DB Cooper

[georger 197]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Gunther is not a reporter and he admits it may all be a hoax though he believes it was Cooper. Gunther mixes his research on the case with "Clara's" accounts and clearly both have errors..

The FBI thought it was a hoax not based on evidence for a hoax but lack of evidence for legitimacy.

So, where is the hoax then..

Gunther was contacted by somebody claiming to be Cooper.. most likely true.

Gunther was contacted 10 years later by a "Clara".. probably true.

Gunther did case research and incorporated it.. there were some obvious errors.

The person claiming to be Cooper was motivated by money..

But, Clara's motivation was different.. something changed in the 10 years... it was to publicize via Gunther that Cooper was dead and he was a actually good guy, this is an attempt to rehabilitate Cooper's public image and close the search for him.. with that agenda Clara's account can be somewhat made up, embellished or twisted enough to hide real identities.

So, hoax or not?? 

Is Clara's agenda consistent with a hoaxer, not really. She didn't ask for money and seemed to be  trying to end the search for Cooper.

So, if there is a hoax it was both the initial "Cooper" and "Clara" a decade apart with the final agenda to end the search for Cooper.. 

Who would have that motivation and why? Somebody or group trying to establish a false public narrative. 

The real Cooper still alive and an associate would be more likely than a hoaxer... any others?

I do have some very interesting evidence but we need more to determine if it was a hoax or not which is why I did a FOIA.

Ciu Bono??

 

 

 

Why would DB Cooper contact some obscure 'author socalled' named Gunther ?  When he could have contacted the famous one-arm logger "Axeman" instead ?  Or the tele-evangalist Billy Grahm ?  

I am sure famous important people are contracting obscure nobodies every day - to get their stories out!  Thats what makes America great!  From obscurity to fame and fortune with just one phone call.  FOX will do the rest and cut you in .... People will be talking about it for 100 years!

Edited October 10, 2022 by georger

[Math of Insects 96]

7 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Gunther is not a reporter and he admits it may all be a hoax though he believes it was Cooper. Gunther mixes his research on the case with "Clara's" accounts and clearly both have errors..

The FBI thought it was a hoax not based on evidence for a hoax but lack of evidence for legitimacy.

So, where is the hoax then..

Gunther was contacted by somebody claiming to be Cooper.. most likely true.

Gunther was contacted 10 years later by a "Clara".. probably true.

Gunther did case research and incorporated it.. there were some obvious errors.

The person claiming to be Cooper was motivated by money..

But, Clara's motivation was different.. something changed in the 10 years... it was to publicize via Gunther that Cooper was dead and he was a actually good guy, this is an attempt to rehabilitate Cooper's public image and close the search for him.. with that agenda Clara's account can be somewhat made up, embellished or twisted enough to hide real identities.

So, hoax or not?? 

Is Clara's agenda consistent with a hoaxer, not really. She didn't ask for money and seemed to be  trying to end the search for Cooper.

So, if there is a hoax it was both the initial "Cooper" and "Clara" a decade apart with the final agenda to end the search for Cooper.. 

Who would have that motivation and why? Somebody or group trying to establish a false public narrative. 

The real Cooper still alive and an associate would be more likely than a hoaxer... any others?

I do have some very interesting evidence but we need more to determine if it was a hoax or not which is why I did a FOIA.

Ciu Bono??

 

 

 

Thank you for this additional context.

Did Gunther ever write about the contact from "Cooper," in the years before he heard from Clara and wrote his book?

If yes, I think the "gain" for a fake Clara could be easily explained in many common ways. Notoriety, wanting to feel important, wanting to piggyback on a suddenly rising pop cultural icon. Lots of people claim importance for a little moment of borrowed glory. 

If no, then indeed the only two options are Gunther made Clara up, or she was real and somehow connected to that first contact.

Gunther gains in both of those scenarios, funny enough. I am less clear on Clara's "agenda" in that case, as you note, and your guesses/conclusions seem as likely as any. 

But since that latter scenario has a single explanation, and it involves many variables (Cooper lived, Cooper tried to confess to multiple reporters, he also took the time to make sure Clara got birthday wishes, he got no money and no articles but still dropped immediately out of sight forever, placing no future birthday ads, Clara was real and also stayed silent until she contacted Gunther and does the thing Cooper could have done years before, etc); and since the former leaves no real questions unanswered, I still think parsimony suggests fake-Clara.

Elsinore is a huge factor. If testimony about this encounter is later proved unreliable, how would Clara even know about it to tell it as truth? If it didn't happen, there is nothing for her to know. But Gunther could certainly have FOIA'd his way into knowing it.

That's a tough one to get past.

[olemisscub 466]

9 hours ago, georger said:

Why would DB Cooper contact some obscure 'author socalled' named Gunther ? 

In the book it’s because Gunther wrote an article for a men’s magazine about how to abandon your family. “Cooper” read this article and it inspired him to leave his family in search of adventure, which ultimately culminated in NORJAK.

[CooperNWO305 146]

3 hours ago, Math of Insects said:

Thank you for this additional context.

Did Gunther ever write about the contact from "Cooper," in the years before he heard from Clara and wrote his book?

If yes, I think the "gain" for a fake Clara could be easily explained in many common ways. Notoriety, wanting to feel important, wanting to piggyback on a suddenly rising pop cultural icon. Lots of people claim importance for a little moment of borrowed glory. 

If no, then indeed the only two options are Gunther made Clara up, or she was real and somehow connected to that first contact.

Gunther gains in both of those scenarios, funny enough. I am less clear on Clara's "agenda" in that case, as you note, and your guesses/conclusions seem as likely as any. 

But since that latter scenario has a single explanation, and it involves many variables (Cooper lived, Cooper tried to confess to multiple reporters, he also took the time to make sure Clara got birthday wishes, he got no money and no articles but still dropped immediately out of sight forever, placing no future birthday ads, Clara was real and also stayed silent until she contacted Gunther and does the thing Cooper could have done years before, etc); and since the former leaves no real questions unanswered, I still think parsimony suggests fake-Clara.

Elsinore is a huge factor. If testimony about this encounter is later proved unreliable, how would Clara even know about it to tell it as truth? If it didn't happen, there is nothing for her to know. But Gunther could certainly have FOIA'd his way into knowing it.

That's a tough one to get past.

Life isn’t simple. Things happen that are not simple or on a single thread. You say a lot and use words like parsimony as if it is a DNA or blood test or some fine measurement. Cooper living and someone calling an author is fairly simple. It’s not convoluted. 
 

Your posts are kind of long winded. Can you just let the group know if you think Gunther made up the whole thing? 

[FLYJACK 654]

5 hours ago, Math of Insects said:

Thank you for this additional context.

Did Gunther ever write about the contact from "Cooper," in the years before he heard from Clara and wrote his book?

If yes, I think the "gain" for a fake Clara could be easily explained in many common ways. Notoriety, wanting to feel important, wanting to piggyback on a suddenly rising pop cultural icon. Lots of people claim importance for a little moment of borrowed glory. 

If no, then indeed the only two options are Gunther made Clara up, or she was real and somehow connected to that first contact.

Gunther gains in both of those scenarios, funny enough. I am less clear on Clara's "agenda" in that case, as you note, and your guesses/conclusions seem as likely as any. 

But since that latter scenario has a single explanation, and it involves many variables (Cooper lived, Cooper tried to confess to multiple reporters, he also took the time to make sure Clara got birthday wishes, he got no money and no articles but still dropped immediately out of sight forever, placing no future birthday ads, Clara was real and also stayed silent until she contacted Gunther and does the thing Cooper could have done years before, etc); and since the former leaves no real questions unanswered, I still think parsimony suggests fake-Clara.

Elsinore is a huge factor. If testimony about this encounter is later proved unreliable, how would Clara even know about it to tell it as truth? If it didn't happen, there is nothing for her to know. But Gunther could certainly have FOIA'd his way into knowing it.

That's a tough one to get past.

Gunther was a prolific writer, he didn't need a Cooper piece per se. It was too big a risk to make up Carla and submit it to the FBI for evaluation.. no way.. lying to the FBI is serious stuff. Carla, however, would not talk to the FBI and that suggests she was not being completely truthful. So, if it was a hoax it wasn't Gunther. I don't think it is a crime to hoax a writer without demanding money...

As for Elsinore, I am not a fan of the connection as many others are. It isn't actually mentioned in Gunther's book, names and places would have been changed.. LA area may be a random coincidence or come up in Gunther's research.

Lyle Cameron made the initial report of somebody possibly being Cooper at Elsinore but after the FBI got serious he walked it back dramatically.. (it is in the FBI files).  I think he embellished his encounter with that guy at Elsinore then got scared when the FBI took it seriously. It would have been great publicity. 

As for the timeline, I have a working theory with supporting evidence that fits it all...  explains the 10 year gap and motivations.

So, IMO, if there is a hoax it wasn't Gunther. He was contacted by the real Cooper/Clara or a couple of hoaxers. It was just too risky for Gunther to submit fake evidence to the FBI risking both his reputation and career. No way he would do that for a book.

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by FLYJACK

[CooperNWO305 146]

Gunther was in a no win situation. If he didn’t report it, then he could be criticized. Lying to the FBI is a crime. Big time. He could have lost a lot. He also mentions Ed Kuhn and Mark Penzer in his book. Ed died before the book was published, but Mark was alive. So now you have Gunther lying about someone else. Very unlikely. 
 

Like anything in this case, nothing is for certain. However, I’d bank on it that Gunther was contacted by someone. What happened next and in what order is up to interpretation. 
 

As for Gunther making things up. He had to add filler. The whole section on the disappearance is taken from his True article. How do you write a 200 page book off just a few phone calls and letters? You don’t. You have to take liberties. Gunther was not writing for the New York Times or going on NBC at the time. He was into entertainment. Now if it was today, he would not need to verify much, he could just print it and let people think what they want. Journalism is a dying breed. 

[Math of Insects 96]

47 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Gunther was a prolific writer, he didn't need a Cooper piece per se. It was too big a risk to make up Carla and submit it to the FBI for evaluation.. no way.. lying to the FBI is serious stuff. Carla, however, would not talk to the FBI and that suggests she was not being completely truthful. So, if it was a hoax it wasn't Gunther. I don't think it is a crime to hoax a writer without demanding money...

As for Elsinore, I am not a fan of the connection as many others are. It isn't actually mentioned in Gunther's book, names and places would have been changed.. LA area may be a random coincidence or come up in Gunther's research.

Lyle Cameron made the initial report of somebody possibly being Cooper at Elsinore but after the FBI got serious he walked it back dramatically.. (it is in the FBI files).  I think he embellished his encounter with that guy at Elsinore then got scared when the FBI took it seriously. It would have been great publicity. 

As for the timeline, I have a working theory with supporting evidence that fits it all...  explains the 10 year gap and motivations.

So, IMO, if there is a hoax it wasn't Gunther. He was contacted by the real Cooper/Clara or a couple of hoaxers. It was just too risky for Gunther to submit fake evidence to the FBI risking both his reputation and career. No way he would do that for a book.

 

Thank you.

I agree that the way you've presented it, it feels more like there was a "Clara" than was not. I am not quite as quick to say an author wouldn't "need" a book or want to capitalize on the zeitgeist, but I follow the reasoning that there were plenty of other ways to achieve this that didn't involve lying to the FBI. The needle is moving.

I'll be eager to see what you've come up with.

I just want to clarify one element, and if you're inclined I'd love to be talked through it. It's a sticking point for me. If you're tired of covering the same ground and want to move on, I'd understand that as well.

Here's the issue: Cameron says his thing about the Elsinore encounter (I agree, likely falsely. I have never believed that element). Clara says something that generally lines up with that claim. That match-up is often used to give legitimacy to the book (and Cameron).

But if Elsinore didn't happen (which I believe it didn't), how did "Clara" come to give that detail? How can she know something that's "in the files," which later turns out not to be so? She can't "know" it from Cooper, because it didn't happen. So how did she have that information?

I could see Gunther knowing it from a cursory reading of whatever preliminary files he may have had access to. I can't understand how Joe or Jane Public hoaxer could know it. 

Or was it potentially just more flight of fancy and it happens to line up with something that's actually in the files, even if it's there falsely? Like Nostradamus supposedly predicting what we had for breakfast?

Since I do not believe there's any conspiracy involved, Clara "knowing" about this keeps the door open in my mind that she is potentially (at least partially) a creation of Gunther's. 

One last small question: had Gunther ever written about that first "Cooper" contact, and the Clara ad, before the contact from Clara 10 years later?

Thank you once again for the context.
 

[olemisscub 466]

Flyjack, I came across this recently in an article about the Hahneman hijacking. Know anything about this? Would be interesting to know if that photo could be FOIA'd (assuming it came out correctly). 

[FLYJACK 654]

I have never heard of Gunther writing about the first contact before,,, he does claim that he and the others contacted believed it was a hoax... suggesting his opinion was changed due to Clara's contact.

But, as I tried to say. Elsinore was not mentioned in the Gunther book, a jump close to LA was. LA may have been made up to replace another location, a made up coincidence or something Gunther read. I know others use it to support the legitimacy of Gunther's book, I just don't think it is significant. Since we know some of the book is fabricated and from Gunther's research I try to evaluate it from the 10,000 foot level and not get too focussed on the small details. That will drive you crazy.

One other note.. if "Cooper" contacted others, were they also asked to respond in the Village Voice somehow.. in a letter "he" acknowledged that "Dear group" .. "I hope to be in contact with all of you again", so we saw Max's response but there would have been responses from the others somewhere.. I have tried to find old issues of Village Voice online, there are a bunch on internetarchive but not in March '72..

This might be a way to confirm the Cooper part... if we can find other responses.

[FLYJACK 654]

2 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Flyjack, I came across this recently in an article about the Hahneman hijacking. Know anything about this? Would be interesting to know if that photo could be FOIA'd (assuming it came out correctly). 

Yes, I can confirm that the photo did not turn out.. 

[olemisscub 466]

Just now, FLYJACK said:

Yes, I can confirm that the photo did not turn out.. 

That's too bad. The FBI obviously would have wanted it to come out and would have used it in his trial if so. Did he even have a trial or did he just take a plea?

[georger 197]

1 hour ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Gunther was in a no win situation. If he didn’t report it, then he could be criticized. Lying to the FBI is a crime. Big time. He could have lost a lot. He also mentions Ed Kuhn and Mark Penzer in his book. Ed died before the book was published, but Mark was alive. So now you have Gunther lying about someone else. Very unlikely. 
 

Like anything in this case, nothing is for certain. However, I’d bank on it that Gunther was contacted by someone. What happened next and in what order is up to interpretation. 
 

As for Gunther making things up. He had to add filler. The whole section on the disappearance is taken from his True article. How do you write a 200 page book off just a few phone calls and letters? You don’t. You have to take liberties. Gunther was not writing for the New York Times or going on NBC at the time. He was into entertainment. Now if it was today, he would not need to verify much, he could just print it and let people think what they want. Journalism is a dying breed. 

Was Gunther ever at the Writer's Workshop in Iowa City?  Why didnt Cooper contact one of them?  ie, writers with stature. Do Gunther, Clara, and Jo Weber intersect? Didn't Jo say she talked to Clara?  Who at the Writer's Workshop did Clara have contact with . . . ? 

Why didn't Cooper contact The New Yorker ?  Was DB Cooper a "savant" - with a message ? 

Edited October 10, 2022 by georger

[FLYJACK 654]

12 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

That's too bad. The FBI obviously would have wanted it to come out and would have used it in his trial if so. Did he even have a trial or did he just take a plea?

plea deal..

[georger 197]

Max Gunther, savant:  The person DB Cooper allegedly contact .  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Gunther

Max Gunther (1927–1998) was an Anglo-American journalist and writer. He was the author of 26 books, including his investment best-seller, The Zurich Axioms.

Born in England, Gunther moved to the United States at age of 11 after his father, Franz Heinrich (Frank Henry) became the manager of the New York branch of a leading Swiss bank, Schweizerischer Bankverein (Swiss Bank Corporation or SBC). In 1998, the bank was merged with Union Bank of Switzerland to form UBS, the second largest wealth management organisation in the world and the second largest bank in Europe. Gunther's book, The Zurich Axioms is largely based on his father's trading advice.^[1]

Gunther graduated from Princeton University in 1949 and served in the United States Army from 1950 to 1951.

He worked at Business Week magazine from 1951 to 1955 and during the following two years he was the contributing editor for Time Magazine. He also contributed to Playboy, True, Reader's Digest, TV Guide, McCall's, and Saturday Evening Post.

He lived most of his adult live in Ridgefield, Connecticut.

Selected bibliography

• The Weekenders (1964)
• The Split-Level Trap (1964)
• Wall Street and Witchcraft (1971)
• The Very, Very Rich and How They Got That Way (1973)
• Instant Millionaires: The Secrets of Overnight Success (1973)
• Writing and Selling a Nonfiction Book (1973)
• Virility 8: A Celebration of the American Male (1975)
• "The Luck Factor" Harriman House ISBN 9781906659950 (1977)
• The Zurich Axioms ISBN 9781906659943 (1985 1st print)
• How to Get Lucky: 13 Techniques for Discovering and Taking Advantage of Life's Good Breaks (1986)
• D.B. Cooper: What Really Happened McGraw-Hill ISBN 9780809248544 (1985 1st print)
• Doom Wind (1987)
• Confessions of a P.R. Man (1989)

References

1.  

1. “The Zurich Axioms” by Max Gunther, Reviewed by Victor Niederhoffer . Daily Speculations, October 24, 2006

• SANDERS, Jack S. Max Gunther: Prolific Writer (In: http://jackfsanders.tripod.com/G-L.htm)
• About Max Gunther

Edited October 10, 2022 by georger

[CooperNWO305 146]

14 minutes ago, georger said:

Was Gunther ever at the Writer's Workshop in Iowa City?  Why didnt Cooper contact one of them?  ie, writers with stature. Do Gunther, Clara, and Jo Weber intersect? Didn't Jo say she talked to Clara?  Who at the Writer's Workshop did Clara have contact with . . . ? 

Why didn't Cooper contact The New Yorker ?  Was DB Cooper a "savant" - with a message ? 

It actually makes sense if you see Cooper as a blue collar working man. He probably didn’t read the New Yorker. Gunther wrote for True Magazine, Playboy, and other magazines. Gunther’s LeClair and Clara seemed to be middle class, not your elites who read the New Yorker or fancy books. Here is the wiki entry on True. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_(magazine)
 

I see Cooper as a worker. Gets his hands dirty. Smarter than the average worker, but maybe without the resources or money as a kid who grew up in the suburbs. Not a college grad. Enlisted military. 

[georger 197]

2 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

It actually makes sense if you see Cooper as a blue collar working man. He probably didn’t read the New Yorker. Gunther wrote for True Magazine, Playboy, and other magazines. Gunther’s LeClair and Clara seemed to be middle class, not your elites who read the New Yorker or fancy books. Here is the wiki entry on True. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_(magazine)
 

I see Cooper as a worker. Gets his hands dirty. Smarter than the average worker, but maybe without the resources or money as a kid who grew up in the suburbs. Not a college grad. Enlisted military. 

By contacting Gunther, of all people, Cooper is now in touch with some very classy people. You do not live in Iowa City, Iowa and not know who these people are . . . Cooper now has 200k$ and is moving up in the world ? The FBI may be beneath him now! 

[FLYJACK 654]

Just now, georger said:

By contacting Gunther, of all people, Cooper is now in touch with some very classy people. You do not live in Iowa City, Iowa and not know who these people are . . . Cooper now has 200k$ and is moving up in the world ? The FBI may be beneath him now! 

It may be that Cooper lost the money in the jump and contacted several writer/publishers to sell his story anonymously...  or a hoax..

 

[olemisscub 466]

Cooper strikes me as the type who wouldn't want to talk about it with anyone. 

Edited October 10, 2022 by olemisscub

[FLYJACK 654]

Just now, olemisscub said:

Cooper just doesn't strike me as the type who would want to talk about it with anyone. 

If he did it for money and lost it,, selling his story would get him money..

It only makes sense if he lost the money..

[georger 197]

14 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Cooper just doesn't strike me as the type who would want to talk about it with anyone. 

Likewise .... but writers would be interested in him if only to reinvent him!  There is no subject on Earth that escapes the grasp of Writers Workshop people.  People from all over the planet gather to develop and exchange .... ideas and story lines. Does DB Cooper now have his eyes set on a Nobel Prize in Literature ?  Small wonder the writer Geof Gray will stand in line waiting his turn . . .  

re Max Gunther:

• Writing and Selling a Nonfiction Book (1973)
• Virility 8: A Celebration of the American Male (1975)
• D.B. Cooper: What Really Happened McGraw-Hill ISBN 9780809248544 (1985 1st print)

Edited October 10, 2022 by georger

[CooperNWO305 146]

This is Cooper’s way of talking to someone about it. He gets publicity and attention with minimal risk. 

[olemisscub 466]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Lyle Cameron made the initial report of somebody possibly being Cooper at Elsinore but after the FBI got serious he walked it back dramatically.. (it is in the FBI files).  I think he embellished his encounter with that guy at Elsinore then got scared when the FBI took it seriously. It would have been great publicity. 

I've seen you say this a few times now and I'm interested (not at all because of Gunther) to know where that is in the files. I've clicked through every document that pops up for "Elsinore" and I've not seen anything where Cameron changes his story or walks it back. Could you point me in the right direction?

[FLYJACK 654]

On 9/15/2022 at 8:14 AM, FLYJACK said:

Elsinore tipster walks back claim... says maybe a coincidence inspired by ad in Look Magazine, August 1971. Though claims resembles sketch,, but that was the bad sketch "A"...

IMO, Elsinore is a red herring..

Here is the Elsinore walk back.... "may be coincidental" and resembled Sketch "A"...

IMO, Elsinore is a red herring..

Edited October 10, 2022 by FLYJACK

[georger 197]

28 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

This is Cooper’s way of talking to someone about it. He gets publicity and attention with minimal risk. 

But, the cultural distance between Cooper's world and Gunther's world we assume, would be huge, if not unreachable. Who is seeking whom? If the premise is correct then Cooper had a rather specific cultural awareness, somehow. That's not the world your average hijacker in 1971 lives in. Cooper seeks out Gunther of all people! Why didn't he just contact the President of the United States? Why screw around with some writer savant to get his story out - go straight to the top !!   

Odds are it doesn;t add up .... using Insect Math. The odds are Gunther selected Cooper, not the reverse. Moreover, I will even bet some of Gunther's associates knew this ... which in the end tells us nothing about Cooper.

Edited October 10, 2022 by georger

[CooperNWO305 146]

Just now, georger said:

But, the cultural distance between Cooper's world and Gunther's world we assume, would be huge, if not unreachable. Who is seeking whom? If the premise is correct then Cooper had a rather large pr specific cultural awareness, somehow. That's not the world your average hijacker in 1971 lives in. Cooper seeks out Gunther of all people! Why didn't he just contact the President of the United States? Why screw around with some writer savant to get his story out - go straight to the top inside a very small cultural microcosm !!  

Odds are it doesn;t add up .... using Insect Math.

   

Gunther was a rich playboy. LeClair was not looking to be his buddy. He was relating to what he wrote. Gunther was a man’s man. He wrote manly articles. Targeted men. That’s why LeClair was attracted to him. Have you read the book? It’s all in there. No way Gunther would have socialized with Cooper or LeClair. Have you read his books or articles? These aren’t targeted at weak men. They are targeted at hunters and fishers and adventurers. 
 

It is quite the coincidence that Gunther’s LeClair was born in Ontario, Canada. Moves to Newark, NJ. Joins the Army. Had a wife who’s birthday is March 2nd. Dan Clair did all of this. Dan Clair/Dan LeClair. To me it is so in your face that it is over the top. Like Dan Clair made the calls knowing he would not get caught because he’s not Cooper, or someone who knew him made the calls knowing Dan could deny being Cooper. No Internet back then. Very hard to cross reference. Why did the FBI chase down every ridiculous lead and not this one? I think it’s because they didn’t like Gunther.