Robert99 37 #23726 July 4, 2011 QuoteGeorger: What does your having the passenger list have to do with any of this? I have a feeling we will be denied the priviledge of posting about the meeting or its contents. Especially since there are so many 'writers" or wannabees out there. Each question will have to have - a discuss or confidentiallity code with an expiration date. Meaning he will determine what we can discuss publically before we walk out of the room and when it can be discussed. Robt99: Why the hell do I have to get you mad for you to stop fooling around with the words - it was beginning to sound lilke you were in a washing machine - whish whish whish whish. Go back and read your posts to other individuals - you were all over the map - NO one actually knew what you were saying and you made it about whatever you wanted to. I will take the BOLD and CAPs as YOUR statement of opinion...and hope you stand by it without being whishy washy. Jo, Is it possible for you to explain exactly what in hell you are talking about? Robert Nicholson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #23727 July 4, 2011 QuoteOkay Robert99 - we are going to carve the modified statement in Stone. We need for this to be specific. Please sign and return with any changes you make. 1. The weather from Seattle to Portland was NOT socked in! Different areas and elevations had different cloud coverage. 2. The cloud cover was NOT consistent from Seattle to Portland! 3. The cloud coverage from South of Portland to Reno is NOT relevant. 4. Cooper told the flight crew to climb to 10,000 feet out of Seattle.... They had to level off at 7000 feet and slow down so that Cooper could get the stairs down. (At one time the elevation was as low as 6300 ft.) After they crossed the Columbia they proceeded to increase the elevation. 5. Prior to approaching Portland and Vancouver - the altitude was such the co-pilot was able to state he thought he could see Portland/Vancouver... it is believed the plane was being flow from the C0-Pilots seat on the right side of the plane. The Co-pilot was new to that route. Robert - you might want to read the above very carefully - this has to be as factual as it can be. Perhaps you might like to add the techical language I am unable to do. I have a reason for this. They need to be put in question format. I suggest everyone prepare specific questions about the flight from Seattle to Portland. WE will select five to present to the co-pilot so we can stop messing around and get something done. I believe he will answer 5 of the most pertinent questions - and we need to keep them simple and direct and they must be the MOST important questions that need to be answered....MYTH versus FACT needs to be established regarding the flight from Seattle to Portland. Jo, YOU ARE MAKING CLAIMS THAT I DID NOT MAKE! 1. The weather from Seattle to Portland was not socked in. At take off from Seattle, the ground visibility was about 15 miles with light rain showers in the area. I do not know what the cloud or sky cover information was. The Portland ground visibility was about 10-15 miles at the time the airliner flew through that area. The area probably had light rain showers at ground level also (the information is not complete). Ckret's information is the only known sky cover information. 2. I am not aware of anyone making the statement you claim here. Where did this come from? 3. The cloud coverage south of Portland is not relevant to Cooper's jump since he jumped before the airliner got to Portland. 4. Cooper told the flight crew to climb to 10,000 after take off from Seattle. They had to level off and slow down at 7000 feet so that Cooper could get the stairs down. I have no idea where the rest of your allegations came from. In actual fact, the airliner reported it was level at 10,000 feet at 7:53:34 PM PST and it was still north of the Mayfield (now Malay) intersection at that point. That intersection is 41 nautical miles north of the present day BTG VORTAC and a long way north of the Columbia River. There is no record of the airliner descending to 6300 feet after reaching 10,000 feet until it was landing in Reno. 5. You didn't get this information from me or from anyone I know. What is your source for it? It doesn't make any difference if the co-pilot was new to the route. All the co-pilot was doing was keeping the needles on his instrument panel where they should be. It's as simple as that. Jo, If you want to be factual then stop fabricating statements. Robert Nicholson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farflung 0 #23728 July 4, 2011 So I’m reading the reviews about Gray’s book and the continuing theme of crackpots seeing conspiracies at every bend and searching the backwoods for a body in the third chapter called ‘The Curse’. There does not appear to be much new stuff about Cooper and I’m afraid of what my reaction will be while reading this book. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lxEi2lI6tc I want Cooper to be all manly man and jump with Tina then land with her in a rural, southwest Washington, Jacuzzi. Then something gets blowed up, real good and Cooper and Tina escape in a BRS that is attached to the Jacuzzi because Cooper was in the CIA, Special Ops and developed the BRS before anyone, you don’t even know. But the Jacuzzi lands in Ariel where Cooper and Tina walk into the bar and buy it. You see they can afford it because they have all that money from the hijacking so it makes sense now. OK, OK here’s the secret DBC Thread formula: Say two things that are true like- Cooper jumped from a 727 and Tina verified he wore a black raincoat. These two true statements can be used to coattail ANY other single element you want to introduce, like landing in a Jacuzzi. Go ahead read recent posts or all the way back to the beginning, you’ll see the pattern. It was used quite effectively on Star Trek as well, when referencing some character they would say he was worse than Hitler, Caligula and Gronk of Remus-936. I guess it makes for good fiction and there is a market for such stuff so that makes it acceptable and honorable to some. The facts are far too boring. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #23729 July 4, 2011 QuoteSkyjack 71 says in part: Quote'You, Georger have shown yourself to be objective and neutral - you can be a baboon once in awhile, but I believe that you like myself want REAL answers - regardless of who Cooper was. You are NOT motivated for the notoriety or a book...' Blevins Retorts as though I was PERSONALLY addressing him: QuoteWill you stop about the book thing? When people ask legit questions, I (mostly) try to give legit answers. That's it. I never claimed to have ALL the answers. If I did, David Letterman would call me. My main interest here is The Truth. Maybe it was Kenny, maybe it wasn't. I can't say for sure. I do have a short fuse for baloney in the Cooper case. The Janet Fable, for example. But I'm open to ideas that can be supported with verifiable evidence, whether they favor Ken Christiansen as the skyjacker or not. ============================================== Dear Blevins: I was talking to Georger and stating WHY he is someone I chose to involve in the next step. He is NOT writing a book to my knowledge and he does at least look at the case objectively since he is not chasing a specific suspect. WHY, did you take this post so personal? I was NOT talking about YOU, but referring to individuals who have specific subjects (you are ONE of them) and those who seem to be involved in this chase only to make a name for themselves. There are many such individuals and they DO NOT post here. Do you have any idea HOW many writers monitor this thread? I am currently aware of 7 besides yourself - and a couple of these contacted me personally to ask some questions about the crime. These questions were NOT Weber specific, but he was discussed briefly. I am polite to these individuals and I check them out to see what they have written and try to figure out what their interest is in researching Cooper. They were not enquiring of me for a book about Weber as I have been very specific about this - do the research and know the crime and know Weber (in other words do NOT "parrot" other articles or books when referring to him. If you can't research him and get the information correct - then don't mention him or my search. Usually this is ignored and I let it go when I read the publication - but, should someone quote me on something that I specifically told them they COULD NOT USE - then they will face a lawsuit. In a weak moment I told one writer about a specific incident and he wanted to use this for notoriety (as there would be NO OTHER reason to use this incidental piece of information). I called and wrote him - and he understands that piece of information cannot be use or I will sue the hell out of him. I also consulted my attorney who has a copy of the email I sent to this writer and his response. The information does NOT add to or take away from Weber. It was personal and was only being used for sensationalism. So I learned the hard way - if it is not something I want the world to know then keep it to myself and do NOT trust everyone I talk to or public forums. So far nothing particularly damaging has been mentioned when they talk about me or Weber, but I hold my breath every time I find a new book is coming out or has come out. Mostly I find they have taken what they say about Weber strickly from the public media which was sometimes incorrect, but that is nothing I can fix after the fact.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #23730 July 4, 2011 QuoteJo, you write: "Sluggo is NOT acceptable because he is too bias[ed] - both pro and con." Jo, darling, I am not going to play the health card like a certain person has been doing for the past year on this thread. However, I am getting along in years and probably have lost some brain cells along the way. Nevertheless, you have aroused my morbid curiosity. Would/Could you explain the logic, if any, in the statement quoted above about Sluggo? And in plain language please. I'll be forever grateful. Robert Nicholson Mr. Nicholson - I am NOT playing a health card. I had surgery nine weeks ago and tomorrow I have the first of many appts to address the other problem. The surgery is so specific - I have been told it cannot be done by any Surgeon in our area - that is a large area. So I guess I just played a Flush. By the way I am not a "Darling". That is a bird and if you are going to compare me to an animal use a stalker. You will have to discuss your question with Sluggo outside of the thread - I am sure he will have an answer for you. Part of this has to do with his over sensitive reaction to some things I say and his virtual down play of important factors because "he" doesn't think they mean anything. Sluggo has been an immense value to me in helping me to gather information and maps and for that I am forever grateful. I like Sluggo. Personality wise - Sluggo and I -CLASH, I get mixed emotions about what he is thinking or saying. He is a VERY nice and intelligent person and tries to be objective - but, like myself he lets too much of his own feelings get in the way. Two such individuals in one room is chaos along with intolerance and that is NOT productive. Sluggo is a very very intelligent man, but if someone is super sensitive - they just cannot be around me for very long - because I will say and do what I have to do and I do NOT want to have to be on guard about choosing my words or saying what I have to say. I have a job to complete and I can't worry about hurting someone elses feelings. His knowledge of the case is surpassed by only one other individual I know and have met.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #23731 July 4, 2011 What I am trying to do - is pose 5 question sfor someone regarding the flilght and the ground cover and weather and media inaccuracies. 1. The visiblity from Seattle to Oregon. 2. What did the Pilot see. 3. What was the lowest altitude and at what point did that occur. East and North of Battleground? East and North of Lake Merwin? Where they futher East than reported when they approach Lake Meriwin - There were reports South and West of Cougar, plus a siting I cannot make go away (note this siting does NOT help my cause). (Robert your accounting DOES not agree with what I was told yrs ago by SOMEONE who knows) 4. At what point did they feel the bump and the time is not relevant unless we know the relay time of information...and the accuracy of the time being used on the plane and time on the ground. 5. Was the plane East of Portland PDX when it crossed the Columbia. What I am trying to do is compile 5 questions for someone (also stating what claims to be known as an answer) and see what this person is willing to provide without pressure or co-ercion. Perhaps the memory of 40 yrs ago is gone - but it will the last shot to hear these things from the horses mouth.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smokin99 0 #23732 July 4, 2011 Quote So I’m reading the reviews about Gray’s book and the continuing theme of crackpots seeing conspiracies at every bend and searching the backwoods for a body in the third chapter called ‘The Curse’. There does not appear to be much new stuff about Cooper and I’m afraid of what my reaction will be while reading this book. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lxEi2lI6tc I want Cooper to be all manly man and jump with Tina then land with her in a rural, southwest Washington, Jacuzzi. Then something gets blowed up, real good and Cooper and Tina escape in a BRS that is attached to the Jacuzzi because Cooper was in the CIA, Special Ops and developed the BRS before anyone, you don’t even know. But the Jacuzzi lands in Ariel where Cooper and Tina walk into the bar and buy it. You see they can afford it because they have all that money from the hijacking so it makes sense now. OK, OK here’s the secret DBC Thread formula: Say two things that are true like- Cooper jumped from a 727 and Tina verified he wore a black raincoat. These two true statements can be used to coattail ANY other single element you want to introduce, like landing in a Jacuzzi. Go ahead read recent posts or all the way back to the beginning, you’ll see the pattern. It was used quite effectively on Star Trek as well, when referencing some character they would say he was worse than Hitler, Caligula and Gronk of Remus-936. I guess it makes for good fiction and there is a market for such stuff so that makes it acceptable and honorable to some. The facts are far too boring. I'm glad i decided to visit dropzone today. I so needed that laugh. Your pics today definitely deserve a spot on 377's Fridge of Farflung Fame. I'm still laughing out loud but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #23733 July 4, 2011 QuoteQuoteJo, you write: "Sluggo is NOT acceptable because he is too bias[ed] - both pro and con." Jo, darling, I am not going to play the health card like a certain person has been doing for the past year on this thread. However, I am getting along in years and probably have lost some brain cells along the way. Nevertheless, you have aroused my morbid curiosity. Would/Could you explain the logic, if any, in the statement quoted above about Sluggo? And in plain language please. I'll be forever grateful. Robert Nicholson Mr. Nicholson - I am NOT playing a health card. I had surgery nine weeks ago and tomorrow I have the first of many appts to address the other problem. The surgery is so specific - I have been told it cannot be done by any Surgeon in our area - that is a large area. So I guess I just played a Flush. By the way I am not a "Darling". That is a bird and if you are going to compare me to an animal use a stalker. You will have to discuss your question with Sluggo outside of the thread - I am sure he will have an answer for you. Part of this has to do with his over sensitive reaction to some things I say and his virtual down play of important factors because "he" doesn't think they mean anything. Sluggo has been an immense value to me in helping me to gather information and maps and for that I am forever grateful. I like Sluggo. Personality wise - Sluggo and I -CLASH, I get mixed emotions about what he is thinking or saying. He is a VERY nice and intelligent person and tries to be objective - but, like myself he lets too much of his own feelings get in the way. Two such individuals in one room is chaos along with intolerance and that is NOT productive. Sluggo is a very very intelligent man, but if someone is super sensitive - they just cannot be around me for very long - because I will say and do what I have to do and I do NOT want to have to be on guard about choosing my words or saying what I have to say. I have a job to complete and I can't worry about hurting someone elses feelings. His knowledge of the case is surpassed by only one other individual I know and have met. Jo, Thank you for the explanation. As I understand it, you are saying that Sluggo cannot be manipulated and that, in turn, impedes the progress of your Mission on this planet. Robert Nicholson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #23734 July 4, 2011 QuoteWhat I am trying to do - is pose 5 question sfor someone regarding the flilght and the ground cover and weather and media inaccuracies. 1. The visiblity from Seattle to Oregon. 2. What did the Pilot see. 3. What was the lowest altitude and at what point did that occur. East and North of Battleground? East and North of Lake Merwin? Where they futher East than reported when they approach Lake Meriwin - There were reports South and West of Cougar, plus a siting I cannot make go away (note this siting does NOT help my cause). (Robert your accounting DOES not agree with what I was told yrs ago by SOMEONE who knows) 4. At what point did they feel the bump and the time is not relevant unless we know the relay time of information...and the accuracy of the time being used on the plane and time on the ground. 5. Was the plane East of Portland PDX when it crossed the Columbia. What I am trying to do is compile 5 questions for someone (also stating what claims to be known as an answer) and see what this person is willing to provide without pressure or co-ercion. Perhaps the memory of 40 yrs ago is gone - but it will the last shot to hear these things from the horses mouth. Jo, Let me repeat some information for you for about the 10th time. 1. The visibility from Seattle to Oregon? You already know the ground visibility at Seattle and at Portland. It is reasonable to assume that the ground visibility at points on V-23 between Seattle and Portland would be about the same. That is, about 10+ miles, which is a good visibility in that part of the country. 2. What did the pilot see? Probably a lot of clouds, maybe some stars, perhaps some rain, maybe some lights on the ground as he was climbing out of Seattle, and a lot of lights on his instrument panel. And that is no joke. 3. What was the lowest altitude and at what point did that occur? If you define altitude as height above ground, the lowest altitude would be zero in Seattle and Reno. If you define altitude as height above sea level, the lowest altitude would be 433 feet which is the official elevation of the Seattle airport. The Seattle airport is north and east of both the Battleground VORTAC and Lake Merwin. Further east of what when they approach[ed] Lake Merwin? "(Robert your accounting DOES not agree with what I was told yrs ago by SOMEONE who knows)" What are you talking about? My accounting of what? I am glad that 'SOMEONE" knows. In fact, I have always wanted to meet "SOMEONE" (or ANYONE) who knows. Can you arrange such a meeting? 4. The time of the bump could easily be viewed on the cockpit clock. If it was relayed, it would be a stated clock time and a relay time would not be relevant. Typically, in that day and age, a control tower or other such facility would tell the crew the time (so they could adjust their clock) as hours, minutes, and quarter minutes. But the most accurates times of all are those in the ATC radio transcripts and they are accurate to the second (or very close to it). 5. Can you give a single reason why the plane would be east of the Portland PDX when it crossed the Columbia? It makes no difference if you are referring to the present day BTG VORTAC or the Portland airport. Why would the aircraft add a number of miles to its flight path to go east of Portland, and interfere with traffic on two or three other Victor airways, when it could take a simple track on the west side of Portland? Honored to be of service. Robert Nicholson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #23735 July 5, 2011 QuoteQuoteCan you give a single reason why the plane would be east of the Portland PDX when it crossed the Columbia? It makes no difference if you are referring to the present day BTG VORTAC or the Portland airport. Why would the aircraft add a number of miles to its flight path to go east of Portland, and interfere with traffic on two or three other Victor airways, when it could take a simple track on the west side of Portland? Robt you seemingly have a answer for everything, but you have never talked to the major players who were on that plane. 1 minute or 2 minutes differance in time does change where the plane is at a given time - it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. What is points are used to map the route also make a difference. I was told by a major player that the plane crossed the Columbia between Vancouver and Cames. There was more conversation about Troutdale airport and the altitude from plane to ground was low. I do not "get" all the technical terms. Without telling you where this came from consider: 1. Search and rescue capabilities. 2. Do no harm (this means going around the heavily populated areas because there is a BOMB on board. 3. Has Cooper left the plane? The route proposed by this thread is off because I know the plane crossed the Columbia between Vancouver and Cames and I will never forget who told me this and when. This person had NO reason to lie to me and this person knew where the plane was. Troutdale Industrial was mentioned during this same conversation. Portland DID NOT want the plane flying overhead with a bomb. If you knew there was a bomb on a plane - would you allow it to fly over populated areas unless you could be reasonably assured Cooper and the Bomb were gone? Go in low and hope he jumps. I believe from the sitings this is exactly what happened.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #23736 July 5, 2011 Quote Jo, Thank you for the explanation. As I understand it, you are saying that Sluggo cannot be manipulated and that, in turn, impedes the progress of your Mission on this planet. Robert Nicholson That is NOT what I said and nor does anything Sluggo say impede me in anyway. I don't have time for the likes of you. I have MORE important things to do rather than answer you stupid retoric...which by the way GOES no where and for which YOU have NO proof. It is all just YOUR opinion and how is one to know what COLORS your opinion? Maybe money - a pay-off to distract the thread and the public. End of Conversation.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #23737 July 5, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteCan you give a single reason why the plane would be east of the Portland PDX when it crossed the Columbia? It makes no difference if you are referring to the present day BTG VORTAC or the Portland airport. Why would the aircraft add a number of miles to its flight path to go east of Portland, and interfere with traffic on two or three other Victor airways, when it could take a simple track on the west side of Portland? Robt you seemingly have a answer for everything, but you have never talked to the major players who were on that plane. 1 minute or 2 minutes differance in time does change where the plane is at a given time - it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. What is points are used to map the route also make a difference. I was told by a major player that the plane crossed the Columbia between Vancouver and Cames. There was more conversation about Troutdale airport and the altitude from plane to ground was low. I do not "get" all the technical terms. Without telling you where this came from consider: 1. Search and rescue capabilities. 2. Do no harm (this means going around the heavily populated areas because there is a BOMB on board. 3. Has Cooper left the plane? The route proposed by this thread is off because I know the plane crossed the Columbia between Vancouver and Cames and I will never forget who told me this and when. This person had NO reason to lie to me and this person knew where the plane was. Troutdale Industrial was mentioned during this same conversation. Portland DID NOT want the plane flying overhead with a bomb. If you knew there was a bomb on a plane - would you allow it to fly over populated areas unless you could be reasonably assured Cooper and the Bomb were gone? Go in low and hope he jumps. I believe from the sitings this is exactly what happened. Jo, On the matter of time, the cockpit crew could glance at the clock, see that it reads time X, and then get on the radio and tell everyone that we felt a pressure bump from the stairs at time X. No adjustments to the time are need for a delay in making the radio call. Even a real estate agent should be able to figure that out. "Go in low and hope he jumps." Cooper told the crew to fly at 10,000 feet and they did, or very close to it, all the way from north of the Mayfield Intersection to the Reno area. The flight crew always reported their altitude as 10,000 feet until they got to northern California where they climbed to 11,000 feet to get over the mountains to Reno. The matter of not flying over populated areas with a bomb on board was discussed by the crew even before they took off from Seattle. Rataczak suggested that they get above the overcast and then head out over the Pacific ocean. As they were approaching the Portland area they were on the west side of Portland and that would be the logical side to bypass Portland. It doesn't make sense to fly an additional number of miles just to pass on the east side of Portland. On your other information, you have more "secrets" and undercover contacts than Wiki-leaks. Robert Nicholson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #23738 July 5, 2011 QuoteI don't think the plane passed over the main part of Portland, either. Probably no further west than where the 405 bridge is now. I can't say for certain. I haven't studied the route much beyond where most people believe Cooper jumped. This is because I support the theory that Cooper jumped north of Vancouver and south of Merwin Lake. Most of the work I've done on this case has been about questioning witnesses and then verifying their statements. Or in some cases, breaking their lies and alibis. Rataczak has said 305 was seven or eight minutes flying time north of Vancouver when Cooper jumped. I think this is pretty accurate, and I believe that's what Paul Sortum and his people figured as well. South of Merwin Lake, north of Vancouver. I think he jumped pretty soon after the flight passed Merwin Lake Dam. From the sky, those lights are VERY bright, and I don't think anything except a complete white-out would keep them from being seen. The weather reports are accurate enough from WeatherUnderground, but the problem is the weather itself. It was an in-between kind of day. Light showers off and on, clouds pretty thick but occasional breaks here and there, yada, yada, yada. No extremes. This is what makes it tough to weed out certain details about the hijacking, no kidding. The frickin' weather. It couldn't be a complete, dark, NW storm. It certainly wasn't a bright, sunny day with a full moon later. Everything is murky, divided, depressing, and typical for Western Washington weather in November. The weather actually raises more questions than it answers in the Cooper case, at least sometimes. In November 2009, I made it a point to be in the Portland/Vancouver area so I could see the actual weather for myself. It rained off and on all day ever day and was very similiar to the weather described for the day of the hi-jacking in 1971. Robert Nicholson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #23739 July 5, 2011 QuoteQuote Jo, Thank you for the explanation. As I understand it, you are saying that Sluggo cannot be manipulated and that, in turn, impedes the progress of your Mission on this planet. Robert Nicholson That is NOT what I said and nor does anything Sluggo say impede me in anyway. I don't have time for the likes of you. I have MORE important things to do rather than answer you stupid retoric...which by the way GOES no where and for which YOU have NO proof. It is all just YOUR opinion and how is one to know what COLORS your opinion? Maybe money - a pay-off to distract the thread and the public. End of Conversation. Jo, You don't have time for me? We must have exchanged 20 e-mails just within the last week. Proof? Where is your proof? Me distract this thread? You are just being devious. Money? A payoff? I must have missed that memo, please resend. Robert Nicholson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites EVickiW 0 #23740 July 5, 2011 http://www.lawofficer.com/article/news/repeat-interview-and-unused-tr A cold cased closed after 54 years.Melvin Luther Wilson - Missing Person since September 1971: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03QLnFvk8Fs Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 20 #23741 July 5, 2011 It was a big deal to arrange and execute this test, but why did they use a sled? A real jumper would have given more realistic data and could have done different things while on the steps to see if a pressure bump could be produced without exiting. It would have been a cinch to find a volunteer for a jet jump. Airtwardo would have been there in a minute, right Airtwardo? 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JerryThomas 0 #23742 July 6, 2011 hI Just checking in. Hope all of your health is fine. You too Jo/ Blevines/Geoger/slugo/ Robert 99 Oh! you too Quade, Orange one Shelly says Hi. Any way I'm Mining this summer not much luck so far. production is down to 4 ounces a day. after cost only 3 ounces is profit still fun. Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 20 #23743 July 6, 2011 $4500 a day in profit and you say "not much luck"? Jerry, you gotta be kidding. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Farflung 0 #23744 July 6, 2011 You are not out in the field working a mine you’re just sitting behind a keyboard and speculating about gold production. Why question this? There are millions and millions of small scale mines in Oregon all producing pounds of gold daily. The ore content is low, around 45% gold with the rest being processed out. You may think that $4500 after operating expenses is a fair amount, but they earn every penny through hard work and intelligence. This I know, just trust me because I have talked to gold miners around 9000 times, so yeah. Even your local newspaper is named for the material used to amalgamate gold which was mined in the area. It was a magical inert substance that the miners would burn off the gold in a frying pan set in a campfire. If they stayed out in the field too long they would develop ‘Gold Fever’ and start to act crazy; because it is gold that makes you insane you see. All documented in medical journals and books. Try to reflect on the prose of one Mark Twain (or John Hammond) who said: “A gold mine is a hole in the ground, owned by a liar.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #23745 July 6, 2011 By 19:50 the plane is climbing again through 9000 feet for assigned altitude of 10000 feet. The above happened in a span of 16 minutes. The stairs appear to have been opened 8 minutes into the event and 29 minutes before he jumped (20:11 approx). Cooper wanted an inexplicable level off at 7000. Cooper communicated trying to lower the stairs, level off and climb resume through some unidentified form (Tina or PA). Cooper had a wide time window to jump, yet delayed (assumed). Cooper wanted an inexplicable level off at 7000. For visibility reasons? To get his bearings? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #23730 July 4, 2011 QuoteJo, you write: "Sluggo is NOT acceptable because he is too bias[ed] - both pro and con." Jo, darling, I am not going to play the health card like a certain person has been doing for the past year on this thread. However, I am getting along in years and probably have lost some brain cells along the way. Nevertheless, you have aroused my morbid curiosity. Would/Could you explain the logic, if any, in the statement quoted above about Sluggo? And in plain language please. I'll be forever grateful. Robert Nicholson Mr. Nicholson - I am NOT playing a health card. I had surgery nine weeks ago and tomorrow I have the first of many appts to address the other problem. The surgery is so specific - I have been told it cannot be done by any Surgeon in our area - that is a large area. So I guess I just played a Flush. By the way I am not a "Darling". That is a bird and if you are going to compare me to an animal use a stalker. You will have to discuss your question with Sluggo outside of the thread - I am sure he will have an answer for you. Part of this has to do with his over sensitive reaction to some things I say and his virtual down play of important factors because "he" doesn't think they mean anything. Sluggo has been an immense value to me in helping me to gather information and maps and for that I am forever grateful. I like Sluggo. Personality wise - Sluggo and I -CLASH, I get mixed emotions about what he is thinking or saying. He is a VERY nice and intelligent person and tries to be objective - but, like myself he lets too much of his own feelings get in the way. Two such individuals in one room is chaos along with intolerance and that is NOT productive. Sluggo is a very very intelligent man, but if someone is super sensitive - they just cannot be around me for very long - because I will say and do what I have to do and I do NOT want to have to be on guard about choosing my words or saying what I have to say. I have a job to complete and I can't worry about hurting someone elses feelings. His knowledge of the case is surpassed by only one other individual I know and have met.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #23731 July 4, 2011 What I am trying to do - is pose 5 question sfor someone regarding the flilght and the ground cover and weather and media inaccuracies. 1. The visiblity from Seattle to Oregon. 2. What did the Pilot see. 3. What was the lowest altitude and at what point did that occur. East and North of Battleground? East and North of Lake Merwin? Where they futher East than reported when they approach Lake Meriwin - There were reports South and West of Cougar, plus a siting I cannot make go away (note this siting does NOT help my cause). (Robert your accounting DOES not agree with what I was told yrs ago by SOMEONE who knows) 4. At what point did they feel the bump and the time is not relevant unless we know the relay time of information...and the accuracy of the time being used on the plane and time on the ground. 5. Was the plane East of Portland PDX when it crossed the Columbia. What I am trying to do is compile 5 questions for someone (also stating what claims to be known as an answer) and see what this person is willing to provide without pressure or co-ercion. Perhaps the memory of 40 yrs ago is gone - but it will the last shot to hear these things from the horses mouth.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smokin99 0 #23732 July 4, 2011 Quote So I’m reading the reviews about Gray’s book and the continuing theme of crackpots seeing conspiracies at every bend and searching the backwoods for a body in the third chapter called ‘The Curse’. There does not appear to be much new stuff about Cooper and I’m afraid of what my reaction will be while reading this book. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lxEi2lI6tc I want Cooper to be all manly man and jump with Tina then land with her in a rural, southwest Washington, Jacuzzi. Then something gets blowed up, real good and Cooper and Tina escape in a BRS that is attached to the Jacuzzi because Cooper was in the CIA, Special Ops and developed the BRS before anyone, you don’t even know. But the Jacuzzi lands in Ariel where Cooper and Tina walk into the bar and buy it. You see they can afford it because they have all that money from the hijacking so it makes sense now. OK, OK here’s the secret DBC Thread formula: Say two things that are true like- Cooper jumped from a 727 and Tina verified he wore a black raincoat. These two true statements can be used to coattail ANY other single element you want to introduce, like landing in a Jacuzzi. Go ahead read recent posts or all the way back to the beginning, you’ll see the pattern. It was used quite effectively on Star Trek as well, when referencing some character they would say he was worse than Hitler, Caligula and Gronk of Remus-936. I guess it makes for good fiction and there is a market for such stuff so that makes it acceptable and honorable to some. The facts are far too boring. I'm glad i decided to visit dropzone today. I so needed that laugh. Your pics today definitely deserve a spot on 377's Fridge of Farflung Fame. I'm still laughing out loud but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #23733 July 4, 2011 QuoteQuoteJo, you write: "Sluggo is NOT acceptable because he is too bias[ed] - both pro and con." Jo, darling, I am not going to play the health card like a certain person has been doing for the past year on this thread. However, I am getting along in years and probably have lost some brain cells along the way. Nevertheless, you have aroused my morbid curiosity. Would/Could you explain the logic, if any, in the statement quoted above about Sluggo? And in plain language please. I'll be forever grateful. Robert Nicholson Mr. Nicholson - I am NOT playing a health card. I had surgery nine weeks ago and tomorrow I have the first of many appts to address the other problem. The surgery is so specific - I have been told it cannot be done by any Surgeon in our area - that is a large area. So I guess I just played a Flush. By the way I am not a "Darling". That is a bird and if you are going to compare me to an animal use a stalker. You will have to discuss your question with Sluggo outside of the thread - I am sure he will have an answer for you. Part of this has to do with his over sensitive reaction to some things I say and his virtual down play of important factors because "he" doesn't think they mean anything. Sluggo has been an immense value to me in helping me to gather information and maps and for that I am forever grateful. I like Sluggo. Personality wise - Sluggo and I -CLASH, I get mixed emotions about what he is thinking or saying. He is a VERY nice and intelligent person and tries to be objective - but, like myself he lets too much of his own feelings get in the way. Two such individuals in one room is chaos along with intolerance and that is NOT productive. Sluggo is a very very intelligent man, but if someone is super sensitive - they just cannot be around me for very long - because I will say and do what I have to do and I do NOT want to have to be on guard about choosing my words or saying what I have to say. I have a job to complete and I can't worry about hurting someone elses feelings. His knowledge of the case is surpassed by only one other individual I know and have met. Jo, Thank you for the explanation. As I understand it, you are saying that Sluggo cannot be manipulated and that, in turn, impedes the progress of your Mission on this planet. Robert Nicholson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #23734 July 4, 2011 QuoteWhat I am trying to do - is pose 5 question sfor someone regarding the flilght and the ground cover and weather and media inaccuracies. 1. The visiblity from Seattle to Oregon. 2. What did the Pilot see. 3. What was the lowest altitude and at what point did that occur. East and North of Battleground? East and North of Lake Merwin? Where they futher East than reported when they approach Lake Meriwin - There were reports South and West of Cougar, plus a siting I cannot make go away (note this siting does NOT help my cause). (Robert your accounting DOES not agree with what I was told yrs ago by SOMEONE who knows) 4. At what point did they feel the bump and the time is not relevant unless we know the relay time of information...and the accuracy of the time being used on the plane and time on the ground. 5. Was the plane East of Portland PDX when it crossed the Columbia. What I am trying to do is compile 5 questions for someone (also stating what claims to be known as an answer) and see what this person is willing to provide without pressure or co-ercion. Perhaps the memory of 40 yrs ago is gone - but it will the last shot to hear these things from the horses mouth. Jo, Let me repeat some information for you for about the 10th time. 1. The visibility from Seattle to Oregon? You already know the ground visibility at Seattle and at Portland. It is reasonable to assume that the ground visibility at points on V-23 between Seattle and Portland would be about the same. That is, about 10+ miles, which is a good visibility in that part of the country. 2. What did the pilot see? Probably a lot of clouds, maybe some stars, perhaps some rain, maybe some lights on the ground as he was climbing out of Seattle, and a lot of lights on his instrument panel. And that is no joke. 3. What was the lowest altitude and at what point did that occur? If you define altitude as height above ground, the lowest altitude would be zero in Seattle and Reno. If you define altitude as height above sea level, the lowest altitude would be 433 feet which is the official elevation of the Seattle airport. The Seattle airport is north and east of both the Battleground VORTAC and Lake Merwin. Further east of what when they approach[ed] Lake Merwin? "(Robert your accounting DOES not agree with what I was told yrs ago by SOMEONE who knows)" What are you talking about? My accounting of what? I am glad that 'SOMEONE" knows. In fact, I have always wanted to meet "SOMEONE" (or ANYONE) who knows. Can you arrange such a meeting? 4. The time of the bump could easily be viewed on the cockpit clock. If it was relayed, it would be a stated clock time and a relay time would not be relevant. Typically, in that day and age, a control tower or other such facility would tell the crew the time (so they could adjust their clock) as hours, minutes, and quarter minutes. But the most accurates times of all are those in the ATC radio transcripts and they are accurate to the second (or very close to it). 5. Can you give a single reason why the plane would be east of the Portland PDX when it crossed the Columbia? It makes no difference if you are referring to the present day BTG VORTAC or the Portland airport. Why would the aircraft add a number of miles to its flight path to go east of Portland, and interfere with traffic on two or three other Victor airways, when it could take a simple track on the west side of Portland? Honored to be of service. Robert Nicholson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #23735 July 5, 2011 QuoteQuoteCan you give a single reason why the plane would be east of the Portland PDX when it crossed the Columbia? It makes no difference if you are referring to the present day BTG VORTAC or the Portland airport. Why would the aircraft add a number of miles to its flight path to go east of Portland, and interfere with traffic on two or three other Victor airways, when it could take a simple track on the west side of Portland? Robt you seemingly have a answer for everything, but you have never talked to the major players who were on that plane. 1 minute or 2 minutes differance in time does change where the plane is at a given time - it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. What is points are used to map the route also make a difference. I was told by a major player that the plane crossed the Columbia between Vancouver and Cames. There was more conversation about Troutdale airport and the altitude from plane to ground was low. I do not "get" all the technical terms. Without telling you where this came from consider: 1. Search and rescue capabilities. 2. Do no harm (this means going around the heavily populated areas because there is a BOMB on board. 3. Has Cooper left the plane? The route proposed by this thread is off because I know the plane crossed the Columbia between Vancouver and Cames and I will never forget who told me this and when. This person had NO reason to lie to me and this person knew where the plane was. Troutdale Industrial was mentioned during this same conversation. Portland DID NOT want the plane flying overhead with a bomb. If you knew there was a bomb on a plane - would you allow it to fly over populated areas unless you could be reasonably assured Cooper and the Bomb were gone? Go in low and hope he jumps. I believe from the sitings this is exactly what happened.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #23736 July 5, 2011 Quote Jo, Thank you for the explanation. As I understand it, you are saying that Sluggo cannot be manipulated and that, in turn, impedes the progress of your Mission on this planet. Robert Nicholson That is NOT what I said and nor does anything Sluggo say impede me in anyway. I don't have time for the likes of you. I have MORE important things to do rather than answer you stupid retoric...which by the way GOES no where and for which YOU have NO proof. It is all just YOUR opinion and how is one to know what COLORS your opinion? Maybe money - a pay-off to distract the thread and the public. End of Conversation.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #23737 July 5, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteCan you give a single reason why the plane would be east of the Portland PDX when it crossed the Columbia? It makes no difference if you are referring to the present day BTG VORTAC or the Portland airport. Why would the aircraft add a number of miles to its flight path to go east of Portland, and interfere with traffic on two or three other Victor airways, when it could take a simple track on the west side of Portland? Robt you seemingly have a answer for everything, but you have never talked to the major players who were on that plane. 1 minute or 2 minutes differance in time does change where the plane is at a given time - it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. What is points are used to map the route also make a difference. I was told by a major player that the plane crossed the Columbia between Vancouver and Cames. There was more conversation about Troutdale airport and the altitude from plane to ground was low. I do not "get" all the technical terms. Without telling you where this came from consider: 1. Search and rescue capabilities. 2. Do no harm (this means going around the heavily populated areas because there is a BOMB on board. 3. Has Cooper left the plane? The route proposed by this thread is off because I know the plane crossed the Columbia between Vancouver and Cames and I will never forget who told me this and when. This person had NO reason to lie to me and this person knew where the plane was. Troutdale Industrial was mentioned during this same conversation. Portland DID NOT want the plane flying overhead with a bomb. If you knew there was a bomb on a plane - would you allow it to fly over populated areas unless you could be reasonably assured Cooper and the Bomb were gone? Go in low and hope he jumps. I believe from the sitings this is exactly what happened. Jo, On the matter of time, the cockpit crew could glance at the clock, see that it reads time X, and then get on the radio and tell everyone that we felt a pressure bump from the stairs at time X. No adjustments to the time are need for a delay in making the radio call. Even a real estate agent should be able to figure that out. "Go in low and hope he jumps." Cooper told the crew to fly at 10,000 feet and they did, or very close to it, all the way from north of the Mayfield Intersection to the Reno area. The flight crew always reported their altitude as 10,000 feet until they got to northern California where they climbed to 11,000 feet to get over the mountains to Reno. The matter of not flying over populated areas with a bomb on board was discussed by the crew even before they took off from Seattle. Rataczak suggested that they get above the overcast and then head out over the Pacific ocean. As they were approaching the Portland area they were on the west side of Portland and that would be the logical side to bypass Portland. It doesn't make sense to fly an additional number of miles just to pass on the east side of Portland. On your other information, you have more "secrets" and undercover contacts than Wiki-leaks. Robert Nicholson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #23738 July 5, 2011 QuoteI don't think the plane passed over the main part of Portland, either. Probably no further west than where the 405 bridge is now. I can't say for certain. I haven't studied the route much beyond where most people believe Cooper jumped. This is because I support the theory that Cooper jumped north of Vancouver and south of Merwin Lake. Most of the work I've done on this case has been about questioning witnesses and then verifying their statements. Or in some cases, breaking their lies and alibis. Rataczak has said 305 was seven or eight minutes flying time north of Vancouver when Cooper jumped. I think this is pretty accurate, and I believe that's what Paul Sortum and his people figured as well. South of Merwin Lake, north of Vancouver. I think he jumped pretty soon after the flight passed Merwin Lake Dam. From the sky, those lights are VERY bright, and I don't think anything except a complete white-out would keep them from being seen. The weather reports are accurate enough from WeatherUnderground, but the problem is the weather itself. It was an in-between kind of day. Light showers off and on, clouds pretty thick but occasional breaks here and there, yada, yada, yada. No extremes. This is what makes it tough to weed out certain details about the hijacking, no kidding. The frickin' weather. It couldn't be a complete, dark, NW storm. It certainly wasn't a bright, sunny day with a full moon later. Everything is murky, divided, depressing, and typical for Western Washington weather in November. The weather actually raises more questions than it answers in the Cooper case, at least sometimes. In November 2009, I made it a point to be in the Portland/Vancouver area so I could see the actual weather for myself. It rained off and on all day ever day and was very similiar to the weather described for the day of the hi-jacking in 1971. Robert Nicholson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #23739 July 5, 2011 QuoteQuote Jo, Thank you for the explanation. As I understand it, you are saying that Sluggo cannot be manipulated and that, in turn, impedes the progress of your Mission on this planet. Robert Nicholson That is NOT what I said and nor does anything Sluggo say impede me in anyway. I don't have time for the likes of you. I have MORE important things to do rather than answer you stupid retoric...which by the way GOES no where and for which YOU have NO proof. It is all just YOUR opinion and how is one to know what COLORS your opinion? Maybe money - a pay-off to distract the thread and the public. End of Conversation. Jo, You don't have time for me? We must have exchanged 20 e-mails just within the last week. Proof? Where is your proof? Me distract this thread? You are just being devious. Money? A payoff? I must have missed that memo, please resend. Robert Nicholson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVickiW 0 #23740 July 5, 2011 http://www.lawofficer.com/article/news/repeat-interview-and-unused-tr A cold cased closed after 54 years.Melvin Luther Wilson - Missing Person since September 1971: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03QLnFvk8Fs Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 20 #23741 July 5, 2011 It was a big deal to arrange and execute this test, but why did they use a sled? A real jumper would have given more realistic data and could have done different things while on the steps to see if a pressure bump could be produced without exiting. It would have been a cinch to find a volunteer for a jet jump. Airtwardo would have been there in a minute, right Airtwardo? 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryThomas 0 #23742 July 6, 2011 hI Just checking in. Hope all of your health is fine. You too Jo/ Blevines/Geoger/slugo/ Robert 99 Oh! you too Quade, Orange one Shelly says Hi. Any way I'm Mining this summer not much luck so far. production is down to 4 ounces a day. after cost only 3 ounces is profit still fun. Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 20 #23743 July 6, 2011 $4500 a day in profit and you say "not much luck"? Jerry, you gotta be kidding. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farflung 0 #23744 July 6, 2011 You are not out in the field working a mine you’re just sitting behind a keyboard and speculating about gold production. Why question this? There are millions and millions of small scale mines in Oregon all producing pounds of gold daily. The ore content is low, around 45% gold with the rest being processed out. You may think that $4500 after operating expenses is a fair amount, but they earn every penny through hard work and intelligence. This I know, just trust me because I have talked to gold miners around 9000 times, so yeah. Even your local newspaper is named for the material used to amalgamate gold which was mined in the area. It was a magical inert substance that the miners would burn off the gold in a frying pan set in a campfire. If they stayed out in the field too long they would develop ‘Gold Fever’ and start to act crazy; because it is gold that makes you insane you see. All documented in medical journals and books. Try to reflect on the prose of one Mark Twain (or John Hammond) who said: “A gold mine is a hole in the ground, owned by a liar.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #23745 July 6, 2011 By 19:50 the plane is climbing again through 9000 feet for assigned altitude of 10000 feet. The above happened in a span of 16 minutes. The stairs appear to have been opened 8 minutes into the event and 29 minutes before he jumped (20:11 approx). Cooper wanted an inexplicable level off at 7000. Cooper communicated trying to lower the stairs, level off and climb resume through some unidentified form (Tina or PA). Cooper had a wide time window to jump, yet delayed (assumed). Cooper wanted an inexplicable level off at 7000. For visibility reasons? To get his bearings? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #23746 July 6, 2011 QuoteGeorge Nuttall states in his book, page 95, that Ralph Himmelsbach (quoting the copilot) told Nuttall's research associate, Harry Grady, that the cloud cover below them in the Portland/Vancouver area was so dense that they could not see landmarks or even the glow of city lights. Robert Nicholson Ralph and the helo were all ocver the place, flrew north 20 miles or more... so Ralph's report applies to where? I dunno. His report cannot apply to PDX. Attached is the hourly record for PDX on 24 Nov 71. Ckret's report conflicts with Ralph's report? Maybe not. Who knows "where" Ralph is talking about. He may be speaking about what it was like 20 miles north of PDX-VCR ? And no report to date specifies what conditions were like above 5000 feet. It is those conditions which bear directly on what Cooper could see or not see from Malay south. (*I know where the winds aloft records are but I have never been able to pry them lose from the beaurocrats who have them ... ) There is one interesting aspect of the hourly records below, however. That is the shifts in wind direction which were happening that day almost hourly ... from SE to SSW to SW and back again. These are surface wind records. We still have no data whatver about winds aloft above 5000 feet. That data is crucial to this case. Who cxares what the surface winds were doing! It is the winds aloft which have always been crucial to this case and for that we have nothing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 20 #23747 July 6, 2011 Georger wrote: QuoteThese are surface wind records. We still have no data whatver about winds aloft above 5000 feet. That data is crucial to this case. Who cxares what the surface winds were doing! It is the winds aloft which have always been crucial to this case and for that we have nothing. It's a real longshot but I wonder if any researchers were running Doppler vertical wind profilers in that area back then. Some friends and I were doing HAHO jumps from 18,000 ft over Monterey CA area. With the Pacific Ocean so close, I wanted to take serious look at winds aloft historical data to insure against our being carried out to sea and becoming fish food. FAA and NOAA data was sparse and not very geograpically specific. I found an obscure US NAVY POSTGRAD SCHOOL website that was connected to a research Doppler wind profiler that was running 24/7/365 right next to our DZ unbeknownst to any jumpers. It gave current and historical info. Another possibility might be recording anemometers that were located on moutain peaks in the suspected DBC jump area. In West Coast spring and summer NW prevailing wind weather, you can sometimes get winds aloft that are coming from a radically different direction than ground winds. In winter SE storm winds, my experience is that these radical direction shifts are very uncommon in winds aloft compared to ground winds. I judge it by looking at cloud movements. I know its not very scientific, just anecdotal. Where is Orange? 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farflung 0 #23748 July 6, 2011 First of all let me say, I don’t know, I have no pet candidate for the crime. Secondly, Cooper asked for 10,000 feet pronto (according to the transcripts) after takeoff. Based on that I don’t think visibility or getting his bearings would be a consideration since he could have asked for XXXX feet per minute climb initially. The attribute that did not match his ‘plan’ was having the stairs down for takeoff. That became priority ONE because all the other demands were satiated. Again, I am guessing here with as little weirdness as possible. Now he has ‘target fixation’ on those stairs. Tina may have explained or showed him how to use them but it didn’t work. That placard getting torn from four rivets has more male frustration than windblast from my assumption (I’m assuming here). Next assumptions (assumptions that is) are that the aircraft’s ascent will cause a pressure differential which will impede the stairs opening. This is true for the over wing hatches that use the pressure differential as a sealing device; not so a cargo door or aft stairs. The pressure differential (assuming the Co-pilot was trying to pressurize) would have aided in blowing OPEN the stairs since they are neither pressurized or a ‘plug’ type of aircraft closure. All that aside, what is the delta between 7,000 feet and 10,000 feet in force? At this point I want to know why an aircraft savvy Cooper would need to be shown how to open the stairs. Why isn’t this second nature for ‘Mr. Boeing/Northwest employee/CIA Special Ops flying expert’ guy? And why did he want an intermediate level off at 7,000 feet since that would not help lowering the stairs? All this occurred in the first eight minutes of flight. All my ASSUMPTIONS (I’m assuming here by the way) point to a person who did not know how to operate the stairs on a 727. He did not understand the dynamic of pressurization or how a higher altitude could have been a problem solver (again assuming the pressurization system was operating). Those stairs not being lowered before takeoff betrayed a great deal about DB Cooper and the depth of his knowledge from my viewpoint, yet made him more invincible in others. Oh well. Add to this Cooper answered the pilot on the PA feature versus the cockpit isolate or alert/call button is a second strike against the experienced hijacker school of assumption. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #23749 July 6, 2011 QuoteQuoteGeorge Nuttall states in his book, page 95, that Ralph Himmelsbach (quoting the copilot) told Nuttall's research associate, Harry Grady, that the cloud cover below them in the Portland/Vancouver area was so dense that they could not see landmarks or even the glow of city lights. Robert Nicholson Ralph and the helo were all ocver the place, flrew north 20 miles or more... so Ralph's report applies to where? I dunno. His report cannot apply to PDX. Attached is the hourly record for PDX on 24 Nov 71. Ckret's report conflicts with Ralph's report? Maybe not. Who knows "where" Ralph is talking about. He may be speaking about what it was like 20 miles north of PDX-VCR ? And no report to date specifies what conditions were like above 5000 feet. It is those conditions which bear directly on what Cooper could see or not see from Malay south. (*I know where the winds aloft records are but I have never been able to pry them lose from the beaurocrats who have them ... ) There is one interesting aspect of the hourly records below, however. That is the shifts in wind direction which were happening that day almost hourly ... from SE to SSW to SW and back again. These are surface wind records. We still have no data whatver about winds aloft above 5000 feet. That data is crucial to this case. Who cxares what the surface winds were doing! It is the winds aloft which have always been crucial to this case and for that we have nothing. Georger, The quote in Nuttall's book applies to the Portland/Vancouver "metropolitian" area. That is, the built up area that had houses, other buildings, and lights in those two cities. The quote in Nuttall's book only addresses the fact that there was a dense cloud cover and overcast that prevented the airliner, flying at about 10,000 feet, from even seeing a "cloud glow" from those two cities. The ground conditions are meaningless in this case. However, the cloud layers, or sky cover, reported in Ckret's information and elsewhere are meaningful. As recently discussed in other posts, Ckret is saying that there was an overcast at 5000 feet and a broken cloud layer (which in this case qualifies as a "ceiling") at 3500 feet above sea level. As Georger also states, there is apparently no information in circulation at this point that discusses the cloud information between 5000 and 10,000 feet. I think I have seen some winds aloft for the lower altitudes that was put out by Ckret. However, at 10,000 feet the wind was about 25-30 knots from the southwest (or 225 degrees true). If you can obtain better winds aloft information, please post it. Robert Nicholson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #23750 July 6, 2011 QuoteFirst of all let me say, I don’t know, I have no pet candidate for the crime. Secondly, Cooper asked for 10,000 feet pronto (according to the transcripts) after takeoff. Based on that I don’t think visibility or getting his bearings would be a consideration since he could have asked for XXXX feet per minute climb initially. The attribute that did not match his ‘plan’ was having the stairs down for takeoff. That became priority ONE because all the other demands were satiated. Again, I am guessing here with as little weirdness as possible. Now he has ‘target fixation’ on those stairs. Tina may have explained or showed him how to use them but it didn’t work. That placard getting torn from four rivets has more male frustration than windblast from my assumption (I’m assuming here). Next assumptions (assumptions that is) are that the aircraft’s ascent will cause a pressure differential which will impede the stairs opening. This is true for the over wing hatches that use the pressure differential as a sealing device; not so a cargo door or aft stairs. The pressure differential (assuming the Co-pilot was trying to pressurize) would have aided in blowing OPEN the stairs since they are neither pressurized or a ‘plug’ type of aircraft closure. All that aside, what is the delta between 7,000 feet and 10,000 feet in force? At this point I want to know why an aircraft savvy Cooper would need to be shown how to open the stairs. Why isn’t this second nature for ‘Mr. Boeing/Northwest employee/CIA Special Ops flying expert’ guy? And why did he want an intermediate level off at 7,000 feet since that would not help lowering the stairs? All this occurred in the first eight minutes of flight. All my ASSUMPTIONS (I’m assuming here by the way) point to a person who did not know how to operate the stairs on a 727. He did not understand the dynamic of pressurization or how a higher altitude could have been a problem solver (again assuming the pressurization system was operating). Those stairs not being lowered before takeoff betrayed a great deal about DB Cooper and the depth of his knowledge from my viewpoint, yet made him more invincible in others. Oh well. Add to this Cooper answered the pilot on the PA feature versus the cockpit isolate or alert/call button is a second strike against the experienced hijacker school of assumption. Farflung, the book by Tosaw discusses the interaction between Cooper and Tina in the most detail. Cooper specified that the airplane was not to be pressurized, he gave a specific flap setting and airspeed, and climb to altitude. He also said to open the stairs (to some extent) before take off. Rataczak argued with Cooper that the airplane could not taken off with the stairs even partially down. Finally, Cooper agreed to have the stairs locked up before take off. But he immediately told Tina that he knew the airliner could take off with the stairs down. When Cooper had trouble getting the stairs down, either he or the flight crew suggested leveling off at 7000 feet and slowing the airplane down. If I remember correctly, Rataczak slowed the aircraft to about 140 knots indicated airspeed. Why would Cooper have trouble lowering the stairs? The stair control panel on this specific airliner may have been different from any that Cooper had encountered before, such as in special operations. So this may have been a new panel for him and he even had trouble following Tina's instructions. Robert Nicholson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
