DB Cooper

[CooperNWO305 146]

Another scenario is that LeClair went to the library and found the 1962 article. The Readers Guide to Periodical Literature would have had the details of the title. He could have read the article in 1962 and got the details of the title in 1972. The Readers Guide is how I researched in high school and college and is actually how I found a list of Gunther’s old articles. In 1971 every library would have had it. 

[FLYJACK 654]

Don't see Gunther replicating the letter with typos and spelling errors, he would also have to replicate the group letter with the matching typewriter..  too risky.

If it was Cooper he was probably an avid reader of True and Playboy and the article resonated with Cooper's real life.. he could have had a stack of mags in his basement. Since he mailed the letter to Gunther's old address he may have even written to Gunther previously.

If it was a hoaxer he just researched Gunther and padded the letter with flattery..

[Math of Insects 95]

While at Princeton, Gunther worked on The Tiger and the Daily Princetonian, and wrote scripts for WPRU. I wonder if they keep those originals somewhere...

He retired from writing after Dottie died and focused on, among other things, poker and the stock market. He was not risk-averse, it seems.

He also played "jazz mandolin." For that alone, he should be considered highly suspicious.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Math of Insects

[Coopericane 44]

Great episode on the podcast olemisscub! Out of curiosity, do you think that you could share that picture of McCoy laid to rest here? (Or maybe just privately message it if that's all you're comfortable with).

[CooperNWO305 146]

Sample page of The Readers Guide to Periodical Literature. So for instance if you wanted to see articles by Molly Ball in Time Magazine, this would show you. Whether True Magazine would be indexed in this in the 1960s is questionable. 

[olemisscub 464]

6 hours ago, Coopericane said:

Great episode on the podcast olemisscub! Out of curiosity, do you think that you could share that picture of McCoy laid to rest here? (Or maybe just privately message it if that's all you're comfortable with).

 

[Math of Insects 95]

14 hours ago, Andrade1812 said:

The focus on the Cooper letter in Gunther's book goes back to earlier chunks of this thread, but let me suggest another theory that explains the "perfect recall" of the title of Gunther's original True Magazine article.

Gunther could have lost the original letter and tried to recreate it based on his own recollection. 

I doubt this is the case because it violates the Gunther's own ethics, but it's possible the publisher forced this on him.

While I find that very unlikely, the fact that it would even need to be considered is telling. The fact is that something is odd there. The goal would be to find the explanation that makes the fact be the least odd. 

The one that makes the most sense in this case, with the least contrivances, is the least popular one. 

I'll search for the previous discussion. Thanks for the tip. 

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

 

How do you know it is the Book of Mormon,, that would interesting but when I google images of the book I can't find a version that matches the one in the pic..

Is it part of an article?

[Math of Insects 95]

29 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

How do you know it is the Book of Mormon,, that would interesting but when I google images of the book I can't find a version that matches the one in the pic..

Is it part of an article?

If I really try, I can perhaps make it seem like it says "The Pearl... [of Great Price]." But... 

[Math of Insects 95]

I did a targeted search, but the old posts seem largely to be people arguing. I prefer to stay in the "data" realm if I can. Are there particular posts from the past that deconstruct the content of the Cooper letter to Gunther?

[georger 194]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_(magazine)

True, also known as True, The Man's Magazine, was published by Fawcett Publications from 1937 until 1974. Known as True, A Man's Magazine in the 1930s, it was labeled True, #1 Man's Magazine in the 1960s. Petersen Publishing took over with the January 1975, issue. It was sold to Magazine Associates in August 1975, and ceased publication shortly afterward.

High adventure, sports profiles and dramatic conflicts were highlighted in articles such as "Living and Working at Nine Fathoms" by Ed Batutis, "Search for the Perfect Beer" by Bob McCabe and the uncredited "How to Start Your Own Hunting-Fishing Lodge." In addition to pictorials ("Iceland, Unexpected Eden" by Lawrence Fried) and humor pieces ("The Most Unforgettable Sonofabitch I Ever Knew" by Robert Ruark), there were columns, miscellaneous features and regular concluding pages: "This Funny Life," "Man to Man Answers," "Strange But True" and "True Goes Shopping."

In January 1950, True went back to press after a sold-out issue in which Donald E. Keyhoe suggested that extraterrestrials could be piloting flying saucers. The material was reworked by Keyhoe into a best-selling paperback book, The Flying Saucers Are Real (Fawcett Gold Medal, 1950). True did follow-up UFO reports in 1967^[3] and 1969. Frank Bowers edited The True Report on Flying Saucers (1967).

The magazine was the source for a number of other books, including True, A Treasury of True: The Best from 20 Years of the Man's Magazine (Barnes, 1956), edited by Charles N. Barnard and illustrated by Carl Pfeufer, and Bar Guide (Fawcett, 1950) by Ted Shane and Virgil Partch. Cartoon collections included Cartoon Laffs from True, the Man's Magazine (Crest Books, 1958), True Album of Cartoons (Fawcett, 1960), Cartoon Treasury (Fawcett, 1968) and New Cartoon Laughs: A Prize Collection from True Magazine (Fawcett, 1970).

. . .

[georger 194]

Was Gunther a True Man ?  Member of Masons, White Shrine, Knights of Columbus, Knights Templar, Oak Island Association,   . . . ?  

Did DB Cooper contact Gunther because he saw himself as a man of like spirit ... ?

Did DB Cooper die on Mt Everest ? Killed by a Knights Templar Yeti who tracked Cooper from Washington to Tibet ?

Edited October 13, 2022 by georger

[CooperNWO305 146]

53 minutes ago, georger said:

Was Gunther a True Man ?  Member of Masons, White Shrine, Knights of Columbus, Knights Templar, Oak Island Association,   . . . ?  

Did DB Cooper contact Gunther because he saw himself as a man of like spirit ... ?

Did DB Cooper die on Mt Everest ? Killed by a Knights Templar Yeti who tracked Cooper from Washington to Tibet ?

My assessment of Gunther is that he was a well off "rich kid" so to say.  Father was in banking, Gunther was born in Switzerland, lived well, went to Princeton, was well off as an adult, lived in a wealthy town in Connecticut in his adult years.  My impression is that his True Magazine articles and books were more centered on men being men, meaning they were separate from women and different.  One might use the terms male chauvinist or womanizer.  To your point, he could have been a member of some of those clubs.  I read his book The Weekenders, which as I remember focused on more higher society people than blue collar.  So essentially you have a man's man from a club/money perspective, but maybe not from the hunting, fishing, shooting, boozing at bars type.  I see True as appealing to more middle class to lower middle class men versus Gunther's upper middle class to middle class.

Gunther's LeClair probably watched football and worked on his car, where Gunther and friends may have gone to polo matches and had maids.

Long and short, Gunther would not have related to Dan LeClair in real life, but Dan LeClair may have related to Gunther through the articles, even though Gunther was not necessarily that type of guy.  My impression is that Cooper was blue collar, and maybe not too happy with his current lot in life.

If it is all made up, then someone had quite an imagination.  I've read different accounts of undercover agent training, both law enforcement and government.  One theme is to have the agent/faker use as much info as possible that is real, so that it is easier to remember.  So for instance, if I was to make up a fake history for fun, I might use the life of a cousin of mine in Ohio who is around the same age, using his friend's names, his town or a town close, his cars, his girlfriends, etc.  His house.  Gunther's book seems to have this.  He writes about a real life.

In Gunther's book there are three made up names that I can see.  Dan LeClair, Clara, and then Paul Cotton (aka Dan LeClair).  Clara and LeClair are almost homophones, sounding alike.  Tracking down Paul Cotton might shed some light on the issue.

 

Edited October 13, 2022 by CooperNWO305

[FLYJACK 654]

15 hours ago, The Cooper Vortex said:

New episode out right now!

DB Cooper is Misunderstood with Ryan Burns, aka olemisscub for this crowd.

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-is-misunderstood-ryan-burns/

Enjoy!

Great episode and good job both of you,, wow 3 hours.. and you didn't cover everything.

Darren, you should do another panel show with 2 or 3 guests.. those are good too...

I agree with almost all of it.. it may have been recorded before some of the discussions here..

I also believe the bomb may have been real, we don't know either way but Cooper saying he won't be taken alive,, the electric fuse radio comment and the vulnerability of somebody not accepting the bomb as real.. he could have been shot dead. Plus, there is red dynamite. There is no evidence indicating it was fake. So, it is possible it was real.

The evidence strongly suggests Cooper was right handed, not left. Try carrying a flat case to the "restroom" unlatch the door and turn on the tap.. you will carry it in your non dominant hand. Plus, cig stains on right hand and Mitchell.

My theory is that the dummy chute was tossed because it didn't have a seal or card and would have appeared to be tampered with. The other three had seals and cards. Cooper wasn't stupid.

TBAR, no way somebody buries money next to the river. There are so many better places to bury money if needed.  I have some good TBAR theories but it will never be solved.. One of my theories is actionable.

Rataczak said "American currency" and Tina said Cooper told her "U. S. currency", so we have two instances.. For both to say this supports Cooper actually using a unique descriptor for the currency. Forget about the uncirculated part that is not the issue.

Tina said she didn't see his face straight on but she had input on the sketches and screening suspect images.. She is being evasive/dishonest for some reason.

Lips were not "fat", they were thin with a protruding lower. 

I also believe Cooper had dyed his hair.. or had some black greasy/slick product in it.

Hahneman, you make the same classic error everyone else has, but that is OK, you are in good company and no I can't elaborate now. Gag order.

Witness's ability to ID Cooper is unreliable. Check.

Himmelsbach and the FBI developed a strong bias within a year to push the Cooper died in the jump narrative.. they needed to explain why they failed and needed a public narrative against hijacking.

Tom Kaye told me 14 partial DNA profiles on the tie,, so yes, tie DNA is a crapshoot.. Cooper's DNA may be contaminated or not even be one of them. Tom Kaye's DNA was on the vacuum filter that was tested not the tie. Fingerprints are also a problem, FBI files say "no good" or "no value" they are not confident any are Cooper.

BTW, Club moss (lycopodium clavatum) powder is yellowish tan and was used for latex gloves but was eliminated for the medical industry due to reactions,, In videos Larry Carr is handling the tie with yellowish tan gloves, he or earlier FBI agents agents may have contaminated the tie with those gloves..

I believe the tie belonged to Cooper since about 1964/5.. but I do have an alternate source,, both strongly match the tie particle environment.

Heisson store.. one thing that gets overlooked is that the Heisson store is not actually named in the FBI files, we assume that was the store based on the area identified and it probably is but it isn't 100%.. 

Wikipedia,, I hate Wikipedia, it is riddled with misinformation, political bias and ideological cults, some subjects more than others and trying to correct misinformation sounds worse than waterboarding torture.

 

Christiansen,, a joke all around. The Seinfeld suspect,, a suspect case about nothing.

Reca,, an even bigger joke, they got everything wrong. Cooper spoke intelligently, Reca not so much.. complete waste of time.

McCoy,, eliminated, does not fit the evidence. Calame and Rhodes lied about the tie clip.

Peterson,, not even close, even Ulis has dropped him as a suspect. RIP Petey.

Braden,, overqualified badass, easily recognizable, unique look, Cooper was not a badass.

Barb Dayton,, stop, no way, just no... 

LD Cooper, no, no evidence just a childhood story, Sorry Marla.. a smile and a pretty face only gets you so far in the Vortex.

Weber,, no way, not even close. How do we even know he claimed he was Cooper, Jo lied about everything.. IMO, Dwayne was the victim in that relationship.

Rackstraw,, nope, everything is out about him now. Lots of speculation, no evidence.

Gossett was always a good suspect and there are others who we just don't have enough evidence to evaluate....

 

But, we will never get this solved beyond circumstantial without new forensics and that may be impossible now.. 

 

 

 

[olemisscub 464]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

How do you know it is the Book of Mormon,, that would interesting but when I google images of the book I can't find a version that matches the one in the pic..

Is it part of an article?

It was an assumption, perhaps a poor one, on my part. I could easily see a "The" at the top. Seems like something devout people would do: be buried with their holy book. But now that I zoom in on it the second word definitely isn't "book"

[FLYJACK 654]

13 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

It was an assumption, perhaps a poor one, on my part. I could easily see a "The" at the top. Seems like something devout people would do: be buried with their holy book. But now that I zoom in on it the second word definitely isn't "book"

I am not saying it isn't.. I just couldn't match the cover text to any version of the cover I could find online..

[olemisscub 464]

7 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

 

Hahneman, you make the same classic error everyone else has, but that is OK, you are in good company and no I can't elaborate now. Gag order.

 

 

Just going off what I've read from eyewitnesses that he was saying some threatening things to people, pointing his gun at them, that he was "edgy and nervous" and pacing up and down the aisles. On the other hand, I'll sometimes see articles about the hijacking where the witnesses are saying that they weren't frightened of him. I'm not an expert on that hijacking, obviously. 

[FLYJACK 654]

9 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Just going off what I've read from eyewitnesses that he was saying some threatening things to people, pointing his gun at them, that he was "edgy and nervous" and pacing up and down the aisles. On the other hand, I'll sometimes see articles about the hijacking where the witnesses are saying that they weren't frightened of him. I'm not an expert on that hijacking, obviously. 

I know.. everybody has that same reaction.

[olemisscub 464]

35 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

Lips were not "fat", they were thin with a protruding lower. 

 

I'm pretty sure I said his upper lip was thin. The term "fat lower lip" (that I'm guessing I used) is just my way of saying his lower lip looked heavier than the top lip because of its protrusion, according to the stews. The sketches seem to bear that out. 

 

[georger 194]

1 hour ago, CooperNWO305 said:

My assessment of Gunther is that he was a well off "rich kid" so to say.  Father was in banking, Gunther was born in Switzerland, lived well, went to Princeton, was well off as an adult, lived in a wealthy town in Connecticut in his adult years.  My impression is that his True Magazine articles and books were more centered on men being men, meaning they were separate from women and different.  One might use the terms male chauvinist or womanizer.  To your point, he could have been a member of some of those clubs.  I read his book The Weekenders, which as I remember focused on more higher society people than blue collar.  So essentially you have a man's man from a club/money perspective, but maybe not from the hunting, fishing, shooting, boozing at bars type.  I see True as appealing to more middle class to lower middle class men versus Gunther's upper middle class to middle class.

Gunther's LeClair probably watched football and worked on his car, where Gunther and friends may have gone to polo matches and had maids.

Long and short, Gunther would not have related to Dan LeClair in real life, but Dan LeClair may have related to Gunther through the articles, even though Gunther was not necessarily that type of guy.  My impression is that Cooper was blue collar, and maybe not too happy with his current lot in life.

If it is all made up, then someone had quite an imagination.  I've read different accounts of undercover agent training, both law enforcement and government.  One theme is to have the agent/faker use as much info as possible that is real, so that it is easier to remember.  So for instance, if I was to make up a fake history for fun, I might use the life of a cousin of mine in Ohio who is around the same age, using his friend's names, his town or a town close, his cars, his girlfriends, etc.  His house.  Gunther's book seems to have this.  He writes about a real life.

In Gunther's book there are three made up names that I can see.  Dan LeClair, Clara, and then Paul Cotton (aka Dan LeClair).  Clara and LeClair are almost homophones, sounding alike.  Tracking down Paul Cotton might shed some light on the issue.

 

Almost inevitable that True (Adventure) Magazine is going to take on the Cooper hijacking, in some form. All they needed was a writer...

Opportunism pure and simple.

Edited October 13, 2022 by georger

[Math of Insects 95]

11 minutes ago, georger said:

Almost inevitable that True (Adventure) Magazine is going to take on the Cooper hijacking, in some form. All they needed was a writer...

One element that stands out to me in Gunther’s work is that he’s clearly an opportunist. He owns it and even wrote his next book—after the Cooper piece—about luck/opportunism.

I read (briefly) that last one and was struck by his non-mention of the fact that of all the people in the world, the most famous fugitive of our age had contacted him.

Perhaps a tacit acknowledgment that none of it was Cooper (and/or his true love Clara)? I mean, that would seem to be a lightning bolt for most journalists, particularly in the post-Watergate climate of veneration of the craft.

 

 

[FLYJACK 654]

13 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I'm pretty sure I said his upper lip was thin. The term "fat lower lip" (that I'm guessing I used) is just my way of saying his lower lip looked heavier than the top lip because of its protrusion, according to the stews. The sketches seem to bear that out. 

 

yes, thicker in the middle, the first Cooper description said thin lips,,,

 

[olemisscub 464]

Our friend Gregory again... :-)

[georger 194]

20 minutes ago, Math of Insects said:

One element that stands out to me in Gunther’s work is that he’s clearly an opportunist. He owns it and even wrote his next book—after the Cooper piece—about luck/opportunism.

I read (briefly) that last one and was struck by his non-mention of the fact that of all the people in the world, the most famous fugitive of our age had contacted him.

Perhaps a tacit acknowledgment that none of it was Cooper (and/or his true love Clara)? I mean, that would seem to be a lightning bolt for most journalists, particularly in the post-Watergate climate of veneration of the craft.

 

 

At best Gunther is trying to be a myth maker. Maybe he was just bored with his real life?  He is more than intelligent enough to know what real investigation is like and what that involves, but he does nothing to help! Maybe he should have written about Columbus or Einstein instead ?  He seems to be wallowing in personal indecision. Do people find his personal problems interesting ... the problems of a True Man ? It's laughable. 

Meanwhile the real Cooper is somewhere doing something or he is dead. So back to the original problem after yet one more - diversion.   

 

[FLYJACK 654]

39 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

Our friend Gregory again... :-)

Flo noted "thin lips" in Gray interview.

I just took exception with the "fat lip" description.

Edited October 13, 2022 by FLYJACK