DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

the depth chart by caterpillar island is consistent with meander behavior. shallow on inside, deeper cut on outside

(first pic)


what's interesting then is the second pic, by tena bar.

It becomes deep by tena bar. This should be because of the current/channel bouncing off the outside curve and coming back to this shore and deepening the channel (per the prior posts)


I think the depth charts are related to the velocity of the current. It all matches up with the textbook meander river processes?

(edit) these two are both sourced from the same url as above:
http://www.charts.noaa.gov/OnLineViewer/18525.shtml

[snowmman 3]

A little farther north, on the nav chart, the marked-in channel shows the perfect shifting from shore to shore around a curve, as the meander stuff would predict.

I didn't get the best resolution, but you can see the lines in the river that show the channel, and how they shift from side to side around this curve.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

What is the location of your debris photo? Tina
Bar?

no it's further north. I just went until I found the most wood that washed up the most on shore.

There are areas of less wood closer to Tena Bar. It all depends how shallow the elevation rise is, right off the beach.

Since Tena Bar has a relatively deep channel, immediately off the sand, it doesn't get as much as the places with shallower water immediately off the sand, I think. But it gets some. There's just less sand for stuff to end up on.

I zoomed in and showed a couple logs on the beach there at Tena Bar by the money find location (you can recognize the road from the other pics)

The logs are haphazard, so I don't think they were put there by Fazio.

(edit) 2nd pic is the shore by the channel behind the N tip of Caterpillar island. You can see a little of the South sand operation at the Fazio's.

[snowmman 3]

georger said:

"If there is slow current via a meander how did the dredge deposits
get swept away so quickly? "

Sand moves differently, then say, logs. (or money bundles in bag or attached to body or ???)

Yes the sand moved away. But some logs/brush debris did land on Tena Bar.

Why did the logs stay there? because they float a bit, I suspect.

(edit) But you're right. I was focused on the main current shifting side to side, not where the slow current would deposit stuff.
Would the money end up in the fast current hitting the beach, or the slow current. Dunno. I think there's a key difference in the flotation issue. (which is why garbage ends up on beaches most everywhere?)

[snowmman 3]

georger said
"If the Main Channel is the route, then from
where and when? The money almost had to be hung up somewhere between 71 and 77, at least ? "

I think maybe the idea that the money bag is sufficient protection from '71 to '77 is not correct. The money bag is no protection at all.

So the money had to be buried. I think sand plus water was the necessary protection to preserve the money.

So: buried, then unburied.

[snowmman 3]

Dan Bullard used to live in one of the floating houses that are in the slough behind Caterpillar Island.

He has a web page, and I've exchanged email with him in the past.
He has some nice pics and he has video of the Columbia River bottom where he trolled a video camera underneath.
i.e. http://www.danbullard.com/dan/underwater.html

I went back to his site to see if anything new was there. He's moved to a new location on the river (unsure where). Apparently chucked it all for a new houseboat in 2006.

There are some good shots there of the columbia river shore sand...smooth like at Tena Bar.

But he had an interesting pic of a huge tree that washed up on the columbia shore.

he said:
"This is a good shot of the big tree that washed up on our beach during the last high water. Damn big tree, I'm not sure my chainsaw will be able to do much to this thing."

pic attached.
(edit) The pic is also a good profile shot for the typical elevation rise of columbia beach shore? I'm guessing from looking at overhead shots, and the amount of sand shown (which relates to the angle of the beach..it looks similar here compared to Tena Bar)
this was from http://www.danbullard.com/dan/ga.html

(edit) his days in Caterpillar Slough are at
http://www.danbullard.com/dan/riverplace.html

[snowmman 3]

There's some academic stuff analyzing the behavior of wood debris in rivers, in terms of log jam creation etc.

I was wondering if the wood could be tracked..i.e by species.

Where does it come from? Way up the columbia? From the feeder rivers? How far does it travel?

I suppose some of it goes all the way to the ocean.

It's not coming from the Columbia river shores, since there aren't many trees there???

How long does the wood take to travel? Does it keep moving for 50 years? or less? (depending on the wood and size, it can take 50-100 years to decompose?)

[happythoughts 0]

If you say, "a 300 lb log was carried by the current",
people will say, "oh yes, seen it".

If you say, "a 20 lb bag of money was carried by the
current", people argue.

Go figure.

Money could be in a bag. Current puts it into an eddy near a bar where the current swings in.
Maybe there is a tear in the bag (after some time on the bottom) and some of the money falls from
the bag and sits on the bottom in one spot.
Nature covers it with sand.

I have seen gold mining on the Rogue River (Oregon) done that way. There is a low spot around
rocks. The heavier gold dust collects there.
The divers suck it out with a 3" hose and a small pump.

- Money could have been lost on exit.
- Lost in a river landing.
- Been on land and a flood moved the bag after
a couple of year.

I've seen people open a round at 800 feet with
a 8mph wind and watched them go for a tour of
the countryside.

A nice 25 mph wind and a 4K opening could be a
cross-country adventure ride. You don't have to
start that close to end up somewhere.

All that gives plausible reasons how money could
end up in the sand without any space aliens involved.

If he lived, but lost the money, you'd never hear
about him again.

It recently took me 4 days to find a favorite
tshirt that was misplaced in my own house.
There is a lot of river, a lot of years, and only a tiny bit of money to find.

[snowmman 3]

If you noticed todays news (Google News) US and UK are calling for new substantial nuke reductions. We speak. The world listens.

http://news.google.com/nwshp?hl=en&tab=wn&ncl=1300769981&topic=h

uk Miliband here (today):

http://www.globalsecuritynewswire.org/gsn/nw_20090204_1382.php

The funny thing is that Iran and North Korea are probably the biggest impetus to this. The big guys are realizing their nukes are worthless for anything strategic, even militarily. They're just all negative.

The problem is that nukes are not hard to build...i.e. it's more about nature than brains and technology. That's the main reason they were able to do it in 1940's. It wasn't that hard, for all the whining! By definition, if 1940's humans were able to do it, it ain't hard.

The B-man says we're on our own with this Cooper thing though.

(hey happythoughts..that tree is probably over 3000 lbs dry. We don't know how far it travelled though. Do big things travel differently than small..dunno? I suppose what happens is they drift to shore, then get a little surface friction with the sand which overcomes the force of the water...then the water recedes. It's probably a cycle..i.e. the logs refloat when the water gets higher, quickly. Then it beaches again. It might take a while to get a long way. Or it might stay in channel and zoom a long way at once.

Need some PhD's and gps beacons to do a 5 year study for us.

"On the Behavior of Log Debris in the Columbia River and the DB Cooper Event"

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

that tree is probably over 3000 lbs dry. We don't know how far it travelled though. Do big things travel differently than small..dunno?

Me neither. Just illustrating that water was the transport
mechanism for some of the money.
Earlier, people kept opposing that theory.
Just empirical thought, if you live near a river, you see
it all the time.

Assessing our facts.
- The money find is our only rigid fact.
- Exit point still has a range of conjecture.

The money was found in, or near the river, depending on what flood stage we
are speaking about.

To be transported by water, it had to be:
- in the watershed or the river.
- it didn't float upstream, against the current.

(Note - DBC could have landed downstream if he
lost the money on exit and the money was blown
to its resting point, while the wind carried him further.)

Logically, the money wasn't 10 miles from the river, in a field.

Let's say, 100 yds on either side of the river or a tributary - essentially, the flood plane.
Outline that box.

Figure the max wind drift of the canopy:
From the probable exit point, figure the drift of a round
with the max wind estimate.
Draw the suspected drift cone and get a trapezoid effect.

Figure the max wind drift of the cash bag, as if lost on exit:
From the probable exit point, estimate the drift of a bag
with the max wind estimate. (Cutaway free bags
don't go that far and the cash bag was not aerodynamic)
Draw the suspected drift cone.

We don't know where he landed, but at least we have
a better idea where he didn't.

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

when Duane was in the navy, was he ever stationed at lakehurst nj? the navy parachute rigger school was there and one of the requirements for graduation is each candidate must make a jump witha parachute that they themselves had packed. THIS would most definitely put Duane in a parachute and at rather high speeds (exiting from the RD4D aircraft) there are pictures at flickr.com in Lee guilfoyle's photostream taht show some people and exits from that aircraft for thr rigger school.it could also account for why the NB6 was chosen , since a navy parachute rigger most definitely would be familiar with it.

The records have be obsured by the Navy except that we still have exhanges made with the family - these are items found in the family records.

Letter dated Nov 18, 1942 -
If anyone decipher any of this it will be appreciated.
WEBER, Duane Lorin, EX--S2-c, USN.
Pers-652-ERT
283-56-96
This letter was a form letter regarding his discharge from the Navy - not authorizing his re-inlistment with the Navy. He must have been a real bad boy.

ALL I recieved from my own inquiry in Sept of 2000 was
Army - 35 608 905 Army with no entered and released dates.
Navy - 6/18/41 entered
Navy 5-30-42 released
Navy # 283-58-96

The registrar's report of 10/1/42 listed his height as 5'11" with a weight of 167 - This has a Akron, Ohio address on it. Since he was discharged on 5/30/42 - this must have been his attempt at reenlistment. Interesting - they give his date of birth as 6/18/22 - there is NO date on the registration Card.
Serial Number N 91-A
Order Number 12, 035-A
Willoughby, Ohio
US Maritime commission
Complexion is listed as Ruddy

Another document dated May 5, 1943
State of Ohio
Case 119879
Courtney & Manes Plaintiff Atty
Underwood Defendcant Atty

Letter written by Duane to his Mother - dated April 15, 1943 from Camp Sibert Alabama

Signed DuaneL. Weber 35608905
Co D 2st CWS Trng Regt.
Camp Sibert Ala

Unable to read the CWS - could be TWS
The letter is signed DUSTY

She sent him a dollar and washed his clothes - which he told her he would not be able to wear anymore.
He tell her that if he could come home he could get this straightened out - (we have never known what he was talking about in this letter).

He asks her to send his watch because he needs it out in the field as - have a lot of time precision and needs something to tell what time it is.

He is notifying her that he was glad she got the papers on his insurance. He had tried to take out 10k but they would only allow him 2K because of his Navy insurance. He also had his bonds signed over to her (whatever bonds were in those times).

"The chemical end of it is just as good as anything else." States that maybe he will get a chance to see John (his brother I assumed) soon.

He obviously sent a picture of himself in the army but I have never seen that picture.

ODD statement "I sure that boy will be alright if you people use your head at Akron and keep his location a secret because this boy is making good and wants to keep right on."

All of this leaves a lot of unanswered questions.
Letter is dated April 15, 1943
Court appearance is dated May 5, 1943
Marriage certificate is dated July 23, 1943 in Monroe, Michigan to Daisy Schuller. The Marriage certificate never got put back in its place or it is missing. I never found Daisy Schuller and I do not believe this is the mother of Zona, His age is listed as 24 for the certificate. Sluggo - did you get a copy of this - i cannot find the original at all...just my notes.

He purportedly knew Jack Anderson from California,

Johnny Roselli spent time in McNeil but not during Duane's time there.

Roselli was at the Fontainbleu in 1962 - during the time Duane was reported to be there, but Duan was supposed to be in prison...we never got any sense out of this - but it was reported by a family member who would not lie about seeing Duane there. This is just some of the interesting trivia we found in our yrs of research..

The only Tony Wong found I could not get an age on - Chinese national guerrrilla who fought in the Japanese Army. I do not think the Tony Wong I met in 1980 was that old and he was living in the south and spoke perfect english.

Luis Posada Carriles was a CIA operative trained for the 1961 Bay of Pigs invasion. - They were in Miami in 1965 - training for 2 yrs. He is a KNOWN "soldier" in the U.S. governments covert war against communism. I do not know if Posada is still alive - nor where he was being held in the US.

I do know that Jack Anderson had interviewed individuals involved in this and that the FBI MADE ACCESS to his files by decieving the wife when they gained access to her husbands 200 boxes of files. She thought they only wanted access to the 1970 files.

As late as 2007 - CIA released CENSORED documents regarding 1970 CIA assassination plots and other misdeeds in reference to the JMWave.

Still haven't found that marriage record, but I have suitcases of this "stuff".

Before any of you discount that "beret" you better talk to the OLD TIMERS about that.

With all the trivia about the Columbia River - I thought the thread needed a little diversion before we drown in that darn river.

Just trying for some variety here and to let all know I have not been standing on my hands for 13 yrs. My head maybe! We can talk about that river for yrs and not solve the case...what will solve it is one of the 20's or someone who knew Cooper, something taken from the plane and putting a specific suspect in a chute.

There are 2 books due out soon and I understand 3 more being done by members of writers groups...usually never published.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

In the early 40's I am not sure there was a paratrooper beret so to speak - it was created by doing the stripping of the lining from the dress hat. Does anyone have any knowledge of the Navy beret history...and the history of Navy jumpers in the early 40's.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 197]

Quote

There's some academic stuff analyzing the behavior of wood debris in rivers, in terms of log jam creation etc.

I was wondering if the wood could be tracked..i.e by species.

Where does it come from? Way up the columbia? From the feeder rivers? How far does it travel?

I suppose some of it goes all the way to the ocean.

It's not coming from the Columbia river shores, since there aren't many trees there???

How long does the wood take to travel? Does it keep moving for 50 years? or less? (depending on the wood and size, it can take 50-100 years to decompose?)

Snow, you have done an amazing piece of work here. Im digesting it all. Yes, wood could be tracked
generally speaking but we are dealing with a very large/powerful river here (in an even larger dynamic water shed) easily capable of carrying tress of the kind pictured especially during flood as mentioned.

Have you sver asked Bullard straight out how he thinks the money got to Tina Bar?

Great work!

[snowmman 3]

I'll check my email from Bullard. I was asking him at the time, when various things were constructed at Caterpillar Slough. (edit) there are various public access boat ramps that arrived at various times...and I'm not sure when all the various floating houses were put in there....I think he didn't have much info. I had sort of posted about his stuff before. I thought his video/stills of the Columbia river bottom (in our area, since he lived there) were very interesting.


Hey, as an example that there are academics with knowledge that might be applicable:

from http://nwetc.org/hyd-501_09-08_peninsula.htm
these guys in WA are touting coursework about log jams that includes the following info:

Patterns of Natural Wood Debris Accumulation in Drainage Networks

Processes of Wood Recruitment, Transport, and Deposition

Hydraulic and Geomorphic Effects of Wood Debris Accumulation

Historic Changes in Wood Debris Loading

Sediment Transport

Channel Morphology (e.g., Blockage Coefficients)

Channel Response (e.g., Scour, Sedimentation)

Debris Passage and Retention

So there are guys who talk about this stuff in the Northwest all the time. It's a mixture of hydrology and geology stuff.


Lead Instructor Bio: Dr. Abbe is an internationally recognized geomorphologist and licensed engineering and hydrogeologist with 22 years of applied science and research experience in geology, geomorphology, environmental restoration, risk assessment, self-mitigating flood and erosion protection, sustainable land management, and water resources. Dr. Abbe has developed and implemented cutting edge solutions for a wide range of clients and his work is being used all over the world to better understand and restore rivers.
Dr. Abbe has directed major water resource and geomorphic investigations throughout the Western United States, including: the effects of flow diversions and land use on aquatic habitat; channel migration and erosion, flooding; water, sediment and wood budgets, geomorphic hazards; slope stability; ship traffic; scour assessment; mining; and water quality.

[georger 197]

Quote

Quote

that tree is probably over 3000 lbs dry. We don't know how far it travelled though. Do big things travel differently than small..dunno?

Me neither. Just illustrating that water was the transport
mechanism for some of the money.
Earlier, people kept opposing that theory.
Just empirical thought, if you live near a river, you see
it all the time.

Assessing our facts.
- The money find is our only rigid fact.
- Exit point still has a range of conjecture.

The money was found in, or near the river, depending on what flood stage we
are speaking about.

To be transported by water, it had to be:
- in the watershed or the river.
- it didn't float upstream, against the current.

(Note - DBC could have landed downstream if he
lost the money on exit and the money was blown
to its resting point, while the wind carried him further.)

Logically, the money wasn't 10 miles from the river, in a field.

Let's say, 100 yds on either side of the river or a tributary - essentially, the flood plane.
Outline that box.

Figure the max wind drift of the canopy:
From the probable exit point, figure the drift of a round
with the max wind estimate.
Draw the suspected drift cone and get a trapezoid effect.

Figure the max wind drift of the cash bag, as if lost on exit:
From the probable exit point, estimate the drift of a bag
with the max wind estimate. (Cutaway free bags
don't go that far and the cash bag was not aerodynamic)
Draw the suspected drift cone.

We don't know where he landed, but at least we have
a better idea where he didn't.

I think your summary is workable.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

There are 2 books due out soon and I understand 3 more being done by members of writers groups...usually never published.

hey don't we count?

it's not easy trying to come up with something new, every day, that's not already been said about DBC.

If this thread isn't a book, I don't know what is.
hell, we've got words, pictures, videos, animations. We've got plot twists and turns. We've got sicknesses, births, divorces, job issues, alcohol abuse. Weapons being discharged. Barns being painted, and snow blowed. Hot babes and foreign countries. Gold, nukes, airplanes and parachutes.


National Geographic: kiss my ass!

[snowmman 3]

I mentioned this before, but maybe georger didn't catch it.
This was just ~500 gallons of oil. Remember Hayden Island is around where I-5 crosses the Columbia.

I mention it because while it doesn't say where else oil ended up, it shows that floating oil can go from Hayden Island and deposit on Caterpillar Island (just S of Tena Bar)


(edit) replaced link with link to original news source here
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/207137_spill08.html


"Shipping company fined for spilling oil into Columbia River
---OLYMPIA, Wash. -- The state Department of Ecology has fined a Greek shipping company $12,000, saying the crew of one of its tankers made mistakes that led to an oil spill in the Columbia River.
Ecology estimates that 519 gallons of oil spilled from the Rosa Tomasos on Aug. 30, 2003, when a fuel tank overflowed onto the deck and over the side of the vessel as it was being refueled at Hayden Island Anchorage west of Vancouver, Wash.
Ecology investigators said the crew did not slow down the transfer of oil after the tank was 80 percent full, and alleged the chief engineer ignored the an automated monitoring system that signaled the tank was getting full.
"The crew members responsible for monitoring the fuel transfer were not keeping an adequate watch," Mike Lynch, an Ecology investigator said in a statement released Thursday. "The watchman was busy loading supplies on the other side of the ship, and the third engineer left his station to deliver an oil sample to the chief engineer in the engine room."
Some of the oil washed up on beaches near Frenchman's Bar and Caterpillar Island.There were no reports of any harm to wildlife. "

[snowmman 3]

This got my eye for two reasons. Ckret, and also because I have a friend who actually is doing very well at a company that sells these high resolution megapixel security cameras. You would think it would be obvious everyone should be upgrading to the high res stuff we use like in our digital cameras...but its actually only now happening. He's evidently making good money as a result (casinos for instance. He says they can see the serial numbers on bills at the money changers with the latest gear).

Ckret gives thumbs up on high-res pic below.

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/02/fbi_gets_good_look_at_bank_rob.html

FBI gets good look at bank robber in Ridgefield, Wash.
by Michael Russell, The Oregonian
Tuesday February 03, 2009, 7:04 PM
Courtesy of the FBIHave you seen this man? The FBI says he robbed a bank in Ridgefield today
The FBI is investigating a bank robbery about 12:45 p.m. today in Ridgefield, Wash., and agents have a clear picture of their suspect.

Robbie Burroughs, an FBI spokeswoman in Seattle, said the man walked into an IQ Credit Union branch at 2 S. 56th Place, handed a teller a note demanding cash and fled with an undisclosed sum.

The man is described as 6 feet to 6-foot-2, 170 pounds, with brown eyes. He is missing the top joint of the middle or ring finger on his left hand.

A security camera provided such a clear photo of the suspect's face that Larry Carr, the FBI's bank robbery coordinator in Washington state, sent a thank-you to the security company.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

In the early 40's I am not sure there was a paratrooper beret so to speak - it was created by doing the stripping of the lining from the dress hat. Does anyone have any knowledge of the Navy beret history...and the history of Navy jumpers in the early 40's.

(sigh)

but answering because the history is interesting.

History of use of berets in the US army:

http://www.army.mil/features/beret/beret.htm#History

Maroon beret history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maroon_beret
Lovely for the history buffs with brief discussions of each army's use of the maroon beret.

Quote

The maroon beret has been the international symbol of elite airborne forces since its selection for use by the airborne forces in World War II. This distinctive head dress was officially introduced in 1942

It was originally worn by the Brits, and then

Quote

In 1943 General Frederick Browning, commander of the British First Airborne Corps, granted a battalion of the US Army's 509th Parachute Infantry Regiment honorary membership in the British Parachute Regiment and authorized them to wear British-style maroon berets. US Army advisers to Vietnamese airborne forces wore the Vietnamese French-style red beret during the Vietnam War.

Headquarters, Department of the Army (HQDA) policy from 1973 through 1979 permitted local commanders to encourage morale-enhancing distinctions. Airborne forces chose to wear the maroon international parachute beret as a mark of distinction. This permission was rescinded in 1979 when the army introduced a policy of standardized headgear and designated wear of the black beret for Ranger and Airborne units. On 28 November 1980 permission was given for airborne organizations to resume wearing the maroon beret.

This a nice brief history of paratroopers in WW2:
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/paratroopers_and_world_war_two.htm

Quote

In America, an airborne brigade was discussed in 1939 by the Chief of Infantry. A parachute test platoon came into being in June 1940 under the control of the Infantry. This platoon was headed by Major William Lee. In the autumn of 1940, a parachute battalion was created in America and a parachute school was founded at Fort Benning in Georgia.

Navy parachutists
http://www.militarymuseum.org/MCAAFGillespie.html

Quote

The first class of two officers and 38 enlisted men began training at NAS Lakehurst, New Jersey on October 26, 1940. Tower training was accomplished at the Army's facility at nearby Hightstown, New Jersey. Live jumps were made at Lakehurst. The second class began training on December 30, 1940. A total of 225 Marines completed the Lakehurst course. Due to the inadequacy of the facilities at Lakehurst and the unavailability of the Army's towers at Hightstown, Capt. Marion Dawson and the second class of parachutists were sent to San Diego in February 1941 to set up an additional school. The third class of parachutists was also sent to San Diego and eventually formed the 2nd Parachute Battalion.
....
There was no shortage of volunteers for the parachute program. Part of this was due to the fact the enlisted men received an additional $50 and officers an additional $100 per month when qualified. Physical requirements were high and the men had to be unmarried. The six-week course consisted of three phases. The first consisted of ground instruction in tactics, map reading, demolitions, and weapons. In the second phase, students learned to pack chutes and use floatation gear. The final phase consisted of parachute jumping. First from the captive and free towers and finally six jumps from Marine transports from Camp Kearney. The course was demanding, and parachute wings were awarded to those who survived the 40% washout rate.Parachute qualifiers also included Navy doctors and corpsmen.

Initially, Gillespie graduated 70 paratroopers per month. Early in 1943, the rate increased to 100 per month. The New River school closed in July 1943, thereafter, all training took place at Gillespie......
During the 16 months of Camp Gillespie's existence, a total of 3,000 parachutists graduated without a single fatality. Up to July 1943, 20,000 jumps had been made at Gillespie.

On Lakehurst specifically:
this site has a contact email for historical questions.
http://www.nlhs.com/

of more interest (perhaps) is the fact that the site's guestbook has people who have photos of various graduating classes of navy jumpers from Lakehurst in the 40s, including 42 and 43. scroll down:

http://www.nlhs.com/guests-04.htm - note this page is 2004, there are links at the top to the guest book entries in other years

Of course, this does make me think that (being as it was probably even more elite back then that it is now) anyone who did graduate to earning wings then would have kept photos (as well as other records) of it. Especially if they were the type of person to "keep" "important" "things", if you get my drift.

Note these entries in particular:

Quote

From: John Spielmann of CA
05 Nov 2004

My co-worker's aunt, Zilda DeCarlo, went to Parachute Rigger School at Lakehurst in 1943 after completing WAVES basic training at Hunter College in The Bronx. She retired from the Navy Reserves as a CPO. Her aunt is 91 and has given me her naval service documents to review. One of them is her parachute rigger class photo. If you are interested, I can scan the photo and attach it in an email.

Quote

From: Jack Edward O'Neal of WV
12-July-2004

I was stationed at Lakehurst, NJ in 1934 and graduated from parachute school. Was called back to service in 1942. Was stationed at Lakehurst as a Parachute Instructor. I was the instructor for the first group of WAVES to complete Parachute School. I have pictures of people stationed at Lakehurst, approx.1942. I have a picture of the 1942 Graduating Class #66 of Parachute Rigger School. I also have a picture of Class #63 US Navy Parachute School, June 4, 1942. I have a newspaper clipping dated Feb. 6, 1943 of Waves in training at Lakehurst Naval Air Station. Josephine Hall and Mildred Dubay are included in picture. Nov. 11, 1942 picture of following men in graduation picture..Palermo, Bryant, Hatt, Lt. Conroy, Stroup.

Also from someone whose mom worked at the base "packing parachutes, etc"

I haven't been able to find anything fully definitive one way or the other so some people can go on believing what they want to believe, and the rest can hopefully find some stuff of interest. Getting hold of some of those photos might be interesting though, at the very least maybe we can put the beret question to bed.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 21]

***

No wonder it's so fun to be here.

Great work on the river stuff Snow!

An amazing amount of stuff gets washed ashore on the banks and even washed out to sea. What are the chances that a body would remain underwater in the river channel and for how long?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 197]

The B-man says we're on our own with this Cooper thing though.

Reply> I assume you're talking about Ckret. It may
not matter that he isnt here. Frankly, he may not know
much more at this point than we do, and we know for
a fact unless he has something really special that
nobody else has, then he has a lot of false information.

They wasted a lot on the bogus flight path and drop
zone. They also wasted time and energy, in my opinion, on the Washougal Theory.

Happy's synopsis is almost dead-on, imho. But
perhaps even this can be narrowed, as follows.
Let me begin with a quote from Gulick's book where
he describes what Ingram found, quote:

"After gathering a load of driftwood for a fire, the
boy put it down, then dropped to his knees and
started smoothing out a spot in the sand on which he
could pike the wood. . . . Digging it up (the money),
he discovered three packets of soggy twenty dollar
bills, two of them held together with rubber bands
that broke as soon as he handled them, while the
third, which was not bound by a rubber band, was thinner".

I do not accept the scenario of Brian laying down firewood etc. I am sure Denise was close by. I do
however accept the description of the two and 1/2?
bundles! So we have in essence, two intact bundles
and once partial broken bundle, which is consistent
with a water deposition scenario as opposed to a
plant or intentional burial.

The money washed to Tina Bar, but from where.
Approximately 290 $20 bills, or 2 + 1/nth bundles ?
And why no more and no less than this amount?

If you begin in the narrow corridor of possible drop
zones given the flight path currently understood,
and work your way up to Tina Bar, one thing stands
out - the vastness of the water shed area involved.
Just the Columbia itself between these two points
comprises a very large (dynamic flow) area.

If you lost 3 bundles of money back in the drop
area, the probabilty of those self-same bundles
winding up at Tina Bar is ZERO, practically speaking.
The area is so great, the options so many, the Tina
Bar location probability from an origin in the drop zone
is zero. (actually 1:billions)

This tells us it would require a much greater distribution
of money in the drop zone area, for any money to
work its way through various options to Tina Bar.
We have 10,000 $20 bills and n-number of bundles
to work with.

This also tells us the closer we can move the money
to Tina Bar before any distribution occurs, the higher
the probability of money being at Tina Bar.

The closer in time we can begin the distribution prior
to discovery, the greater the probability some money
will survive to be found...

If we add in Gulick's account, then some money
arrived intact still in bundles, but upon discovery
at least one bundle was broken with bills and bands
missing. (Possible deterioration during the money's
time at Tina Bar itself?).

It is hard to conceive of a partial bundle washing very far without coming apart unless cemented in some fashion, but we must assume the partial bundle arrived along with the intact banded bundles as found, or the one partial bundle became partial after arriving at Tina Bar.

Rubber bands of this era had a high clay content and
became brittle when exposed to nature within three
years, some say. By 1980 the bands fell apart when
the bundles were moved at all. Movement by water
and rolling surely would have yielded the same result.

Ckret and hydrologist Bradley say the money could
not have been at Tina Bar prior to 1974 due to the
dredging in 1974. The timeline of rubber band deterioration suggests the money could have been
at Tina Bar any LATER than 1974, and have bands
still intact by 1980! How do we resolve this conflict?

The bands seem to require one timeline; the dredging
another timeline - and the two conflict?

Without some intervening factor, the timeline on the
rubber bands seems to require the money arriving
somewhere near Tina Bar between 1971-74, so that
any future placement at Tina Bar requires little movement, thus keeping at some of the rubber bands
still around their bundles in 1980. Because, so far as
the clay impregnated rubber bands are concerned,
any movement after three years in nature is destructive, and the further one goes out beyond
three years the more destructive movement gets to
these bands (unless all of the bundles were part of
a large cemented block and the money finally found
at Tina Bar a surviving remnant).

To Ingram, quoting Gulick, the bundles were "something lumpy and damp, that felt like LIMP
PAPER WITH RUBBER BANDS STILL IN PLACE" until
he handled and pulled the bundles free.

Survivors of a nine year history in the natural
elements of Washington and the Columbia. Far
away from the drop zone. But very close to a popular
fishing, tourist, and boating spot (Catapillar Island
and Tina Bar).

Did Cooper know somebody at Catapillar Island or
is this indeed an event arranged by Nature?















Obviously

[happythoughts 0]

Scanned copies of armed service records, with training listed, are facts.
There is no conspiracy to withhold such records.

There is no linkage between wearing a hat
and receiving parachute training.

However, I have a picture somewhere of my friends
wearing capes as children. It was an indication of
my super-powers.

[snowmman 3]

I was surprised by georger's mention of clay in rubber bands then. But he's right about fillers.
did some searching.

http://www.cec.com.my/faq.htm

Q1: What is rubber band made of?

Main material is "rubber", usually natural rubber, but some types of synthetic rubber are also used to obtain certain specific quality depending on the application. Besides, fillers such as calcium carbonate, carbon black, clay and additives like sulfur, stearic acid, zinc oxide, wax, oil, accelerators are mixed into rubber as ingredients.

Q2 : What is natural rubber?

Natural rubber used for making rubber band is in block form made from latex emulsion collected from rubber tree called Hevea Brasiliensis planted in very large scale in tropical countries such as Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia. Scientifically, natural rubber is "cis 1, 4-polyisoprene" with the chemical structure of ...


Q5 : Why rubber has to be vulcanized?

Natural rubber itself is soft, less resilient, broken down easily when over stretched and not able to return to the original shape after being stretched. Moreover, it is easily damaged by heat, sunlight, oil, oxygen and solvent. During a process called vulcanization, the sulphur molecule becomes a bridge between rubber molecules and forms a three dimensional network with help of other ingredients (just like fishing net made of many lines of thread). This network improves the above weaknesses of natural rubber for practical use. Generally, the higher the rubber content, the higher the resilience and elasticity.

Q8 : How should rubber band be stored?

Products made of natural rubber are, in general, aged faster by exposure to heat, air and sun light. Therefore, rubber bands should be packed, preferably in air tight bag or container, and stored in cool and dark place for securing longer life.

Q13: How much protein is contained in original liquid natural rubber (Field Latex)? What about protein content in solid (dry) natural rubber made from the field latex?

Original liquid natural rubber latex collected from rubber trees (called "Field Latex" or "Hevea Latex") contains about 1 - 2 % of various proteins, extractable and non-extractable. Some of these water soluble or extractable proteins are known to cause an allergic reaction.

Liquid latex after the concentration is adjusted to 60% rubber content (called "Latex Concentrate") as a direct material to produce latex gloves still contains about 1/4 of the total proteins, but the rest, 3/4, is removed during the concentration process.

Solid natural (dry) rubber is made from field latex through coagulation, washing and drying processes, and the repeated washing with fresh water in the process makes the extractable protein to the level below 20 micro-gram per gram of the solid (dry) rubber (mg/g).

p.s.
The B-Man is Barack. He wanted his blackberry for the DBC thread, like I said.
The word from a guy who played ball with him is that he likes to go left (really), and you have to make him go right to defend against him. I read this in one place, but confirmed it here:
http://www.time.com/time/specials/2008/personoftheyear/article/0,31682,1861543_1865068_1865096,00.html
Supposedly a good outside shot.

[snowmman 3]

"Today synthetic rubber accounts for about 60% of the world's rubber production."

I was wondering if the rubber bands could have been synthetic rubber. They started doing synthetic rubber during WWII, with an industry by 1952-53. But not sure about rubber bands. Maybe natural rubber was still cheaper then?

http://iisrp.com/WebPolymers/11POLYISOPRENE.pdf

apparently synthetic polyisoprene used in rubber bands now at least?
Apparently 1962, then 1965 were the initial years?
Not sure if synthetic rubber bands would have been used in 1971.

Apparently early experiments in the development of synthetic rubber led to the invention of Silly Putty.

In 1971, the journal Applied Economics had this article, so maybe it was starting?
Natural Rubber Trade: The Implications of Synthetic Rubber Innovations
Philip L Swan
Applied Economics, 1971, vol. 3, issue 1, pages 57-66


The different rubbers have surprisingly different properties.
Examples:

http://www.answers.com/topic/rubber
Butyl rubbers have excellent resistance to oxygen, ozone, and weathering.

One of the first synthetic rubbers used commercially in the rubber industry is neoprene, a polymer of chloroprene, 2-chlorobutadiene-1,3. The neoprenes have exceptional resistance to weather, sun, ozone, and abrasion.


I've also read that certain rubbers crystallize upon stretching. This makes sense when I think of old rubber bands. The "crumbling" may have been accelerated by being in a stretched state.


SO: Any decomposition experiments really need to have the rubber band stretched. How much? There are standard sizes and widths, but we don't know what was used. Maybe just 1/16" bands? but would those have been visible to ingram? Maybe 1/8" and how long? just barely enough for a single bill? 2-1/2"?
(bill is 2.61")


Automobile tires were a big consumer of synthetic rubber.
But in terms of all synthetic rubber uses, in the US in early 70s:

By 1973, of a world output of 6.3 million metric tons [of synthetic rubber], the United States produced about 40 percent, almost three times more than the next greatest producer, Japan. That year, the United States had consumed only 696,000 metric tons of a world output of approximately 3.5 million tons of natural rubber.

[happythoughts 0]

The cash must have arrived at Tenas Bar in a
container and then spilled out.

Separate bundles would not arrive at the same spot (especially if the cash was lost on exit).
That points to the cash successfully remaining in a container, even if not in the possession of DBC.

The rubber bands would have been too fragile
to be exposed to the elements for that amount
of time and still held together the bills during
any travel down the stream.

After some time, the container could have ripped
and then continued on its way.

The remaining cash would just scatter.
During a high volume period, the stream would carry it quickly away.