Coach Jumps??

[Ducky 0]

Fresh off of AFF and progressing towards my A license here. Just curious what I should expect to pay for a coach jump??
Kwak

[lazerq3 0]

I would say Base price for coach to be around 20-30$. Thats without rental mind you!!! At our DZ a couch jump is 20$, however if you have to rent gear its 54$ (20$coach, 34$rental) so it will vary from DZ to DZ!!!!!
jason

[Ducky 0]

My current Dz is $20 for jump, $25 for gear rental, and so you mean it would be like another $20-$30 additional?? If so that sounds very reasonable.
Kwak

[lazerq3 0]

I'm sorry , I forgot to add in the jump ticket price to ...so for me at my DZ if I was renting it would be 68$ total ( ....14$lift tick, 20$ coach, 34$ rental). For you (if this is the way your DZ works) it would be 20$ lift tick, 25$ rental and then yes 20-30$ coach (if thats what they charge). So between 65-75$ total .!!!!
jason

[AndyMan 7]

My current DZ has a base price of $50, with discounts for bulk. 15 jumps is $38/jump. All prices include two jump tickets - one for you, one for the coach.
If there's any DZ's in your neighbourhood that offer a structured coaching program, like Skydive Univeristy, or even the extended AFF programs like at Skydive Chicago, I highly recomend these.
I did about 10 jumps of extensive coaching at Aerohio near Cleveland, the change in just a few jumps was absolutely incredible. At 80 jumps I was doing 20+ big ways.
_Am

[lazerq3 0]

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My current DZ has a base price of $50,

50$ just for the coach!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I,m sorry but that just seems rediculous!!!!!!! I mean what the hell are you paying for?? I'm not saying anything bad about your DZ but thats just seems way over priced. At our DZ the caoch is about teaching someone to fly ...not bout trying to make a buck . I dont know maybe I'm overreacting but ..............does anyone else think this high a fare price??
jason

[apoil 0]

$50 is quite low if it includes both jump tickets.

[prost 0]

Well if two jump tickets cost $40, then the coach gets $10. This seems fair.
William

[Jessica 0]

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Well if two jump tickets cost $40, then the coach gets $10. This seems fair.

Less, if the DZ takes a cut. I wish my post-AFF coached jumps had only cost $50.
Pet me! I'm harmless and cute!

[mikefarmer 0]

Ahhh, the ISP. USPA has created another rating so experienced jumpers can be paid to do what we have done for fun for years. There is probably a jumper at your local DZ who is quite qualified to teach you many skills in a two-way drill dive settting, AND do it for some beer at the end of the day.
Mike
Sky World

[freeflir29 0]

"There is probably a jumper at your local DZ who is quite qualified to teach you many skills in a two-way drill dive settting"
Yeah...but doesn't it require you to have a coach for the Alic sign off?
"I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"
Clay

[PhreeZone 15]

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but doesn't it require you to have a coach

And this is how the USPA can force people into getting thier coach ratings. If a DZ does'nt have enough AFF instructors to do student jumps and coaching, then a student might need months to get signed off, UNLESS the DZ gets some coachs. The DZ is now under pressure to have Coaches around to help students and free up thier AFF-I's for "student jumps" whie the coaches can do the "graduate" jumps.
The rating in its self is a mini-AFF-I, the only real difference is at break, you forget about the student in freefall, unlike on AFF where thats where the real fun starts. Same debrief, same exiting, same dirt diving.
Any jumper with 100 jumps SHOULD be able to do the stuff required to teach another jumper like fallrate control, turns and exits. While thier teaching might not be great, it can, and has been tought this way for years. Jumpers with 1000+ jumps are WAY more then capible, but unless they want to be AFF-I's then its a waste of their time and money to get the rating.
Personally, I'd rather jump with a coach that does it for some beer at the end of the day verus one that demands paying their slot plus some. The coaching becomes more friendly and more family like with a friend then with a professional.
I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

[mountainman 0]

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Personally, I'd rather jump with a coach that does it for some beer at the end of the day verus one that demands paying their slot plus some. The coaching becomes more friendly and more family like with a friend then with a professional.

Totally in agreement, Phree. Laura and I did our AFF and then did coach jumps with people who just had their coach rating. They were awesome to jump with, really had a good time, and only asked (sometimes) to cover the slot! Jason (jaybird) didn't even ask for the slot to be covered....but we did. Anyway, I much prefer to jump with something like this because it is cheaper, more relaxed, and you can just feel like you're jumping with a friend more than performing for an AFF Instructor.
Thanks guys!!
JumpinDuo.com...come and sign the guestbook.

[billvon 2,426]

Reading this thread is a little sad. When I started skydiving, a coach was someone you got if you wanted to go to Nationals with your four way team. After you graduated you just jumped with other people. I remember spending all day jumping with someone's girlfriend - I was excited because she had 100 jumps and I only had 40, so she was like some kind of god. Ray gave me shit when I got back to our drop zone because I hadn't been jumping with Kurt (20 jumps) - and he had a point there. It was my job to jump with Kurt, because I had more jumps than him. It wasn't right to have him just do solos.
Nowadays that sentiment seems to be gone. Students graduate and sort of flop around for a while, not knowing who to jump with or what to do. They hire coaches and hope to get better so people will want to jump with them. I think it's sort of sad that the old attitudes are gone. I find myself guilty of doing the same thing - I'll be doing AFF all day, or will join Kate and Tony for a weekend of big ways, and I find often that I can't squeeze those extra "free coach jumps" in. Or I will find myself in the role of organizer, forced to tell someone with 20 jumps that he can't be on our 8-way.
And while it's partly people like me to blame, I also see a strange attitude in recent grads, one that seems to manifest itself as an "are you good enough to teach me stuff?" sort of attitude. You can learn faster from a pro, but you can also learn from someone with 100 jumps who can't reliably side slide yet. This sort of attitude is partly fed by coaches, who say things like "you shouldn't jump with people who will teach you bad habits." The converse of that is that you _should_ sometimes jump with people who are like you, because there are some things you'll never learn from a coach (like how to dodge, or how to track and deploy safely when your partner goes 500 feet low.)
But I think it's also fueled by AFF, which teaches students that you need an expert in the air with you. In the old SL days, you were on your own - the JM was there, at best, to watch you. Once you graduated you were able to do RW for the first time, so you sought out other recent grads and tried it. When you graduate from AFF, you've already _done_ RW, and it's only natural to seek out someone with similar talent to make your next dive a success.
I don't know where I'm going with this. I just think it's sad that we've become a sport where you need to pay someone to jump with you. Heck, when I started covering someone's slot was enough to make the other person feel guilty. I hope we can get away from that, make skydiving more a sport where karma, rather than money, changes hands.
-bill von

[quade 3]

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But I think it's also fueled by AFF, which teaches students that you need an expert in the air with you.

How do you feel about the emphasis of freefall v. canopy skills?
I went AFF and I feel that the canopy control skills I learned during that process were basically -just- adequate to keep me from killing myself. I was sort of an exception in that I was already an airplane pilot and kind of understood the concepts of traffic patterns and such, but I can't even imagine what this must be like to people that have no aviation knowledge whatsoever.
I know a group of people that jump at a very popular SoCal drop zone that have hundreds of jumps, but land out in the student area EVERY jump because they're intimidated by the traffic in the expert area. They're probably very wise in their decision to do this, but they're also limiting themselves quite a bit and I think it has to do with how they were -not- taught during their student days.
Any thoughts?
quade
http://futurecam.com

[PhreeZone 15]

If you are even asking to have your slot covered, then in a way you are steping out of the friend role and into the "professional" role. I've taken quite a few low timers (13-20 jumps) out on some fun skydives. Sure, we might not have turned 10 point, or even 2, but we enjoyed the jump none the less. Did they ever pay for me? Nope.Once I got my Camera, I even shoot the video for free for everyone. Once you are cleared to jump on your own, I'll do anything I can to make new jumpers feel at home. I'm learning as much as they are on the skydive so I don't feel like they should have to pay for anything other then thier slot. Now this is going to sound bad, but I will not feel one bit bad about taking money for tandem videos. Thats a lot of work, coach jumps are work too, but was'nt there always someone there to jump with you for free after graduating? Its time to pay them back by doing the same with another group to graduate......
I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

[Sebazz1 2]

When I graduated AFF several other students graduated around the same time. Once we all had several solos under our belt we started doing two way after two way. At first they were ugly but gradually they got better. And we forged great friendships. And occasionally a very experienced jumper would come out and play with us for no charge or show us a good dive.
As an instructor these days I am very guilty of getting stuck doing work jumps all day or going on some hot RW dives. I will make an effort to go out and play with some newbies from now on. Play = no pay. I also never had to pay for a coach so the tradition needs to carry on to the next generation. I see people charging for coach jumps around the DZ quite frequently. It's kinda selfish. I feel guilty if you grab me a beer at the end of the day
Cheers Mr. Von to a great post..............
Seb

[mikefarmer 0]

Damn right! Except the beer part. I'll drink anybody's beer!
Mike
Sky World

[AndyMan 7]

My story is that I started at a very small, very friendly drop zone. I didn't pay for coaching there, simply beause I couldn't pay for coaching there. The "coaching" was exactly as you describe, the experienced people took the less experienced people and worked with them, first one on one, later in groups.
Then I left the small DZ and when to a big DZ, where they had Skydive University. It also was much more dificult to get the more advanced people to jump with me. At first I balked at paying for coach jumps. The whole concept offended me. I longed for that small friendly DZ where I could just go jump.
As I was stewing, I was also watching. I slowly started to appreciate that coaching wasn't just paying people to jump with me. There was serious on the ground instruction, all through the process. Eventually, I decided to give it a try, largely out of necesity. The short part is that once I signed up for Skydive University I saw my skills progress at a rate I'd never seen. At a hundred jumps I was being invited on jumps I never would've imagined.
I've now moved onto another ger DZ, and Brandon Park of MonkeyClaw is the resident freefly coach. Will I be buying coach jumps? You bet your ass I will.
But I also love jumping with newbies... It's just so much fun.
_Am

[Jimbo 0]

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and Brandon Park of MonkeyClaw is the resident freefly coach.

Who of what? From http://www.monkeyclaw.com/who.html

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Monkey Claw is made up of Glen "Stuey" Newman, Timothy Miller, Bert Navarrete (aka Spirt), Adam Rosen and Heath Richardson. Another person that help us out in times of need is Jay Humphries, a former monkey. We generally hang at Cross Keys, NJ, where we have a freefly school and also load organize and generally just have a lot of fun.

Incidentally, I've seen the results of coaching from Heath Richardson - looks to be worth every penny. I'll be hooking up with him this spring.

[apoil 0]

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Ahhh, the ISP. USPA has created another rating so experienced jumpers can be paid to do what we have done for fun for year

Yeah, everyone loves to trash the USPA, but they didn't do it to make money, they did it to address real inadequacies in the way people were trained particularly between AFF and their A license.
Remember? They were the things people used to bitch at the USPA about before they introduced the ISP. Lack of canopy control training. Lack of a consistent sequence of instruction in basic relative work. Not every dropzone has a culture where brand new graduates are taken in and encouraged.
I was given the option of skydive U. But an optional expensive coach jump versus having fun with my equally inexperienced friends was pretty much a no brainer.
The coach program has a sound foundation.
Australia has an even more intensive mandatory sequence required for your B license. People grumble about it, but no one feels it's unnecessary, and you can go to any drop zone and round up 8 people with 100 jumps and crank out points and turn pieces with them. (unless they are freefliers :)

[Shark 0]

At my dropzone "grad" students can only jump with skydivers who are rated or jump solo. We have been following the ISP nearly since its inception. I feel that it adds structure to the student's learning and is goal oriented. Some students I've been with have good flying skills with such few jumps, while others are barely adequate and "should" be supervised by an experienced jumper; one who typically holds an instructional rating. We cannot over stress safety when educating the less experienced skydivers. Sure, there are many experienced jumpers at the dz more qualified than the instructional staff. But many of them choose not to be instructors and would rather do an LO or a hot 4 way. They would rather leave it to those who are rated and enjoy teaching the newbies how to fly and eventually get invited on the hot skydive. When I look around our dz it seems that half the dropzone has some kind of instructional rating. Or staff includes JMs with AFF and Tandem ratings. Often they are called away to do a revenue producing tandem, while their graduate student has to wait. This is where our "coach" comes in. As one that is rated, do I deserve to get paid? Yes, but I'd also do it for free. We spend a lot of time on the ground breifing, and dirt diving the skydive. We take the time to quiz, share experiences, and answer questions. Also, there are a lot of "rock stars" roaming around willing to help you "gratis" as time permits. Remember, most of us only get paid when we jump, the hours of ground instruction and dirt dive are not paid, in most circumstances. I can go a full day going over quizzes, TLOs, dirt dives, etc., and probably only get to make one jump! Some days I may not even get to jump. But you know what? I love it. Heck, I'm still learning! As far as rw coaching, we have a free, 2 way skills camp were all of the coaches are paying their own slot and donating their time. I tell all my students to find me after they get licensed and I'll do some rw skills jumps with them and I'll pay my own slot. Yeah, it sucks to drop some bucks to learn "group" freefall skills, but it'll pay off in time.
Mark
USPA Coach '02
D-24499

[billvon 2,426]

>How do you feel about the emphasis of freefall v. canopy skills?
I think both are equally either good or bad, depending on how you look at it. When I graduate someone from AFF, my metric is - can they safely exit an airplane, do a 2 way with a relatively experienced jumper, break off safely, open stable and at the right altitude, and land a Manta safely on the dropzone? If yes, they are at least qualified to begin learning on their own. In the "olden" days, that was more than sufficient for canopy control, since their first canopy after the student canopy would be a Cloud or a Cruislite, and they're just not that much different from a Manta (or Cloud XL, or DC5, or whatever other monstrosity we used for students back then.)
Nowadays that's not true any more. Manta habits aren't much use even for someone's first canopy, which is often a 1:1 slightly elliptical canopy. In fact, I've seen cases where mantas teach you the _wrong_ habits, and still they transition quickly to the higher performance canopy. We see 160 lb jumpers getting 170-190 sq ft Spectres regularly now, right off student status. And just as AFF is not adequate preparation for freeflying, the canopy control they learn isn't adequate for their new canopy.
There are two solutions, I think. One is a program like Roger Nelson's, where they are taught from jump 3 how to land a HP canopy. It adds risk in the beginning, but produces safer HP canopy pilots. A secondary program like the ISP is the other option, but it's only as good as the dropzone - many do not push or support ISP.
So basically I think that AFF teaches the minimum neccesary skills to do basic RW and land a Manta. I don't think you could eliminate any part of either the freefall or the canopy training and still produce safe skydivers, so I don't think one is overly emphasized over the other. Both skills are taught to a pretty minimal level.
-bill von

[Shark 0]

Bill,
Great perspective!

[billvon 2,426]

>As I was stewing, I was also watching. I slowly started to appreciate that coaching wasn't just paying people
> to jump with me. There was serious on the ground instruction, all through the process. Eventually, I decided to give it a try,
>largely out of necesity. The short part is that once I signed up for Skydive University I saw my skills progress
>at a rate I'd never seen. At a hundred jumps I was being invited on jumps I never would've imagined.
Yes, and this is why I think the loss of 'free coaching' (if you want to call it that) is due to both the student and the teacher. You can get much more detailed training if you pay for it, especially if they are careful to give you X minutes of creeper work and Y minutes of debriefing. Lots of people like this and don't mind spending the money.
Still, it feels like something's missing there. I think it's important to be a child in skydiving for a little while, where you're on your own, learning things at your own pace, making mistakes, relying on others to help you learn. You make far better friends, and learn far more about people and the sport, when they are your 2-way partner as opposed to your employee. It can be frustrating - I remember a time around 50 jumps where nothing I did worked, and it seemed like no one would jump with me. I learned anyway, after a lot of really bad 2-ways with other people like me. It would have gone faster with a paid coach, but I'm not sure I would have learned as much, learned just how many things don't work. I think it resulted me in being a better jumper in 100 jumps than a coached jumper in 50 jumps, even one who could turn the same number of points as me in a 4-way. (Plus which, it cost me less - which was a big deal when I started.)
-bill von