DZ charging extra for "radio"

[Revillusion 0]

I have a student who I worked with the past several months. She is doing well but has a bit of "canopy anxiety". She passed her Level 7 a couple weeks ago and is now moving on to the coaching phase.

Being cognizant of her anxiety, I offered to keep her on radio for awhile, which she agreed to without hesitation .

Here is what is grinding my gears. The DZ wants to charge her EXTRA for radio. Not for the instructor but for "rental" of a two way radio. Any AFFI at this dropzone would be happy to give her a little "flight following"

Is it just me or is this really absurd?

VIRTUS JUNXIT MORS NON SEPARABIT

[mark 102]

Might be you. Might be absurd. Kinda depends.

I'd support a nuisance fee that encourages a clingy student to take more responsibility for her jump. There's not enough info in your post to tell if that's the case with you.

If I were a DZO, I'd be willing to accept the maintenance and repairs for student radios for students, and I'd accept that occasionally radios are lost or damaged in normal use. I'd try to build those costs into what I charged for student jumps. Gear rental for graduates doesn't normally included radio, though. In that case, I'd see the fee as a kind of insurance premium.

Is there a charge when graduates use student altimeters, helmets, jumpsuits, goggles, or gloves? If so, then a charge for using a radio isn't out of line. Depends on how rentals work there.

If a graduate student uses a radio, are there enough radios left for other students? Where I work, when an up jumper borrows a student altimeter off the rack, I don't worry about it much. But if a student needs that altimeter to make her jump, I'm not shy about getting it back from the experienced jumper. If I knew the altimeter were rented, I'd need to find a different one for my student. Is it like that there?

If I were a DZO and I had enough equipment for other students, I'd be inclined to let an instructor use a radio for a Level 8/Cat F-G-H student, figuring I'd make it back in the rest of the equipment rental and lift ticket -- but I'd like to see that student off radio as soon as possible. And I'd be concerned that that hadn't happened yet.

Mark

[bluskidave 0]

They shouldn't charge for a radio after completion of AFF. If a student can't land their own canopy at that point they shouldn't be jumping

[bodypilot1 0]

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The DZ wants to charge her EXTRA for radio.

That sucks, but I have seen one DZ fuck a student for much less.


Be safe
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[Revillusion 0]

Thank you Mark for the reply.

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I'd support a nuisance fee that encourages a clingy student to take more responsibility for her jump.

She's not clingy. I recognize her canopy anxiety and offered to assist.

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Is there a charge when graduates use student altimeters, helmets, jumpsuits, goggles, or gloves? If so, then a charge for using a radio isn't out of line.

No there is no fee for the use of accessories.

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But if a student needs that altimeter to make her jump, I'm not shy about getting it back from the experienced jumper. If I knew the altimeter were rented, I'd need to find a different one for my student.

Agreed.

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If I were a DZO and I had enough equipment for other students, I'd be inclined to let an instructor use a radio for a Level 8/Cat F-G-H student, figuring I'd make it back in the rest of the equipment rental and lift ticket -- but I'd like to see that student off radio as soon as possible. And I'd be concerned that that hadn't happened yet.

I want to see her off radio asap as well. However, there is nothing wrong with going a step further with your clients, providing reassurance, etc. and I think you agree with me on that.

Thanks again.

VIRTUS JUNXIT MORS NON SEPARABIT

[Revillusion 0]

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If a student can't land their own canopy at that point they shouldn't be jumping

Well Dave, I guess that's what makes you and I different.

Thanks for the reply.

VIRTUS JUNXIT MORS NON SEPARABIT

[matthewcline 0]

Off the original topic but, isn't the radio now being used for freefly coaching, in freefall?

Isn't the radio being used to help canopy pilots (with 100's maybe 1000's of jumps) land better?

For a student who is showing a need to, or wanting to, improve their landing skills it is SMART for the Instructor to use every peice of equipment and instrcution they have available to them.

If the student is still willing to learn and trying, just like we where, then teach them.

The title may be "Instructor" but the job is to TEACH.

Back on topic.

Charging extra if it is not the DZ's normal method, doesn't seem to be a real big deal to me. If the DZ rents a whole set up but typically at ,say level 5 the radio is not part of the set up. That means the DZ can have 4 sets of gear but only needs 2 radio packages. Ifthe use of the radio will get in the way of "normal" proceedures for the DZ's Student rental it would seem resonable to charge a small fee.

But I would probably just charge the same fee across the board and not get to bent out of shape over it.

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[koppel 3]

Whatever happened to helping the next generation?

I recently have moved on from a DZ where people could have a radio if they wanted, anytime!

It didn't mean that we always talked to them, just that they knew we were there if they needed us.

The confidence that can be given to a newbie who has just got their license by knowing that we are on the other end of a radio (even if we don't talk to them) is immense and that gives them the opportunity to grow.

[sarcasm] Sure, charge for that if you think that it is okay to get money of the people new to the sport at any cost. Hey I mean the DZ probably needs to pay for the next beer somehow, right? [\sarcasm]

just remember to think about the fact that we were not all World Class CP's to start with.

It's not all about the money, some of it is about helping the "Next Generation"

Koppel

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[moonglo 0]

At my home DZ there is no charge for radio, but you can't graduate AFF Level 7 unless you can land yourself well with no radio assistance (but can still have one on "just in case"). Coaches aren't allowed to have students on radio.
Makes sense to me, how can you be expected to make a safe solo skydive if you can't land by yourself?

[livendive 8]

Buy your own set of Motorola's and use them. Neither of my "primary" dz's charges for radio (even though one pays the radioman), but if they did I'd just use my own.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[mark 102]

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At my home DZ there is no charge for radio, but you can't graduate AFF Level 7 unless you can land yourself well with no radio assistance (but can still have one on "just in case"). Coaches aren't allowed to have students on radio.
Makes sense to me, how can you be expected to make a safe solo skydive if you can't land by yourself?

I disagree. I don't think a student who has trouble with canopy control is helped by making him pay for and jump with a freefall lifeguard.

Mark

[altichick 0]

I agree that if her freefall skills are ok there is little to be gained by insisting she continues as an 'AFF student' when a coach can provide adequate FF training from this point on.

It would be a good idea to note something in her log bog like 'cleared for self supervision in free fall - requires radio assistance under canopy'. Just in case she were to jump somewhere else - another DZ/Instructor may take 'passed L7' to mean her canopy skills are up to scratch.

As for charging for radio - I think it's wrong to make $ part of the decision when it comes to student safety - if both the student and her instructor feel it's needed then cost shouldn't deter her from having it. Same goes for charging students for cutaways/repacks.... $ should not be something that effects a students decisions when it comes to safety.

Don't sweat the petty things... and don't pet the sweaty things!

[sdctlc 0]

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They shouldn't charge for a radio after completion of AFF. If a student can't land their own canopy at that point they shouldn't be jumping

That is interesting as a general comment, but say they completed the AFF series in the minimum number of jumps.. I have seen S/L students stay with limited radio for over 10 jumps. Just becuse they are off the AFF levels does not make them a licensed skydiver and are still under a supervised status until a min of 25 jumps for that A-license..

The DZ charging $5 or so ( I am assuming) to cover radio charges is not a bad thought but more then that might be excessive. Considering you can buy a 2-way radio set for as low as $20. Then add to the mix the thought of the radio person is getting a buck or two which can be an issue for some people but could be considered part of "Coaching" .

Depending on how it is done I dont see a big problem. Getting someone off the radio is important. Saying that a jumper with a minimum number of jumps showing some concern and requesting the assistance should not be jumping is kinda crazy. Now if they have a license and cant land you might have a point but not for a student/non-licenced supervised jumper.

just $0.02

Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[livendive 8]

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Depending on how it is done I dont see a big problem. Getting someone off the radio is important. Saying that a jumper with a minimum number of jumps showing some concern and requesting the assistance should not be jumping is kinda crazy. Now if they have a license and cant land you might have a point but not for a student/non-licenced supervised jumper.

Last year I provided some canopy control assistance to a gal who had around 70 jumps. Her freefall skills were fine for her experience level, and as far as I know, she'd done ok with her canopy control previously, she was just going through a rough stretch flying a solid pattern. She asked me to watch and critique her, and when that didn't work after a couple jumps she asked me if I'd mind if she wore a radio. I didn't mind...whatever works. If after that I'd gotten the impression she needed a TUG speech, I'd have given her one, but in the meantime, tools are made to be used. We also had an A-licensed gal with 30 some-odd jumps take some substantial time off due to a shoulder surgery. She was apprehensive about flying the canopy, so we gave her a radio for her first jump back. What's wrong with that?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Revillusion 0]

I really appreciate the feedback here. There have been opinions from both sides of the table.

This student CAN land a canopy by herself. She has done so sucessfully, and I have witnessed many. Under my supervision, she has made her setup, flown her approach, and landed. And, on more than one occassion, done so without radio assistance.

Her canopy anxiety is just that, anxiety. Not a failure to perform.

In retrospect, I guess I was a little frustrated when I offered the post, cuz I get so freakin pissed when the DZO is trying to squeeze every last nickle out of every last customer, e.g. student.

I'm going to get a set of those Motorolas. They are inexpensive. And, I suppose I can use them as I see fit.

Thank you all for your input.

Blues ...

VIRTUS JUNXIT MORS NON SEPARABIT

[sdctlc 0]

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What's wrong with that?
Blues,
Dave

Dave,

I dont have a problem with either one of the situations you mentiond and am a proponet of radio and continued training. What I meant more so and maybe diod not illustrate enough was more that I would question someone that is licenced, considering there are accuracy requirements to gt a license, who has trouble and does not seek out assistance. If someone has a question or concern and is looking to improve their own abilities and inturn safety I dont have a problem. I am more concerned if someone has an issue and is not concerned about it....

Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[kelpdiver 2]

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In retrospect, I guess I was a little frustrated when I offered the post, cuz I get so freakin pissed when the DZO is trying to squeeze every last nickle out of every last customer, e.g. student.

I'm going to get a set of those Motorolas. They are inexpensive. And, I suppose I can use them as I see fit.

On that front, if any Bay Area instructor wants a pair, PM me and I'll drop em off the next time I'm at your DZ. They're in one of my boxes, doing very little for me.

[Velo96 0]

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They shouldn't charge for a radio after completion of AFF. If a student can't land their own canopy at that point they shouldn't be jumping

When are drop zone owners who are still using 7 level AFF going to realize that you can't train a student properly for freefall or especially canopy skills in a 7 jump program? 7 level AFF is one of the reasons that skydivers continually kill themselves with the same botched emergency procedures and poor canopy control year after year. The longer students stay under the guidance of an instructor or coach, and continually learn new information and REVIEW emergency procedures the better off they will be in the long run. They learn good habits as new jumpers and carry on with them as they gain experience years after their student training. The students should be trained to fly a proper pattern along with the additional canopy skills outlined in the Integrated Student Program, and the radio can be used as a back up in case they deviate from the planned pattern. Does the radio add to the cost of the student's jump for the DZ? Hell no. If they are busy and need more radios for other students, then maybe they need to spend money for additional radios.

[AFFI 0]

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When are drop zone owners who are still using 7 level AFF going to realize that you can't train a student properly for freefall or especially canopy skills in a 7 jump program? 7 level AFF is one of the reasons that skydivers continually kill themselves with the same botched emergency procedures and poor canopy control year after year. The longer students stay under the guidance of an instructor or coach, and continually learn new information and REVIEW emergency procedures the better off they will be in the long run. They learn good habits as new jumpers and carry on with them as they gain experience years after their student training. The students should be trained to fly a proper pattern along with the additional canopy skills outlined in the Integrated Student Program, and the radio can be used as a back up in case they deviate from the planned pattern. Does the radio add to the cost of the student's jump for the DZ? Hell no. If they are busy and need more radios for other students, then maybe they need to spend money for additional radios.

What a great post - worth repeating...

We have an 18 jump program and our graduates are MUCH more competent all around skydivers than I was after gradutaing AFF and I was a great student. No AFF repeat dives. 7 for 7..

I totally agree that the AFF 7 jump program is insufficient for most.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[tkhayes 126]

I agree - radios should be used until the student demonstrates consistent and safe flying and landing patterns. Whether that takes 7 or 25 jumps. You do not have to 'talk' to them, just monitor them. The idea that you are on your own after 7 jumps is ridiculous.

[riggerrob 558]

. . . . The idea that you are on your own after 7 jumps is ridiculous.

[Trae 1]

in reply to "Is it just me or is this really absurd? "
........................

More like cheap and nasty than absurd.

Bit like charging more to use newer more up to date student gear rather than the shabby ol' rig in the corner.

This reeks of irresponsible greed . The student has a right to have any equipment provided to ensure a reasonable standard of training.

Blaming the student as a slow learner or such is just more of the 'blame the student" to cover up for instructing inadequacy syndrome.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Im not an instructor but I agree.... hell at my level if I needed a radio for whatever reason ie lack of currency, down-sizing and just want a crutch etc etc my DZ would find a way to accomdate that need. I think it just makes sense, for safety reasons and business wise

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[rehmwa 2]

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This reeks of irresponsible greed . The student has a right to have any equipment provided to ensure a reasonable standard of training.

What if it was phrased this way?

"At our DZ, once a student is comfortable landing their canopy without a radio (or tying up an up jumper or instructor to watch them), they get a couple bucks discount on gear rental for not needing a radio."

Would that "Reek of irresponsible greed?"

Edit: In addition to just the equipment use, someone has to take the time to stand outside and watch for the jumper and be ready to help. Some DZs kick a couple bucks to an up jumper for "manning the radio".

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Trae 1]

in reply to ""At our DZ, once a student is comfortable landing their canopy without a radio (or tying up an up jumper or instructor to watch them), they get a couple bucks discount on gear rental for not needing a radio."

Would that "Reek of irresponsible greed?"
................................

Mmmm it does smell a bit ....

Does charging a so called problem student extra for the added time needed sit well with you? This is a similar proposition.

All this appears to just be another way of extracting more cash from students....when it looks like the instructors and operation that needs some retraining/reorganising/re-equiping. Does the DZ dog get paid to be nice and friendly . Is there a parking fee for getting shade instead of sun?

Going further with this perhaps the students should get a refund/discount if they get an inexperienced instructor instead of the hot shot, or are forced to use inferior gear, instead of making them pay more to get what should be standard fare... if they need it.