Low Pull!!!!

[freeflir29 0]

"I have learned my lesson"
Lets hope so.....
"I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"
Clay

[billvon 2,421]

>just remember if you have an aad and you don't get out at altitude turn that thing off.
Airtec does not recommend doing this. It takes some truly absurd flying (or an incipient crash) to manage to exceed the firing speed at 1000 feet. We don't turn off our student's cypreses when we land with them and we've never had a problem.
-bill von

[billvon 2,421]

>I dont agree - I have been in freefall sub-1000 and it did not fire - mine fired at line stretch after dumping at approx 700ft........... so your 1000ft theory was not proved there.
If you had been stood up by your canopy at 1000 feet, the "burble" on your back would go away. The cypres would read that as a sudden 300 foot loss, and since it thinks it is in your burble (which it usually is) it would fire.
>I have gone through 1000ft on deployment several times with cypres and its never fired..........
You were either lucky or were misreading your altitude. Since skydiving altimeters are only accurate +/- 200 feet or so, you may well have been at 1200 feet, where it is less likely to fire.
-bill von

[E150 0]

I did my first low pull a week ago. I dumped at 2k and was under at 1400. My dytter was screaming at me (Flatline set at 1500).
I can now see how easy it is to go low and how muscle memory is a definate issue.

[R00tj00se 0]

Well, for all you guys that like/liked to pull low here is a bit of a 'No shit, there I was...' type story.
First I'd like to say I consider myself a very sensible jumper and so do the people I jump with (I hope). I have about 350 jumps, fly an elliptical loaded at 1.1:1 (not much you might think) and before this incident I'd already had one cut away (not packed by me). So, anyway, no shit, there I was...
Just finished a 2 way coached sit dive and I gave the wave off at 5,000ft. This was to be my second attempt at back tracking and it didn't go too well. I didn't pick my hips up so although I was moving away from my instructor I was still descending rapidly. So I decided to flip over flat and start to do a flat track. Now here comes mistake number 1. I held my flat track for too long a time - didn't realise how much altitude I had lost in that back track so that by the time I flared out of the track and checked my alti it was at about 2,200ft (I am usually waving off and going for the handle at 3,000ft).
No problem I thought - just going to be a bit low on this one. There was no feeling of oh my god, gotta pull now. I just did a normal speed wave off and then reached for the handle.
Opening seemed to be going as planned. I was brought into an upright position, all the lines were clear and the canopy was trying to inflate (slider still at the top) through the snivel. Then about a second after being brought upright I stayed on heading and the canopy did a fulll 180 and placed a twist about a foot below the slider. Straight away I knew I was getting off this thing and by the time I'd done the look, reach part of my cutaway procedure (which is 2 handed) I was spinning like a m*therf*cker (to quote my coach who saw it all happen). Ellipticals wind up quick, even lightly loaded ones.
I'd already had one cutaway so this was no big deal. It was all done very calmly.
After getting rid of the main things took a turn for the worse. Because I'd been spun about I was shot off spinning on my back and I tried to arch to get stable. Er, whats wrong, why am I not getting stable. I know, try rolling, that'll get you over onto your belly - nope, still not happening. At the same time as trying to get stable I've got the thought running through my mind - "Don't forget you were low when you pulled and you can't rely on the Cypres"
(Okay, time for a quick interlude. Why couldn't I get stable? I don't know. I mean for God's sake, I was freeflying and back tracking. I can get stable in less than a second from any of those positions. I can only presume that having less airspeed and being dis-oriented after a spinning mal contributed to it. If this had happened to someone else instead of me I probably would have said that they shouldn't be skydiving if they can't get stable but it is different in this kind of situation).
So, after a couple of seconds of trying to get stable I pulled the reserve handle thibking:
(a) Better to have something rather than nothing
(b) I don't want to be a Cypres save.
(I really did think both thtose things)
Imagine my surprise when the reserve pilot chute comes between my legs and the free bag (with the reserve still in it) pops up on my right hand side (me still on my back) and the bridle line is under my right leg with parts of it flapping around my right arm. I'll never forget seeing that freebag with the lines still stowed.
My eyes popped out of my head, my heart froze and I shouted 'Oh fuck' inside my full face.
I'm not looking for sympathy or trying to play this thing up but I honestly thought I was dead.
I remeber a post on one of hese forums which asked what you would think about if you were going in and people said they would look at the sky, think of songs etc. What a load of shit. The only thing going through my mind was 'Fuck, I've got to get this thing off my leg'.
So while pulling my right arm in to stop the bridle line from wrapping around it I reached for the pilot chute which was now tapping against my left leg. As I did this my body position changed and I went head down and feet up slightly and the pilot chute was able to find a free channel of air. I estimate that the pilot chute was stuck for about 2 secs.
The reserve (techno 128) opened with no problems and I landed about half a mile away from the main landing area near my pilot chute. Sorry, don't know what height my reserve was open at as I was busy taking deep breaths and swearing I was never going to jump again.
I jumped again the same day and am still jumping however with a lot less confidence than I used to have. What did I do wrong:
(i) went low
That is the only thing I consider I did wrong on this jump. You may consider that pulling my reserve on my back was wrong but ask yourself this question - How long do you spend recovering stability when you know you have pulled low? I think I spent the right amount of time.
So, if you think going low is fun and looks cool, just remember it could be the first link in that chain of events...
Also, if you check the statistics web site you'll see a UK jumper died under similair circumstances a few years ago. Did a low jump, Stiletto spun and he got entangled in the reserve. One more thing to think about before hopping on that elliptical.

[freeflir29 0]

That's one F**ked up story!!! Glad you lived.....I estimate you have no more than 8 lives left....."I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"
Clay

[billvon 2,421]

>Why couldn't I get stable? I don't know. I mean for God's sake, I was freeflying and back tracking. I can get stable in less than a
>second from any of those positions. I can only presume that having less airspeed and being dis-oriented after a spinning mal contributed
>to it. If this had happened to someone else instead of me I probably would have said that they shouldn't be skydiving if they can't get
>stable but it is different in this kind of situation.
That's a very valuable lesson to learn. I was amazed that I couldn't get stable after my first intentional cutaway. It took me six seconds! What was wrong with me? I didn't realize until later, after I had made several helicopter jumps (and nearly had a cypres fire on one of _them_) that you can't easily get stable without airspeed to work with.
It's all well and good to say things like "I will get stable after I cut away, before I open my reserve" but as this story points out, it's not always possible - and an unstable reserve opening is way preferable to no reserve opening (or a perfectly stable opening at 200 feet.)
-bill von

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

That's a very valuable lesson to learn. I was amazed that I couldn't get stable after my first intentional cutaway. It took me six seconds! What was wrong with me? I didn't realize until later, after I had made several helicopter jumps (and nearly had a cypres fire on one of _them_) that you can't easily get stable without airspeed to work with.
It's all well and good to say things like "I will get stable after I cut away, before I open my reserve" but as this story points out, it's not always possible - and an unstable reserve opening is way preferable to no reserve opening (or a perfectly stable opening at 200 feet.)

Exactly! There was a thread a while back about individual emergency procedures and in some cases, maybe most, people did what they had planned, what they had gone over mentally from their beginning in the sport. I wonder what's going to happen to someone who has it in their head that they will get stable before pulling the reserve. Hopefully everything works out for the best.
Maybe someone with a few cutaways can answer, is it realistic to have 2 sets of emergency procedures? One for up high and one for down low? Or does the body not work that way under stress?
It seems to me that one emergency procedure is best and I'm willing to live with the consequences of that procedure, if it's an unstable reserve opening at 3K then I'll deal with it on the way down, if it's an unstable reserve opening at 700 then I'll be happy that somethings over my head (Or maybe my side, or my feet, or whatever) and deal with that too.
-
Jim

[MarkM 0]

"You may consider that pulling my reserve on my back was wrong"
No way, totally right thing to do. Get the shit out. If it mals, you deal with it then. But you get the shit out.

[lazerq3 0]

You know what.... it scares me to think that I never thought about that. Not being stable during a cutaway and waiting to get stable. Waiting to get stable from a 1000-1500ft chop could really mean some trouble. Thank you for bring this to my attention. Guess I better go over some things in my head!!!! Makes me wonder how many other thing I'm not clearly looking at
jason

[tlshealy 0]

I always practice the two handed method, pull the cutaway and as soon as you feel yourself release, pop the silver, I'll worry about getting stable while my pilot chute is getting busy. I've only had one actual cutaway and about 12 intentionals, so far works great. I realize that there are always situations that will require different actions, but years ago I watched a friend go in trying to get stable after chopping, and it left a lasting impression.
BSBD
Tad

[freeflir29 0]

Well...I say always initiate cut away by 1500 Ft. That should be plenty for any reserve to open. Wait no more than a count of two thousand to deploy the reserve. This should always get you a pilot chute in the air by 1,000 ft. Once again...should be plenty for any reserve to open. Of course.....in an unstable condition your mileage may vary........
"I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"
Clay

[pdj6p 0]

here is more information for some of you about the cypress fire on the plane. to answer one question yes you can shut off a cypress. also the plane was not dropping all that fast. the cypress in question was a student cypress ( wich activates much higher than an expert model and also at 29mph instead of the 70 some odd of the expert.) The user guid clearly states in big bold letters to shut off a student cypress if decending in the plane. Also this was not a student so no there was not a jump master there to baby sit him. not only that but the dropzone was several hundred feet lower than the air port and the unit had not been adjusted to that difference. ( see page 21 of the user guide) any way from some of your posts I would say that there are a lot of jumpers out there that have not read the manuel.

[skymedic 0]

No, Most of us DONT use a STUDENT cypres.....
marc
"...a mind stretched with new idea's will never regain its shape"

[tigra 0]

I've read my cypres manual.
Was the jumper renting gear, or was this his own?
Where I jump, all of our student and rental gear is equipped with the expert cypres. But I have gone through static line jumpmaster training and know the limitations of the student cypres and FXC. Any jumpmaster would know to turn the unit off, and the jumper should have been briefed as well, especially if he was renting unfamiliar gear. If that was his own gear, shame on him! Same with the elevation differences.
Am I wrong in assuming that a jump pilot should be aware of this as well? If I was a jump pilot, I'd want to know what type of aads the student rigs are equipped with at the dz I was flying for.
That's just too scary........

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

the cypress in question was a student cypress ( wich activates much higher than an expert model and also at 29mph instead of the 70 some odd of the expert.)

Actually it doesn't. The Student Cypres activates at 750, you're right about the speed though, it's 29mph. The Tandem Cypres activates at approximately 1900 ft and speeds of 78 mph.
This from http://www.pia.com/SSK/cypres/faltblau.htm

Quote

CYPRES Models
Expert Cypres
Whatever you can think of under the canopy, like stalls, spiral turns, down planes, hookturns with the smallest canopies, as well as any CRW, Expert Cypres won't interfere with any activities while skydiving. It activates when it detects a rate of descent higher than 78 mph (35 m/sec) at an altitude of approx. 750ft above ground level (AGL).
Student Cypres
Specifically designed for student requirements. It will activate when the rate of descent exceeds 29mph (13m/sec). The activation altitude, however, is split. In the case of rate of descent being equal to that of freefall, the opening altitude is at approx. 750ft, as with Expert Cypres. However, should the rate of descent be lower than that of freefall but still above the limit of 29mph (e.g. with partially opened canopy), then Student Cypres activates when the altitude decreases below 1000 ft AGL.
Tandem Cypres
It activates when it detects a rate of descent higher than 78mph (35m/sec) at an altitude of approx. 1900 ft AGL.
All models are available either for 1-pin or 2-pin containers and counting in either meters or feet.
Special versions
Apart from the available standard models, we are able to design custom models for special requirements and operations.

[billvon 2,421]

>>the cypress in question was a student cypress ( wich activates much higher than an expert model . . .
>Actually it doesn't. The Student Cypres activates at 750,
Well, if you read what was in that quote, it effectively activates at 1000 feet unless you didn't pull at all. Not much higher, but significant if you're pulling at 1500 feet.
-bill von

[AndyMan 7]

While I'm rarely one to disagree with BillVon,
Those who claim to leave their student cypres's on during an in-plane descent should do well to read this:
http://www.pia.com/airtec/pr_04-11-00.htm
_Am

[skyhawk 2]

billvon do you leave thed student ones on incase you have to bail on the way down???
(o)(o)

[Aviatrr 0]

It requires, at minimum, roughly a 2500 foot per minute descent rate(which is NOT a smart thing within 1000ft of the ground, or even 2000) to cause a Student Cypres to fire.....maybe a little less depending on the airplane configuration and location of the Cypres(i.e. near the open door during a slip).. A descent rate of nearly 7000fpm would be required to cause an Expert or Tandem Cypres to fire(Exp at about 750, Tandem at about 1900) - which is certainly not normal.. Most airplanes will not maintain a stabilized descent at that high of a rate..
If the pilot is aware that there are Student Cypres on board, and flies a reasonable profile, there is NO NEED to turn the Cypres off..
Mike

[billvon 2,421]

>Those who claim to leave their student cypres's on during an in-plane descent should do well to read this:
Sorry, I was probably unclear. We use cypreses on all our student rigs, but they are the expert variety. We didn't see any advantage in the "student" flavor.
-bill von

[Pammi 0]

Quote

>just remember if you have an aad and you don't get out at altitude turn that thing off.
Airtec does not recommend doing this. It takes some truly absurd flying (or an incipient crash) to manage to exceed the firing speed at 1000 feet. We don't turn off our student's cypreses when we land with them and we've never had a problem.
-bill von

REALLY?! I had never heard this. In fact, I've always been told the opposite...to turn it off if you don't get out. Why is it not recommended, do you know?
Closing pin jewelry

[billvon 2,421]

>REALLY?! I had never heard this. In fact, I've always been told the opposite...to turn it off if you don't get out.
Only if you have the student version. The expert version doesn't need to be turned off. From the Airtec manual:
"Unlike the Expert CYPRES models, we recommend that the Student CYPRES be
switched off in the aircraft prior to descent if the jump is aborted and the student will land with the plane."
-bill von