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What to do when an instructor gives bad/dangerous advice?

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What would you do if you happen to overhear an instructor giving bad advice or even giving advice/instruction that is dangerous?

I'll toss out some situations since I know advice can mean lots of different things to lots of people.

1) Advising a student (pre-A licence) to go ahead and pull high (4500-5000) and exit as the last RW jumper with out telling any other group about the high pull.

2) Advising a sub-100 jump person to buy a high performance canopy that they will load greater then 1.3.

3) Advising a student that as soon as they get their A licence to quit jumping with an RSL since they are "death traps"

4) Advising some one on a downsizing having only watched 1-2 of their student landings.

5) Advising a student to "Wait until the group reaches 45 degrees then go"

What would you do in situations like these where you think the advise might be wrong, incorrect, or dangerous?
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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my first reaction is usually to pull that individual to one side, once out of ear shot of said instructor and explain why I believe the contrary might be true; using evidence both for and against so that the individual can make up their own informed decision.

To be honest it doesnt happen to often and then only usually with instructors from other dropzones where things can understandably be taught or interpreted differently.

Warwick University Skydiving Club

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Interesting question.

If you have an Instructor rating....And WORK at the DZ. I would pull the student aside and without saying the other Instructor is stupid....Let them know that there are other ways and explain them to the student.

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) Advising a student (pre-A licence) to go ahead and pull high (4500-5000) and exit as the last RW jumper with out telling any other group about the high pull.



"Ya know, pulling that high is a little abnormal....Ya know, it might be better to go after the Freaks, or atleast let them know you plan on pulling high. More info never hurt anyone."

If you don't work there, you might want to ask the Instructor why.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I am always a big fan of public praise and private critique from how I learn as being a student...

I welcome critique as long as the conversation is positive and not accusatory.

Teaching items in skydiving are not always black and white, yes or no, true or false, 1 or 0... There are shades in between on a lot of things... So I would approach the other person and ask them why they believe what they taught, to hear their perspective. Then I would sell them on my beliefs, and ask them to consider the options... I would try to cite sources, like manufacturer's owners manuals, or articles/interviews by the experts in the field to justify what I am saying.

I honestly don't think people on purpose give wrong information, sometimes they learned wrong, and sometimes they learned different, and sometimes they were too lazy to learn, and sometimes they should not be teaching in the first place...

That is my two cents from the person who is learning perspective.

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good points and good question.

i think even instructors can open mouth before engajing brain on occasions,

the best way to help in these situations is to talk to said instructor at that moment and in private, this will prevent embarasment and animosity building up.

a calm relaxed conversation and disccusion could help both instructors and students,

ask that instructor to then correct his original statment or ask if you could approach the student to do it for him, again without causing animosity or embarisment,

if this does not work approach the DZO, STA, OR CCI

Safety is the responcibility of everybody so you should not feel bad about doing this.
life is a journey not to arrive at the grave in a pristine condition but to skid in sideways kicking and screaming, shouting "fuck me what a ride!.

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I do just that if I am around when advise is given.

I even help the Instrcutor with how he may word the recant so as not to look bad and lose the students faith in him.

Most of the examples can have some pretty heavy "opinion" based replies and situations.

But the harder right, is also the safer right.
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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I'd discuss the questions with the instructor. If that doesn't work, then seek out the S&TA and discuss it with him/her. With any luck the S&TA will be willing to follow-up as a second voice. Of course it may be that YOU are wrong about the issue, in which case the S&TA could help you to learn. Another option is to chat with the DZO or school manager.

As a final resort, you could chat with the student and let him know there is at least one other opinion on the topic.
.
Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

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If I may, I would address this from the side of the student...

While being taught (in anything) you are more apt to go with first instincts and listen to those who have taught you all along.

If you overhear something, do not say anything to the student!!! You are going to create confusion for the student as well as open the possibility for the student to do something against their instructor's desires (the instructor had a reason). Telling the student something different might also cause them to lose faith in the instructor which would be bad.

The ONLY exception, is if the the information opens the student up to a greater immediate risk.

As mentioned above, ask the instructor to the side and discuss with them outside of the earshot of the student.

I witnessed this repeatedly at the DZ one day. The student was hanging in the training harness while his instructor and another instructor debated the proper technique of pulling reserves (one hand on each handle or pull each with both hands). It was confusing to all involved, which of the two veterans do you side with?

Just my thoughts as a student...
-
-
"Baseball is 90% mental. The other half is physical."

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I'd discuss the questions with the instructor. If that doesn't work, then seek out the S&TA and discuss it with him/her. ..... Of course it may be that YOU are wrong about the issue,



I think this is the best thing said so far. Everyone thinks their own advice is correct, granted that wasn't the context of the original question. Always ask about something that is contrary to your own knowledge.
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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1) Advising a student (pre-A licence) to go ahead and pull high (4500-5000) and exit as the last RW jumper with out telling any other group about the high pull.



this one has many of variables. in some situations this is the best thing, and sometimes it is not. exept for not telling the groups behind them

but anyway, ego's are something that every human have a hard time dealing with. including me, and my own ego:)

talking with the s&ta then talking with the instructor to find out his motives.

alot of these reason's is why it is good to have somone on the plane who is the "load organiser" to deal with some of these issues.

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I witnessed this repeatedly at the DZ one day. The student was hanging in the training harness while his instructor and another instructor debated the proper technique of pulling reserves (one hand on each handle or pull each with both hands). It was confusing to all involved, which of the two veterans do you side with?

Just my thoughts as a student...



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I don't really care. As long as the student has learned a technique that will save their life, I don't waste time trying to retrain them.
Remember that it takes hundreds of repetitions to "break" a habit.

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How about teaching that an out of sequence deployment with that canopy out and the PC still in the pouch as a Total?
Recommending to Deploy Reserve into the mess...

Could have made a federal case out of it but instead what I did was make sure that instructor was in earshot of another student being taught correctly and the message got through indirectly.

How many hands per handle? Having a DZ policy and detailed training curriculum set in motion by the DZ management helps to settle these differences of opinion.

Ego's? I like mine with butter and syrup...

Make it a great day...
Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

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I just tell my students to ignore anything that they read on dropzone.com. Most of the time that solves the problem of getting crappy advice.




The only reason I know the 45 degree rule makes no sense is because of this website, granted you have to sort through the crap but usually paying attention to the source of your information wether it be on here or at the DZ will go a long way. I've had instructors at at least 4 major Dz's in Florida recite the 45 degree rule to me.:S



"Don't Mess Around With the Guy in Shades- Oh No!!! "

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Nate-
Thank you for making my point for me. What you are saying (and correct me if I am mistaken) is that because you read on this web site that 45 makes no sense, and even though your instructors in FL told you it is a good rule of thumb, you believe that the people posting that information to this website are right and your local instructors are wrong. Great idea.
The fact of the matter is that while no rule is absolutely correct, the 45 degree thing is a great place to start when determining proper separation. It is not always applicable but let's look at it. Most skydivers can't spot unless the light is on. But their ego tells them that they know exactly where they are (So does mine). And most non-cessna experienced, turbine dz jumpers, short spot.
Now - if the uppers are honking at say 50 and you tell the next stick to wait 25 seconds, they frequently don't make it much past 10. If you tell them to wait until there is a 45 degree angle of separation, they are much more likely to wait to climb out until there really is some actual separation.
You don't often hear this kind of information on this web site because most people that have this knowledge are a) busy jumping (or rigging) and don't have time for this internet crap b) so disgusted from what they read on dz.com that they want no part of it
c) hate posting to dz.com cuz some dipshit with more posts than jumps will claim to be the expert on whatever subject is being discussed. or d) just figures that when you come to their dz they will be happy to help you face to face.
There are a lot of good intentions here on dz.com. But the reality is that there is a ton of crap here and words should not be taken as gospel just because someone voices their opinion on the internet.
Be safe and have fun.
Aaron
“God Damn Mountain Dew MotherFuckers!”

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There are a lot of good intentions here on dz.com. But the reality is that there is a ton of crap here and words should not be taken as gospel just because someone voices their opinion on the internet.



I had a business teacher in college teach a whole 2 hour class where just about everything he taught was wrong, but not so wrong it was obvious... And, he used other people's books, news articles, videoed interviews, etc all as "supporting documentation".

Someone finally caught on...

The lesson was simple... We all learned it... Don't believe everything you see, hear or read, even if it comes from an instructor or teacher.

Now in skydiving I believe you have to trust your instructors with your life for your first handful of jumps. If you don't trust "that instructor", find a new one...

But once you are able to self supervise, then it is time to open your mind and read as much as you can, talk to as many people as you can, study as much as you can, and start to make opinions on your own based upon research and knowledge.

I am a strong believer in reading this site - so as long as people with any experience level don't treat it as truth, but just an open forum to discuss.

This site often gives me more questions than answers, which is good, because I go off and find answers that I can believe in.

I really like how sites like this can open people's mind to other schools of thought, right or wrong.

If I was skydiving at one DZ in a vacuum of info, I would only know what the "crowd" at that DZ believed. Sites like this, skydivingradio.com and others truly open minds...

But what I guess I am trying to say is, I don't believe what anyone says, in my face, on the net, or in a book, unless I can research it, understand it, and substantiate it with other sources.

I think we are on the same page about not taking this site as gospel... But, I see a few people posting that they discourage students from reading this site... I think that is wrong, instead, they should teach the lesson that not everything you read, are taught, or hear is true. Including, perhaps, what I just wrote.:S:P:)

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The fact of the matter is that while no rule is absolutely correct, the 45 degree thing is a great place to start when determining proper separation.


I disagree. Bill von Novak did some extensive research on that, please see this thread:
Why the 45 degree method does not work

Quote

It is not always applicable but let's look at it.


Fact of the matter is, it is never applicable. This topic has been beaten to death already.

Quote

There are a lot of good intentions here on dz.com. But the reality is that there is a ton of crap here and words should not be taken as gospel just because someone voices their opinion on the internet.


I agree about both points B|

I've found the ton of crap talk to be everywhere in skydiving, it has nothing to do with the internet. The only difference between dropzone.com and the Bonfire talk on any local DZ is the number of potential listeners, and that one risks damaging their credibility in front of the whole skydiving community if they get caught writing complete BS!

I've heard so much crap on different DZs from different people already in my short 3 years of skydiving, that sometimes I'd rather go on DZ.com and do some extensive research on a topic than putting up with the half-drunken Bonfire talk. :S
Here I can just skip the bullshit by scrolling down to the post of someone who knows what they're talking about, and who proves it with facts that I can comprehend.

I'm getting offtopic here, sorry...
blue skies :)

Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse.
(Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

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The fact of the matter is that while no rule is absolutely correct, the 45 degree thing is a great place to start when determining proper separation.



Did your instructor once tell you that?

Sorry, but the 45 degree rule being false is a great example of something I too, learned on DZ.COM, and it contradicted what my instructors taught me. I sat on the fence for a while, but eventually I figured it out, and last year I taught the safety-day lecture on spotting. The crunch of my speech was "whatever you do, for gods sake don't use the 45 degree rule".

Now I'm teaching my former instructors.

Unfortunately, in this example - you are wrong. The 45 degree rule is not a good place to start. It makes no more sense than trusting the color of the sky, or the orientation of the planets. You would do just as well as to observe that Venus was ascending into Mars before following the previous group out.

Ironically, you just proved yourself wrong. You would do well to read more online, especially about the 45 degree rule. You might just learn something.

_Am
__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

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>you believe that the people posting that information to this website are
>right and your local instructors are wrong.

Correct. I've got the pictures and video if you want to see it. They never reach 45 degrees.

>If you tell them to wait until there is a 45 degree angle of separation,
>they are much more likely to wait to climb out until there really is some
>actual separation.

Right, but here's the problem:

1) If one of the jumpers is smart enough to know what 45 degrees really looks like, he will never go. And while that's safe, it's not that useful.

2) If another jumper thinks 45 degrees is really 30 degrees, he will go after about a second. That could kill someone.

So what they do instead is look outside, guess, and go. Which leads to poor exit separations during high winds. In other words, the method doesn't work.

What DOES work is telling people to wait ten seconds if they need to wait ten seconds. Or tell them to count their fingers. (If they have ten fingers, of course.)

>But the reality is that there is a ton of crap here . . .

Indeed, and the 45 degree angle thing leads the list of crap.

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Nate-
Thank you for making my point for me. What you are saying (and correct me if I am mistaken) is that because you read on this web site that 45 makes no sense, and even though your instructors in FL told you it is a good rule of thumb, you believe that the people posting that information to this website are right and your local instructors are wrong. Great idea.
The fact of the matter is that while no rule is absolutely correct, the 45 degree thing is a great place to start when determining proper separation. It is not always applicable but let's look at it. Most skydivers can't spot unless the light is on. But their ego tells them that they know exactly where they are (So does mine). And most non-cessna experienced, turbine dz jumpers, short spot.
Now - if the uppers are honking at say 50 and you tell the next stick to wait 25 seconds, they frequently don't make it much past 10. If you tell them to wait until there is a 45 degree angle of separation, they are much more likely to wait to climb out until there really is some actual separation.
You don't often hear this kind of information on this web site because most people that have this knowledge are a) busy jumping (or rigging) and don't have time for this internet crap b) so disgusted from what they read on dz.com that they want no part of it
c) hate posting to dz.com cuz some dipshit with more posts than jumps will claim to be the expert on whatever subject is being discussed. or d) just figures that when you come to their dz they will be happy to help you face to face.
There are a lot of good intentions here on dz.com. But the reality is that there is a ton of crap here and words should not be taken as gospel just because someone voices their opinion on the internet.
Be safe and have fun.
Aaron



OK I will correct you, the 45 degree rule is wrong ...I read a lot of information on here about it , mostly from Billvon's post about the subject..I know his history in the sport....not only did he explain why it was wrong he showed video to back it up. Not too mention it made sense.....Now here's my question if I can take the time to learn about proper exit seperation why can't the people teaching the sport to others take the time as well? Also if the uppers are "honking" at 50 mph thats something that should be explained to everyone on the load before they load the aircraft and the pilot should be ok with making a go around if need be.



"Don't Mess Around With the Guy in Shades- Oh No!!! "

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Now here's my question if I can take the time to learn about proper exit seperation why can't the people teaching the sport to others take the time as well?



How many instructors do you know of teaching this alleged "rule?"
If you see them in the act, let them know.

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I know of at least 4-5 that did. 2 were former S&TA's that learned old school and "that fancy math stuff just ain't needed, look out, wait, then go" was their teaching method. I don't say anything since I don't have any ratings anymore.

Its been interesting to see reactions. I am wondering more about how you would react if you over hear someone giving bad gear advice too... (either too fast/small or not matching the needs of the jumper).
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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