.... Just quit typing and it will drift far away into the back pages. And it will only be brought back if you bring it up, or get hurt under canopy.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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Sorry I was busy at the DZ skydiving. See you all were too busy on here to get any jumping in though.

I am betting he made more jumps than you this weekend.

Personally, I flew about 4 hours in the wind tunnel.

And his comment was that the thread HAD died for 4 days till YOU posted your rant.

YOU brought the topic back.... ONLY YOU.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,400]

>Don't like it? I DON'T CARE.

The amount of energy you put into posting about it indicates you seem to care a great deal. Now just put some of that caring into learning instead of defense and you'll come out way ahead.

>If you can wingload a ST at 1 to 1 in a 190 go for it. Make several
>jumps on one and then post.

I have.

>Ian the guy from PD who thinks I am a liar must be an idiot . . .

If you consider people like Ian idiots, then there's really not many people you'd consider learning from, I am guessing.

>The comment about the Sabre2. Well you obviously did not read my
>post about the steep glides. I DO NOT feel comfortable on a steep glide.

Then get a bigger canopy, and learn on it until you do feel competent on it.

>You want jumpers in the air feeling uncomfortable?

Personally I'd rather have jumpers "feeling uncomfortable" under a better canopy than being comfortable under a canopy that might kill them. Being comfortable kills a lot of people.

>I never said any jumper with 100 jumps should or even could fly a
>Stiletto. I am just saying that a jumper who has shown the capacity to not
>pull low, flies conservatively, and maybe has the experience of making a
>low turn under a more forgiving canopy and was lucky enough to walk
>away from it and learn his lesson can safely fly one.

Those two are the same thing. Every single 100 jump wonder out there thinks:

1) they have a capacity to not pull low (even the ones who have done so chalk it up to a 'learning experience' and now they are more aware than someone who has 'never been under pressure')

2) they fly conservatively

3) has some excellent experience (like that low pull or that low turn they learned so very much from)

So yes, those are pretty much the same thing.

>Hey skygods let this post die, please.

It was dead until you resurrected it.

>Sorry I was busy at the DZ skydiving.

Cool. How many jumps did you make?

[rehmwa 2]

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Sorry I was busy at the DZ skydiving. See you all were too busy on here to get any jumping in though.

I am betting he made more jumps than you this weekend.

I was giving the kid the benefit of the doubt, but he really does have a childish ego problem. I'll take 6-7 pm on a Sunday in the pool.

What turned me was just now to Billvon - "uncomfortable" under a Sabre2 (for any reason) and thinking a Stiletto is a fix to that discomfort.

I only made 18 jumps (Five teaching AFF, 6 competition 4 way, 7 more fun jumps including a formation load (PAC + 206 very fun) 20way and organizing a few others) - I'm sure he screamed past that tiny amount.

Guess we just need to keep this going for a while longer since it's not dying apparently.

"Let the thread die" - translation (please stop posting after I have the last word - no matter how stupid or insulting)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[EFS4LIFE 0]

I am not questioning Ian's ability or experience. I am calling him an idiot if he believes I am lying about demoing a ST 190 from PD when he works there and could easily verify it, but instead wants to publicly doubt my "claim"

I HAVE put 10 times the effort into learning. I only post on here in my free time between skydiving and work, which isn't much. 7 jumps this weekend. Not as much as the TI's and video guys do, but hey I was on the packing mat the whole time too, plus teaching a first jump course.

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Then get a bigger canopy, and learn on it until you do feel competent on it.

So are you saying I should not choose to fly a flat canopy? I mean now you are going to dictate the glide of my canopy? I can't like a flat canopy? The Pulse is flat. I liked that one. Would you have beef if I was flying a Pulse 190? Bigger? So you think a 1 to 1 WL is too much for a jumper with 130 jumps? Lol isn't that pretty much standard beginner WL? By the way I DO feel competent on the Stiletto 190 which is why I am flying one. I didn't pick the Stiletto because I think I am being "cool" as some have said. Why wouldn't I just pick a Katana or Velo then? I picked the Stiletto because it has ALL of the characteristics I am looking for. Flat, responsive, sensitive to inputs, and great landings (although requiring adjustments) I honestly would fly a Pulse if it had the same qualities. Hell I don't care if it was called the Newbie or Stu 190 and everyone gave me shit about it I would choose it because of the qualities I want in my canopy. As you should be able to tell by now I don't listen to people giving me shit

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[AggieDave 6]

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I am not questioning Ian's ability or experience. I am calling him an idiot...

This is one of the best examples of how to win friends and influence people in skydiving.

Good luck kid, hope you make it, you'll be really embarrassed by this thread in 5 more years if you're still in the sport.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[rehmwa 2]

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but hey I was on the packing mat the whole time too, plus teaching a first jump course.

130 jumps and teaching a 1st jump course -

where's your home DZ?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[AndyMan 7]

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but hey I was on the packing mat the whole time too, plus teaching a first jump course.

130 jumps and teaching a 1st jump course -

where's your home DZ?

It's possible - helping teach the non-specific parts of a first-jump course is a requirement for the coach rating.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[rehmwa 2]

I'm not a big fan of the coach rating (or the pro-rating)
but then, I'm a fossil

but the kid said 'teaching', not 'helping'

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[mnealtx 0]

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I'm not a big fan of the coach rating (or the pro-rating)
but then, I'm a fossil

but the kid said 'teaching', not 'helping'

See, even more of his 'mad skillzzzzz' that you ignorant skygods can't recognize!!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rehmwa 2]

skydivers are an interesting breed

I've seen crowds standing around mocking guys with broken legs just about as much as I've seen them standing around giving sympathy and support.

it usually depends on the person with the break more than the crowd

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[wmw999 2,123]

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I've seen crowds standing around mocking guys with broken legs just about as much as I've seen them standing around giving sympathy and support.

it usually depends on the person with the break more than the crowd

But regardless they'll make sure the guy is breathing, not bleeding, and help is on its way.

We may eat our young and stupid, but we don't really want to kill them; just toughen them up a little.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rehmwa 2]

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We may eat our young and stupid, but we don't really want to kill them; just toughen them up a little.

shhhhhh - but they don't need to KNOW that


(the new generation doesn't really 'get' tough love - too spoiled/pampered by lazy upbringing)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Heatmiser 0]

Remember the difference between your Mom and Dad? "Little Johnny, don't put that fork in the electric socket!!!" says mom, as she drug you away from it screaming. "Watch this, little fucker will only do that once," is Dad's response in the same situation. We've got both mom's and dad's here, (actual gender non-withstanding).

What you say is reflective of your knowledge...HOW ya say it is reflective of your experience. Airtwardo

Someone's going to be spanked! Hopefully, it will be me. Skymama

[rehmwa 2]

and today, mom (is so lazy) pampers little johnny so much that rather than deal with him screaming, she let's him poke the fork in and we then ban forks because we wouldn't want little Johnny to cry from frustration and hurt his self esteem

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,400]

>I HAVE put 10 times the effort into learning.

So has everyone else at your level. Ask around; see if you can find someone who says "yeah, I really don't put much effort into learning." You are not as exceptional as you think you are.

>plus teaching a first jump course.

If you taught an FJC to someone, and they wanted to skip all those early levels and just go to the graduation dive, would you be OK with that? Imagine they promise to put 10 times the effort into learning that everyone else does.

>So are you saying I should not choose to fly a flat canopy?

Not at all. Get a Safire 2 if you want a flatter canopy.

>I mean now you are going to dictate the glide of my canopy?

Nope. But you should be able to fly a range of canopies, including canopies with a normal glide ratio.

>The Pulse is flat. I liked that one.

The Pulse has a steeper glide than a Safire2. It may be that you do not yet know what a flat glide feels/looks like, and instead are relying on things like descent rate (which is not the same as glide angle) or perceived ground track (which is not the same as glide angle) or relative ability to make it back (which is also not the same.)

That's not a big deal; it takes a while to learn to fly canopies well. I'd suggest a canopy like a larger Pilot while you learn those things.

>Would you have beef if I was flying a Pulse 190? Bigger? So you think
>a 1 to 1 WL is too much for a jumper with 130 jumps?

It's at the very limit I would recommend. If you are an exceptional canopy pilot, and are willing to take canopy control courses, and are willing to choose an appropriate canopy, it can work. If not, then it's a mistake (IMO.)

>isn't that pretty much standard beginner WL?

Yep. Death under a good canopy is now the standard way to die in this sport, too.

>By the way I DO feel competent on the Stiletto 190 which is why I am
>flying one.

I'd be willing to bet that every single person who has been injured or killed under a good canopy has felt the same way. At ~100 jumps you do not have the experience to know what real competence is under canopy. (Not a slam; I'm not competent to judge my own skill at freeflying because I simply don't have enough experience doing it.)

>As you should be able to tell by now I don't listen to people giving me shit advice

That's pretty clear, if unfortunate. Hope you beat the odds.

[EFS4LIFE 0]

My buddy just bought a Saffire2 188 or 189 Whatever is the closest to 190. I forget the exact size they manufacture. He has offered to let me jump it. I will take him up on that. Hey if it is FLAT, responsive, and I can get the great landings I am all for it. Like I said I like the Stiletto 190 for it's characteristics. They are what I am looking for in my canopy. If I can find those things without the sensitive and quirky openings I would be happy. Every canopy has it's positives and negatives IMO. The Stiletto is no different, but people who tell me I can't fly a canopy with the characteristics I want are on crack. I don't have to be "cool" and I don't have to fly a HP. But I know what I want in my canopy. I love being able to plane it out on landing and fly it for awhile. (NOT HOOK TURNING) So far the ONLY canopy I have tried that I could accomplish that on is a Stiletto. My landings have never been so soft. Everything else has pretty much been a one stage flare. People have told me that will change as I downsize and get more wingloading, but I do not want to downsize. I see no reason to. So I will take your advice and try the Saffire2 next time my bud is at the DZ. If I can get those type of landings, and it is flat I may be game to change my canopy.

I am an asshole, but I am honest

[virgin-burner 1]

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I'm not a big fan of the coach rating (or the pro-rating)
but then, I'm a fossil

but the kid said 'teaching', not 'helping'

See, even more of his 'mad skillzzzzz' that you ignorant skygods can't recognize!!

..says the 5-jump-per-year-average-(hardly) guy..

i bow to your excellence!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda