DB Cooper

[snowmman 3]

orange1 mentioned:
"(Skydiving fact: when jumping at Skydive Cape Town, you can see our local nuclear power station from the air and it is in the background of many photos. The odd wayward - really wayward - skydiver has in fact landed in the grounds, to be met by a very frosty reception.) "

see that's the problem with all these things they tell us about security for this and that. It's bogus..can't be made ironclad.

When push comes to shove, if the security policies are real, you have to have people shoot down skydivers that land on the White House, or in a nuclear facility. And that doesn't happen.

Yes SA is the only sane country in the world. Unilaterally threw away it's weapons.

Wouldn't it be great if the US did that. It's the only sane policy. If I was in charge of nuclear safety programmes, that's what I would do.

Having nuclear weapons does nothing for a country. Hell it's probably invevitable that someone's going to eventually get hit with a kiloton level weapon for some weird reason, and the only sane thing then is no retaliation anyhow.

The reason the guys got to build 15 megaton weapons was always just because it was fun and they were able to keep it secret. There was never any sane reason. Still no sane reason.

Me? I'd say go ahead Iran, build your nukes. So what. They're going to drop them on Israel? No way.

[377 21]

Quote

Quote

Wasn't there some strong localized seismic event off South Africa a long time ago that was correlated with some other nuke blast indicator and world opinion/suspicion pointed to Israel?

Any of you have the secret decoder ring for Jo's last post?

377, I think this is what you refer to? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vela_Incident

Georger - lol

Thanks Georger. My memory was inaccurate, it was optical not seismic artifacts that started the mystery.

Here is another mystery "blast?" for you.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9D0DEFDC133BF932A15756C0A963948260

Feynman is gone but the legend lives on. I read one of his book, the one with "surely you jest" in the title. Huge brain, but huge ego too.

Been thinking about Cooper and the fact that no really likely suspects went permanently missing after the caper. Makes me think he lived and went back to his normal life as if nothing had happened. Just a guess though, he might have died on the jump and never been found.

Some mysteries just never get solved.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[skyjack71 0]

I need for you guys to tell me what kind of cap Duane has on. I think I did this before - the other photo showed the typical - white sailor hat - But this is some kind of beret. Date on back of picture indicates 1941 - this appears to be the type of photo one would do on leave following basic.

I do know that he was barely 16 when he enlisted because his mother changed his birth certificate to read 1924 when according to family records he was born in 1925.

I am not familiar with military caps and what their designations are.

Also compare this photo to the 1945 Firecrew pic from CPS.

After getting kicked out of the Navy he joins the Army and was stationed at Camp Siebert - a family member reported Duane confiscated a Commanding Officer's vehicle and went out on the town. It is uncertain what happend after this - the government finally produce discharge papers, but it was suggested from records he went AWOL showing up in CA. where his parent had to moved to from Stow, Ohio that yr.

At one time his mother either cooked for or managed a Smorgasborg.

CKRET: Did you get that?

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[snowmman 3]

couple of things.

Google Earth has a new release.

I'd swear I get more detail now when I fly around the Fazio's. But the data is from July 2005, which doesn't seem all that new. So maybe it's just they tweaked it up a bit.

In any case, I did two things today I wanted to try

1) a flyby at 10,000 ft, with 45 degree view down to the ground, looking in the direction of travel. From 2012 to 2018, flying about twice the speed of Flight 305 (rough estimate). The blue line is at 1640 ft. altitude so it stays above the terrain.

2) another flyby, at lower altitude, from the Columbia crossing, to the money find location.

3) I could post the kmls if anyone here has GE installed. you just click on the .kml and GE opens and does the flyby. The "possible drift" one is interesting cause we've not stared at that as much.

I made a movie of these flybys, uploaded the flight path one to Youtube. The resolution sucks on Youtube. Too much info in the images.

But it may be useful for people who don't fire up Google Earth. There was a recent comment here about DB jumping into wilderness, which I thought was odd after all our discussions.

Maybe I need to redo it with a smaller video region, so there's less information in the picture.

I didn't bother annotating, although sluggo's ticks are there, and the straight line flight path that connects them.

You can see I'm a little bit wobbly on the stick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmAcKZYgUak&feature=channel_page

[Orange1 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Wasn't there some strong localized seismic event off South Africa a long time ago that was correlated with some other nuke blast indicator and world opinion/suspicion pointed to Israel?

Any of you have the secret decoder ring for Jo's last post?

377, I think this is what you refer to? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vela_Incident

Georger - lol

Thanks Georger. My memory was inaccurate, it was optical not seismic artifacts that started the mystery.

Here is another mystery "blast?" for you.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9D0DEFDC133BF932A15756C0A963948260

Feynman is gone but the legend lives on. I read one of his book, the one with "surely you jest" in the title. Huge brain, but huge ego too.

Been thinking about Cooper and the fact that no really likely suspects went permanently missing after the caper. Makes me think he lived and went back to his normal life as if nothing had happened. Just a guess though, he might have died on the jump and never been found.

Some mysteries just never get solved.

377

your reading is inaccurate too twas i posted the link ... the one-word message to Georger after it seems to have confused you

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

(edited to add: other than an SA parabat beret I am also not familiar with military headwear. but i do know what a sailor suit looks like. see attached)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[georger 197]

Quote

couple of things.

Google Earth has a new release.

I'd swear I get more detail now when I fly around the Fazio's. But the data is from July 2005, which doesn't seem all that new. So maybe it's just they tweaked it up a bit.

In any case, I did two things today I wanted to try

1) a flyby at 10,000 ft, with 45 degree view down to the ground, looking in the direction of travel. From 2012 to 2018, flying about twice the speed of Flight 305 (rough estimate). The blue line is at 1640 ft. altitude so it stays above the terrain.

2) another flyby, at lower altitude, from the Columbia crossing, to the money find location.

3) I could post the kmls if anyone here has GE installed. you just click on the .kml and GE opens and does the flyby. The "possible drift" one is interesting cause we've not stared at that as much.

I made a movie of these flybys, uploaded the flight path one to Youtube. The resolution sucks on Youtube. Too much info in the images.

But it may be useful for people who don't fire up Google Earth. There was a recent comment here about DB jumping into wilderness, which I thought was odd after all our discussions.

Maybe I need to redo it with a smaller video region, so there's less information in the picture.

I didn't bother annotating, although sluggo's ticks are there, and the straight line flight path that connects them.

You can see I'm a little bit wobbly on the stick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmAcKZYgUak&feature=channel_page

Its interesting ... will give it more looks before
commenting...

[georger 197]

Quote

I need for you guys to tell me what kind of cap Duane has on. I think I did this before - the other photo showed the typical - white sailor hat - But this is some kind of beret. Date on back of picture indicates 1941 - this appears to be the type of photo one would do on leave following basic.

I do know that he was barely 16 when he enlisted because his mother changed his birth certificate to read 1924 when according to family records he was born in 1925.

I am not familiar with military caps and what their designations are.

Also compare this photo to the 1945 Firecrew pic from CPS.

After getting kicked out of the Navy he joins the Army and was stationed at Camp Siebert - a family member reported Duane confiscated a Commanding Officer's vehicle and went out on the town. It is uncertain what happend after this - the government finally produce discharge papers, but it was suggested from records he went AWOL showing up in CA. where his parent had to moved to from Stow, Ohio that yr.

At one time his mother either cooked for or managed a Smorgasborg.

CKRET: Did you get that?

It says US Navy. Not sure of the year of the cap -
attached -

[1969912 0]

Quote

It says US Navy. Not sure of the year of the cap -
attached -

Nice one!

thanks

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[snowmman 3]

1) First pic: Richard Nixon practicing PLF's. The rumor is that he heard about the successful jump Cooper had done from the 727, and wanted South Africa to let him try the jump also. He wanted to be the first US president to static line a 727. The operation was scrubbed only when Elvis refused to do it with him.

2) Supposedly "Dan Cooper" was obsessed with Robert Oppenheimer, and had plastic surgery to change his facial appearance to look like Oppenheimer. When 305 landed in Reno, this second picture was found taped up on the aft bulkhead, in place of the placard

3) Hanford Engineer Works, in Richland, WA, was one of the 14 bases of operation for the Manhattan Project.
It was equal to Los Alamos and Oak Ridge in importance.

Apparently "Dan Cooper" worked at the Hanford Engineer Works while in college. He felt he missed out on the real action, leading to his single-mindedness in South Africa.

Most of Dan's experience with the Columbia River was from his time at Hanford.

[Orange1 0]

Snow, you're so good at research...was Robert Oppenheimer any relation to the Oppenheimer dynasty in SA? I have always wondered that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Oppenheimer

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[snowmman 3]

Quote

Its interesting ... will give it more looks before
commenting...

do you have Google Earth installed, with a decent speed web connection? If so, I'll post the kml. The resolution is VASTLY improved with that. (if you do the flyby a couple times, then it's smooth since all the data gets cached on your machine, assuming, your PC ain't too old.

I suppose I could upload a hi-res vid somewhere. But maybe I just need to change the point-of-view to have less image. (so better resolution).

[377 21]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Wasn't there some strong localized seismic event off South Africa a long time ago that was correlated with some other nuke blast indicator and world opinion/suspicion pointed to Israel?

Any of you have the secret decoder ring for Jo's last post?

377, I think this is what you refer to? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vela_Incident

Georger - lol

Thanks Georger. My memory was inaccurate, it was optical not seismic artifacts that started the mystery.

Here is another mystery "blast?" for you.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9D0DEFDC133BF932A15756C0A963948260

Feynman is gone but the legend lives on. I read one of his book, the one with "surely you jest" in the title. Huge brain, but huge ego too.

Been thinking about Cooper and the fact that no really likely suspects went permanently missing after the caper. Makes me think he lived and went back to his normal life as if nothing had happened. Just a guess though, he might have died on the jump and never been found.

Some mysteries just never get solved.

377

your reading is inaccurate too twas i posted the link ... the one-word message to Georger after it seems to have confused you

Thanks for setting it straight Orange, I am easy to confuse. You are quite the Internet researcher. You and Snow have the special "friends of Sergey" password for the Turbo Google, don't you. Please say yes. Then I won't feel so bad for being out 727'd by you guys.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 197]

Quote

Quote

Its interesting ... will give it more looks before
commenting...

do you have Google Earth installed, with a decent speed web connection? If so, I'll post the kml. The resolution is VASTLY improved with that. (if you do the flyby a couple times, then it's smooth since all the data gets cached on your machine, assuming, your PC ain't too old.

I suppose I could upload a hi-res vid somewhere. But maybe I just need to change the point-of-view to have less image. (so better resolution).

I do but on another computer at work - not at home.
I thought your perspective was pretty good but it
wouldnt hurt to have a closer in version? If you can upload it someplace I will grab it ...

you need to work something out with Sluggo so we
can use his site ?? Oh Sluggo?? Where art thou?

G.

[snowmman 3]

Okay I did another one at 6400 ft, with smaller region.
I did the flying manually this time, a little fast...just one minute to cover the 2010 to 20:18 flight path

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-hzsZgUSck

(edit) woops sorry about the typo on the link. okay now.

[377 21]

Very interesting Snow. I see a lot of places to land OK.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 197]

Quote

Snow, you're so good at research...was Robert Oppenheimer any relation to the Oppenheimer dynasty in SA? I have always wondered that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Oppenheimer

I dont know if there's a relation. If there is it would have to go back to the Hanau district (east of Frankfurt) in Germany (1800s) where Robert's mother and father both came from. Robt's father;s full name was Benjamin Pinhas (or Pinhaus) Oppenheimer, born
May 12, 1871 at Hanau.

I do know this. Robt's father had no schooling and
came from a family of poor schtetel farmers, but
he had a real talent for business and kept ledgers
in his head. Robert's father later taught himself how
to write and do arithmetic. The family was Jewish but
not orthodox. Robt's father made enough
money selling grain one year to bring the family
to New York City. Robt was born in NYC. There were other members of the Oppenheimer family who immigrated around the same time, from the same
district - they all gathered in New York City. Robert's
mother was an artist of some kind (painting and music).

My thought is if the two families are related its on a
deep level before the time of Robert's father ...

Harry Oppenheimer's father was Sir Ernest Oppenheimer (22 May 1880 – 25 November 1957) was a diamond and gold mining entrepreneur financier and philanthropist, who controlled De Beers and founded the Anglo American Corporation of South Africa.

Ernest was born in Friedberg, Germany, the son of Edward Oppenheimer, a cigar merchant. Oppenheimer began his working life at 17, when he entered Dunkelsbuhler & Company, a diamond brokerage in London. His efforts impressed his employer and in 1902, at the age of 22, he was sent to South Africa to represent the company as a buyer in Kimberley.

He died in Johannesburg in 1957. He was born Jewish but as an adult converted to Christianity and was buried at St George's Church, Parktown. He was succeeded in the business by his son Harry Oppenheimer. Oppenheimer's brother, Sir Bernard Oppenheimer, was also heavily involved in the diamond industry. (all of this from wikipedia)


The reason I answered this is because I had Oppy
as a professor at the U of C in the summer of 1961.

There seems to be a large difference in wealth and social status betwene the two families by 1880-85
if the two families are linked.

[snowmman 3]

Okay, this pic I tried to be a little artistic. This GE has the ability to emulate sun/dark depending on time of day. They create shadows based on where the sun is, and ground feature elevations.


(also: hey this new GE has the ability to look at imagery back as far as they go. They have black and white stuff from 1990 around Vancouver and Tena's Bar, but I didn't see anything interesting..other than that I NEVER saw those 1974 plumes (which I think are dredge spoils) in the sand at Tena's Bar, at any time from 1990 to 2007. Also there's an inlet in 1990, that gets covered with sand)


The attached picture, is as if Cooper is standing on the back stairs, just as the plane hits the Columbia. The tail is pointing towards the blue line of the flight path they took.

I-205 is there, but it wasn't in 1971 (I labelled that)

What's cool, is you can see Mt St. Helens, and Mt. Adams in the background. You're at approximately 10,000 ft.

I didn't realize Mt. Adams would look so big from there. They both may have been above the cloud level. Don't know if there was any year round snow on 11/24/71 that might have glistened in the moonlight.

But you'd see the headlights on the roads shown.

The glow from Vancouver isn't shown.

Time to jump! now!

It's interesting how, looking backwards, there aren't very many reference points. I think it helps reinforce that seeing Vancouver might have been a strong Go! signal.

We've had this view before, but this is an approximation of dark/light around 5pm. (I didn't go later, because I wanted to see the ground in the pic)

(edit) Mt. Adams is over 12,000 ft. Mt Helens is 8363 ft. now. It was 9677 feet before South Africa dropped a nuclear weapon on it on May 18,1980, shortly after the Indian Ocean test. That accounts for the 6th weapon, although the location of the 5th is still undetermined.

[snowmman 3]

georger said:

"The reason I answered this is because I had Oppy
as a professor at the U of C in the summer of 1961. "

Interesting info georger, thanks.

See I knew Oppenheimer was on-topic for the thread, as well as nukes and peanut allergies. I'm more on-topic than Jo, in terms of thread participants' interests/backgrounds.

on US current capabilities, 8/07
per http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Usa/Weapons/Wpngall.html

"At the beginning of 2007 the U.S. nuclear arsenal was composed of eight types of nuclear warheads (in thirteen variant mods) that are operationally deployed, with an estimated count of 5,736 active stockpile warheads."

"The total number of warheads of all levels of readiness stands at 9,962 warheads."

"The total megatonnage of the deployed nuclear arsenal is about 1,430 Mt... for the entire active arsenal it is 2,330 Mt. The all-time high point in explosive yield was in 1960 when the U.S. held 20,491 Mt in its stockpile."

"The United States has produced about 70,000 nuclear weapons of 72 major types since their invention."

Robert Palmer knew:

She's so fine, there's no telling where the money went
She's all mine, there's no other way to go.

Her methods are inscrutable, the proof is irrefutable (Um-Um),
She's so completely kissable, (HUH), our lives are indivisible (yea-yeah).

She's a craze you'll endorse, she's a powerful force,
You're obliged to conform, when there's no other course.
She used to look good to me but now I find her...
Simply irresistible...Simply irresistible.

(edit) per http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/nukes/publications1/USStockpile2007-2012.pdf

estimated reductions to 5032 by 2012.
does that matter?

[georger 197]

Quote

georger said:

"The reason I answered this is because I had Oppy
as a professor at the U of C in the summer of 1961. "

Interesting info georger, thanks.

See I knew Oppenheimer was on-topic for the thread, as well as nukes and peanut allergies. I'm more on-topic than Jo, in terms of thread participants' interests/backgrounds.

Reply> Orange raised an interesting question about
the Oppenheimer lineage. It would be interesting to
know if the families merge somewhere ~1830 or
before in Germany. My family has some similar
origins and when Oppy found that out he asked me
what I knew! I was almost stumped (a rank kid at
the time).

A lot of middle European Jewish families found their
way to America via two routes: an earlier migration
to England and then to America, and a later migration
direct from Germany to America - mine the first route,
Oppy's (according to him) the later route. Most of us
at one time or another living in rural cirumstances (schtetels) in Germany, Poland, or wherever.

Maybe Orange can turn something up, but this is
definately the kind of thing that would have captivated
Oppenheimer no end ... and maybe Oppy would have
been able to answer Orange's question, directly -

Maybe I will poke around when I get some time and
see what I can find ...

• Quote

[snowmman 3]

I thought at first the Duane outfit might be a costume, because of the lack of shoulder insignia.

But I found some pictures that match the hat. It appears to be 1941 or 1942 issue USN, winter dress blues.

The one stripe on the sleeve might indicate the lowest possible rank? The neckerchief and collar seem odd compare to other photos. I've noticed that the hats seemed to be bent down on the sides for the more experienced looking sailors. since Duane's hat is flat, maybe he just enlisted?

(edit) actually: the pic labelled "USN probably 1942" which is the cover a book covering USN uniforms up to 1942, looks like it has the one shoulder bar like Duane's photo. So maybe that's a good match (although the photo is small.

maybe 3 bars on the sleeve means 3rd class? (in the attached photos)

That one gold? white? trim on one shoulder is odd.
Could it be a costume? It does seem 1942 era though.

Pics attached of real USN 1941-42 that sort of match

(edit) a 320 pp. book was just published in 2007 that would be exactly what you want Jo.
http://books.google.com/books?id=VvFBGQAACAAj

There are some used copies of the book for $50 at amazon
http://www.amazon.com/U-s-Uniforms-Insignia-1940-1942-World/dp/0764325833/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233655798&sr=8-1

[Orange1 0]

Quote

A lot of middle European Jewish families found their way to America via two routes: an earlier migration to England and then to America, and a later migration direct from Germany to America - mine the first route, Oppy's (according to him) the later route. Most of us at one time or another living in rural cirumstances (schtetels) in Germany, Poland, or wherever.

Maybe Orange can turn something up, but this is
definately the kind of thing that would have captivated Oppenheimer no end ... and maybe Oppy would have been able to answer Orange's question, directly -

Maybe I will poke around when I get some time and
see what I can find ...

Interesting. There were generally 2 Jewish "migrations" to SA as well - the first was around the diamond and then gold rush in the late 1800s and very early 1900s, the second was in the lead up to and around WW2 for horribly obvious reasons. While Ernest Oppenheimer technically forms part of the first, as Georger has noted his lineage is different from the average - most of the rest came directly from the shtetls (and most of them from Lithuania by the way), irrespective of whether they joined the first or second migration.
There is a lot of fascinating history, and all well depicted in the SA Jewish Museum in Cape Town if any of you do ever make it out here, but if anyone is interested in exploring further probably better to take it to PM than use up forum space on it.

btw we watched Fiddler on the Roof last weekend...!! and now this discussion.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Orange1 0]

Quote

The neckerchief and collar seem odd compare to other photos.

Not compared to the photo I posted, though ;)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[377 21]

Quote

I need for you guys to tell me what kind of cap Duane has on. I think I did this before - the other photo showed the typical - white sailor hat - But this is some kind of beret. Date on back of picture indicates 1941 - this appears to be the type of photo one would do on leave following basic.

I do know that he was barely 16 when he enlisted because his mother changed his birth certificate to read 1924 when according to family records he was born in 1925.

I am not familiar with military caps and what their designations are.

Also compare this photo to the 1945 Firecrew pic from CPS.

After getting kicked out of the Navy he joins the Army and was stationed at Camp Siebert - a family member reported Duane confiscated a Commanding Officer's vehicle and went out on the town. It is uncertain what happend after this - the government finally produce discharge papers, but it was suggested from records he went AWOL showing up in CA. where his parent had to moved to from Stow, Ohio that yr.

At one time his mother either cooked for or managed a Smorgasborg.

CKRET: Did you get that?

The Duane sailor picture shows (to my eye) very prominent protruding ear structure. Kids with ears like that were teased and called DUMBO, the Disney cartoon elephant who flew by flapping his ears.

I don't see such ears in the Cooper FBI sketches. Do ears like this on a a 16 year old youth tuck in more flush with the head as he ages? Georger?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[Orange1 0]

I also thought the ears looked particularly prominent.

Apparently ears stay the same width but grow longer as we age. Nothing about ears "tucking in".
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/05/26/the_odd_body_ears/

In 1990, Drs L Pelz and B Stein from Medical Branch of the University of Rostock in Germany measured the ears of 1,271 children and adolescents. They report in Padiatrie und Grenzgebiete that ear length increases "steadily and annually", but ear width remains the same.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.