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DB Cooper

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You sound like they should tell you everything. that's not how it works. how many parachutes do you think are white? a quarter, half? other chutes were found in the area and nobody says a word. the FBI didn't explain those either. you don't know if they have the chute or not anymore. they didn't hide anything from Tom. my guess is they gave him access to what was relevant to the case. where are the other chutes found? my guess if they were found not to be involved they probably discarded them. do you keep thing that are no value to you? 

I never once said nobody has a right to ask the FBI anything. never said it, not once. what I did say is they are not going to give you any information on an open case. it's policy. that goes for things that end up being a dead end. you would still be discussing the case. Is it really fair in this case. probably not, but it's there policy. 

You believe they did a piss-poor job based on public information. you really don't know what they know. it also appears that since the case began decades ago they seem tired of the same old same old. nothing new but a handful of people screaming they know who Cooper is. reading the 302's, lots of screaming has been going on for some time and I don't blame them for shutting it down. I bet the Hoffa case is even worse with leads telling them they know where he is or who killed him. conspiracies galore fly out of that case. I think a lot of things could easily be explained if we had everything they have. they just don't care what we think. 

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Try to follow this simple policy the FBI and all law enforcement have. it has nothing to do with a book size amount of data. only one part of the 1,000,000 pages you believe.

The Amboy parachute found near Amboy was determined to not be any of the chutes from the hijacking on November 24, 1971. now, standard policy is NOT to discuss an on going investigation with anyone outside of the FBI. The Amboy chute was part of the investigation even though it was dismissed it still falls under the guidelines of the case. this policy seems to allow others to assume they are covering things up because they are not satisfied with the results. sure, it would be nice for them to go into details about everything, but they don't. look at the 302's. they redact phone numbers that won't even work today. addresses that no longer exist. names of people that are dead. Tom Colbert had to get a lawyer to have files released. 

Why did they dismiss suspect #234, or 547 of the thousand plus suspects they have? what are they hiding? they never explained that either, did they?  how about the full reason they believed LD was Cooper. they never explained that? more time and manpower would be required to satisfy the constant requests from everyone asking or demanding answers to an open case. nothing in the policy says they have to be mean, or nice? it's just a policy. it would be never ending trying to satisfy everyone. once again, you yourself play the very same game they do then you accuse them of covering things up. 

Cossey stated the chute was 30 some feet in diameter. he didn't explain if he measured it or not. someone did. it would be "foolish" if they didn't. the markings are not consistent with a personnel chute. not much can be done if you believe Cossey is lying. he can't be lying about the markings on the chute. it's really not a mystery to me that it has nothing to do with the hijacking. I myself have wasted enough time trying to explain one simple policy the FBI has...

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(edited)

Cossey claimed the chute was made of silk, which we know now to be 99.9% NOT TRUE.

 

Based on what evidence?

 

FBI says later they only did this by phone. How do you identify a chute by telephone? 

Careful, rocket science following..

Hmm, ask the diameter of the chute to what is on record, the markings on it for starters?

Edited by mrshutter45

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Guys, I've mentioned that this thread will be loosely moderated, but that is in relation to the case and discussions of the case.

We've seen a number of threads between users talking to each other, or having quick jabs at each other. You're welcome to discuss the case here, but posts that are not related to the case and merely address other users are not what this thread is for, and we will start handing out more warnings to posts that violate this approach. If you want to have a discussion with another user, send them a DM, but this thread isn't the place for that. By all means, if you disagree on the case, make a post explaining your reasoning and addressing only the case.

In short, before you make a post ask yourself "If someone comes across this page looking for information on the case, will my post provide them with more information and offer something interesting to them" - if the answer is no, don't post it. 

We opened the thread because the topic is fascinating and we want others to be able to follow the case, not so that people have to wade through user's public conflicts.

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Nice to see this forum active again. Wolf River Joe, good to see you back! 

One thing that could tell us a lot about Cooper's parachute knowledge (if it could be confirmed) is the claim that Tosaw made about Cooper examining the packing card on an NB rig (whether it was NB 6 or NB 8 is disputed but the distinction is irrelevant for his issue). Tosaw claims that Tina saw Cooper remove and read the packing card. 

Whuffos don't even know that packing cards exist, much less what info they contain. The packing card pocket on NB 6 and NB 8 rigs is well concealed.  If you don't know where to look it is hard to see the opening. 

I called Himmelsbach and discussed this issue with him. He said that there is nothing in the FBI files that supports Tosaw's claim about Cooper locating, extracting and reading the packing card. He implied that Tosaw made it up.

I wish I knew if it was fact or fiction.

377

 

 

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(edited)

Yeah, I still wonder about the case from time to time. 

I just couldn't stand the garbage being spewed in here. I'd pop back in and read whatever was current, but it never changed.

I wasn't terribly surprised to see the back-biting and bickering start up almost immediately. 
I was half expecting Meso to go "Well, we tried. It was a mistake" and lock it up again. 

Folks like you, Sluggo, Ckret, SafecrackPLF, and a lot of others cared about data, real information.

Unfortunately, too many had an agenda. Simply promoting their version of the story. And going after anyone who had any data that contradicted it. 

One very simple fact about investigation (of any kind) is that valid data has to be accounted for. You can't simply disregard data that doesn't support your hypothesis. You have to account for the discrepancy somehow. 
Toss in the variability of the data and the uncertainty of what is real and what is false and I don't see the case ever being solved.

 

One bit of info that I learned since the unlock is that the Pioneer rig was also a bailout rig. Not a sport rig, as was surmised back when I was reading everything. Was that figured out before the thread was locked? 
I find it super amusing (as I noted above) that nobody, including Cooper, realized that they gave him 2 bailout rigs, one airworthy reserve, and one training dummy reserve. He couldn't have used the good reserve for anything, except cutting it up and using the lines for whatever purpose he had.

Also, the fact that (presuming the pic posted of the Packing Data Card is correct) the Pioneer rig was out of date by a couple months. May 21 to Nov 24 is a lot more than 120 days (it was 120 in 1971, right?).

Edited by wolfriverjoe

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(edited)
4 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Also, the fact that (presuming the pic posted of the Packing Data Card is correct) the Pioneer rig was out of date by a couple months. May 21 to Nov 24 is a lot more than 120 days (it was 120 in 1971, right?).

1

I hadn't noticed that but you are right about the stale I&R Joe. The owner of the two rigs was a sport acro pilot. Wouldn't be the first sport pilot or sport jumper who got a bit behind on repacks. Not that I'd have any first-hand experience...

377

 

Edited by 377

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Oh yeah. I understand how it can happen. 

If the recent posts about the owner are correct, he didn't like the idea that he now HAD TO wear a bailout rig while doing acro. 
So the idea that he'd get an I&R done 'every so often' wouldn't surprise me in any way. I've personally never been present at the DZ when the FAA showed up to do a ramp check. At my original DZ (Wolf River Skydivers), they only showed up once in the 10 years I was part of the DZ.

 

I just find it amusing as all hell that the FBI gave Cooper an 'illegal' rig. Part of me wonders if they knew about it and did it on purpose, so that they could 'stack on' a couple more charges. I doubt it, it's far, far more likely that they simply didn't know enough about the gear to realize it. 

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5 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Also, the fact that (presuming the pic posted of the Packing Data Card is correct) the Pioneer rig was out of date by a couple months. May 21 to Nov 24 is a lot more than 120 days (it was 120 in 1971, right?).

At the time, it was 120 days for "chair-type" parachutes, 60 days for all other types including the Pioneer back.  60 days seems like it would be quite inconvenient for sport jumpers, except that sport jumpers were using chest types that (a) didn't take long to inspect and pack, and (b) could be shared by several jumpers as long as they weren't on the same load.

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"I considered the idea that if Number 1 rig doesn't work, he could have gone back up the stairs and put on the other instead. (?) "

 

Hah. Never thought about that. If ANYTHING launched out of the container and into the windstream he would have likely been pulled off the stairs, but if he had a total container malfunction, like a badly bent pin that prevented the container from opening, he probably could have gone back up and swapped rigs. 

377

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20 hours ago, mark said:

At the time, it was 120 days for "chair-type" parachutes, 60 days for all other types including the Pioneer back.  60 days seems like it would be quite inconvenient for sport jumpers, except that sport jumpers were using chest types that (a) didn't take long to inspect and pack, and (b) could be shared by several jumpers as long as they weren't on the same load.

At my home DZ back in the 1960s they had rental chest reserves, $1 per jump. Seemed like a good deal to me until I read a couple of the packing cards: 24 ft TWILL (not Ripstop) canopies. No thanks.

Bought a cheap surplus 26 ft Navy Conical (Ripstop fabric) and an Army chest container.  Had Perry Stevens (D-51) assemble it and make it all legal (which involved cutting off some Navy canopy mod that had yellow nylon tape segments sewn between panels along the skirt, had some purpose in water landings). 

That 26 ft Navy Conical saved my life later on when I had to cut away from a high speed malfunction. I had heard horror stories about the 24 ft twill reserve canopies ripping from top to bottom on terminal openings. My trusty Navy Conical gave me a standup landing in the pea gravel. 

Still wonder about the Tosaw account of Cooper reading a packing card. Wish I could talk to Tina Mucklow about that alleged incident. 

Derek, what's with the attitude? Let's all be cordial here. There is room for disagreement without disrespect. No need to start the spiral into chaos that got this forum shut down last time.

377

 

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6 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I know none of you knew Ron, so it's okay if you don't offer anything here.

One of the best things about skydiving is the bond, the camaraderie, the brotherhood. A skydiver can walk onto a drop zone anywhere in the world and instantly be among family. And to whatever degree that you have tangented this family by writing in this forum for years, you are welcome. You've always shared personal things about yourself, and you seem like a genuine human being. Any skydiver that's been around for a while knows what it's like to lose a friend suddenly and unexpectedly, so we feel for you. Sincere condolences for your loss. Cry, scream, go outside and kick rocks, come back in and pet your cat. When you go to his house Saturday, tell stories. Poignant ones, funny ones. When someone goes, there's nothing you can do about it but revel in that they were your friend.

BSBD

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On 4/9/2019 at 2:40 PM, wolfriverjoe said:

Yeah, I still wonder about the case from time to time. 

I just couldn't stand the garbage being spewed in here. I'd pop back in and read whatever was current, but it never changed.

I wasn't terribly surprised to see the back-biting and bickering start up almost immediately. 
I was half expecting Meso to go "Well, we tried. It was a mistake" and lock it up again. 

Folks like you, Sluggo, Ckret, SafecrackPLF, and a lot of others cared about data, real information.

Unfortunately, too many had an agenda. Simply promoting their version of the story. And going after anyone who had any data that contradicted it. 

One very simple fact about investigation (of any kind) is that valid data has to be accounted for. You can't simply disregard data that doesn't support your hypothesis. You have to account for the discrepancy somehow. 
Toss in the variability of the data and the uncertainty of what is real and what is false and I don't see the case ever being solved.

 

One bit of info that I learned since the unlock is that the Pioneer rig was also a bailout rig. Not a sport rig, as was surmised back when I was reading everything. Was that figured out before the thread was locked? 
I find it super amusing (as I noted above) that nobody, including Cooper, realized that they gave him 2 bailout rigs, one airworthy reserve, and one training dummy reserve. He couldn't have used the good reserve for anything, except cutting it up and using the lines for whatever purpose he had.

Also, the fact that (presuming the pic posted of the Packing Data Card is correct) the Pioneer rig was out of date by a couple months. May 21 to Nov 24 is a lot more than 120 days (it was 120 in 1971, right?).

I started jumping in 1973 and the repack cycle was 60 days, it was 60 days in 1971.

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Not knowing all the details of the case, my understanding is that most people have spent time looking for the money where the kid found those bills, and looking for where Cooper landed, but no one spent much time looking at other spots along the plane's path like where the placard was found.  It would be great to see your group find something during the camp out.  Have there been hikers in that area or searchers?  What else could be found, the bomb or a parachute?

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Well, the briefcase with the 'bomb' in it (general consensus is that the bomb was fake). 
The rig he jumped (Navy NB-6 or NB-8 Harness/Container with it's canopy).

The 'Training Dummy' reserve, container & butchered canopy. 
The money bag from the bank.

The lines that were cut from the other reserve.

 

Of course, the body of a guy in a business suit (no tie) and the rest of the money. However, the above stuff is mostly synthetic materials (nylon for the most part). If Cooper died and wasn't found, there would be very little of him or the money left by now. 

 

Mr Blevins - Good luck with your trip. It sounds like fun. I wish I could join you folks, but it's not possible.

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Pilots initiated idea of airstairs down on takeoff during negotiations to get Tina off the plane so they could escape as planned. Airstairs on takeoff wasn't Cooper's original demand and the idea was initiated by the crew.

 

 

305 HAV NOXXX NEGOTD RLS OF 2 GIRLS LVG ANY MOMENT  3RD GIRL TO STAY ITH ACFT WANTS HER TO MANIPULATE STAIRS FOR HIM AFTR PLANE AIRBORNE HAVE TRIED TO TEL HIM INXXX UNAM OPRTE STAIRS TO LWRD AFTR TKOFF   TRYING TO GET HIM TO LET  US LWR STAIRS PARTLLY FOR TKOFF

 

Summary..

2 girls released

Tina to stay to lower stairs in flight

Crew tried to get Cooper to lower stairs himself after takeoff

Trying to get him to let us lower stairs partially for takeoff

 

 

COOPERAIRSTAIRSPILOTa.jpg.07f2c3fe2b266a2a49df4cf388f327ec.jpg

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(edited)
3 hours ago, mrshutter45 said:

Read all the files...still more than these listed below...

Bill even explains in a video about missing the chance when Tina was outside the plane to escape. the lowering of the ladder had nothing to do with Bills plan. 

ladder down.png

ladder again.png

It is claimed in some FBI summaries that Cooper wanted the airstairs down on takeoff. They are wrong, that is why everyone believed this false narrative. Those summaries are created from the 302's, those are summaries of FBI interview notes.

The crew comms are absolutely clear and more reliable. Cooper did not initially demand airstairs down on takeoff and it was first brought up by the crew during negotiations to get Tina off the plane. They negotiated the airtairs later. When Cooper knew the plane was going to land in the US he needed to ensure an escape out the airstairs, remember, he got it wrong, he thought the crew controlled the airstairs. (Sorry Klansnic)

 

What does it mean,

Cooper did not want to jump ASAP.

Cooper did not have some unique airstair knowledge.

Edited by FLYJACK

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1 hour ago, DerekGodsey12 said:

DB Cooper had an Afro according to Panama Flyjack. Wonder if his picture was shown to the witnesses? Of course it was! 

EF61DA02-A265-4142-99CF-D625076E0F4F.jpeg

Derek, 

Stop lying, I never claimed that. 

If you want to use innuendo to discredit others to support your suspect I suggest you go elsewhere.

 

If you want a legit discussion then stop lying.

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