DB Cooper

[Coopericane 44]

12 minutes ago, georger said:

Why Max? Was there something that hung on Max that attracted Cooper's attention. Why Max vs Chamon Smith of Milwaukee?  Maybe Max was just some guy trying to get published first ? 

When did Gunther die? Did he have any other claim to fame?  I have a hard time taking any of this seriously . . .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Gunther

Here's some basic background information on him. It was apparently work on an article for True Magazine called Do-It-Yourself Divorce that attracted Cooper/the hoaxer to him. I've never read any of his other works, but he seems to have been a fairly serious journalist.

That being said, it couldn't hurt to learn more about him.

[georger 197]

5 hours ago, Coopericane said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Gunther

Here's some basic background information on him. It was apparently work on an article for True Magazine called Do-It-Yourself Divorce that attracted Cooper/the hoaxer to him. I've never read any of his other works, but he seems to have been a fairly serious journalist.

That being said, it couldn't hurt to learn more about him.

Thanks - will do.

[FLYJACK 654]

8 hours ago, Slim King said:

Of all the possible suspects, who do you think was most qualified to make the jump, survive, escape, and avoid capture?

Elvis..

[FLYJACK 654]

10 hours ago, georger said:

Why Max? Was there something that hung on Max that attracted Cooper's attention. Why Max vs Chamon Smith of Milwaukee?  Maybe Max was just some guy trying to get published first ? 

When did Gunther die? Did he have any other claim to fame?  I have a hard time taking any of this seriously . . .

Somebody claiming to be Cooper contacted Max and other writer/publishers in 1972..  the person wanted money for telling his story.. then within months he suddenly dropped off and disappeared. Then, 10 years later a "Clara" contacted Max and told her story by phone over several months.. Her agenda seemed to be to claim Cooper had died and that he was a good guy, she didn't ask for money. So, Max wrote it all up admitting that it may be a hoax, though he feels there is something legit about it. He leaves it for the reader to decide.

IMO, these people contacted Max, it can't be easily dismissed as a hoax. If legit, Clara's story may still be a partial fabrication to hide their identities.. There is information in there that is not correct but much of it is.. both Clara and Max blended fact and fiction.. it is hard to sort out.

But obtaining the notes Max sent to the FBI may help determine if it was a hoax or not.

If it wasn't a hoax, I may have identified a person who could have been Clara.

Also, if it was really Cooper and he was asking for money then he would have lost the ransom in the jump...

 

Read the book,, if it is a hoax by the people who contacted Max then there is nothing to be gained.. but if it was Cooper then it is avenue of investigation..

What makes it strange, if it was a hoax is Clara's motive, she never asked for money, she wanted to establish a public narrative via Max,, Cooper was dead and he was actually a good guy.. My take is, he really was alive so don't look for him...

Edited October 8, 2022 by FLYJACK

[CooperNWO305 146]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Somebody claiming to be Cooper contacted Max and other writer/publishers in 1972..  the person wanted money for telling his story.. then within months he suddenly dropped off and disappeared. Then, 10 years later a "Clara" contacted Max and told her story by phone over several months.. Her agenda seemed to be to claim Cooper had died and that he was a good guy, she didn't ask for money. So, Max wrote it all up admitting that it may be a hoax, though he feels there is something legit about it. He leaves it for the reader to decide.

IMO, these people contacted Max, it can't be easily dismissed as a hoax. If legit, Clara's story may still be a partial fabrication to hide their identities.. There is information in there that is not correct but much of it is.. both Clara and Max blended fact and fiction.. it is hard to sort out.

But obtaining the notes Max sent to the FBI may help determine if it was a hoax or not.

If it wasn't a hoax, I may have identified a person who could have been Clara.

Also, if it was really Cooper and he was asking for money then he would have lost the ransom in the jump...

 

Read the book,, if it is a hoax by the people who contacted Max then there is nothing to be gained.. but if it was Cooper then it is avenue of investigation..

What makes it strange, if it was a hoax is Clara's motive, she never asked for money, she wanted to establish a public narrative via Max,, Cooper was dead and he was actually a good guy.. My take is, he really was alive so don't look for him...

Gunther’s family may have the notes too, but they have not seemed interested in talking. It’s been a while since his three kids have been contacted, so that might be an angle again. 

[FLYJACK 654]

6 minutes ago, Slim King said:

This explains why I can't take you seriously. You are the resident troll.

Can't get anything past you...

[CooperNWO305 146]

5 hours ago, georger said:

Thanks - will do.

The book is prob $25 right now. There is a PDF floating around for free if you want, someone can prob send it.

Some more info on the book. 
https://dbcooperhijack.com/2018/12/23/db-cooper-and-max-gunther/

 

[olemisscub 466]

13 hours ago, Slim King said:

Of all the possible suspects, who do you think was most qualified to make the jump, survive, escape, and avoid capture?

Braden and it isn’t even REMOTELY close. To suggest anyone else would be intellectually dishonest. He probably wasn’t Cooper but of the named suspects, he IS the only real answer to your question. 
 

As far as being qualified to make the jump, Braden made over 900 free fall jumps with the military, was one of the test jumpers when the Army was inventing HALO jumping, and was chosen by the Army to represent them at International Skydiving competitions, many of which he won.  

Braden was also chosen by Project DELTA to teach South Vietnamese Special Forces how to jump into wooded and jungle terrain in 1965. 
 

Evading capture and escaping? The guy did nighttime jumps with 6 man teams (that he led) into Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, and North Vietnam from early 65 until late 66. He would be evading capture and certain death/torture for weeks at a time. Braden was the first guy to ever successfully plant a wire tap in North Vietnam. 
 

Again, he likely wasn’t Cooper, but he is the answer to your question. Even if Peca was the only quadruple agent of CIA-Mi6-KGB and Mossad in all of history, Braden still has him beat at this sort of thing. 

[olemisscub 466]

2 minutes ago, Slim King said:

I like your thinking. Do you think he could have helped Cooper plan the hijack?

Why would he have done that? Braden was a criminal and would have just done it himself or would have been a copycat. He committed multiple high dollar felony scams and heists throughout the 70’s with nets in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. So I doubt Braden would have assisted anyone. He’d have just done the job himself.

[olemisscub 466]

23 minutes ago, Slim King said:

I like your thinking. Do you think he could have helped Cooper plan the hijack? Is Paratrooper of Fortune the best book on him? 

It’s the ONLY book on Braden

[olemisscub 466]

31 minutes ago, Slim King said:

Funny .. There are three books (One is also on audio..the best recordings ) and a documentary on Peca/Reca .... The confession recordings are very interesting. A fourth book is on the way I've heard.

Personal opinion here but an actual spook would be hard to write a book on. Braden is verified to have worked with the CIA and falls off the map after 1968. Beeson had a tough time collecting enough info on him  
 

This comes from a very, very expensive background check service. Note the difference…the confirmed CIA dude vs the quadruple agent super secret international man of mystery.

 

 

[olemisscub 466]

If you still think Reca actually worked for the CIA, then I’m not sure what to tell you. 
 

His KGB “ID” literally has “Walter Reca” as his name on it. You really think double agents or whatever he was claiming to be would use their actual name?

[FLYJACK 654]

Dr Edwards amended his blog post to incorporate what we discussed about the stews and the sketch.. that sketch B was based on KK5-1..

but he still missed two things.. 

No way Tina saw his profile only, how could she prefer sketch A if she only saw his profile.. she is not being honest about seeing only the profile. The FBI relied on her to vet suspect front face images..  that "profile only" statement from Tina discredits her and creates profound problems for the FBI and their investigation.

And, sketch B was a process that began at KK5-1 with input and changes by the witnesses over months,, Tina claiming she preferred sketch A vs B was not the final sketch B but earlier in the process, you can tell by the date. The final sketch B was generally agreed on by all the witnesses.

So, Dr Edwards conclusion that sketch B is no good is not valid. His premise is incorrect. Tina's rejection of sketch B was not the final one but an early iteration.

https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/22993348-d-b-cooper-and-flight-305-that-s-not-him

Edited October 9, 2022 by FLYJACK

[olemisscub 466]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

 

And, sketch B was a process that began at KK5-1 with input and changes by the witnesses over months,, Tina claiming she preferred sketch A vs B was not the final sketch B but earlier in the process, you can tell by the date. The final sketch B was generally agreed on by all the witnesses.

So, Dr Edwards conclusion that sketch B is no good is not valid. His premise is incorrect. Tina's rejection of sketch B was not the final one but an early iteration.

 

Tina is so all over the place that she even liked that first sketch thrown together just from witness statements. I always thought that 302 was about Comp A, but Comp A wasn't made until 11-27. Here we have Tina on the 25th talking about viewing a "facsimile". So she's viewing that first sketch, which was clearly just a template to work off of. 

Here I've got Tina saying:

- 11-25-71 template sketch a "good likeness"

- 11-27-71 Comp A is "almost 100% like him" (we don't have this 302 but reference is made in a 302 from August 72 that she said this on 11-27-71)

- 10-2-72 Comp B "not a good similarity to Unsub"

- 12-1-72 Revised Comp B "more similar to the appearance of Unsub than previous sketches"

- 3-27-73 Final Comp B "bears very close resemblance..."

[ParrotheadVol 70]

On 10/7/2022 at 3:33 PM, Slim King said:

The plane flew on it's normal path V2. The V23 idea was just a Red Herring ... Nothing was ever found. Not the Bomb, not the front pack, not the back pack, not Cooper or his body, not the bag of money (Except for the planted money AGAIN not on the V23 path) not his sunglasses or shoes, no chutes or cut lines.... ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ..... Over 50,000 hunters combed that area for the last 50 years (I was one of them) not to mention the extensive searches and thousands of military and civil personnel  at the time. NOTHING. Stop believing the FBI nonsense. V23 was a Red Herring.

This isn't indicative of a wrong flight path, it's indicative that Cooper survived. None of the things you mentioned were found along any flight path.

[ParrotheadVol 70]

On 10/8/2022 at 12:05 AM, Slim King said:

Of all the possible suspects, who do you think was most qualified to make the jump, survive, escape, and avoid capture?

I agree with Olemisscub that Braden is the best answer to the first 3. I'm not sure he is the best answer when it comes to avoiding capture. There were some that pointed the finger at Braden.

[FLYJACK 654]

47 minutes ago, Slim King said:

My second question is ... Who was in the area? Which of the suspects lived or worked in the area.

Braden was the badass of badasses.. and that is one of the reason's he wasn't Cooper.. Cooper was not a baddass..

 

There is no evidence Cooper lived or worked in the area.. you are playing your amateur mentalist Elvis trick to direct a false narrative..  and why did he prefer jumpsuits in the 70's anyway..

and Ulis engages in the same fallacy... claiming no evidence was found on the flightpath so it must be wrong.. his main argument for the Western Flight Path, classic Ulis false logic.

First, we don't know if nothing was found.. we only know that nothing was reported and confirmed. Something could have been found and never reported. There were chutes found that were dismissed based on Cossey's wrong description. Money could have been found and not turned in.

And, not having anything found or reported does not mean Cooper didn't jump on that path.

 

Edited October 9, 2022 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

15 minutes ago, Slim King said:

As far as I know, no one searched the V2 flight path. Even if Cooper survived he didn't hold on to the bomb or the other chute. Where are they?

Where do you get V2 from... there is no V2.

[georger 197]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Where do you get V2 from... there is no V2.

Poster is just tossing words and ideas around. He doesnt even know what he's saying, or care. Ignore him.

Edited October 9, 2022 by georger

[Math of Insects 96]

On 10/7/2022 at 7:41 PM, CooperNWO305 said:

Not sure what you’re asking. I don’t think Max made it up. He made up parts of the story, but I suspect he did get contacted by someone. 

I was just trying to clarify if the FBI reference to "possible hoax" meant on Clara's part, or his own.

I can think of a perfectly parsimonious explanation for every part of the (intriguing) Gunther story.

It doesn't seem far-fetched at all, in the wake of the publicity of the hijacking, for some crank to contact reporters claiming to be Cooper and maybe shaking them down for money, and in that world it wouldn't seem the least bit unlikely that he figured maybe he could even wrangle some birthday ads for someone, particularly if he was broke. Since Gunther was the "divorce" guy, I can also imagine a world where that whole silly whim was a hail-Mary to win someone back or the like. But I'm just tacking that on for good measure.

It would not be unthinkable at all that that was the entirety of the "real" story--someone contacted Gunther and others, tried the shakedown, and got his ad placed, the end.

Then for 10 years Gunther has that episode sitting on simmer in the back of his mind. Suddenly interest in Cooper starts picking up again. There is starting to be some initial access to FBI files. Gunther realizes he's got the ingredients of a great novel-slash-opportunistic-money grab. He sets his mind to the one area of real intrigue, which was: who was the mysterious Clara he placed the ad for? If you were going to write a sequel to that original story, it would be Clara's story you'd tell.

In that world, everything that happened after the initial contact was a novelistic invention, and written just realistic-sounding enough to ask the kinds of the questions we then spent these years asking. Basically the "Princess Bride" of hijacking stories.

None of that involves any contrivance, and feels perfectly within the realm--farther to the side of "likely" than the longshot-slash-impossibility that it was Cooper himself who wrote multiple people offering to disclose his identity, and his girlfriend or secretary or anyone else somehow knowing who to write all those years later and knowing what to say.

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, Math of Insects said:

I was just trying to clarify if the FBI reference to "possible hoax" meant on Clara's part, or his own.

I can think of a perfectly parsimonious explanation for every part of the (intriguing) Gunther story.

It doesn't seem far-fetched at all, in the wake of the publicity of the hijacking, for some crank to contact reporters claiming to be Cooper and maybe shaking them down for money, and in that world it wouldn't seem the least bit unlikely that he figured maybe he could even wrangle some birthday ads for someone, particularly if he was broke. Since Gunther was the "divorce" guy, I can also imagine a world where that whole silly whim was a hail-Mary to win someone back or the like. But I'm just tacking that on for good measure.

It would not be unthinkable at all that that was the entirety of the "real" story--someone contacted Gunther and others, tried the shakedown, and got his ad placed, the end.

Then for 10 years Gunther has that episode sitting on simmer in the back of his mind. Suddenly interest in Cooper starts picking up again. There is starting to be some initial access to FBI files. Gunther realizes he's got the ingredients of a great novel-slash-opportunistic-money grab. He sets his mind to the one area of real intrigue, which was: who was the mysterious Clara he placed the ad for? If you were going to write a sequel to that original story, it would be Clara's story you'd tell.

In that world, everything that happened after the initial contact was a novelistic invention, and written just realistic-sounding enough to ask the kinds of the questions we then spent these years asking. Basically the "Princess Bride" of hijacking stories.

None of that involves any contrivance, and feels perfectly within the realm--farther to the side of "likely" than the longshot-slash-impossibility that it was Cooper himself who wrote multiple people offering to disclose his identity, and his girlfriend or secretary or anyone else somehow knowing who to write all those years later and knowing what to say.

The problem with inventing the Clara part is that the FBI and FBI agent Himmelsbach were contacted by Gunther and "Clara" and that would be a serious crime risk for Gunther to fake for a story.. if caught he could be charged but his reputation as a writer would be damaged. I don't see it. 

 

[olemisscub 466]

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

And, not having anything found or reported does not mean Cooper didn't jump on that path.

 

Indeed. Cooper had around 30 minutes to himself in the back. Between Tacoma and Woodland on Victor-23 is a whole lot of NOTHING except heavy forest. At any point during that 30 minutes he could have chunked out his briefcase or maybe the dummy chute and it wouldn't at all be surprising that these items were never reported to be found. Even if some hiker or hunter came across it five or ten or fifteen years later there's a high likelihood that it would have just been random junk in the woods to them. 

[olemisscub 466]

5 hours ago, Slim King said:

Excellent work ...The main issue is obviously the NOSE and the MOUTH. The mouth is wider and the nose is much wider. It's pretty easy to see the FBI did not want to release the first one since it was really close .... So here comes the Red Herring.

The first one was literally a template just based upon written descriptions that the sketch artist had with no input from eyewitnesses. It was a template to be used to make adjustments against once the sketch artist sat down in person with eyewitnesses (which is what Roy Rose did on Nov 27 when he met with the Stews in Minneapolis.)

[Math of Insects 96]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

The problem with inventing the Clara part is that the FBI and FBI agent Himmelsbach were contacted by Gunther and "Clara" and that would be a serious crime risk for Gunther to fake for a story.. if caught he could be charged but his reputation as a writer would be damaged. I don't see it. 

 

I agree, that part would seem to slightly move the line from the left end.

In fact, from our perch here in the future, we know that the FBI DID conclude that what Clara said was a hoax, but no arrests were made over it. 10 years into that cold case they were clearly more numb to false claims of being or knowing Cooper. So the "crime" aspect did not turn out to be a real danger.

I do understand that you are saying something slightly different: that Gunther didn't live in the future, and it would have been risky to put himself in potential legal or professional peril.

But actually, none of the options reflect well on him. If he WAS contacted by "Clara," and the FBI was able to conclude she was hoaxing, that would mean they identified Gunther as a credulous and unskilled journalist who was unable to reach that conclusion on his own. Permanent kiss of death for a journalist.

And if he WAS contacted by her, and even she believed her story was true (so was not hoaxing but was hoaxed), where did information that was "true at the time" come from? Was Clara hoaxed by someone with access to FBI files? That seems beyond far-fetched. 

And if he WAS contacted by her, and her story WAS true and she did know Cooper...how can information have been false or wrong? For example, for one thing it would mean the Elsinore suspect has to be the real Cooper, which would mean there would have to have been an Elsinore suspect...and now we're in murky waters to say the least. And how ever would the "real" Cooper know about the Elsinore story? Was HE in the FBI too? Nah. So who "wrote" those parts--Clara? Cooper? Or Gunther?

The fact is, there are parts of the book that seem clearly to be flights of fancy, either by Clara or Gunther. A journalist cannot just decide to inject fiction or obfuscation into a purported work of reportage, and would have had to check out any such claims if they came from Clara. Since there WAS false and incorrect information, the rest of it cannot be taken as reportage. And once again, that's a kiss of death for a reporter. Once there's any fiction, it's no different from it all being fiction. It would actually be MORE professionally risky to bring the FBI a work in which he made up *some* of the elements but not all, since in the latter case, if caught, he could always say it was just a work of fiction, not purported "journalism."

If you head down all the rabbit holes, I think the one that offers the least contrivance, even with some asterisks, is that it is a novel/hoax, very skillfully constructed, with just enough nuggets of real-world data to seem plausible, or at least not entirely dismissible. 

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, Math of Insects said:

I agree, that part would seem to slightly move the line from the left end.

In fact, from our perch here in the future, we know that the FBI DID conclude that what Clara said was a hoax, but no arrests were made over it. 10 years into that cold case they were clearly more numb to false claims of being or knowing Cooper. So the "crime" aspect did not turn out to be a real danger.

I do understand that you are saying something slightly different: that Gunther didn't live in the future, and it would have been risky to put himself in potential legal or professional peril.

But actually, none of the options reflect well on him. If he WAS contacted by "Clara," and the FBI was able to conclude she was hoaxing, that would mean they identified Gunther as a credulous and unskilled journalist who was unable to reach that conclusion on his own. Permanent kiss of death for a journalist.

And if he WAS contacted by her, and even she believed her story was true (so was not hoaxing but was hoaxed), where did information that was "true at the time" come from? Was Clara hoaxed by someone with access to FBI files? That seems beyond far-fetched. 

And if he WAS contacted by her, and her story WAS true and she did know Cooper...how can information have been false or wrong? For example, for one thing it would mean the Elsinore suspect has to be the real Cooper, which would mean there would have to have been an Elsinore suspect...and now we're in murky waters to say the least. And how ever would the "real" Cooper know about the Elsinore story? Was HE in the FBI too? Nah. So who "wrote" those parts--Clara? Cooper? Or Gunther?

The fact is, there are parts of the book that seem clearly to be flights of fancy, either by Clara or Gunther. A journalist cannot just decide to inject fiction or obfuscation into a purported work of reportage, and would have had to check out any such claims if they came from Clara. Since there WAS false and incorrect information, the rest of it cannot be taken as reportage. And once again, that's a kiss of death for a reporter. Once there's any fiction, it's no different from it all being fiction. It would actually be MORE professionally risky to bring the FBI a work in which he made up *some* of the elements but not all, since in the latter case, if caught, he could always say it was just a work of fiction, not purported "journalism."

If you head down all the rabbit holes, I think the one that offers the least contrivance, even with some asterisks, is that it is a novel/hoax, very skillfully constructed, with just enough nuggets of real-world data to seem plausible, or at least not entirely dismissible. 

Gunther is not a reporter and he admits it may all be a hoax though he believes it was Cooper. Gunther mixes his research on the case with "Clara's" accounts and clearly both have errors..

The FBI thought it was a hoax not based on evidence for a hoax but lack of evidence for legitimacy.

So, where is the hoax then..

Gunther was contacted by somebody claiming to be Cooper.. most likely true.

Gunther was contacted 10 years later by a "Clara".. probably true.

Gunther did case research and incorporated it.. there were some obvious errors.

The person claiming to be Cooper was motivated by money..

But, Clara's motivation was different.. something changed in the 10 years... it was to publicize via Gunther that Cooper was dead and he was a actually good guy, this is an attempt to rehabilitate Cooper's public image and close the search for him.. with that agenda Clara's account can be somewhat made up, embellished or twisted enough to hide real identities.

So, hoax or not?? 

Is Clara's agenda consistent with a hoaxer, not really. She didn't ask for money and seemed to be  trying to end the search for Cooper.

So, if there is a hoax it was both the initial "Cooper" and "Clara" a decade apart with the final agenda to end the search for Cooper.. 

Who would have that motivation and why? Somebody or group trying to establish a false public narrative. 

The real Cooper still alive and an associate would be more likely than a hoaxer... any others?

I do have some very interesting evidence but we need more to determine if it was a hoax or not which is why I did a FOIA.

Ciu Bono??

 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by FLYJACK