wolfriverjoe 1,463 #52076 March 31, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, RobertMBlevins said: ...(Also...as far as I know ALL chutes have a pilot chute or some kind of drogue, even reserves, although a trainer might not have one. But then, the trainer was missing when the flight landed in Reno anyway.) I interviewed Norman Hayden one time for about an hour by telephone. His story backs up to a 'T' what Agent Detlor said about the type and delivery of the chutes. Hayden got the unopened MAIN chute returned to him, which ended up in the WA State History Museum. The FBI still has the pink, WORKING reserve. (Well, it DID work before Cooper cut the lines. ) Cooper jumped with the OTHER main chute. The trainer was never found. That's all I know about it. 1 hour ago, FLYJACK said: Here are images of the pink reserve chute, any indication of a drogue or pilot? https://citizensleuths.com/pink-parachute-gallery.html Tina claimed Cooper wrapped the money in white material, he may have wrapped the money bag in part of the chute to better tie it up. "“All emergency bailout rigs, such as the ones provided to DB Cooper, would have a pilot chute,” Metzler said." Ok, I could be wrong about the airstairs. I could be 'misremembering' or the consensus of the group was wrong. But the idea that Cooper had some inside info may not be wrong. He wanted them down in flight. As 377 noted, it's not in the operating handbook, the pilots didn't know it could be done. But Mr Blevins is incorrect about the idea that all canopies have pilot chutes. Modern ones do, but not the old reserves. To be clear, a modern main usually has a 'throw out' pilot chute, where the jumper grabs a handle attached to the pilot chute itself and throws it out into the airflow. The pilot chute is attached to a bridle (long strap) that is attached to the closing pin (small curved pin that holds the container closed) and then the deployment bag, where the actual canopy is folded up and stowed. A reserve has an actual ripcord, and a spring loaded pilot chute. When the reserve ripcord is pulled, the reserve container opens (the main & reserve are right above and below each other on the jumper's back) the spring launches the pilot chute out, which is again attached to a bridle that is attached to the deployment bag, where the canopy is folded and stowed. "Old School' chest mount reserves did NOT have a pilot chute. The entire canopy was tossed out by the jumper to deploy it. The part of the pink canopy where the arrow is pointing is simply the 'apex' of the canopy. Rounds have a hole in the top center. The lines run up the canopy and over the top as a continuous line over the entire canopy. Each individual line runs up from a riser, through the canopy, over the top and back down the other side to another riser. The bundle of lines at the arrow is just all of the lines crossing the top of the canopy. The link to the Citizen's Sleuth page doesn't show any pilot chute either. There are a couple pics that show the whole thing laid out on a table. The top (apex) of the canopy is visible. A pilot chute would be a small (~2' diameter, with a 2' long/6" diameter coil spring inside it) parachute attached to the top of the canopy with a long (6' or so) strap. Old main canopies had pilot chutes. Modern round canopies do too. Most that are in use today are in what we call 'pilot rigs', which are emergency bailout rigs worn by various types of pilots (jump planes, acrobatic, that sort of thing). The rig that Cooper (apparently) jumped was a Navy emergency bailout rig. It was not a 'sport rig' used by skydivers. It was the second rig described above. This would have had a pilot chute. But it wasn't a sport reserve. An emergency bailout rig and a sport reserve (chest mount) are two very different things. Mr Blevins - I didn't see your first response at first, so I didn't quote it. No, I don't think you are a 'sellout'. You are a professional writer. You write stuff, you get paid for it. If you weren't at least a little bit passionate about what you wrote, it wouldn't be anywhere near as good. But I felt before that your passion for what you wrote about KC over rode common sense. You were disregarding the stuff that made him less of a suspect because it didn't line up with your beliefs. Normal, but still wrong. Time often gives us a bit more objectivity and perspective. Edit to add: This is a link to a 'for sale' ad for a spring loaded pilot chute. This is similar to what would have been in the Navy Bailout rig. The strap on the bottom is the bridle, it would be attached to the top of the pink reserve at the line bundle (at the arrow) if it had one.https://www.flighthelmet.com/product/PEQ-1112.html Edited March 31, 2019 by wolfriverjoe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #52077 March 31, 2019 10 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said: If it is true that Cooper asked to have the airstairs lowered before takeoff, but that this was refused on the grounds of safety...about the only reason I could figure why he would want that is because he wasn't planning to stay aboard very long after takeoff. It's even occurred to me that he planned to jump further north than where he ended up, but goofing off with the pink chute, having to wrap the money, get the stairs down, etc delayed his timetable somehow. That is the problem, Cooper didn't initially demand Airstairs down on take off. If he did then it indicates he wanted to jump soon after take off. This is what everyone assumed myself included, but as more FBI files were released it is absolutely clear that his initial demand was for Tina to lower in flight. Airstairs down on take off came up later during negotiations wth crew. Looks like the back chutes had pilot chutes and the front reserves did not, but did they have a "missing" drogue chute? Different from a pilot? If Cooper wrapped the money in white material it had to be the missing drogue chute from the good reserve (if it had one) or from the dummy reserve which was completely missing. Did some digging on the chutes.. FBI NOTES P 1541PARACHUTES FURNISHED TO SUBJECT ARE DESCRIBED AS: TWO FRONT CHEST CHUTES, TWENTYFOUR FEET IN DIAMETER, ALL WHITE NYLON, MODEL T-SEVEN A, WHITE SHROUDS, ABOUT FOURTEEN FEET LONG.NUMBER ONE CONTAINER HAS “_______” WRITTEN ON IT, AND lS ABOUT TEN BY THIRTEEN INCHES, OLIVE DRAB. NUMBER TWO CONTAINER HAS _____________ ON A WHITE PATCH WHICH IS SEWN TO CONTAINER. FBI NOTES P 1578PRIOR TO HOSTESS DEPARTING FROM PASSENGER CABIN, HIJACKER TOLD HER MONEY BAG NOT IN ACCORDANCE INSTRUCTIONS AND TO CUT UP OF THE PARACHUTES TO REWRAP THE MONEY FBI NOTES P 1620Subject believed tohave used parachutes described as follows;1. Chest pack type 24 foot white nylon canopy, white nylon about 14” in length. model T-7A, FBI NOTES P 1908CHEST PACK PARACHUTE OF BRIGHT PINK, ORANGE COLOR, DETERMINED BY MILITARY EXPERTS TO BE IN OPERABLE CONDITION. HOWEVER, IT WAS OPENED WITH THE DROUGE CHUTE MISSING IN THE AIRPLANE. FBI notes P 3114EARL J. COSSEY, 349 North 101st, Seattle, advised that the pilot chutes on both of the back pack parachutes which were furnished to the hijacker on 11/24/71, were white in color. He stated that also the back pack chute which was missing from the aircraft upon its arrival at Reno, Nevada, was white in color.Concerning the chest pack parachutes, he stated that these parachutes are hand deployed and do not contain pilot chutes. The chest pack chute which was sewn up as a practice chute and which was missing from the airplane was also white in color. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,463 #52078 March 31, 2019 7 minutes ago, FLYJACK said: That is the problem, Cooper didn't initially demand Airstairs down on take off. If he did then it indicates he wanted to jump soon after take off. This is what everyone assumed myself included, but as more FBI files were released it is absolutely clear that his initial demand was for Tina to lower in flight. Airstairs down on take off came up later during negotiations wth crew. Looks like the back chutes had pilot chutes and the front reserves did not, but did they have a "missing" drogue chute? Different from a pilot? If Cooper wrapped the money in white material it had to be the missing drogue chute from the good reserve (if it had one) or from the dummy reserve which was completely missing... ...FBI NOTES P 1908CHEST PACK PARACHUTE OF BRIGHT PINK, ORANGE COLOR, DETERMINED BY MILITARY EXPERTS TO BE IN OPERABLE CONDITION. HOWEVER, IT WAS OPENED WITH THE DROUGE CHUTE MISSING IN THE AIRPLANE. FBI notes P 3114EARL J. COSSEY, 349 North 101st, Seattle, advised that the pilot chutes on both of the back pack parachutes which were furnished to the hijacker on 11/24/71, were white in color. He stated that also the back pack chute which was missing from the aircraft upon its arrival at Reno, Nevada, was white in color.Concerning the chest pack parachutes, he stated that these parachutes are hand deployed and do not contain pilot chutes. The chest pack chute which was sewn up as a practice chute and which was missing from the airplane was also white in color. This is one of the problems with taking the FBI files as 'gospel'. Cossey clearly stated that the chest reserves are 'hand deployed and do not contain pilot chutes'. Yet they still seem to think that the pink reserve is 'missing a drogue.' They also can't spell it. To a large degree, 'drogue' and 'pilot chute' are used interchangeably. It's not totally correct, but that's how it goes. A pilot chute is a small parachute that is used during the deployment process. In the case of a modern sport main, it pulls the bridle out, pulls the closing pin from the closing loop (opening the container), pulls the deployment bag out to line stretch (lines are stowed in 'bights', s-folded and held in place with rubber bands), pulls the bag off of the canopy, and then is collapsed as the canopy spreads out and opens. (yes, there are some variations, but this is the general process) A drogue is a small parachute used to stabilize and/or slow down the jumper (or other load) during freefall (technically droguefall). Kittinger used a drogue during his record jump. Both to stabilize him and to keep the speed down where the air was very thin. Tandems use a drogue once out of the plane, both to stabilize the tandem pair and to keep the speed down so that the main doesn't blow up on opening. Tandem terminal is really fast and pretty dangerous. On his record jump, Felix didn't use a drogue. He had a serious issue with a flat spin (he got out of it) and sped up to supersonic speeds. Part of the confusion is because the most common place a drogue is seen is on tandems. Tandem rigs use the drogue as both the drogue and pilot chute. I hope this doesn't come across as too critical or condescending. I'm interested in the truth, in figuring out who got on the plane as "Dan Cooper." The issue is that jumping and the gear used is pretty specialized, can be confusing to folks who don't know what's what, and the sport uses terminology that is complicated, counterintuitive, and very specific. The funny part is that the slang is a very simple and effective way to identify poseurs. It's pretty clear that the person who wrote those notes was not familiar with parachutes or jumping. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #52079 March 31, 2019 5 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said: This is one of the problems with taking the FBI files as 'gospel'. Cossey clearly stated that the chest reserves are 'hand deployed and do not contain pilot chutes'. Yet they still seem to think that the pink reserve is 'missing a drogue.' They also can't spell it. To a large degree, 'drogue' and 'pilot chute' are used interchangeably. It's not totally correct, but that's how it goes. A pilot chute is a small parachute that is used during the deployment process. In the case of a modern sport main, it pulls the bridle out, pulls the closing pin from the closing loop (opening the container), pulls the deployment bag out to line stretch (lines are stowed in 'bights', s-folded and held in place with rubber bands), pulls the bag off of the canopy, and then is collapsed as the canopy spreads out and opens. (yes, there are some variations, but this is the general process) A drogue is a small parachute used to stabilize and/or slow down the jumper (or other load) during freefall (technically droguefall). Kittinger used a drogue during his record jump. Both to stabilize him and to keep the speed down where the air was very thin. Tandems use a drogue once out of the plane, both to stabilize the tandem pair and to keep the speed down so that the main doesn't blow up on opening. Tandem terminal is really fast and pretty dangerous. On his record jump, Felix didn't use a drogue. He had a serious issue with a flat spin (he got out of it) and sped up to supersonic speeds. Part of the confusion is because the most common place a drogue is seen is on tandems. Tandem rigs use the drogue as both the drogue and pilot chute. I hope this doesn't come across as too critical or condescending. I'm interested in the truth, in figuring out who got on the plane as "Dan Cooper." The issue is that jumping and the gear used is pretty specialized, can be confusing to folks who don't know what's what, and the sport uses terminology that is complicated, counterintuitive, and very specific. The funny part is that the slang is a very simple and effective way to identify poseurs. It's pretty clear that the person who wrote those notes was not familiar with parachutes or jumping. There are many errors, conflicts and opinions in the FBI files.. it is the nature of an ongoing investigation. Tina claimed Cooper tried to put the money into an unfolded parachute.. if there was no drogue was that the "missing" dummy chute or the pink reserve? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,463 #52080 March 31, 2019 I would guess that its the missing training dummy reserve (TDR). We covered this item in detail. It was a reserve canopy that had been cut up and resewed with several panels missing. It was used to teach the 'scoop and toss' deployment technique. The idea was that it could be flaked, S-folded & shoved back in the reserve container very quickly during training. Getting a 'real' reserve back in the container takes a bit of time. It was not airworthy and the container had a big red "X" on it, denoting 'not usable'. Nobody has yet come up with a good reason why something so obviously marked was taken. Other than the idea that the cops/agents who got it from Skysports had zero clue what they were taking. The screwy part about this is that Cooper needed some sort of 'container' to hold the money. He asked for a 'knapsack', but didn't get one. I have no idea how he planned on wearing both a knapsack (backpack) AND a rig going out the door. He seems to have wrapped the money up in 'white cloth', which would match with the TDR canopy. However, he had a perfectly usable container. The TDR container. It is a small bag, that closes very securely and is designed to be attached to a rig in a way that doesn't interfere with normal operation. But he took the Navy bailout rig, not the Pioneer sport rig (I seem to recall the other back rig was this). The Pioneer would have had 'D-rings' that were the attachment points for the reserve. The Navy rig did not have those. So, presuming the info is correct, he chose to wrap the money in a loose piece of cloth when he had a 'bag' available. He chose to tie it around his waist or to the rig, when he could have attached the TDR container to the sport rig, using the attachments designed for that purpose. Wrapping the money in a loose piece of cloth is pretty sketchy. Unless you've been there, the force of the air at freefall is hard to comprehend. Anything loose flaps in the wind and beats on you (Helpful hint - don't wear a shirt with a collar in freefall, it hurts). Anything not tied down will flap & fray. One jump and the collar of that shirt was trashed. Even with lots of paracord wrapped around a bundle, the probability of the money staying inside the whole way down is not super high. The probability of the bundle staying tied to him is also not super high. Lots of ideas and guesses that this may have been part of the reason the money on Tena Bar was found. Problem with this is how did it get there. Safecrack PLF did a boatload of work on that issue. TL/DR: Cooper would have used the canopy from the TDR, presuming that what Tina saw is what happened, and what is written down is what she saw. Eyewitness testimony is not super reliable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #52081 March 31, 2019 46 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said: I would guess that its the missing training dummy reserve (TDR). We covered this item in detail. It was a reserve canopy that had been cut up and resewed with several panels missing. It was used to teach the 'scoop and toss' deployment technique. The idea was that it could be flaked, S-folded & shoved back in the reserve container very quickly during training. Getting a 'real' reserve back in the container takes a bit of time. It was not airworthy and the container had a big red "X" on it, denoting 'not usable'. Nobody has yet come up with a good reason why something so obviously marked was taken. Other than the idea that the cops/agents who got it from Skysports had zero clue what they were taking. The screwy part about this is that Cooper needed some sort of 'container' to hold the money. He asked for a 'knapsack', but didn't get one. I have no idea how he planned on wearing both a knapsack (backpack) AND a rig going out the door. He seems to have wrapped the money up in 'white cloth', which would match with the TDR canopy. However, he had a perfectly usable container. The TDR container. It is a small bag, that closes very securely and is designed to be attached to a rig in a way that doesn't interfere with normal operation. But he took the Navy bailout rig, not the Pioneer sport rig (I seem to recall the other back rig was this). The Pioneer would have had 'D-rings' that were the attachment points for the reserve. The Navy rig did not have those. So, presuming the info is correct, he chose to wrap the money in a loose piece of cloth when he had a 'bag' available. He chose to tie it around his waist or to the rig, when he could have attached the TDR container to the sport rig, using the attachments designed for that purpose. Wrapping the money in a loose piece of cloth is pretty sketchy. Unless you've been there, the force of the air at freefall is hard to comprehend. Anything loose flaps in the wind and beats on you (Helpful hint - don't wear a shirt with a collar in freefall, it hurts). Anything not tied down will flap & fray. One jump and the collar of that shirt was trashed. Even with lots of paracord wrapped around a bundle, the probability of the money staying inside the whole way down is not super high. The probability of the bundle staying tied to him is also not super high. Lots of ideas and guesses that this may have been part of the reason the money on Tena Bar was found. Problem with this is how did it get there. Safecrack PLF did a boatload of work on that issue. TL/DR: Cooper would have used the canopy from the TDR, presuming that what Tina saw is what happened, and what is written down is what she saw. Eyewitness testimony is not super reliable. Neither back chute had D rings.. I tried but couldn't confirm/source a "red X" on the dummy, there was an X and red flaps.. but no confirmation of a "red X". The red X came from this forum possibly conflating the X and red flaps. If Cooper tied the money bag to his body then what happened to the dummy container and chute? Why would it be missing if he used it to wrap the money but went back to the money bag? If he used the container plus the money bag, why are the contents missing? Would he throw an opened chute off the plane? or did he actually use it. Perhaps he used the money bag then wrapped it with the dummy chute and tied it to his body.. then what happened to the container? and why did the FBI agent claim to find an opened "white" chute on the plane? BTW, looking at the cut lines from the reserve, couldn't the FBI get DNA, Cooper would have to be holding the lines to cut them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,463 #52082 March 31, 2019 If the "civilian luxury type" rig was a sport rig (for sport skydiving) it should have had D-rings. If it was an emergency bailout rig (pilot rig) it would not. I always thought it was a sport rig, but that may have simply been an assumption on the part of the forum. It's entirely possible the 'red X' was an X and red flaps. Where did everything go? Damned good question. While it is a huge wilderness area, I recall that a placard from the plane was found. Did he leave the money in the bag, wrap it in the canopy, then stuff it in the container? Doubtful. To much bulk to fit. He didn't use the TDR canopy, it wasn't usable as a canopy. Or if he tried, it wouldn't have gone well. Why did one agent claim to find a white canopy? Again, good question. In the notes above, it says both canopies are white. Maybe, in the poor light of the airliner, it looked white. I don't know about DNA. First off, it was pretty much unknown back then. Would there be enough material (sweat?) to obtain DNA? Would it be viable after all that time? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #52083 March 31, 2019 1 hour ago, wolfriverjoe said: If the "civilian luxury type" rig was a sport rig (for sport skydiving) it should have had D-rings. If it was an emergency bailout rig (pilot rig) it would not. I always thought it was a sport rig, but that may have simply been an assumption on the part of the forum. It's entirely possible the 'red X' was an X and red flaps. Where did everything go? Damned good question. While it is a huge wilderness area, I recall that a placard from the plane was found. Did he leave the money in the bag, wrap it in the canopy, then stuff it in the container? Doubtful. To much bulk to fit. He didn't use the TDR canopy, it wasn't usable as a canopy. Or if he tried, it wouldn't have gone well. Why did one agent claim to find a white canopy? Again, good question. In the notes above, it says both canopies are white. Maybe, in the poor light of the airliner, it looked white. I don't know about DNA. First off, it was pretty much unknown back then. Would there be enough material (sweat?) to obtain DNA? Would it be viable after all that time? Bruce went and checked out the chute, https://themountainnewswa.net/2011/10/25/db-cooper-case-heats-up-again-with-controversy-over-parachutes/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,463 #52084 March 31, 2019 Interesting. So the Pioneer was a bailout rig, not a sport rig. In a way, that's absolutely hilarious. Cooper demands two back & two chest parachutes, but neither of the back rigs is capable of having the chest reserve attached to it. Apparently nobody (including Cooper) knew enough about the gear to catch this. For the record, I had read the entire first thread, and the second one up to where I started posting. I kept current on it for some time, but gave up after a while due to idiocy. It reached the point where the idiocy and bickering overpowered the actual discussion and I gave up. I would pop back in from time to time, but it never changed. So I probably missed some info, and am operating off of memory on most of this. It's kind of interesting that the Packing Data Card shows Cossey's sig & cert #, yet Hayden claims to have never met him. Also, the repack date on the card is May 21. At that time the repack interval was 120 days (I think). That means the rig was legal to jump until mid September. Even today, the repack interval is 180 days. By Nov 24th, the rig would be 'out of date' and need a fresh I&R to be legal. So the FBI gave Cooper gear that wasn't legal to jump. There's a couple mentions of a 'confidential seal number'. There's nothing 'confidential' about it. It's a matter of public record and is on each seal the rigger uses. Current PDCs have a spot for it, next to the rigger's sig & cert#. Also, the modification to the ripcord on the Navy rig that was used was discussed on here. The location was moved from the right side to the left. This was apparently a 'not uncommon' mod, preferred by jump pilots because it placed the handle out of reach of frightened students sitting next to them. It was also set up as a 'two stage' pull. The handle had to be pulled up and out to get it out of the pocket, then down to pull the pin & open the container. The danger of having a student accidentally open the pilot's emergency parachute while the door is open should be obvious. When I was flying a 182 jump plane, I had a tandem student grab my leg right above the knee when the door opened. She left bruises. Again, the conflicting info and different stories are a big part of the issue. Without basic facts that we can trust, sorting any of this out is going to be extremely difficult. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #52085 March 31, 2019 The Placard… The placard.. I did some work on that placard a while ago.. It was found basically under the FBI flight path plotted points E of v-23 centre line. Within the variability. It is from a small plastic door for access to an emergency release which was an option on 727’s. Right of the main airstair control panel door. When accessed that small access door disconnects completely. The emergency airstair system releases the upper locks and the airstairs free fall. (if on ground) The placard was plastic or vinyl and screwed or riveted to the small plastic door. You can see the rivet/screw holes and tear away.. (maybe 5 screws/rivets) The found placard had separated from the access door. The emergency door pulls completely off the wall to access the airstair emergency release. Speculation,, Cooper was having trouble getting the airstairs down using the normal operation lever (shown to him by Tina), behind the hinged airstair control door there is a button on top to press while moving a lever. He likely then tried the emergency release. A small door to the right of the main panel, he pulled the door off and threw it out or it fell out of the plane and the placard separated from the door on the way down. That small plastic door is probably still out there in the woods. Tina.. “When she returned to the plane with the last chute, she saw he had one chute cut open and nylon cords out and he was cutting them with his pocket knife. He took the nylon cord and wrapped it around the neck of the money bag numerous times and then he wrapped it around the neck of the money bag numerous times and then he wrapped it a few times from top to bottom, and with the same piece made a loop like a handle at the top. This nylon cord was pinkish in color. He appeared irritated because they didn’t give him a knapsack for the money which he had initially requested, and after trying to put the money in an unfolded parachute, he decided to leave it in the canvas bag." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #52086 March 31, 2019 Emergency airstair release.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,463 #52087 March 31, 2019 1 hour ago, RobertMBlevins said: I am 99 percent sure he said he just dropped off the chutes for repacking, and that could be why he never actually MET Cossey. Says he never opened, or saw the inside of either chute, and only wore one during sport flying because he had to, and never liked doing it. Don't want to go on any more on this because I would have to look at my old notes, otherwise it would be speculation, but that's what I remember from the interview for sure... Fair enough. That actually makes quite a bit of sense. Acrobatic pilots are required by FAR to wear bailout rigs. I can see some 'old school' guys resenting the rule, as Hayden apparently did/does. The concept that he didn't really care much about it, never met the rigger and never saw the canopies or the inside of the rig isn't surprising. There are 'more than a few' current skydivers who have no clue what color their reserve is. And, as long as you clarify what is fact and what is speculation, I'm fine with both. My info is mostly going on memory. I'm not digging back through all 2300 pages of this to find stuff I posted years ago. In fact, my memory on the ripcord location was likely wrong. After a bit of reflection, I think what was really change was not the 'side' the ripcord handle was on, but the location on the main lift web (vertical part of the harness). The phrase 'outboard mod' has popped into my head. IIRC (and I may just be 'more wrong') the handle was moved from the inside of the MLW (pointed inward, toward the sternum) to the outside (pointed towards the arm). The reason of taking it out of reach of a scared student and the two stage pull are correct (I think). Unfortunately, the new format has changed the search function. Either it has degraded quite a bit or it has different parameters (or both). I used to be able to find stuff in the archives quite easily. Now... Not so much. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #52088 March 31, 2019 (edited) wolfriverjoe.. The chutes contained "burp sacks" per FBI, I assume that is a vomit bag but it may have another meaning? Ever heard the term? Edited March 31, 2019 by FLYJACK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,463 #52089 March 31, 2019 No. I've been around a while, but rounds were pretty much done for sport jumpers, even for reserves, by the time I started. Never heard that term at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #52090 March 31, 2019 (edited) Some FBI summaries claim Cooper initially asked for airstairs down on takeoff.. the pilot transcript clearly states otherwise. Other places confirm the transcript. It was discussed but later when the crew was negotiating to get Tina off of the plane to attempt an escape.. Edited March 31, 2019 by FLYJACK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #52092 April 1, 2019 39 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said: That was later, during the negotiations. NOT the initial demand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #52093 April 1, 2019 Lots of new Cooper FBI files... since this thread was closed. Usually updated monthly. https://vault.fbi.gov/D-B-Cooper Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 2,102 #52094 April 1, 2019 So, is that what this thread is? Two or three guys (always guys, no women would care) with some kind of decades long fascination with this event either yelling at each other or trying hard not to yell at each other? Fortunately I can choose to ignore posters. I can't made the thread go back to where it belongs, but I can hide most of the posts by blocking only a few people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #52095 April 2, 2019 (edited) I try to avoid analyzing suspects because people get so offended and so far none even come close to the suspect I am researching so that is my focus right now.. but off the top of my head.. There is no evidence that Cooper worked at Boeing, in fact it is unlikely as he would have been outed with all the publicity. Hijacking a plane to Seattle where one works is unlikely. A Boeing hydraulics engineer would know how to operate the 727 rear Airstairs and Cooper did not, Tina had to show him how even then he had trouble. A Boeing hydraulics engineer not able to use the Airstairs virtually eliminates him. It is NOT inclusive. Cooper had aviation knowledge but not specific 727 knowledge. He got the range slightly short, couldn't operate the door and thought the cockpit controlled the stairs. There is no evidence that the tie particles came from Boeing. There are many sources. Claiming the tie in a pic is the same one as Cooper is more than a stretch.. Klansnic was a family man, Cooper wasn't, he was not at home on thanksgiving. Due to Cooper's age he almost certainly had military experience, that alone doesn't make him Cooper.. hundreds of thousand of males that age range had military experience. Cooper was described as swarthy, latin, Mexican in appearance with wavy/curly/marcelled hair, that does not match Klansnic, a vague resemblance to the sketch is not enough. A photo at PDX of a local Boeing employee is of no value unless it was the day of the hijacking. Airstairs lowered during flight was not a secret, it wasn't common knowledge but it was available in an Aviation Mag, newspapers, Vietnam/Thailand. Cooper was in the aviation industry. IMO, Klansnic is probably one of the weakest suspects ever presented, very few circumstantial pieces there.. a turkey neck alone doesn't cut it. Unless there are more undisclosed pieces Klansnic just doesn't register on the suspect scale. gobble, gobble. Just my opinion. Don't take it personally. I can't say it wasn't him but the same could be said for tens or maybe a hundred thousand people. Edited April 2, 2019 by FLYJACK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,463 #52096 April 2, 2019 Do you know why the FBI got so excited about "L D Cooper"? I do. I even know who he is. (not personally) He was not D B Cooper. Mr Blevins - You may have noticed that the site underwent a revamp since the thread was locked. It was fairly recent. One new feature is the ability to ignore particular posters. Simply 'hover' over their profile pic and an info box will appear. "Ignore User" is a choice in that box. It's pretty handy. Also, the idea that the 'dynamite' in the briefcase was rolls of quarters taped together with red electrical tape is really silly. As silly if not more so than the idea that someone (Barb Dayton maybe?) used a staple remover as a trigger device. Color of the quarters is wrong, the tape won't match colors, and the rolls have 'Quarters $10' on them. Anything more than a cursory glance would have by anyone paying any attention and the game would have been over. Road flares (railroad flares were discussed at length) would be a far, far, far better fake. Real dynamite would have been even better. It wasn't all that hard to get back then. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #52097 April 2, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said: Do you know why the FBI got so excited about "L D Cooper"? I do. I even know who he is. (not personally) He was not D B Cooper. Mr Blevins - You may have noticed that the site underwent a revamp since the thread was locked. It was fairly recent. One new feature is the ability to ignore particular posters. Simply 'hover' over their profile pic and an info box will appear. "Ignore User" is a choice in that box. It's pretty handy. Also, the idea that the 'dynamite' in the briefcase was rolls of quarters taped together with red electrical tape is really silly. As silly if not more so than the idea that someone (Barb Dayton maybe?) used a staple remover as a trigger device. Color of the quarters is wrong, the tape won't match colors, and the rolls have 'Quarters $10' on them. Anything more than a cursory glance would have by anyone paying any attention and the game would have been over. Road flares (railroad flares were discussed at length) would be a far, far, far better fake. Real dynamite would have been even better. It wasn't all that hard to get back then. The evidence Robert refers to is from a local sheriff who had made some notes. the notes are incorrect as that don't match the testimony from the actual witnesses who seen the bomb. he just got things a little mixed up. he had people talking at the Ariel bar with the notes. they also say the plane was at 7,000 which was only for a few minutes during the first part of the flight. I would have to look it up but it doesn't match what the witnesses stated. you don't discount actual testimony from someone who wasn't there or part of the investigation. he was part of the search. much simpler to use road flares or even wood dowels. why use a couple hundred dollars worth of quarters that were flimsy and heavy. approx. eight cylindrical objects about six to eight inches long with four of the items being placed on other being banded with some sort of tape. some wires covered and uncovered. other testimony is similar. Edited April 2, 2019 by mrshutter45 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SivaGanesha 2 #52098 April 2, 2019 4 hours ago, FLYJACK said: Due to Cooper's age he almost certainly had military experience, that alone doesn't make him Cooper.. hundreds of thousand of males that age range had military experience. I'm curious why you'd say that. Cooper is generally described as being in his forties in 1971. In my view, the accuracy of your statement above would depend on whether he was in his early or his late forties. If he was in his late forties, and old enough to have served in WW2, then your statement would definitely be true, since I believe the vast majority of young men in that generation did serve. If he was in his early forties, though, he would have been too young for WW2 but also probably too old for Vietnam. Yes, he might have served in Korea, but that is a much smaller group than WW2 veterans, so I'd question the "almost certainly" part of your statement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,463 #52099 April 2, 2019 2 hours ago, SivaGanesha said: I'm curious why you'd say that. Cooper is generally described as being in his forties in 1971. In my view, the accuracy of your statement above would depend on whether he was in his early or his late forties. If he was in his late forties, and old enough to have served in WW2, then your statement would definitely be true, since I believe the vast majority of young men in that generation did serve. If he was in his early forties, though, he would have been too young for WW2 but also probably too old for Vietnam. Yes, he might have served in Korea, but that is a much smaller group than WW2 veterans, so I'd question the "almost certainly" part of your statement. You have to remember that there was a draft, even in peacetime, in the 50s. Even Elvis was subject to it. So if Cooper was 'fortyish' in 71, that means he was 'twentyish' in 51. And subject to the draft. Either during/in the Korean Conflict or after it as 'just another draftee'. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FLYJACK 654 #52100 April 3, 2019 34 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said: You have to remember that there was a draft, even in peacetime, in the 50s. Even Elvis was subject to it. So if Cooper was 'fortyish' in 71, that means he was 'twentyish' in 51. And subject to the draft. Either during/in the Korean Conflict or after it as 'just another draftee'. It isn't 100% that he was (ex)military but most likely based on age (mid to late 40's), the chutes he requested and he used the term "interphone". Mark's presentation on the chutes.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites