Tandem pre-levels for hand-mounted camera?

[Tonto 1]

I don't do Tandems at the moment.

I've done 750 tandems.

I won't wear a handycam.
I don't wear a camera when I'm doing AFF either.

Maybe I don't have the head space for it.
Maybe I can't multitask.

Maybe I like the bond I share with outside video people.
Maybe I like sharing the experience with the student.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Liemberg 0]

Quote

I've done 750 tandems / I won't wear a handycam. / Maybe I can't multitask.

Explanation is in the number of 750; since the previous post gave a clear number of at least a thousand, you just haven't reached Tandem-Zen yet...

Keep at it, little grashopper, you are almost there!

All joking aside - wherever a camera is mounted and whatever technique is used, it does need a battery, must be in focus, has to be switched on, must be aimed, needs tape or other means of image-storage, etcetera. This WILL cause a distraction. Anybody who thinks that he can't cope with that distraction should avoid finding out in freefall - re. the same logic as not allowing cameraflyers around you on the first 25 - Is that a rule? Or just a smart idea?
One final note: A lot of (semi)pro's do tandem AND video. At my place, everybody who does tandem also has experience in cameraflying and some have over a thousand camera jumps. Two of these guys switch the task regularly during the day (i.e. one does the tandem, other flies camera, next jump tandemmaster becomes cameraflyer, cameraflyer becomes tandemmaster) My feeling is that this helps for the hand-mounted camera, be it alone technical knowledge of camera's...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[riggerrob 558]

Quote

Rob-
Could you clarify a couple of things for me? You get paid $30 Canadian to do a tandem correct? You get $45 for tandem with handcam or an additional $45 for the hand cam? What does a a video guy get paid? Does it seem like I'm obsessed with getting paid?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

We charge students CAN$55 for Handi-Mount video.
If I do a simple tandem, I get paid $30.
If I strap on a Handi-Mount, I collect $30 + 45, for a total of $75 per jump
Not a bad raise!
The $45 includes me dubbing video footage onto a VHS tape with music and titles.

If I am too busy to dub, I have the option of asking another videographer to dub, in which case he earns $10 and I only earn $65.

In comparison, we charge $95 for outside video and the outside videographer earns $45, with manifest paying for his seat in the airplane.

Does it sound like I am obsessed with getting paid?
Yup!
Pay rates have always been painfully low in the skydiving industry, so I introduced the whole concept of Hand-Mounts to Pitt Meadows for the sole goal of earning a pay raise.
As for the DZO coercing me ... Hah!
Initially the DZO wanted nothing to do with this new-fangled gadget. He only started to take Handi-Mount seriously when more dollars started flowing across his till.
In 2004, the DZO's biggest dilemma was that only his senior-most TI was competent with Handi-Mount, so he could only offer one per load.
Mind you, a couple of ambitious younger TIs are catching up quickly.

• Quote

[aironscott 3]

Rob-
Wow! that is a nice raise. Even in Canadian dollars. As soon as I'm done here I'm going to go make my self a hand cam mount.
Having spent several years on the circuit doing tandems, aff, rigging, and whatever else I definently agree that workers in the skydiving industry are grossly underpaid in some senses. Those TI's that are around that just got to 500 free falls and got their ratings probably should be paid the 30-35 bucks that the DZO's are paying. I'm not sure that anyone that has 500 jumps should even be doing tandems. Although I remember thinking that I was quite qualified for the job at that point in my skydiving career. Maybe that's an idea for another poll. Do you think that the 500 jump minimum requirement should be increased and to where 750, 1000, 1500? Keep in mind that we all had to start somewhere. There are probably some people reading this post that are remembering when I was a snot nosed punk. Hell they may still think that.
But having been around as long as i have, my opinion is that you can not have enough skydiving experience before you start doing tandems. I've seen people with 10 times the skydiving ability that I have quit doing tandems after one weekend. (And if they hadn't quit I would have strongly encouraged them to do so.) Tandem skydiving certainly isn't for everone. Some get it and some don't. Unfortunately there are times when some people don't realize when its time to say enough. And all to often that realization doesn't come until after they've made a stupid mistake and some trusting passenger/student gets hurt because of incompetence. However unknowlingly that incompetence is. So is there a solution? Should the requirements be upped for being a TI. In my opinion getting a TI rating should at least be as hard as getting an AFF rating. Currently it is not.
I'd like to hear some of your opinions on this.

Aaron

“God Damn Mountain Dew MotherFuckers!”

[cpoxon 0]

Quote

So is there a solution? Should the requirements be upped for being a TI. In my opinion getting a TI rating should at least be as hard as getting an AFF rating. Currently it is not.

Interesting points, worthy of being split off into a separate thread I feel, John?

Coming from a country with higher pre-requisites for attending a course (800 jumps for tandem and 1000 for AFF), I've always thought 500 jumps were a bit low, but then again, and figure is arbitary. These days people can rack up the jump numbers in a short space of time and the standard of learning is a lot higher, so maybe the requirements are right? Which countries have different jump numbers/freefall time/time in the sport requirements for Tandem and AFF than the US and the UK?

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[dragon2 0]

The Netherlands:

Tandem:
D-license
1000 jumps
5 hours freefall
1 cutaway (intentional or not)
renewal:
75 jumps/year, 35 tandems/year, medical

AFF:
D-license
HI (don't know the equivalent, but it's kind of a beginner instructor rating)
3 years in sport
500 FS jumps
50 succesfull linked exits
renewal:
25 AFF + 25 FS jumps/yr
45 mins freefall time/yr
keep the HI rating


D-license:
500 freefall jumps
3 hours freefall time
and a C-license of course, which is a bunch more including a written test

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[linestretch 0]

Rob, this is a good one. I had around 500 when i started doing them, and felt that I wasn't really cut out to do them....and I'd like to think I'm heads up. I agree with the aussie's that 500 should be a minumum....but they changed their thinking. It's just like the rating itself.....some should get it, and some who have it shouldn't.

my pics & stuff!

[rustywardlow 0]

[LukeOliver 0]

I'm Australian, around 900 tandems, about 350 with Handcam.

Started handcam with about 300 tandems I think (the Australian rule hasn't always been like it is now). Maybe a late starter to Tandems at around 1500 jumps, about 500 of those camera.

No doubt that having filmed a lot of outside camera already, the process was simpler:
- Understood how to operate the camera
- Had already seen a bunch of !@#$ go wrong on tandems, as well as a heap of good ones
- Could interview customers, point them into the sun, etc

Every time someones says to me that "Handcam isn't a distraction", I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Of course it is.

Most of my results have been good. Have made at least one technical mistake whilst doing it (taking time out to film a collapsed drogue because it looked cool instead of just releasing it). You can't complete handle checks on the left hand side whilst you're filming unless you break the shot. I enjoy doing handcam, but prefer being filmed by an outside camera. There's also a pretty interesting discussion on whether it's hindering progression amongst DZ staff as well.

There isn't an easy answer to the original question - of course there's a level of competence with tandems that needs to be achieved before adding a glove to your left hand. Quantifying that is difficult. Flying outside camera definitely helped me. And some sort of restriction will help prevent junior tandem masters being pushed into it...

L.

HandCam - filming wearing a glove
HandyCam - Sony Trademark

Quote

This question arose during PIA 2005.

What is the minimum experience level before a Tandem Instructor should strap on a hand-mounted camera?
...
We will only listen to responses from TIs who have done more than 100 tandems.

[clint 1]

maybe the inst. need some video help?

[Bowie 0]

Interesting reading just have one thing to add for riggerrob and Craig.
The word is "Cam eye SPORT" it makes your sony cam act like cam eye II but in VCR mode when using the Bulletcam. saves both tape and battery on the camera

Bo (Birdman) Wienberg

Bo Wienberg

vimeo.com/bowienberg

[Canuck 0]

Quote

I also hope the videographer's role is never eliminated.

Yup, me to. TIs that use hand cams are seeing the positive of effectively doubling their salaries. What they're not seeing is that they are also effectively halfing the number of people that can get paid to skydive.

I'm actually not too worried though. It has been my experience that people like pictures (and I'm not talking about some shitty frame grabs) at least as much as they like video, so until some TI is stupid enough to put a video cam on one hand and a still cam on the other, we videographers will be just fine.

Canuck

[skydiverton 0]

Quote

What they're not seeing is that they are also effectively halfing the number of people that can get paid to skydive.

That has always been a problem (invention of steam engine) That is a pity, but not a reason not to use new techniques

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig

[PhreeZone 15]

*Thread Drift* I know a few people that financed their jumping until they could get ratings by doing video. Its hard to get new TM's if people never reach their jump numbers due to limited funds and can't shoot video anymore to assist in that.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Canuck 0]

[Deuce 1]

Quote

Figure doesn't mean much to you I guess cause here it is completely different what that dollar could buy you - less miles on the car but better health insurance, to name just one. Haven't negotiated the handcamfee yet, but I'll work something out. Lets say that they allways complain and nevertheless keep coming - I must be doing something right...

My opinion is that the tandem skydive is a entre into our sport, and it being completed without injury is more important than any accessory, like a handicam souvenir.

Being inherently and obnoxiously (apparently) American, I have absolutely no desire to have the handicam prohibited. I do think it's a bad idea, though, and I don't think the argument can be made that it does not present the possibility of complicating the completion of emergency procedures.

I haven't had my first tandem cutaway yet. I have about 300. Even though I have 4 sport cutaways, I would not like to have my PC 120 mounted on my hand when I have an out-of-sequence deployment on the Vector system.

Perhaps a bullet-lensed system that is mounted in the student's jumpsuit, but not something on my hands.

People will opt for your handcam option because it it cheaper. Do you admit is has the possibility of making their skydiving experience more dangerous?

To be fair, a new video person also makes their skydive more dangerous.

Like Lewmonst, I'm an accomplished video flyer who is becoming an accomplished tandem master. I'd just a soon keep the video flyer in the chain, rather than eliminate them for a quick "tip" like payment for complicating a tandem with a handcam.

Cheers.

Quote

Lets say that they allways complain and nevertheless keep coming - I must be doing something right...

If, during a violent malfunction a particularly strong student grabs hold of that hand contraption that has no cutaway and prevents emergency procedures from being succesfully completed, they may stop coming.

Doing anything in skydiving for the money is very, very dangerous.

Your European condescension is both humourous and saddening. Bully for you and your eurotopia.

[Liemberg 0]

Quote

I would not like to have my PC 120 mounted on my hand when I have an out-of-sequence deployment on the Vector system.

Neither would I. But with the camera / recorder in a bag on the passengers belly and the bulletcam (8 cm long, 1.5 cm diameter) under my altimeter it is a non-issue...

Quote

If, during a violent malfunction a particularly strong student grabs hold of that hand contraption that has no cutaway and prevents emergency procedures from being succesfully completed, they may stop coming.

A bulletcam on the hand (and please do look at the picture of my setup a few posts back) is no more dangerous in that situation as the altimeter itself, or the hand as such - just don't let them grab you. (No one ever grabbed one of my hands during + 1000 tandems - I go to great lengths to avoid it...)

Quote

Doing anything in skydiving for the money is very, very dangerous.

The fact that you are paid to do certain things makes them more dangerous than if you would do exactly the same but were not paid?

I fail to see why...

The fine art (maybe beyond American minds...) is of course to not let your decision what you do and what you don't get influenced by the fact that you get paid...

A rich man arives at heavens gate. St-Peter refuses to let him in. "I'm sorry" the rich man says - "there must have been a mistake. I gave over 5 milion dollar to charity during my lifetime, I built a new wing to the local hospital, I supported an orphanage in Sri Lanka, I put a new roof on the local church ... obviously there must be a mix-up somewhere..."

"OK" St-Peter says "Wait here, I'll consult the Chief"

Five minutes later St-Peter returns "Got it sorted out. A mix-up indeed. Here's your money back. Don't forget to refund the deducted taxes on your way down!"

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Quote

*Thread Drift* I know a few people that financed their jumping until they could get ratings by doing video. Its hard to get new TM's if people never reach their jump numbers due to limited funds and can't shoot video anymore to assist in that.

Huh? My tandem rating cost me $300.

[riggerrob 558]

If, during a ... malfunction a ... student grabs hold of that ... contraption ... and prevents emergency procedures ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hint: pull the release handle with your right hand, then cover the student's eyes with your right hand. Chances are they will let go of your left hand to un-cover their eyes.
Remember that you still have an RSL and an AAD backing up your left hand.

[Deuce 1]

Quote

The fact that you are paid to do certain things makes them more dangerous than if you would do exactly the same but were not paid?

I think some professions are a calling. I think we agree here, I would, and do, instruct for free because it's a joy, and I'm good at it. Primarily I enjoy meeting and interacting with the skydivers.

Someone who did it for $30 a pop and didn't care about the people at all causes me concern. Skydiving isn't like installing windshields in cars.

As to the camera, my bad. I was wrong, I don't think that lens is complicating your deal at all. I incorrectly assumed the handmount for the whole mini-dv.

The way I heard that story, in church, was the rich guy recalls having given a beggar a dollar on the street. God gives St. Peter a beautiful silver dollar and tells him give it to the rich guy and tell him to go to hell.

Cheers.

[bobjoy9 0]

Quote

I think some professionals are calling

----------------

Here here,
That's what we are talking about ,,,, Professionals.
I would like to say that I respect the open opions that tandem make on handycams and I not respect any close minded opionon that some body makes about handycams when they don't do tandems.You know who you are.
I am not in any way about to enter into a debate on how it benefits the dz owner by the number of bums on the floor or how it is taking away the outside camera angle, what we must look at and I feel strongly about is that skydiving is evolving and we must let it as tandem handycam is another facet of video skydiving.

Now onto the main subject TANDEM HANDYCAM PRE-LEVELS,
This is what I think we should do for someone who is looking at tandem handycam, Have a manual with something like this in mind.
Here is something I have been working on a sort of note book / Manual.

---------TANDEM HANDYCAM-----
MENTAL & PHYSICAL ABILITY


ARE YOU READY TO DO A TANDEM HANDY CAM ?

Are you mentally & physically pre paired for doing a tandem handycam?
This is what you have to ask yourself.
Are you ready to add more to your tandem skydive?
Do you have you the ability to overcome any added physical disadvantage by doing a tandem handycam?


Maybe doing tandems is enough and adding a tandem handycam is too much for you to overcome at your current point of ability.This is where you would have to re-asset your potential mental/ physical ability.


The simplest of things that you have done thousands of times before now becomes out of order by adding a handycam into your routine.
You now have too apply a completely new routine to you current one.

ARE YOU READY TO DO A TANDEM HANDYCAM ?

When we add the handycam with a tandem jump, things get allot different.
Everything from - ”Have I got all my equipment ?”,To gearing up in the plane prior to exiting the aircraft.

ARE YOU READY TO DO TANDEM HANDYCAM ?

Sure your chief instructor or buddy's say you are ready, But only you know if you are ready to do Tandem handycams.
If you are hesitant against your answer, this is where you must mentally & physically reassures your actions, RE THINK - RE TRAIN -

---------------------------------------------------------------

PRE JUMP PLANING - REHEARSAL
---------------
PRE-JUMP PLANING

It is highly recommended before doing any handycam jumps, A full dress rehearsed from wearing the glove with camera also wearing a rig and going through the range of movements, exploring your dexterity on the ground.
Dirt dive your hole routine over and over again introducing situations as little as low battery to a major situation like a malfunction and your course of action.
Read the malfunction section to see course of action for a malfunction.


Before taking you first handycam up for a jump it would be useful to do a mock handycam without anything on your wrist and go through the motions as if it was on your wrist either a solo or tandem.
Then do another jump with the glove by it’s own without a camera inside. By doing this you have a better understanding what you are up against and you don’t have to worry about how good the camera angles are or if the footage is in frame.
By the time you are going to do your first handycam weather it’s a solo jump or a tandem with a licensed jumper of the front you have a sound knowledge what you are up against and have done two practice jumps prepairing you and you are already in front of what to expect.


Now you have to introduce a plan to add your handycam into your tandem routine.
---------------------------------

Lets start at the beginning,

When you are doing a tandem handycam keep in mind that the tandem comes first in sentence TANDEM HANDYCAM.


TANDEM CHECKS:
So first of all is the tandem checks,
Do the tandem checks first, the same as you have done before, Rig check,cypress on,visible altimeter,goggles,frap hat if you use one.

HANDYCAM CHECKS:
Then do all the handycam checks,
Do I have all my equipment?
Camera, glove, battery, memory stick, Audible altimeter.

Wearing a frap hat helps extremely well when doing handycam not only does a frap hat hold you audible altimeter it is also helpful to hold your camera,glove,visible altimeter and goggles for you and your passanger.It’s a hand bag that holds everything and you can put it on your head.

Now you have everything, when are you going to put it on?

Some people put on the glove straight away when they pick up there rig and keep the camera in hand till they board the aircraft.
Another useful way is to keep the frap hat around you chest strap with all extras inside except camera and keep it in hand so you can have free movement videoing your passenger.

Once you have boarded the aircraft

GEARING UP IN THE AIRCRAFT:
If you normally get ready on a tandem 2’000 feet before exiting the aircraft it is wise to put your handycam glove and camera on 1’000feet before this so you have plenty of time to get it ready and the handycam cam does not interfere with your normal tandem gear up sequence.

Whilst gearing up in thje aircraft you will have a handycam glove and camera on your wrist, you will have side straps and connectors to tighten and connect.It will be combersome in your range of movements due to the extra bulk on your wrist. You now have keep in mind that you could easly dammage your camera or another person in the aircraft by hitting them with you camera that you are not used to having on your wrist.

If the aircraft is tightly parcked with people as it normally is you might have to wait for the tandem master next to you to finnish tightening his side adjusters before doing yours. It might be also advisable to let the tandem master next to you know that you are about to tighten your side adjuster and come through with a handycam. This comunication between the tandem masters is very good practice to avoid camera damage or passangers getting hit by the camera.

If you keep a simple routine like this one , or you may introduce your own version it is wise to keep to the plan as so you don’t get out of order. Order is the key to a good plan and a good plan keeps good order.

Say, on your first actual jump during pre exit of the aircraft you find yourself out of order,stressed,confused or rushed, your mental attitude is clearly not ready for this task. Simply take the handy-cam off and pass it to the pilot and go back to your origional order you have done many times before then, re-think re-train your rehearsal.

MALFUNCTIONS

What is a malfunction with a handycam?
That is what we have too closely look at.
Is It a camera malfunction?
Clearly not...
What me must do is diffenenciate the tandem from the handycam.
Refering again to the sentance “TANDEM HANDYCAM”
The tandem must always come first and the handycam come second.This is very important...And must be a first reaction to think of the tandem aspect whenever a malfunction comes into play.


When a tandem jump goes well & good all is easy, right?
But when things go pair shaped on a tandem with a tandem handycam the first thing you MUST do is go back to basics and overcome the obstacle, simply forget that you have a handycam on your wrist and take action to overcome the obstacle.
It is easy to be overcome by your handycam and think of video angels & framing etc., even whilst a situation out of the ordinary occurs.
This simple rule must come into play and be over learned.
When a situation arises forget that you have a handycam on your wrist and take action.

It going to be eaiser to say that the camera was the last thing on your mind to your passanger when explaning you had a malfunction and that’s why the video is not all in frame.
You will never get a passanger that will argue with dissicion to forget the camera on such a situation, in fact they will appreciate your professionalism of the final outcome.


CUTAWAYS:
There have been several cutaways with the handycam and all went as normal, no snag lines or riser hold up’s, It’s not much different than jumping with a large altimeter.
--------------------------------------------------------

So what do you reckon???
Please excuse my grammer/ speling I don't have time to check it as I have a plane to catch.
It has many other topics encluding ,
HISTORY
REQUIREMENTS
EQUIPMENT
MENTAL & PHISICAL ABILITY
PRE JUMP REHEARSAL
MALFUNCTIONS
VIDEO/PHOTOS ANGLES
TIPS
THE FUTURE

ETC..

I hope we keep to the on track and work together with this.
Bob,,,

-
-
"LIFE IS GOOD - LIVE IT"
There's a little bit of EveL Knievel in all of us.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Handcam is neat. I could have absolutely sold the video from my second attempt; it was that good. A tiny PC 109 camera and a .3 lens don't hinder me in the slightest. Handcam is also very cool for cat A (old level 1) AFF from the reserve side too!

Chuck

[NSEMN8R 0]

Well, I've had mine for about a month now. I've mostly been wearing it on coach jumps and freefly jumps just for fun and to get used to it. I wore it on my first tandems on Sunday. We had 5 tandems walk in and none of them wanted video. All 5 of them bought it when we were done
It does add some things to think about, especially if you want to do a good job. I tried to get video of all the same stuff I get when doing outside video including stuff like us hooking up and all that. I think the fact that I had some experience doing video before really helps. At least I'm not trying to learn the equipment at the same time as I try to figure out a routine.

As far as flying it and getting the shot though, there's nothing to it. It's way easier than I thought it was going to be. I guess I fly with my legs more when I'm doing tandems.

I let another guy try it on Monday. I don't think he liked it as much as me. He said it was a little too much to do... I guess it's not for everybody.

[linestretch 0]

The best would be to have the student film themselves. Then, they get what they pay for, and it's not as scary for the TI. I did these when I had to ride bitch for someone crossrating....man I hate the landings.

my pics & stuff!

[NSEMN8R 0]

That's pretty cool. I have a buddy who's getting his Strong rating in a couple weeks. I'm sure I'll end up riding bitch for his phase 2's. Maybe I'll wear the hand cam on those.