Farflung 0
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Farflung 0
377,
Message received loud and clear.
When will I learn to avoid that third rail? It’s like I have a pain/wedgie fetish (which I do by the way) by suggesting some ordinary abilities associated with Cooper when all the truth seekers know full well he was a secretly trained, convict smokejumper and former Boeing engineer with a Black Ops background in munitions construction. Just look at the evidence or at least make some up.
I’m ready to accept the fact that the aircraft could have been anywhere and traveling any velocity and observed by anyone, since Super-Cooper-Man was at the aft stairs. Sure McNally jumped without any training and got a ride to a motel from the Sheriff after landing and called for a ride home. I wonder what he said…….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63K-wEaGxRc&feature=related
Message received loud and clear.
When will I learn to avoid that third rail? It’s like I have a pain/wedgie fetish (which I do by the way) by suggesting some ordinary abilities associated with Cooper when all the truth seekers know full well he was a secretly trained, convict smokejumper and former Boeing engineer with a Black Ops background in munitions construction. Just look at the evidence or at least make some up.
I’m ready to accept the fact that the aircraft could have been anywhere and traveling any velocity and observed by anyone, since Super-Cooper-Man was at the aft stairs. Sure McNally jumped without any training and got a ride to a motel from the Sheriff after landing and called for a ride home. I wonder what he said…….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63K-wEaGxRc&feature=related
Robert99 37
QuoteRobert99,
I guess I could treat this like an algebra equation and strike out the elements that cancel each other out in order to identify the unknown.
First – If the aft door (not stairs) were open so Cooper could jump the request for not being pressurized is redundant. As effective as the pressurization system is on a 727, that six by two foot hole in the back of the pressure vessel would render the system impotent. Asking for the aft stairs down and to be depressurized is like asking for the gear door to be deployed and the gear to be down. If Cooper knows this airframe that well he would have known that.
Specific flap position and airspeed was requested and don’t forget about that gear down requirement which is yet another Hollywood cliché manifesting in the Cooper crime. Once again this appears to be redundant since the speed limitation is lower for all flap settings than it is for the landing gear.
This all appears to be something that could be learned in twenty minutes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=644Ar2ZEp4A
If I ‘know’ something, I doooooo it. If I knew how to open the aft stairs there would be no ‘Mother May I’ game being played. After brake release (since I got nothing to lose) I would have grabbed that red stair handle and moved it to the cryptically named OPEN detent with or without the Pilot’s permission.
Farflung, You are correct, of course. Cooper did some redundant things as you say.
In my humble opinion (forgive me Jo), Cooper appeared to have some specific KNOWLEDGE of the 727 systems but didn't seem to have any appreciable EXPERIENCE with those systems. At least in part, this could have been determined from the aircraft manuals as you say.
But how did Cooper know that the rear stairs could be lowered in flight in the first place? As I understand it, the 727 was the only airliner in use in the USA in 1971 where that could be done. It would seem from this that Cooper had some knowledge of the Boeing/CIA/Special Operations testing and/or operations in southeast Asia. Remember that Cooper specifically asked the agent that he bought the ticket from if the inbound aircraft was a 727 and was informed that it was (no aircraft substitutions that day).
Why did he ask for the landing gear to be kept down? That may have a simple answer. Perhaps Cooper felt that keeping the gear down would insure that the aircraft would be kept at a reasonably low speed. Maybe the flaps could have been retracted without him noticing it, but the sound of the landing gear going into the wheel wells would probably have gotten his attention.
I don't know if any of the leading edge devices would be automatically deployed with 15 degrees of flaps. Perhaps the outboard slats would have been but I kinda doubt if the Krueger flaps would have.
If I recall my days of riding as a passenger on 727s correctly, the outboard leading edge slats were the last or among the very last things to be retracted. And this didn't happen until the pilot had completed the initial climb out from the airport and was interested in increasing the speed and getting above 10,000 feet and into 250+ knot territory. This may or may not have something to do with the 170 KIAS that Cooper specified.
Robert Nicholson
Farflung 0
Robert99,
Richard LaPoint did a similar hijacking less than 2 months after Cooper.
He demanded a couple chutes, helmet and $50,000 before he jumped out of a Hughes Airwest - DC-9. Yep, the DC-9 had aft stairs and was in service since the mid 60’s. How did he know a DC-9 was jumpable? No CIA or Black Ops just another plane with an aft exit.
He was a former Paratrooper but that skill did not help him identify the SAR transceiver that activated when the chute deployed. A pair of F-111s tracked the signal and the police captured him within a couple hours.
I’m sure he was a Cooper copy cat but he did not need years of working at Douglas to understand how to open or have the Stewardess open these stairs. I get the feeling that everyone thinks this is some sort of complex operation with alert horns and flashing lights with a control panel bristling with levers and knobs. It really is very simple and ordinary. There is one lever which has OPEN, CLOSE and Neutral (perhaps) along with a toggle (momentary) switch that may run a small motor to seat the cams to the fuselage posts. Then a handle to turn the cams (90 or 180 degrees) and lock the door with the lever placed in the neutral position. Is this really worthy of so much angst, study and loathing?
I simply don’t see the complexity being assigned to operating a door.
The only thing Cooper didn’t get was the door down for takeoff and that became an issue for him that the hijackers to follow simply didn’t suffer from. Why is Cooper the one with all this aft stair experience and flight experience yet he becomes frazzled over the door and needs an intermediate level off and butchers a chute for line and jumps with one sewn shut. I’m not a jumper but I know that force of habit (after years in the Air Force) would have me digging out the data card and checking repack dates even if I was hijacking a plane.
I know how to use an Interphone system also, mainly because it impresses chicks and is wicked easy to operate. Cooper using the PA function is a sign of someone that has not used such a device before. The PA function is limited to the cargo/PAX compartment and oddly the lavatories but not the cockpit. Was Cooper all confused about this also? It gets hard for me to believe all these elements as indicative of anyone with more than the most casual association with aviation. Again, I don’t know jack about skydiving so I believe (perhaps foolishly) those who are experienced and seem to think Cooper was some sort of expert.
It’s the same with this endless speculation about where the Co-pilot said they were. If he was asked an aviation based question he may give a response in kind. I can’t imagine that he didn’t glance at the HSI and note the bearing and DME to PDX VORTAC rather than this endless talk about being over the suburbs of Portland or wherever. Pilots staring out the cockpit then with bug eyed glee announcing while pointing “There it is!” belongs in Hollywood productions and not in instrument flying. Yet this stuff refuses to not only die, it won’t betray its origin. Strange.
Richard LaPoint did a similar hijacking less than 2 months after Cooper.
He demanded a couple chutes, helmet and $50,000 before he jumped out of a Hughes Airwest - DC-9. Yep, the DC-9 had aft stairs and was in service since the mid 60’s. How did he know a DC-9 was jumpable? No CIA or Black Ops just another plane with an aft exit.
He was a former Paratrooper but that skill did not help him identify the SAR transceiver that activated when the chute deployed. A pair of F-111s tracked the signal and the police captured him within a couple hours.
I’m sure he was a Cooper copy cat but he did not need years of working at Douglas to understand how to open or have the Stewardess open these stairs. I get the feeling that everyone thinks this is some sort of complex operation with alert horns and flashing lights with a control panel bristling with levers and knobs. It really is very simple and ordinary. There is one lever which has OPEN, CLOSE and Neutral (perhaps) along with a toggle (momentary) switch that may run a small motor to seat the cams to the fuselage posts. Then a handle to turn the cams (90 or 180 degrees) and lock the door with the lever placed in the neutral position. Is this really worthy of so much angst, study and loathing?
I simply don’t see the complexity being assigned to operating a door.
The only thing Cooper didn’t get was the door down for takeoff and that became an issue for him that the hijackers to follow simply didn’t suffer from. Why is Cooper the one with all this aft stair experience and flight experience yet he becomes frazzled over the door and needs an intermediate level off and butchers a chute for line and jumps with one sewn shut. I’m not a jumper but I know that force of habit (after years in the Air Force) would have me digging out the data card and checking repack dates even if I was hijacking a plane.
I know how to use an Interphone system also, mainly because it impresses chicks and is wicked easy to operate. Cooper using the PA function is a sign of someone that has not used such a device before. The PA function is limited to the cargo/PAX compartment and oddly the lavatories but not the cockpit. Was Cooper all confused about this also? It gets hard for me to believe all these elements as indicative of anyone with more than the most casual association with aviation. Again, I don’t know jack about skydiving so I believe (perhaps foolishly) those who are experienced and seem to think Cooper was some sort of expert.
It’s the same with this endless speculation about where the Co-pilot said they were. If he was asked an aviation based question he may give a response in kind. I can’t imagine that he didn’t glance at the HSI and note the bearing and DME to PDX VORTAC rather than this endless talk about being over the suburbs of Portland or wherever. Pilots staring out the cockpit then with bug eyed glee announcing while pointing “There it is!” belongs in Hollywood productions and not in instrument flying. Yet this stuff refuses to not only die, it won’t betray its origin. Strange.
Robert99 37
QuoteRobert99,
Richard LaPoint did a similar hijacking less than 2 months after Cooper.
He demanded a couple chutes, helmet and $50,000 before he jumped out of a Hughes Airwest - DC-9. Yep, the DC-9 had aft stairs and was in service since the mid 60’s. How did he know a DC-9 was jumpable? No CIA or Black Ops just another plane with an aft exit.
He was a former Paratrooper but that skill did not help him identify the SAR transceiver that activated when the chute deployed. A pair of F-111s tracked the signal and the police captured him within a couple hours.
I’m sure he was a Cooper copy cat but he did not need years of working at Douglas to understand how to open or have the Stewardess open these stairs. I get the feeling that everyone thinks this is some sort of complex operation with alert horns and flashing lights with a control panel bristling with levers and knobs. It really is very simple and ordinary. There is one lever which has OPEN, CLOSE and Neutral (perhaps) along with a toggle (momentary) switch that may run a small motor to seat the cams to the fuselage posts. Then a handle to turn the cams (90 or 180 degrees) and lock the door with the lever placed in the neutral position. Is this really worthy of so much angst, study and loathing?
I simply don’t see the complexity being assigned to operating a door.
The only thing Cooper didn’t get was the door down for takeoff and that became an issue for him that the hijackers to follow simply didn’t suffer from. Why is Cooper the one with all this aft stair experience and flight experience yet he becomes frazzled over the door and needs an intermediate level off and butchers a chute for line and jumps with one sewn shut. I’m not a jumper but I know that force of habit (after years in the Air Force) would have me digging out the data card and checking repack dates even if I was hijacking a plane.
I know how to use an Interphone system also, mainly because it impresses chicks and is wicked easy to operate. Cooper using the PA function is a sign of someone that has not used such a device before. The PA function is limited to the cargo/PAX compartment and oddly the lavatories but not the cockpit. Was Cooper all confused about this also? It gets hard for me to believe all these elements as indicative of anyone with more than the most casual association with aviation. Again, I don’t know jack about skydiving so I believe (perhaps foolishly) those who are experienced and seem to think Cooper was some sort of expert.
It’s the same with this endless speculation about where the Co-pilot said they were. If he was asked an aviation based question he may give a response in kind. I can’t imagine that he didn’t glance at the HSI and note the bearing and DME to PDX VORTAC rather than this endless talk about being over the suburbs of Portland or wherever. Pilots staring out the cockpit then with bug eyed glee announcing while pointing “There it is!” belongs in Hollywood productions and not in instrument flying. Yet this stuff refuses to not only die, it won’t betray its origin. Strange.
Farflung, Oddly enough, I have not been able to find a mention of the means LaPoint used to exit the Hughes DC-9. None of the articles that I can find online about that incident mention it.
Regardless of the reasons, Cooper did have problems getting the stairs down.
On the matter of the parachutes, pages 30-32 of Tosaw's book describes Cooper's examination of the parachutes before take off with Tina standing beside him. Tina stated that Cooper took out the packing card and examined it. She also stated that Cooper put on the military style parachute and adjusted the straps in a manner that led her to believe it was an everday occurrence for him.
I don't have any personal experience using airline type Interphone systems. However, based on my personal experience in general aviation type aircraft, yelling in the face of chicks does not particularly impress them, at least in a favorable manner.
I am in complete agreement with you on your last paragraph.
Robert Nicholson
Quote
Ralph and the helo were all ocver the place, flrew
north 20 miles or more... so Ralph's report applies
to where? I dunno.
His report cannot apply to PDX. Attached is the
hourly record for PDX on 24 Nov 71.
Ckret's report conflicts with Ralph's report? Maybe
not. Who knows "where" Ralph is talking about. He
may be speaking about what it was like 20 miles
north of PDX-VCR ?
And no report to date specifies what conditions were
like above 5000 feet. It is those conditions which
bear directly on what Cooper could see or not see
from Malay south. (*I know where the winds aloft
records are but I have never been able to pry them
lose from the beaurocrats who have them ... )
There is one interesting aspect of the hourly records
below, however. That is the shifts in wind direction
which were happening that day almost hourly ...
from SE to SSW to SW and back again.
These are surface wind records. We still have no
data whatver about winds aloft above 5000 feet.
That data is crucial to this case. Who cxares what
the surface winds were doing! It is the winds aloft
which have always been crucial to this case and for
that we have nothing.
Georger I love it when you are Walking Tall - that has to get someone's attention. I do NOT know who Robert 99 is - but he is a obstinate know it all who quotes what others have said in books and articles. He never admits that he could be wrong when he is only using what others have written - note I did not say researched.
I had a long talk tonight with a friend in WA. and this whole group of individuals know the Plane WAS NOT West of the PDX and that the plane was EAST of I-5 and East of Vancouver. There are individuals in the Battleground, Heisson and Orchards (all over 70) who still remember the night the plane came over.
The FBI tried to bury Cooper in 1980 after the money find - with the speculation the plane was on a more Westwardly route. Bury Cooper in Myths - so we can bury him forever - seemed to be the mentality of the FBI in 1980.
The map this thread is using that shows the curve of the planes' route turning East just above Vancouver is wrong. That curve happened AFTER the plane crossed the Columbia.
Take a piece of clear plastic and draw the marks as the come down and all of those dots.
2005, 2010 etc. Now slide that piece of plastic down on the map and you have a more accurate route. There is still something wrong with those markings after the plane crossed the Columbia because this is when the plane set course along I-5 South.
I don't care who made or marked that map or what technolgy they were using - it was ONE person and that person made a mistake in some co-ordinates. One of the DZ's individuals was kind enough to send me the map use in the thread. The pilot I spoke to said there is NOT enough information in the transcripts I found and this particular map is NOT the proper map to use. Seems he has been unable to locate a 1970 navigational map used by Delta during that time period....the Navigational maps of 1968 - 1970 are the maps that need to be used. The transcipts should be used on those MAPS only. You can NOT apply information or knowledge or name changes that were transitional to the transcripts.
If there are any commercial pilots out there who kept their old navigations maps of the area - we need them....these maps need to be PRE - 1970.
We only need to borrow them and they will be returned un-harmed or they can be reproduced for us and shipped at my at my expense.
We also need the exact trascripts between plane and communications - it is my understand that some of these communications are MISSING.
Did anyone ever suspect for one moment this was deliberate? HOW many minutes are missing in the communications and what was the given location when that happened?
I know Robt99 has ALL the answers.
He actually has NONE...other than repeating like a parrot - what was in this book or that book. FACTS - and MAPS. This is what we need - the dead-line is just ahead of us. This will NOT continue after Nov.24 2011, so it is now or Never.
Who really really wants to solve this case and/or put some of they myths in the graveyard where they belong? Pehaps the biggest clue of all is already in a graveyard in WA.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
QuoteAnother possibility might be recording anemometers that were located on moutain peaks in the suspected DBC jump area.
Tell me about anemoneters and why is that terminology familiar to me? When you just posted this - something went click - but maybe it is just a rusty connection in my head that broke.
Who installed anemoneters and why? Are there or where there any in WA in 1971. Tell me exactly what they do and why anyone would install these things and how early in history where they installed. Would the Forestry have a reason to use Anemoneters?
I know this sound stupid to you but it also sounds stupid to me.
Like I said - rusty old springs in this old mind of mine...maybe I just completely snapped and collapsed. Would there NOT be towers with warning lights where these instruments where installed? Seems such a thing would have been very important in helping to determine the course of forest fires...and the reason for Blow-Out like they had in MT. Something that would help them to keep another such incident from occurring or let them know it could happen.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Note all Robert Nicholson ever says is:
a. The quote in Nuttall's book only addresses the fact
b. As Georger also states, there is apparently no information in circulation at this point that discusses the cloud information between 5000 and 10,000 feet.
c. the book by Tosaw discusses the interaction between Cooper and Tina in the most detail.
e. Cooper agreed to have the stairs locked up before take off. But he immediately told Tina that he knew the airliner could take off with the stairs down.
f. When Cooper had trouble getting the stairs down, either he or the flight crew suggested leveling off at 7000 feet and slowing the airplane down. If I remember correctly, Rataczak slowed the aircraft to about 140 knots indicated airspeed.
Robert Nicholson never thinks for himself - he is a parrot. Repeat repeat and repeat. 
Then he starts to think or perhaps just make fun of Me (Jo).
Robert States:
In my humble opinion (forgive me Jo), Cooper appeared to have some specific KNOWLEDGE of the 727 systems but didn't seem to have any appreciable EXPERIENCE with those systems. At least in part, this could have been determined from the aircraft manuals as you say.
Jo States:
I have told you guys over and over and over the 727 was all over the place - at his brothers house yet, NO one - NOT even the FBI ever enquired into the past of John Weber....John was 12 yrs older than Duane and he was an ENGINEER and he had a degree in engineering. John was a consultant for Boeing with the Army.
No the 727 wasn't developed then, but when Duane got of of San Quentin he went to live with his mother for awhile in Arcadia, CA. John was said to have chased Duane away with a baseball bat. He had been taking "Floozies" to Mother Weber's home and some coins where missing. I don't know if this was before or after - the St. Pete incident.
John and a friend owned a lot of property in Tacoma and it went bust - but, I did NOT know the time span of this venture. Obviously John lived in WA at one time.
Prior to that - the development of the 727's was dining room conversation and the schematic where all over John's house. The FBI has ignored this. The FBI has also ignored the fact that Duane lived as John Collins for many yrs - 1962 - 1968....yet they have NEVER filled in the blanks. The ex-wife told me about some of what he did - and he would be gone for wks at a time. She hated their time in Marana - while he was working "In Plane Site" while her children were in the custody of their father...she didn't even have her children with her until 1967 while Duane was "in" Jefferson.
The 727 had predecessors used in the Army for dropping jumpers - the DZ has discussed this.
When the 727 made its first appearance - find the list of guests? Find the names of all of the developers and suppliers of the materials used in the 727...including the paint used for the plane. You will find the name - of Weber (not Duane, but a relative). Maybe it was Lyman Van Buren and maybe he dropped the Weber name?
Now you know why Cooper asked the agent if the plane was a 727.
Landing gear down - flaps down. You know the plane was used for Special Opps - we have already proved one of the planes was tested and probably used for such operations. Snow is the one who proved this and there is even a film clip - perhaps you should go find it.
Excuse me for having to bring up this old STUFF the thread is already aware of, but maybe you never read it or have any knowledge of it. Did you even bother to read back and view some of the research done by REAL researchers. Yea. Snow liked to play games, but he got the job done - with lots of run-a-rounds, but he got where other did NOT dare go.
Right now I miss Snowmman - he would put you and your stuff in the right place real quick.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Robert99 37
QuoteQuote
Ralph and the helo were all ocver the place, flrew
north 20 miles or more... so Ralph's report applies
to where? I dunno.
His report cannot apply to PDX. Attached is the
hourly record for PDX on 24 Nov 71.
Ckret's report conflicts with Ralph's report? Maybe
not. Who knows "where" Ralph is talking about. He
may be speaking about what it was like 20 miles
north of PDX-VCR ?
And no report to date specifies what conditions were
like above 5000 feet. It is those conditions which
bear directly on what Cooper could see or not see
from Malay south. (*I know where the winds aloft
records are but I have never been able to pry them
lose from the beaurocrats who have them ... )
There is one interesting aspect of the hourly records
below, however. That is the shifts in wind direction
which were happening that day almost hourly ...
from SE to SSW to SW and back again.
These are surface wind records. We still have no
data whatver about winds aloft above 5000 feet.
That data is crucial to this case. Who cxares what
the surface winds were doing! It is the winds aloft
which have always been crucial to this case and for
that we have nothing.
Georger I love it when you are Walking Tall - that has to get someone's attention. I do NOT know who Robert 99 is - but he is a obstinate know it all who quotes what others have said in books and articles. He never admits that he could be wrong when he is only using what others have written - note I did not say researched.
I had a long talk tonight with a friend in WA. and this whole group of individuals know the Plane WAS NOT West of the PDX and that the plane was EAST of I-5 and East of Vancouver. There are individuals in the Battleground, Heisson and Orchards (all over 70) who still remember the night the plane came over.
The FBI tried to bury Cooper in 1980 after the money find - with the speculation the plane was on a more Westwardly route. Bury Cooper in Myths - so we can bury him forever - seemed to be the mentality of the FBI in 1980.
The map this thread is using that shows the curve of the planes' route turning East just above Vancouver is wrong. That curve happened AFTER the plane crossed the Columbia.
Take a piece of clear plastic and draw the marks as the come down and all of those dots.
2005, 2010 etc. Now slide that piece of plastic down on the map and you have a more accurate route. There is still something wrong with those markings after the plane crossed the Columbia because this is when the plane set course along I-5 South.
I don't care who made or marked that map or what technolgy they were using - it was ONE person and that person made a mistake in some co-ordinates. One of the DZ's individuals was kind enough to send me the map use in the thread. The pilot I spoke to said there is NOT enough information in the transcripts I found and this particular map is NOT the proper map to use. Seems he has been unable to locate a 1970 navigational map used by Delta during that time period....the Navigational maps of 1968 - 1970 are the maps that need to be used. The transcipts should be used on those MAPS only. You can NOT apply information or knowledge or name changes that were transitional to the transcripts.
If there are any commercial pilots out there who kept their old navigations maps of the area - we need them....these maps need to be PRE - 1970.
We only need to borrow them and they will be returned un-harmed or they can be reproduced for us and shipped at my at my expense.
We also need the exact trascripts between plane and communications - it is my understand that some of these communications are MISSING.
Did anyone ever suspect for one moment this was deliberate? HOW many minutes are missing in the communications and what was the given location when that happened?
I know Robt99 has ALL the answers.He actually has NONE...other than repeating like a parrot - what was in this book or that book. FACTS - and MAPS.
This is what we need - the dead-line is just ahead of us. This will NOT continue after Nov.24 2011, so it is now or Never.
Who really really wants to solve this case and/or put some of they myths in the graveyard where they belong? Pehaps the biggest clue of all is already in a graveyard in WA.
Jo,
Unlike you, I do know who Robert99 is. He is a fellow who dislikes to see attempts to pass off utter nonsense as facts. Here are just a select sample from your post.
1. "The FBI tried to bury Cooper in 1980 after the money find - with the speculation the airplane was on a more Westardly route. Bury Cooper in myths - so we can bury him forever - seemed to be the mentality of the FBI in 1980." In reality, in 1980 the FBI speculated that the airliner was on a more Easterly route than they originally thought in 1971. That is the direct opposite of what you are now suggesting.
2. It is a direct violation of the Federal Air Regulations for pilots to use maps that are out of date. The maps that pilots use must be valid for the day they are flying. This means that the maps the airliner's flight crew was using had to be valid on November 24, 1971. This is a simple fact known to all pilots. And these maps are changed on a regular basis which varies from 60 days to once a year.
3. If you have been paying attention to this thread over the past couple of years, then you know the problems with one specific set of the air traffic control transcripts. In fact, I think you and I have exchanged posts on this very subject.
Robert99 tells me that he did not copy any of the above from books but did all the original research himself.
The mystery of who is Robert99 may soon overtake the mystery of who was D. B. Cooper.
Robert Nicholson
377 21
QuoteHe was a former Paratrooper but that skill did not help him identify the SAR transceiver that activated when the chute deployed. A pair of F-111s tracked the signal and the police captured him within a couple hours.
You sure it was a transceiver (like a PRC 90)? I thought it was a bail out beacon like a URT 21, transmit only, no receiver.
http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=AD0630190
Also the pair of chase planes were F 106s not F 111s.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
georger 197
Georger I love it when you are Walking Tall - that has to get someone's attention. I do NOT know who Robert 99 is - but he is a obstinate know it all who quotes what others have said in books and articles. He never admits that he could be wrong when he is only using what others have written - note I did not say researched.
Jo I hate to disappoint you but I know Robt99
pretty well and he is an extremely competent,
highly experienced, and highly trustworthy person
who I have great respect for as a person.
I am speaking from experience.
Whether I am taller or shorter is irrelevant.
G.
Farflung 0
Robert99 asks:
“Oddly enough, I have not been able to find a mention of the means LaPoint used to exit the Hughes DC-9. None of the articles that I can find online about that incident mention it.”
I should have posted a source in the first place. Lazy and sloppy on my part, for a while there I thought I might have been bitten by a Zombie. You can imagine my relief to find my mental lapse entirely traceable to tertiary syphilis.
It looks like LaPoint is the record holder for number of openings for jumping (2) with another two available. The secret hatch in the cargo compartment sounds like a great place for a Douglas engineer to use.
377 researches:
“You sure it was a transceiver (like a PRC 90)? I thought it was a bail out beacon like a URT 21, transmit only, no receiver.”
And
“Also the pair of chase planes were F 106s not F 111s.”
My Magic 8 Ball says: the URT-21 is a likely candidate for the device in LaPoint’s chute and therefore making it a beacon and not a transceiver. I have no idea what was actually used but good catch 377.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBd3u8hU8lk
You can read the attached article and decide for yourself. You say they were F-106s then that sounds good also.
I hope the point is not lost that aircraft with aft stairs were used with astonishing ease by people with little or no aft stair operating experience or design; but it will because it must.
After believing a gravity powered aft stair can be used as an aerodynamic drag device, there really isn’t much left to violate: but someone will find a way so it matches a theory.
The incredibly strange assumption that experience translates into flawless competence like Cooper's escape even though McNally, LaPoint and McCoy all escaped, just their time living freely was less than Cooper’s.... or was it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDxSnQqAYeY
“Oddly enough, I have not been able to find a mention of the means LaPoint used to exit the Hughes DC-9. None of the articles that I can find online about that incident mention it.”
I should have posted a source in the first place. Lazy and sloppy on my part, for a while there I thought I might have been bitten by a Zombie. You can imagine my relief to find my mental lapse entirely traceable to tertiary syphilis.
It looks like LaPoint is the record holder for number of openings for jumping (2) with another two available. The secret hatch in the cargo compartment sounds like a great place for a Douglas engineer to use.
377 researches:
“You sure it was a transceiver (like a PRC 90)? I thought it was a bail out beacon like a URT 21, transmit only, no receiver.”
And
“Also the pair of chase planes were F 106s not F 111s.”
My Magic 8 Ball says: the URT-21 is a likely candidate for the device in LaPoint’s chute and therefore making it a beacon and not a transceiver. I have no idea what was actually used but good catch 377.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBd3u8hU8lk
You can read the attached article and decide for yourself. You say they were F-106s then that sounds good also.
I hope the point is not lost that aircraft with aft stairs were used with astonishing ease by people with little or no aft stair operating experience or design; but it will because it must.
After believing a gravity powered aft stair can be used as an aerodynamic drag device, there really isn’t much left to violate: but someone will find a way so it matches a theory.
The incredibly strange assumption that experience translates into flawless competence like Cooper's escape even though McNally, LaPoint and McCoy all escaped, just their time living freely was less than Cooper’s.... or was it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDxSnQqAYeY
Robert99 37
QuoteRobert99 asks:
“Oddly enough, I have not been able to find a mention of the means LaPoint used to exit the Hughes DC-9. None of the articles that I can find online about that incident mention it.”
I should have posted a source in the first place. Lazy and sloppy on my part, for a while there I thought I might have been bitten by a Zombie. You can imagine my relief to find my mental lapse entirely traceable to tertiary syphilis.
It looks like LaPoint is the record holder for number of openings for jumping (2) with another two available. The secret hatch in the cargo compartment sounds like a great place for a Douglas engineer to use.
377 researches:
“You sure it was a transceiver (like a PRC 90)? I thought it was a bail out beacon like a URT 21, transmit only, no receiver.”
And
“Also the pair of chase planes were F 106s not F 111s.”
My Magic 8 Ball says: the URT-21 is a likely candidate for the device in LaPoint’s chute and therefore making it a beacon and not a transceiver. I have no idea what was actually used but good catch 377.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBd3u8hU8lk
You can read the attached article and decide for yourself. You say they were F-106s then that sounds good also.
I hope the point is not lost that aircraft with aft stairs were used with astonishing ease by people with little or no aft stair operating experience or design; but it will because it must.
After believing a gravity powered aft stair can be used as an aerodynamic drag device, there really isn’t much left to violate: but someone will find a way so it matches a theory.
The incredibly strange assumption that experience translates into flawless competence like Cooper's escape even though McNally, LaPoint and McCoy all escaped, just their time living freely was less than Cooper’s.... or was it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDxSnQqAYeY
Farflung, Thanks for the information. It looks like LaPoint had exits available that would fit all possible theories.
Also, maybe I can't remember what I just had for breakfast, but I think the chase aircraft were F-111s. Their use had been arranged due to their range and electronic capabilities.
Robert Nicholson
Robert99 37
Quote
Georger I love it when you are Walking Tall - that has to get someone's attention. I do NOT know who Robert 99 is - but he is a obstinate know it all who quotes what others have said in books and articles. He never admits that he could be wrong when he is only using what others have written - note I did not say researched.
Jo I hate to disappoint you but I know Robt99
pretty well and he is an extremely competent,
highly experienced, and highly trustworthy person
who I have great respect for as a person.
I am speaking from experience.
Whether I am taller or shorter is irrelevant.
G.
Georger, Thanks. The check is in the mail.
Robert Nicholson
377 21
QuoteAlso, maybe I can't remember what I just had for breakfast, but I think the chase aircraft were F-111s. Their use had been arranged due to their range and electronic capabilities.
I put my bets on F 106s. They were based at McChord in 71, were interceptors (F 111s are not) and were equipped with Hughes MA 1 fire control systems which (when everything was working right) could allow the SAGE radar system at McChord to directly control the intercept through two way data comms and ground control of the F 106 autopilot.
If the chase planes were F 111s I'd be very surprised. In the end, a lumbering C 130 cargo plane with no onboard air intercept radar (just weather radar) made the intercept which must have been a huge embarrassment to the fighter jocks.
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Farflung 0
OK 377 you (or my syphilis) got me completely confused and feeling insecure now.
It is true that F-111s were not stationed at McChord AFB so they did not come from McChord.
Why would the Air Force scramble F-106s from Washington for an intercept on an aircraft departing Las Vegas? I think the Air Force may have been wise enough to use Nellis AFB but I could easily be convinced of anything regarding government blunders.
After all they required the ‘Cooper Vane’ be installed to trap future psychos with a bomb inside the aircraft. Gee, thanks Uncle Sam thanks bunches, just luv ya, oh I just luuuuuuv ya, muah, muah, kissy kissy.
I was not aware that a C-130 was involved in this incident either.
All these hijackings are wrapped in mystery, government intrigue and secret betrayal. I dig this stuff.
It is true that F-111s were not stationed at McChord AFB so they did not come from McChord.
Why would the Air Force scramble F-106s from Washington for an intercept on an aircraft departing Las Vegas? I think the Air Force may have been wise enough to use Nellis AFB but I could easily be convinced of anything regarding government blunders.
After all they required the ‘Cooper Vane’ be installed to trap future psychos with a bomb inside the aircraft. Gee, thanks Uncle Sam thanks bunches, just luv ya, oh I just luuuuuuv ya, muah, muah, kissy kissy.
I was not aware that a C-130 was involved in this incident either.
All these hijackings are wrapped in mystery, government intrigue and secret betrayal. I dig this stuff.
377 21
My mistake Farflung. I thought we were talking about the DBC interceptors. Your antibiotics are working just fine.
377
377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.
Robert99 37
QuoteMy mistake Farflung. I thought we were talking about the DBC interceptors. Your antibiotics are working just fine.
377
We all agree now that the Cooper airplane was tracked by F-106s. And that the LaPoint aircraft by F-111s. As Farflung suggests, the F-111s could have easily come from Nellis and they wouldn't necessarily have to come from an operational squadron.
The F-111s, with their changeable sweep wings, could easily stay with the 500 to 600 MPH DC-9 for its entire range and then some. All they were doing was staying back and waiting for a body to come out of the airliner.
This means that within a matter of weeks after the Cooper hi-jacking the FBI had an agreement in place with the USAF, and probably the other military aviation organizations, for tracking hi-jacked aircraft.
Robert Nicholson
Amazon 7
QuoteQuoteAlso, maybe I can't remember what I just had for breakfast, but I think the chase aircraft were F-111s. Their use had been arranged due to their range and electronic capabilities.
I put my bets on F 106s. They were based at McChord in 71, were interceptors (F 111s are not) and were equipped with Hughes MA 1 fire control systems which (when everything was working right) could allow the SAGE radar system at McChord to directly control the intercept through two way data comms and ground control of the F 106 autopilot.
If the chase planes were F 111s I'd be very surprised. In the end, a lumbering C 130 cargo plane with no onboard air intercept radar (just weather radar) made the intercept which must have been a huge embarrassment to the fighter jocks.
377
Closest F-111's I remember in that general time frame were at Mountain Home AFB over in Idaho. Those did not actually arrive till 1972 though
At least you are nice than he is - I know how to take you when you bounce off the wall at me - but his attitude toward even the possiblility that Duane was Cooper - Stinks. I don't know all of the facts about the crime and NO one does I do know what Duane told me and showed me and what I held in my hands. I know he didn't lie about these things - he only lied to me by omission. If anyone thinks he was trying to impress me with this confess- forget it. It did NOT impress me and he knew it would NOT. He was telling me the truth - strange as it sounds the man ONLY lied to me by omission...yet told me about his life in the 3rd person.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
Farflung Bring your Goat starring ass up here and see for your self. Then for once in yor ssshhhit ( I think that frar flung means Shitt) Thats what it meant when I was in the military.and see for your X 4 self. Jerry
I have not yet figured out who is the best fiction writer (Jo or Blevins) either way I have researched both stories. I still can not figure out which one has told the bigest Lie. Both the stories are fiction. Even Blevins admits this. Still for you blevins it is all about money. For jo it is a chance to RANK for 15 minutes of fame. Just LIKE CASEY ANTHONY. You both No that you have fabricated your stories.At least in Florida You can get away with the lies. Research Proved that both of you has fabricated all your stories.
Robert Stated:
It is a direct violation of the Federal Air Regulations for pilots to use maps that are out of date. The maps that pilots use must be valid for the day they are flying. This means that the maps the airliner's flight crew was using had to be valid on November 24, 1971. This is a simple fact known to all pilots. And these maps are changed on a regular basis which varies from 60 days to once a year.
Jo Replies:
I AM very AWARE of the new maps. I dated a Delta Airline pilot from 1973 until 1976. He was based at that time out of Dalles. He had to be sure his maps were updated, but they were NOT always available for "the day" he might fly that route. Bear this in mind.
On certain routes he might have a map that was considerably out dated...to the point of frustration and I heard him mention this more than once. How far out dated I don't know.
Talk to the co-pilot! WHY don't you ASK him how many times he had FLOWN that route? You should know the answer to this one - it is in one of the books you read. I know the answer, but this is one you need to learn on your own if you don't already know. Maybe he was not using an updated map? This is a question you and others including the FBI need to get answered before determining the "supposed" route taken.
Have you ever wondered WHY after all of these yrs the exact minutes of the questions and answers of the crew have NEVER been made public? Does NOT anyone find that ODD after almost 40 yrs, unless the authorities are HIDING something? After 40 yrs they could hardly worry about exposing Cooper.
If you have all of this knowledge then use it - talk to the co-pilot and I do not know if the engineer is still alive. WHO did or said WHAT - surely there are written records on this. Does anyone have any idea WHY at this time those records are still sealed?
Robert Said:
If you have been paying attention to this thread over the past couple of years, then you know the problems with one specific set of the air traffic control transcripts. In fact, I think you and I have exchanged posts on this very subject.
Jo States:
Since you guys go back and forth with all of this - I could never follow the conversation - because I could NOT READ the maps you guys worked from nor did I understand the changes from one map to another. All I know is it had to do with the name of a specific place and designation. And no one knew which map was being referenced and there was some conversation about when the change was made in the map.
But no one questioned this until this thread - but also NO one had tried to verifiy what map the ground man was using and the dates on the map the navigator was using. Please do NOT twist my simple words as I do NOT understand the flight lingo.
What I do KNOW is what I was told by someone who should have known. I also know what I was told coincided with all of the other "stuff" I found and that Duane showed me. I didn't know HOW much until I was out there in Oct of 2010. Of course I have those lost 14 yrs plus that can be attributed to someone who purposely misdirected me.
All incoming flights to Portland were delayed until Cooper's plane would have been out of the PDX airspace. The other planes headed to PDX were several minutes behind Cooper's Plane.
My brain will not let me remember the flight number tonight so I am replacing it with "Coopers Plane". My mind has started to shut down and this has happened more so since the surgery. Stress - maybe.
Old Timers - probably. Just tired - probably.
It is a direct violation of the Federal Air Regulations for pilots to use maps that are out of date. The maps that pilots use must be valid for the day they are flying. This means that the maps the airliner's flight crew was using had to be valid on November 24, 1971. This is a simple fact known to all pilots. And these maps are changed on a regular basis which varies from 60 days to once a year.
Jo Replies:
I AM very AWARE of the new maps. I dated a Delta Airline pilot from 1973 until 1976. He was based at that time out of Dalles. He had to be sure his maps were updated, but they were NOT always available for "the day" he might fly that route. Bear this in mind.
On certain routes he might have a map that was considerably out dated...to the point of frustration and I heard him mention this more than once. How far out dated I don't know.
Talk to the co-pilot! WHY don't you ASK him how many times he had FLOWN that route? You should know the answer to this one - it is in one of the books you read. I know the answer, but this is one you need to learn on your own if you don't already know. Maybe he was not using an updated map? This is a question you and others including the FBI need to get answered before determining the "supposed" route taken.
Have you ever wondered WHY after all of these yrs the exact minutes of the questions and answers of the crew have NEVER been made public? Does NOT anyone find that ODD after almost 40 yrs, unless the authorities are HIDING something? After 40 yrs they could hardly worry about exposing Cooper.
If you have all of this knowledge then use it - talk to the co-pilot and I do not know if the engineer is still alive. WHO did or said WHAT - surely there are written records on this. Does anyone have any idea WHY at this time those records are still sealed?
Robert Said:
If you have been paying attention to this thread over the past couple of years, then you know the problems with one specific set of the air traffic control transcripts. In fact, I think you and I have exchanged posts on this very subject.
Jo States:
Since you guys go back and forth with all of this - I could never follow the conversation - because I could NOT READ the maps you guys worked from nor did I understand the changes from one map to another. All I know is it had to do with the name of a specific place and designation. And no one knew which map was being referenced and there was some conversation about when the change was made in the map.
But no one questioned this until this thread - but also NO one had tried to verifiy what map the ground man was using and the dates on the map the navigator was using. Please do NOT twist my simple words as I do NOT understand the flight lingo.
What I do KNOW is what I was told by someone who should have known. I also know what I was told coincided with all of the other "stuff" I found and that Duane showed me. I didn't know HOW much until I was out there in Oct of 2010. Of course I have those lost 14 yrs plus that can be attributed to someone who purposely misdirected me.
All incoming flights to Portland were delayed until Cooper's plane would have been out of the PDX airspace. The other planes headed to PDX were several minutes behind Cooper's Plane.
My brain will not let me remember the flight number tonight so I am replacing it with "Coopers Plane". My mind has started to shut down and this has happened more so since the surgery. Stress - maybe.
Old Timers - probably. Just tired - probably.
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber
I guess I could treat this like an algebra equation and strike out the elements that cancel each other out in order to identify the unknown.
First – If the aft door (not stairs) were open so Cooper could jump the request for not being pressurized is redundant. As effective as the pressurization system is on a 727, that six by two foot hole in the back of the pressure vessel would render the system impotent. Asking for the aft stairs down and to be depressurized is like asking for the gear door to be deployed and the gear to be down. If Cooper knows this airframe that well he would have known that.
Specific flap position and airspeed was requested and don’t forget about that gear down requirement which is yet another Hollywood cliché manifesting in the Cooper crime. Once again this appears to be redundant since the speed limitation is lower for all flap settings than it is for the landing gear.
This all appears to be something that could be learned in twenty minutes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=644Ar2ZEp4A
If I ‘know’ something, I doooooo it. If I knew how to open the aft stairs there would be no ‘Mother May I’ game being played. After brake release (since I got nothing to lose) I would have grabbed that red stair handle and moved it to the cryptically named OPEN detent with or without the Pilot’s permission.
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