DB Cooper

[happythoughts 0]

happythoughts said:

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Knives, cutting ropes, and tieing knots.
That narrows it down to... everyone.

"Are you saying it doesn't exclude anyone? I think it does exclude some people."

Sure, my neighbor's six year-old kid that isn't
allowed to play with knives. Who hasn't cut a rope
with a knife? It's not a difficult adult skill.

"Why are you looking for big things? there are none."

Why are we discussing caribiners when there is no
evidence that any ever existed? We have an
attachment method that can be reasonably expected. So, we are trying to come up with a new
and unsupported theory? Waste of time.

Ropes were cut. No other value in that action, but
to use the pieces for a purpose - tieing something.

"What you you have done, happythoughts, if the money arrived in the cloth bag? Would you have had a knife in your pocket? Would you have cut the chute lines and tied it around the money bag?"

Yep. That is some pretty strong stuff.
Plus, you know it is capable of withstanding opening shock on a load.
Is the knapsack a guarantee? No.

"Would you have demanded the original knapsack request, or adjusted because you knew you were running out of time?"

The knapsack would be handy for carrying cash while
running through some woods, but not that important.

"Would you have done what Cooper did or something different?"

Wore casual clothes, instead of a suit and shoes
that fall off. If the knapsack was considered a
better idea, then it would replace the briefcase.
Contents of the knapsack?
- hiking boots, thermal stuff, a parka, and snacks. (Survival supplies)

I'd have eaten a lot of food on the plane while waiting.

I'd have drank excessive amounts of bourbon as
long as it was going to be free.

[snowmman 3]

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Yeah I would wonder about this too, add Snow's point about mainly oval ones being available there. Also ... sorry if the answer to this is lost in the mist of 8000+ posts, but would Cooper have known that there would be no D-rings brought with the rigs?

I thought we agreed that there were D rings on the Pioneer rig, although we can't seem to identify the model. just "type II"

The random experiment was done. Ask for two rigs, and Cooper got a 50% hit rate on D rings.

What do people think would happen if we did the experiment a bunch of times? Would it depend where you did it?

I figure by asking for chest + back, you increase the odds pretty dramatically of getting d-rings.

[georger 197]

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Since the stairs were used at airports...
if a person was at an airport...

...and was watching airplanes through a window.
Perhaps watching friends take off.

The random airport-attending observer could observe
the use of the rear stairs. No research needed, just
the use of some imagination.

Of course, that would add to the list of
suspects "anyone who has been to an airport".

Perhaps the stairs aren't such a big deal.

attached are a few photos of stair configs for the
727 ...

[happythoughts 0]

The pics seem to illustrate that seeing the stairs
down at an airport would be a common place
occurrence.

Their operation would take a little thought or intrigue
to determine.

DBC is standing at an airport window looking at airplanes one day, waiting on a friend to arrive.

"Wow, don't they worry those stairs will fall down?"

Nearby airline employee, "No, they are locked from inside."

[georger 197]

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BTW: I became a grandpa last Sunday afternoon at
4:02pm, PST. The baby and parents are doing very
well - typical proud parents. The baby is just georgeous!

Congratulations Georger! Post or PM a baby photo when you get a chance. There are few life events as joyous as the arrival of a healthy baby into a family that wants him/her.

377

[skyjack71 0]

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Rigger question: if Cooper brought carabiners (like rings that can be clipped onto something) with him, could he have securely clipped the reserve container onto the NB6 or NB 8, whatever the main harness/container actually was?

Carabiner: http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://media.rei.com/media/763404.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.rei.com/product/737864&usg=__BHds3YQOnhzgH6ojBkSbG0XWjlA=&h=440&w=440&sz=27&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=mkCpLYUneWzOJM:&tbnh=127&tbnw=127&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcarabiner%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4GPEA_enUS294US294%26sa%3DN

Jo, does this look like the garage sale item?

377

Bingo! That is a different shape but the little thing on it you could move and it looked like that I have been trying to describe it and yes this is the closet thing I have seen. It was more triangular but the mechanism that moved - that is it - maybe just a little bit longer - but I am not good at judging size from a picture.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 197]

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BTW: I became a grandpa last Sunday afternoon at
4:02pm, PST. The baby and parents are doing very
well - typical proud parents. The baby is just georgeous!

Congratulations
Your first grandchild? nachas!

We are very proud -
Thanks..

[1969912 0]

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Rigger question: if Cooper brought carabiners (like rings that can be clipped onto something) with him, could he have securely clipped the reserve container onto the NB6 or NB 8, whatever the main harness/container actually was?

Carabiner: http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://media.rei.com/media/763404.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.rei.com/product/737864&usg=__BHds3YQOnhzgH6ojBkSbG0XWjlA=&h=440&w=440&sz=27&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=mkCpLYUneWzOJM:&tbnh=127&tbnw=127&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcarabiner%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4GPEA_enUS294US294%26sa%3DN

Jo, does this look like the garage sale item?

377

Bingo! That is a different shape but he little thing on it you could move and it looked like that I have been trying to describe it and yes this is the closet thing I have seen. It was more retangular but the mechanism that moved - that is it - maybe just a little bit longer - but I am not good at judging size from a picture.

So it's a piece of (mountain) climbing hardware, and NOT skydiving hardware that you saw(?).

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[377 21]

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BTW: I became a grandpa last Sunday afternoon at
4:02pm, PST. The baby and parents are doing very
well - typical proud parents. The baby is just georgeous!

Congratulations
Your first grandchild? nachas!

We are very proud -
Thanks..

That is indeed a gorgeous baby! Name?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 21]

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Come on.
You guys go into the weeds so quickly. You can't look at modern carabiner shapes and brainstorm about the shapes common in 1971.

You have to look at carabiner styles that were available/used in 1971.

This has been humbling. Now I know how the non jumpers feel when we sling around terms about our specialized gear. To me a carabiner was a timeless clip of some kind that rock climbers used when doing what they do. They were also worn as mega jewelry or lures of some sort when hanging around the lodge at Yosemite trying to impress tourist girls.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[snowmman 3]

I've been musing over Obama's call to action.

When you look at the return on investment for the Cooper event, it has been a net economic gain. Even just counting the entertainment industry (books, movies).

The effect on the aviation industry was not negative, since it was required anyhow. You could say at any point in the last 37 years, inf fact, that the airline industry should have spent more on security and been right, but hindsight is 20/20, and you can't spend money mitigating all risks and have a growing economy.

Sure there's the little matter of laws, and threatening harm to individuals etc. But that's not been outside of normal business practices in the US, or real outcomes.

So:

We need more Coopers. All positives. No negatives.

[377 21]

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Bingo! That is a different shape but the little thing on it you could move and it looked like that I have been trying to describe it and yes this is the closet thing I have seen. It was more triangular but the mechanism that moved - that is it - maybe just a little bit longer - but I am not good at judging size from a picture.

Snow, Sluggo, what might Jo be describing above?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[377 21]

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We need more Coopers. All positives. No negatives.

Cooper is a hard act to follow. How do you top his caper in today's world? It was right out of a James Bond movie, but Bond was a criminal this time.

What do you do now? Buy one of those rich guy astronaut positions and then hijack the International Space Station for ransom? Escape in a MIR pod that is delivered and docked on your command?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 197]

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BTW: I became a grandpa last Sunday afternoon at
4:02pm, PST. The baby and parents are doing very
well - typical proud parents. The baby is just georgeous!

Congratulations
Your first grandchild? nachas![/reply:

We are very proud -
Thanks..

That is indeed a gorgeous baby! Name?

377

Our first. Sally Elizabath

[georger 197]

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I've been musing over Obama's call to action.

When you look at the return on investment for the Cooper event, it has been a net economic gain. Even just counting the entertainment industry (books, movies).

The effect on the aviation industry was not negative, since it was required anyhow. You could say at any point in the last 37 years, inf fact, that the airline industry should have spent more on security and been right, but hindsight is 20/20, and you can't spend money mitigating all risks and have a growing economy.

Sure there's the little matter of laws, and threatening harm to individuals etc. But that's not been outside of normal business practices in the US, or real outcomes.

So:

We need more Coopers. All positives. No negatives.

Yes. its uniting all the tribes! Nothing but good in this -

[snowmman 3]

here's a picture of a steel oval carabiner, i.e. tenth mountain division army surplus, '50s-'60s. ruler by side for estimating size.
Aluminum was in use by then for climbing, but there were still plenty of steel surplus ones, especially if we're talking about someone like Duane.

modified shapes in '60s-'70s straightened out the oval (then) for extra strength...up to looking like a D. But they were generally symmetric top and bottom. roughly 4"x2", 3/8" rod, spring loaded gate. Steel might weigh 1/2 lb. (aluminum almost all now).

There were some that were pear shaped with threaded gates, but less common.

You general don't want metal to metal when you use a carabiner, to avoid torqueing twists. (like a reserve hook to a carabiner would be a bad idea)

They are used in many sports, as well as industrial settings (tree arborists, window cleaning, tower work).

[georger 197]

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the nb6/nb8 harness does not have a normal type chest strap,like todays rigs(straight across the chest)but rather a piece of webbing that comes from the buckle(there is NO canopy release on an nb6/nb8 harness)at the shoulder then runs at a 45 degree downward angle to either a v ring or a quick ejector snap,then reverses direction and continues at a 45 degree downward angle the the main lift web near theleg strap.if i recall it then becomes one of the back straps. when both sides are hooked up it looks like an X across your chest.BUT all this is a moot point because the rig could have had a b4/b12 harness on it. only cossey would know for sure.

and whatever Cossey told the FBI (over the years
including a call with Ckret), it hasnt been made explicit (publically), except for the D-ring.?

What Tina described sounds very basic, to me.
That doesn't suggest a lot of alternatives or hardware available, or money storage options
for some reason. He did ask for the backpack
but never got it. He didnt complain but went ahead
with the task.

Why would anyone chose to use the money bag
(typing it off at the neck) if you had other storage
and carry alternatives - sounds haphazard to me ?

My wild thought about the brown papaer bag has
always been shoe polish - for his face on a night
excursion (deployment), just like in EU in WWII !

[skyjack71 0]

The guys on the back row of the Uhaul pic - the one in the middle and the one on the right. It was like that and one of the pieces had that grooved thing that locked. It was a flash back and them my mind scrambled again.

I have been at this way too long and somethings are lost to me forever. Whatever it was it opened but locked very securely - with that grooved thing. There was something else on it that locked and unlocked. I can't do this anymore - my brain is fried.

Thank you very much the grooved thing was the dead on part. That upper part also opened if my memory serves me right.

There is a town up off of I-5 called St Helens - he told me he USED to know a woman who lived there who had a shop there. What kind of shop? - I have always wondered. Obviously just a woman. Wonder how many women owned businesses there in 1971? It was at this time he pointed East and told me about an old cemetary there. He said something else about that cemetary - but I have never been able to remember it. This was before we got to the Lewis River turn off and right after he mentioned the town.

Thanks - really apprectiate this.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

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Why would anyone chose to use the money bag
(typing it off at the neck) if you had other storage
and carry alternatives - sounds haphazard to me ?

Did she ACTUALLY say it was tied off at the neck. I thought that was only one of the many books that depicted that. Is this ACTUALLY in transcripts or notes or statements taken?

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

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We need more Coopers. All positives. No negatives.

Cooper is a hard act to follow. How do you top his caper in today's world? It was right out of a James Bond movie, but Bond was a criminal this time.

What do you do now? Buy one of those rich guy astronaut positions and then hijack the International Space Station for ransom? Escape in a MIR pod that is delivered and docked on your command?

377

Okay, so who says the plan has to be all nailed down before you start to execute? It's better not to, that way the FBI will say you're ADD.

What I know so far:
-somehow it involves 377 talking up some good story to people that gets us on a 727 parked out in the Arizona desert. I don't know what 377 says, but that's his problem.

Not sure who's the guy that will know how to fly it, but somehow we get it in the air.

We somehow fly it to Africa without getting shot down, and solving the refuel problem. Given those pics I posted, I think we fly the extra fuel inside the 727, and refuel ourselves in mid-air, but have to work out the details.

We then land on a dirt strip somewhere in Africa. Near some tourist sites, because Orange1 has identified some cool things to see.

Somehow Orange1 is ready on the dirt strip with, I think, gold bars, which I'm not sure where they come from, but they get loaded on the plane.

That's as far as I've gotten.

I think the ending includes kicking out palletized gold bars with parachutes, thru the aft door, and someone riding the last pallet a la Dr. Strangelove.

And somehow we get it all on tape.

I think the actual money gets made from the video, not the crime.

[Erroll 49]

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Somehow Orange1 is ready on the dirt strip with, I think, gold bars a suitcase full of Zimbabwean currency...

Then you can all be billionaires.

[georger 197]

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Why would anyone chose to use the money bag
(typing it off at the neck) if you had other storage
and carry alternatives - sounds haphazard to me ?

Did she ACTUALLY say it was tied off at the neck. I thought that was only one of the many books that depicted that. Is this ACTUALLY in transcripts or notes or statements taken?

What she "actually" said was: "tied off the money
bag and was in the process of tying it around himself... around his waste"

One must conclude you tie off a bag by tying the
open end off? The open end is the neck of the bag.

But, there is a continuing debate about if Cooper
used the original money bag or fashioned another
container. Mucklow says "money bag". There is other
testimony he emptied the money out and was trying to stuff it into the reserve chute container.
Then evidently went back and used the money bag?
The question has never been clarified ...

Posts on this topic here include the following:

Cooper cut cords with a pocket knife and used the pieces to bind the canvass bag the money came in. He never used any pieces of the canopy. Mucklow stated that she saw Cooper securing the money bag with more cut pieces of cord around his waist. (Jan 1 08 Ckret)

Some info to recreate Coopers money bag. Cooper cut all of the line from the chest pack where it was connected into the pack, separating the chute from the pack. By the way, the rubber bands in the pack show no signs of wear. By separating the chute from the pack he must have planned to put the money in the container. When he realized it would not fit, he then cut two lines, one 14'5" and the other 14'6". He then used the line to secure the bag and according to Mucklow to himself. The bag was described as 12"x12"x9"(Ckret Jan 29 08)

12x12x9 and it weighs 22 lbs. 1296 cubic inches and it occupies 5.6 gallons of space. Rubber inside the pack left behind show no signs of wear... again, what causes rubber to become brittle? The Seattle FBI office apparently does not meet the climate conditions required. (SafecrackingPLF Jan 29 08)

I bolded some interesting things. Scott talks about a makeshift waist pack, with money being transferred to it from the original bag. He wouldn't have seen this. So he's interpreting from something. Tina? This would be interesting if there's any truth to it, as it might mean the money arrived on the ground in something other than the bank bag?After cutting up a parachute, he emptied the sack of loot and began stuffing $20 bills into his makeshift waist pack. When Mucklow expressed astonishment at the huge pile of money, Cooper reached over and handed her a stack of bills. ``We can't take tips,'' she said. Instructing Mucklow to go forward, he told her to pull the curtain between the first class and coach sections. He said that she was to turn the lights down, and she wasn't to look back. (Snowmman Jul 8 08 From a speech by pilot SCott)

Tina described the way he was dressed which the description from beginning to end never chaned. I believe if he had changed clothes she would have noted that. There is another item I have never posted or talked about much, thats Alice Hancock. When I have a chance on monday I'll bring her into the picture more. The only thing she adds to the mix is something I have not been able confirm through any of Tina's statements. Hancock got off in Seattle. As she was leaving she remembered she forgot her purse and went back to get it. It was near Cooper, she approached and asked his permission if she could retrive it. He said of course, I am not going to hurt you (I'll get her exact words in the morning). She said when she was getting her purse she noticed Cooper was wearing or in the process of putting on one of the chutes. If we combine that with Mucklow stating to the crew when she entered the cockit a few minutes after takeoff, "I think he is getting ready to jump." It lends to my theory of why he wanted the stairs down at takeoff, which is, he fully intended to jump just after wheels up. It makes me think Muckow must have, or the agent interviewing her glossed over the way Cooper was dressed as she last saw him. She stated he was securing the bag to his waist. Perhaps there was an assumption by both Tina and the agent that it was known Cooper had the chute on at this point and there was no need to document it, just the final securing of the money bag It would make sense that Cooper had he chute on when he was securing the bag to himself. After all, if he did not have the chute on, what would he be securing the bag to? (Ckret Mar 30 08)

[SKYWHUFFO 0]

I am confused, I thought Cooper was in the toilet when the people left the plane????? How could he give Alice permission to get her purse in the tiolet? Is there two different stories coming out here or am i mixed up?

D

[Orange1 0]

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I am confused, I thought Cooper was in the toilet when the people left the plane????? How could he give Alice permission to get her purse in the tiolet? Is there two different stories coming out here or am i mixed up?

D

If you look at the transcripts it appears that Cooper was in the toilet when people were leaving. I have never heard of this Alice before, Georger? Source? Also -- i need to go back and check, but were the passengers told of the hijacking before they left the plane - for some reason I seem to think not. I know at first they were keeping the real situation from the passengers but not sure exactly when they were told what was going on. I also half recall someone wanting to go back to fetch something but not being allowed to - but I may be mixing this up with another incident.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 197]

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I am confused, I thought Cooper was in the toilet when the people left the plane????? How could he give Alice permission to get her purse in the tiolet? Is there two different stories coming out here or am i mixed up?

D

If you look at the transcripts it appears that Cooper was in the toilet when people were leaving. I have never heard of this Alice before, Georger? Source? Also -- i need to go back and check, but were the passengers told of the hijacking before they left the plane - for some reason I seem to think not. I know at first they were keeping the real situation from the passengers but not sure exactly when they were told what was going on. I also half recall someone wanting to go back to fetch something but not being allowed to - but I may be mixing this up with another incident.

from Sluggo's website:
The flight's pilot was Captain William Scott, 51, who had been flying for Northwest for 20 years. Also aboard were First Officer William "Bill" Rataczak, Flight Engineer Harold E. Anderson, and three flight attendants, Alice Hancock (the Senior Flight Attendant)
age 24, Tina Mucklow, 22, and Florence Schaffner, 23. Mucklow and Schaffner each had less than 24 months in the air.

Hancock's position was at the front of the plane.
Except for the purse incident, she pretty much stayed at her position (observing) during the flight to Seattle
and taking care of passengers....
I think she is mentioned once (maybe twice) in the
PI Transcipt, called Alice. After Schafner got the note from Cooper, she showed it to Muckow (they discussed it briefly) then she went forward and showed the note
to Hancock. Hancock and Schafner took the note in to
Scott... Hancock spent most of her time tending to
passengers and trying to keep a normal profile
during the flight. She left the plane with Schafner at SEA.

The stews were still on the plane after the passengers
had been off-loaded. Then Hancock and Schafner
helped bring things on board (food, chutes, money,
charts, etc) ... then Hancock and Schafner were allowed
to leave the plane; but Alice forgot her purse and went
back for it ... Alice and Flo left the plane together and went down and were put in Al Lee's car, then transferred to another car and taken back to the terminal ... Ckret has more on Alice...

There were several retrieval incidents: Alice going
back for her purse, a man trying to get back in for his
suitcase or something (tackled by Rataczak at the ladder and sent back), another guy trying to get back to the ladder but called back, ...

the above is the best I can do ...