Refusing Students

[Hooknswoop 19]

What is the attitude at the DZ you work at regarding refusing to take a student up for safety reasons?

Have you ever refused a student? If yes, what was the result?

Personnaly, I was fired from a DZ for refusing to take a 250+ lb AFF student. I have seen a TI threatened to "Take the tandem, or you are fired".

Derek

[mfrese 0]

I'm pushing 50 and a part-timer, so I guess I get a little bit of slack.
I will take up to 220 lbs, not over. I have refused to take some students, either due to their size, intoxication, or physical condition, and I've never been taken to task for it...primarily because there are smaller, younger TIs who are usually willing to do it for the extra money.

Doctor I ain't gonna die,
Just write me an alibi! ---- Lemmy/Slash

[slotperfect 7]

At Raeford all instructors have right of refusal with no questions asked. The only time that changes is when someone takes advantage of it for the wrong reasons, e.g. a TI only choosing small female students.

Arrive Safely

John

[Reginald 0]

Quote

What is the attitude at the DZ you work at regarding refusing to take a student up for safety reasons?

The Chief Instructor backs us 100% and the DZ Manager has never done anything other than back us either.

No questions asked....

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[Danne 0]

I have refused because of size and one because of a old neck injury (told him to come back with a doctors note, he never did).

Never had any trouble.

[billeisele 122]

I've refused students for numerous reasons: alcohol, suspected drug use, pregnancy, over sized breast implants, physical impairment, weight, and attitude

attitude - had one guy that continuously asked - what happens if you release this, how does this snap work, how does this chest buckle work, how low can you pull and still live, what happens if--

the final straw was when I overheard him say - wouldn't it be cool if you unsnapped and --

the tone and repetition of the questions sounded very strange

this was a risk I was not willing to take

the DZO agreed with all of these

Miss Big Boobs went with someone else and got injured kinda like I suspected might happen

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[BIGUN 1,072]

I haven't refused to management as much as convinced the student it was not in their best interest for reasons of intoxication, injured back/neck, physical affirmities, etc. When I told the DZO/M's why they were leaving; they were supportive.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[AggieDave 6]

I've refused more then one student for various reasons. One reason was body size/type. Someone who's real short and very heavy (even if its within the weight limit of the gear) is at the very least going to be very uncomfortable in the harness. Other then that its going to be ahrd to properly adjust the harness for their safety.

How does the DZ/DZO react? They're supportive. The DZO, as you know, has been there with his ratings at other DZs with bad attitudes before. That's one of the reasons he runs his DZ the way he does. Yes its a business, but he understands the other side of the fence, so he supports his staff/instructors. Obviously, if the decisions are made for the right reason.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Miami 0]

Best I can remember I've never found myself in the position that I felt I needed to refuse a student, but I have always felt that if I had, for valid reasons, that it would not be frowned upon.

I am not willing to endanger myself or my student for a job. If I feel it is unsafe I will not take them, regardless of threats of my job or anything else. I'll happily tell a DZO to go fuck themselves if they try to force me to take a student up when I feel it is unsafe, and take my business and services elsewhere.

Miami

[JJohnson 0]

I'm 5 foot 4 inches tall and early on I refused to take a student who was 6 foot 5 inches. I have refused to take students that did not speak English as well. If I cannot communicate to them I feel there is too much risk.
I have had some which are real boderline for physical shape, but all have worked out fine so far. Which really makes me wonder just how you judge someone's physical ability. I've had 71 year olds be in better shape then some 18 year olds. Appearance is not always a good indicator.
I've never had management question me either.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[riggerrob 558]

I have refused plenty of students, mostly because they were too fat.
I have also refused students because of recent injuries. For example, this one girl was keen to do tandems - on the same load as her friends - despite a recently-sprained ankle. When I challenged her to run up and down a flight of stairs ....

As for whell chair-bound students ... we consider that to be high risk and low return.

[karlm 0]

Never refused a student, and never convinced a refussing student they should or are gonna jump.

Worked in NorCal last season and the DZ was very supportive and the staff dealing with the bookings were top notch, we very seldom had to turn a student away.

My only "maybe" came from a lady doing a tandem on the 74th B-Day, told her she had to be able to keep her legs up without assistance, she did a good job on the ground. While under canopy I asked her to show me what she would to with her legs on landing, and she ended up in an almost pike position, turns out she's a yoga instructor at her community hall, and has been for the last 30yrs.

Size and weight are never an issue for me, but fitness and ability and attitude are.

Better never to have met you in my dream than to wake and reach for hands that are not there.

[skypuppy 1]

Miss Big Boobs went with someone else and got injured kinda like I suspected
_____________________________________________

What happened? She got whacked in the face?

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[diablopilot 2]

No problem where I work currently. No penlty for turning down a jump.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

At Raeford all instructors have right of refusal with no questions asked. The only time that changes is when someone takes advantage of it for the wrong reasons, e.g. a TI only choosing small female students.

Which brings me (Non-TI) to ask:
When a new TI starts out, do they get assigned students who would be "less risky" for them or would they be assigned whatever comes along on their rotation?

I can see it that a new TI (few jumps) could be assigned a more risky student, say big, heavy, short or whatever and having a problem whereas taking less risky students would be beneficial for the new TI to build up some experience and confidence.

Do you break them in easy or do you kind of throw them to the dogs? How does your DZ handle that for new TIs?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[riddler 0]

I taught a dozen or more AFF ground courses, and recommended that two students do not jump, one because of age, one because of injury. When I teach, I'm always willing to spend extra time (sometimes hours) after the class working with students. My philosophy is if they are willing to put in extra time and effort, so am I. I've worked for hours after class with students that need a bit more time, and I won't take tips for that - it's part of my job, and I don't mind doing it.

The older student took the class with his son, and he simply wasn't getting it. He had to think a long time about each situation, and still came up with the wrong answer. I talked to the AFFIs and told them it's really up to them, but I would say no if it was me. In this case, the instructors worked with the student and agreed with me, but the DZO didn't want to refund even part of the money, so we offered to exchange his AFF Cat A jump for a tandem. He seemed OK with that.

The second was a young girl who felt that she couldn't perform the practice PLFs. She agreed she should wait until her injury improved before making the first jump.

In neither case did I feel that anyone was pressured to let students jump who weren't fit to do so.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[riggerrob 558]

Which brings me (Non-TI) to ask:
When a new TI starts out, do they get assigned students who would be "less risky"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

At Pitt Meadows, we try to ease new TIs into the system. Most of them want to start with beautiful, tiny women, but I remind them of the time a tiny girl had a death grip on my thumb, at pull time.
So we start new TIs with fit students about their same size.
After they have a few dozen tandem jumps, we nudge them towards the edges of the envelope: really big and really small.
I doubt that a junior TI could handle the petite student that I drew yesterday. She did a classic 90, 90 sit fly leg position, too bad I was trying to belly-fly our tandem!
Hee!
Hee!
At the other end of the scale, if a TI refuses to jump with a student significantly taller or heavier than them, that is their right.

[livendive 8]

I get zero flack for refusing students at any of the dz's I work at. Last Saturday I had a somewhat overweight elderly student (90th birthday) who I wasn't initially sure about, despite having a note from her doctor. I watched her for a bit, talked to her, had her demonstrate mobility, and then took her up and we had a blast. But before I decided, the DZO and the student both made it clear that they would respect my call either way.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Adrenalinejunky 0]

I actually refused my first student last weekend. I myself weigh about 210 lbs. When manifest asked me if I was comfortable taking a student that weighed 240, I declined. I was a little uncomfortable saying no because I had never refused a student before, but I just wasn't comfortable pushing the limits of the gear like that. I didn't get any kind of attitude for my decision, and as it turned out, all of the other TI's made the same decision. I wasn't sure if I would catch hell for turning down a student, but I am glad to know now that I won't.

[Sebazz1 2]

I have never refused a tandem or AFF but I have on many occasions thought about it. On tandems, if it's weight issue I might take the student on a hop 'n pop so that we never reach terminal and I will always spend extra time adjusting and securing the harness for older less shapely or less mobile students. I took a parapalegic kid on a tandem one time and while I was intitialy terebily nervous I researched and took the time to become comfortable with the jump to ensure safety for both of us. Working at one DZ particular a long time ago we had weather approaching quickly. We where unable to get full altitude (we got maybe 5.5K - 6K) and The DZO asked us to exit at that altitude with our students. One JM stayed behind but the rest of us jumped. I was young at the time and in hindsight I might have opted to stay in the plane. The JM who stayed in the plane was not fired but was ribbed a little. Usually DZO's or managers have approached me and asked if I was ok with an individual and have left the final decison to me. I have never been threatened to be fired for refusing to jump.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Man, I can't imagine having to work at a DZ that forces people to take students, regardless of "TM comfort zone." I have taken some amazingly large passengers on tandems and never once had a problem with any of them. I am not talking amazingly fat here, I am talking large and tall and, thus, also very heavy. It's the tiny girls who take you for the ride. Some are like throwing a cat off a skyscraper! I have only ever refused two students that I can recall and on both occasions it was because I was feeling under the weather and didn't want to compromise their safety (or mine.)

Chuck

PS: I have personally witnessed an event (actually a series of events) at one dropzone that made me cringe. They not only forced their TM's to do 6,000 foot tandems in POURING rain, they continued doing them until nearly 10 PM since they had refused to give refunds to any of the people there. I was incredulous. This was at a not-so-popular DZ in north ATL where I was competing at a swoop meet a few years ago. I felt very, very sorry for the instructors.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

I recently had some tandems on a very windy day. It was within my comfort range but my other TM had exactly three paying tandems under his belt and one of them had taken him for a drag. I really didn't want to forgo the revenue but didn't want to put a new employee in a position of "if the boss is willing to do it I guess I have to." I talked to him and he declined; big deal. The money I lost by having an extra Cessna flight is fuck all compared to the exposure of having a TM who is not confident in what he is doing, or the cost of losing an employee who is already a good skydiver and instructor, and will become a good TM.

[Tonto 1]

At JSC all instructors - That's SL, AFF and Tandem - have the right to refuse a student, no questions asked.

I always find it somewhat ironic that we all know someone that dropped out of school, or never got their drivers licence 1st time, but that almost everyone passes the 1st jump course.

Skydiving has huge margin for error when compared to some other endevours, but our consequence to failure is extreme. If you, as an instructor think either

a) The student will not perform as trained

or

b) Your skillset on the day is not capable of dealing with a worst case scenario

Then it's only prudent to turn the student away or hand them to someone you feel is more capable than you are.

(But I suspect you already know this..)

I turn 2 or three students away a year. Several others are weeded out before I get them. Some are handed over by others in the faith I can do a better job, and I've handed a few over too, especially on the lighter end of the spectrum.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[livendive 8]

Quote

On tandems, if it's weight issue I might take the student on a hop 'n pop so that we never reach terminal...

I don't really understand this approach unless you're jumping an older tech canopy that's prone to slammers. For me, the heavier the student, the easier they are to control in freefall...built in ballast & all. It's the canopy ride and landing that's a bitch with the short fat ones. A hop & pop avoids the easy part but still exposes you to 100% of the pain in the ass part. Don't get me wrong, I've hop & popped tandems before, but it was due to cloud clearance, not weight. The way I see it, if I'm willing to take them at all, I'm willing to take them to altitude.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Sebazz1 2]

I agree that heavier students are easier to fly but for extremely heavy tandem students I guarantee that you'd rather open sub-terminal that at terminal. That's the reasoning behind the hop n pop tandem. Again that's for 270lbs plus