377 20 #41551 July 12, 2013 Georger wroteQuoteAs a general premise and sometime historian of this whole matter, I am interested in anyone showing that Cooper was trained at all - in anything! Professionals like Farflung have been here and evidently failed to see any clear signs of training and professionalism in Cooper's actions. There are two alleged facts that point to Cooper having parachute experience, but alas neither can be confirmed as accurate. 1. Cooper located and examined the packing card on the NB 8 rig. 2. Cooper donned the NB 8 rig with ease. Doesn't matter if it was actually an NB 6 for the purpose of this discussion. NB 8 rigs have a VERY well concealed packing card pocket. At the Portland symposium I challenged a non jumper to find it on my stock NB 8 and he was stumped. When I asked another to put the NB 8 on and fasten the straps he had a hell of a time figuring it out. The chest strap arrangement is confusing and even I had trouble the first time I encountered an NB 8. Can I get an amen Amazon? 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #41552 July 12, 2013 As 377 points out, he knew exactly where to find the packing card on the chute he selected. Quote There you go again. You were there !? You saw him look "exactly" where to find the packing card? There is only one place where a packing card would be and only one explanation for a hijacker opening and looking into the parachute he has been given by the police .. . Cooper went straight to that place and looked specifically for that card ? He wasn't looking for anything else, like a tracking device? Or if he was or might have been, he wasn't ... because Professor Blevins knows he wasn't ... because Professor Blevins was there .... and Professor Blevins knows it when he reads it and recognizes it for what "it" is ... therefore, it is. and, even if we accept your admonition that he knew and was looking "exactly" where to look... does that prove he was military trained and an expert, vs. some food service worker who knows Briam Joyner which served in Vietnam and talks a lot about parachutes ? There rest of your diatribe you can sell to whoever will buy it, and worship you, like Jo does. Thanks for telling me I am a "Cooper Fan" while you are an expert. Quote: Geoffrey Gray: "Blevins? Is he making trouble again? He's a Trouble Maker". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #41553 July 12, 2013 377Georger wroteQuoteAs a general premise and sometime historian of this whole matter, I am interested in anyone showing that Cooper was trained at all - in anything! Professionals like Farflung have been here and evidently failed to see any clear signs of training and professionalism in Cooper's actions. There are two alleged facts that point to Cooper having parachute experience, but alas neither can be confirmed as accurate. 1. Cooper located and examined the packing card on the NB 8 rig. 2. Cooper donned the NB 8 rig with ease. Doesn't matter if it was actually an NB 6 for the purpose of this discussion. NB 8 rigs have a VERY well concealed packing card pocket. At the Portland symposium I challenged a non jumper to find it on my stock NB 8 and he was stumped. When I asked another to put the NB 8 on and fasten the straps he had a hell of a time figuring it out. The chest strap arrangement is confusing and even I had trouble the first time I encountered an NB 8. Can I get an amen Amazon? 377 The two "alleged facts" 377 mentions above are in Tosaw's book and Tosaw cites Tina as being the source. If these are in fact "facts", then Cooper had at least a minimum amount of training/experience in emergency type parachutes but probably no more. Since Cooper was expecting to receive back and front parachute rigs, it is unlikely that he would have given any thought to making a jury-rigged attachment of the reserve to the harness until he realized he had no other choice. If Cooper did use some of the shroud lines from the other reserve to tie the first reserve to the harness, then in my opinion he was doing something very dumb and would have been much better to just jump with a single back pack only. Even if the missing reserve was fully functional, it is unlikely that it would stay attached to the harness if the reserve rip cord was pulled during a full-blown free fall. A 10+ "g" jerk or impulse load by a 225 pound jump load on a few shroud lines would be more than they could handle. So Blevins attempts to make a federal case out of what happened to the missing reserve is meaningless. Blevins could use the same arguments to ask what happened to Cooper, the money bag, the missing back chute, the missing food, the "bomb", etc.. Reportedly, an FBI agent stated that "Cooper knew just enough about parachutes to get himself in trouble." That seems to be a very accurate statement. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #41554 July 12, 2013 Robert99***Georger wroteQuoteAs a general premise and sometime historian of this whole matter, I am interested in anyone showing that Cooper was trained at all - in anything! Professionals like Farflung have been here and evidently failed to see any clear signs of training and professionalism in Cooper's actions. There are two alleged facts that point to Cooper having parachute experience, but alas neither can be confirmed as accurate. 1. Cooper located and examined the packing card on the NB 8 rig. 2. Cooper donned the NB 8 rig with ease. Doesn't matter if it was actually an NB 6 for the purpose of this discussion. NB 8 rigs have a VERY well concealed packing card pocket. At the Portland symposium I challenged a non jumper to find it on my stock NB 8 and he was stumped. When I asked another to put the NB 8 on and fasten the straps he had a hell of a time figuring it out. The chest strap arrangement is confusing and even I had trouble the first time I encountered an NB 8. Can I get an amen Amazon? 377 The two "alleged facts" 377 mentions above are in Tosaw's book and Tosaw cites Tina as being the source. If these are in fact "facts", then Cooper had at least a minimum amount of training/experience in emergency type parachutes but probably no more. Since Cooper was expecting to receive back and front parachute rigs, it is unlikely that he would have given any thought to making a jury-rigged attachment of the reserve to the harness until he realized he had no other choice. If Cooper did use some of the shroud lines from the other reserve to tie the first reserve to the harness, then in my opinion he was doing something very dumb and would have been much better to just jump with a single back pack only. Even if the missing reserve was fully functional, it is unlikely that it would stay attached to the harness if the reserve rip cord was pulled during a full-blown free fall. A 10+ "g" jerk or impulse load by a 225 pound jump load on a few shroud lines would be more than they could handle. So Blevins attempts to make a federal case out of what happened to the missing reserve is meaningless. Blevins could use the same arguments to ask what happened to Cooper, the money bag, the missing back chute, the missing food, the "bomb", etc.. Reportedly, an FBI agent stated that "Cooper knew just enough about parachutes to get himself in trouble." That seems to be a very accurate statement. Robert99 We also know he voiced the expectation that the chutes might be coming from MCChord, a military source. It makes sense he would open and inspect those chutes to look for anything suspicious. THAT was one of his first actions (priorities) witnessed by Tina and others; not cutting cord FIRST as Blevins states it. Cutting cord comes much later. And we know there were "issues" with the chutes McChord had planned to send. Cooper opened, inspected, and accepted the chutes brought in and given. We don't know if He commented and said anything technical to Tina about the chutes he was given and checking out ... there is nothing about that in the record so far. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #41555 July 12, 2013 georgerCooper opened, inspected, and accepted the chutes brought in and given. We don't know if He commented and said anything technical to Tina about the chutes he was given and checking out ... there is nothing about that in the record so far. Georger, Let me point out that your use of the term "opened" above does not mean that he pulled the rip cord and looked into the pack itself. If he did, he would NEVER get that thing repacked in that airliner cabin. Any inspection that Cooper made would probably just involve exposing the rip cord pins by unsnapping the flap covering them and checking that the rigger's seal was unbroken as well as checking the rigger's packing card. This is a routine "pre-flight" inspection for emergency parachutes, as opposed to being a "pre-jump" inspection. It doesn't require any skill and only very minimal training. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #41556 July 12, 2013 Robert99 ***Cooper opened, inspected, and accepted the chutes brought in and given. We don't know if He commented and said anything technical to Tina about the chutes he was given and checking out ... there is nothing about that in the record so far. Georger, Let me point out that your use of the term "opened" above does not mean that he pulled the rip cord and looked into the pack itself. If he did, he would NEVER get that thing repacked in that airliner cabin. Any inspection that Cooper made would probably just involve exposing the rip cord pins by unsnapping the flap covering them and checking that the rigger's seal was unbroken as well as checking the rigger's packing card. This is a routine "pre-flight" inspection for emergency parachutes, as opposed to being a "pre-jump" inspection. It doesn't require any skill and only very minimal training. Robert99 Quote Good point! Thanks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #41557 July 12, 2013 377 Georger wrote Quote As a general premise and sometime historian of this whole matter, I am interested in anyone showing that Cooper was trained at all - in anything! Professionals like Farflung have been here and evidently failed to see any clear signs of training and professionalism in Cooper's actions. There are two alleged facts that point to Cooper having parachute experience, but alas neither can be confirmed as accurate. 1. Cooper located and examined the packing card on the NB 8 rig. 2. Cooper donned the NB 8 rig with ease. Doesn't matter if it was actually an NB 6 for the purpose of this discussion. NB 8 rigs have a VERY well concealed packing card pocket. At the Portland symposium I challenged a non jumper to find it on my stock NB 8 and he was stumped. When I asked another to put the NB 8 on and fasten the straps he had a hell of a time figuring it out. The chest strap arrangement is confusing and even I had trouble the first time I encountered an NB 8. Can I get an amen Amazon? 377 Amen Brother 377 ( As an aside.. want to bet I could roll up the main lift webbing on an NB-6 or NB-8 and get it to go into the rather large clips as found on many chest mounted reserves that are supposed to clip onto the D-ring equipped harnesses we used to use back in the day??) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 20 #41558 July 12, 2013 Amazon wroteQuote( As an aside.. want to bet I could roll up the main lift webbing on an NB-6 or NB-8 and get it to go into the rather large clips as found on many chest mounted reserves that are supposed to clip onto the D-ring equipped harnesses we used to use back in the day??) I tried it Amazon, hoping to demo this at the Portland symposium, and it was a no go. NB 8 webbing even when rolled was too big to fit within my 60s vintage military chest reserve attachment clips. If the clips were just a bit bigger it might work. Catching any big salmon this season? Been some hot King Salmon bites 14 miles off the coast, SE of the Farallon Islands, big ones. Blue whales are wowing tourists in Monterey Bay. Many people don't know that they are the largest animal that has lived on Earth. Most think dinosaurs were way bigger. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #41559 July 12, 2013 RobertMBlevinsYeah...well...I get the idea it takes a minimum of training to even consider the idea you might be able to jump out the back of a moving jet at 175MPH and survive. I personally think that whomever Cooper was, there are two things you could say about him. First, he probably wasn't a civilian jumper. If he was, he might have gone for the sport model Pioneer. Second, the way he latched onto the NB-6/8 container makes me believe he learned whatever he knew about skydiving from the military. And he had already popped the one working front chute for those cords. I think at this point he already knew the dummy trainer was a non-starter, and this also leads me to believe he had no intention of even using a reserve, maybe because of the additional load he was already going to try jumping with, i.e. the money bag and briefcase. There is NO evidence to suggest that the hijacker intended to somehow tie the non-working reserve to himself. Blevins, You continue to make assumptions that are based on wild speculations only. Following is a discussion of some of them. It really doesn't take any specific training to make and survive an emergency parachute. The "minimum" training for such an action used to be "jump, count to 10, and pull the ripcord". Prior to the development of civilian sports parachutes, all skydiving jumps that I have heard about used surplus military equipment. It was cheap, good, and hogged by the jumpers on the west coast, which means we had a hard time finding equipment on the east coast. All of my jumps in the early 1960s used surplus military parachutes with a 28 foot canopy that had been modified to a "5-TU" configuration. When the main canopy didn't get the job done, then the military surplus 24 foot reserve canopy did. I speak from experience on this matter. So you can not claim that Cooper was a military trained jumper simply based of the fact that he was familiar with military equipment. And it has been pointed out numerous times on this thread, Cooper said that he did not want military parachutes from McChord. It may have been because it was widely known at that time that the military parachutes contained a radio beacon to help the Search and Rescue people locate the jumper. If Cooper didn't originally plan to use a reserve parachute then why did he specifically ask for two of them? This is evidence that he intended to use a reserve chute as part of a back/chest two chute rig. If he did jury-rig a chest chute to the harness, it was simply a last minute action rather than something he had planned to do from the outset. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #41560 July 12, 2013 RobertMBlevinsWell, yes...I have made some assumptions. But those assumptions are based on things the hijacker actually requested, or his actions, or things he said during the course of the hijacking. They are not 'wild speculations'. As I said, in the lack of other evidence, you have to look at what happened. Words from his mouth, his decisions, his actions, portions of the known evidence that can be verified. Sure, it's possible the hijacker somehow tied the non-working reserve to his chest. Maybe. It's just as possible he tossed it away for one of two reasons: In anger, or as a red herring for ground searches. If he actually stated he didn't WANT a military chute, or specifically a military chute from McChord, then why would he immediately choose the NB-6 as his jump vehicle? I think the reason he asked for multiple parachutes was to discourage the FBI from giving him ones that didn't work. Blevins, To answer your question, Cooper probably selected the NB-6 because he knew it didn't come from McChord, was packed by a civilian, etc. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 20 #41561 July 12, 2013 The smart thing he did to discourage sabotaged chutes was to request two of each. It gave the impression that he might force a crew member to jump. Sure wish we knew for sure whether Tina saw him remove the packing card from an NB 6 or NB 8. If Cooper did that without fumbling around then he very likely was familiar with that rig type. The money find drives me nuts. I cant figure it out. I stare at my Cooper twenty and wish I could cross examine it. They say money talks. This twenty has apparently taken the fifth. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #41562 July 12, 2013 377 Amazon wrote Quote ( As an aside.. want to bet I could roll up the main lift webbing on an NB-6 or NB-8 and get it to go into the rather large clips as found on many chest mounted reserves that are supposed to clip onto the D-ring equipped harnesses we used to use back in the day??) I tried it Amazon, hoping to demo this at the Portland symposium, and it was a no go. NB 8 webbing even when rolled was too big to fit within my 60s vintage military chest reserve attachment clips. If the clips were just a bit bigger it might work. Catching any big salmon this season? Been some hot King Salmon bites 14 miles off the coast, SE of the Farallon Islands, big ones. Blue whales are wowing tourists in Monterey Bay. Many people don't know that they are the largest animal that has lived on Earth. Most think dinosaurs were way bigger. 377 Depends on the snaps I bet.. but I have some huge ones on a couple of my belly warts.. others are smaller without the larger clips with wings off of the gate. mine use the older style hardware.. large wings. I have some that look like they were b-4 snaps.. no wings at all. Newer snaps fit smaller webbing and d-rings. Nope no salmon... just not up to doing all the stuff to get the boat ready... 1 heart surgery down... a couple more to go before the ticker will be in better shape to do stuff like that again. I may just go out on a charter when Bouy 10 opens.. let the kids do all the work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 20 #41563 July 12, 2013 Blevins wroteQuoteNo one at any of the dropzones ever fingered a suspect who panned out. That doesnt mean much. I know some DZs and clubs from that era who wouldnt have ratted out a fellow jumper even if he showed up with 200,000 in twenties a few days after the skyjack. He'd have to buy beer for the rest of his days though. It was a different scene in the late 60s and early 70s. No tandems. Very few if any outsiders at a DZ on any given weekend especially if it was in a rural area. Jumpers formed a very close knit group. It's different now. Not necessarily worse, just different. Can I get an amen from Guru and Airtwardo on this? 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mrshutter45 21 #41564 July 12, 2013 377 Blevins wrote Quote No one at any of the dropzones ever fingered a suspect who panned out. That doesnt mean much. I know some DZs and clubs from that era who wouldnt have ratted out a fellow jumper even if he showed up with 200,000 in twenties a few days after the skyjack. He'd have to buy beer for the rest of his days though. It was a different scene in the late 60s and early 70s. No tandems. Very few if any outsiders at a DZ on any given weekend especially if it was in a rural area. Jumpers formed a very close knit group. It's different now. Not necessarily worse, just different. Can I get an amen from Guru and Airtwardo on this? 377 what you are saying might be true, but don't forget the ground can silence you much better. no long term beer tabs required "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #41565 July 12, 2013 Quote Amen Brother 377 ( As an aside.. want to bet I could roll up the main lift webbing on an NB-6 or NB-8 and get it to go into the rather large clips as found on many chest mounted reserves that are supposed to clip onto the D-ring equipped harnesses we used to use back in the day??) Explain that in more detail - please for the novices on the thread. I found this very interesting - perhaps because I don't have a damn clue what you are talking about.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #41566 July 12, 2013 Yeah...well... According to FBI transcripts, by the time that Mucklow delivered the last of the back chutes, the hijacker was already busy cutting cords and wrapping the bag. Quote Yea well .... I dont know what Transcripts you are reading? Must be the same Transcripts that came with your Palmer Report you claim to have? Here's the actual timeline from the Transcripts I have, Sham Wow Blevins! 5:30pm t1 Everything has arrived. Al Lee on way to meet on runway. (Transcript) 5:47pm t1 305 has landed. Cooper goes to hide in Lavatory. HE WILL NOT ALLOW ANYONE ELSE BUT HER TO BRING THE CHUTES ON. SHE WILL MAKE FOUR TRIPS. HE UNDERSTANDS THAT – THIS IS HIS REQUEST. (Transcript) 5:59 - 6:59 (15:59 – 18:59 PST) The transcripts do not have “Time Stamps” for this period, so all information from this period is presented together. During this 1 hour period there was a lot of communication with SEA GRND and others who were involved with the refueling, exchange (release) of passengers, exchange of parachutes and exchange of the ransom money. (Sluggo Timeline) Hancock was allowed back in to retreive her purse. Hancock and Mucklow report Cooper first inspected the money brought on board and was excited, offered some to Tina, then turned his attention to the parchutes and briefly inspected them, engaged Mucklow in conversation about some instruction sheet for one of the chutes, inspected the chutes further, then selected one and put it on "easily". (Ckret posts) 6:59 - 7:34 Cooper sitting with Mucklow irate about fueling delays and looking out the window. Discussions about route and rear stairs doors opening at take off ... finally demanded "Get the show on the road"... (Transcript & Sluggo) 7:22 (19:22 PST) Cooper says; “Get the plane on the road”. (Transcript) 7:34 (19:33 PST) Flt 305 takes off (Transcpt) 7:41 NWA - Stewardess Mucklow allowed to go to cockpit. Stops & turns at curtain and watches Cooper now tying the bag around his waste. (Transcript) 7:42 NWA - HJ advised by inter-phone that he was having difficulty getting steps down. (Transcript) Note* There is nothing in the Transcripts about Mucklow seeing Cooper cut cord from any chute or a firm timeline for when he did that, between the long period from 5:47 - 7:41 when Muckow last saw Cooper. You did not get this from the Trascripts because it isn't there! You just made it up or you have another source ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 20 #41567 July 12, 2013 skyjack71 Quote Amen Brother 377 ( As an aside.. want to bet I could roll up the main lift webbing on an NB-6 or NB-8 and get it to go into the rather large clips as found on many chest mounted reserves that are supposed to clip onto the D-ring equipped harnesses we used to use back in the day??) Explain that in more detail - please for the novices on the thread. I found this very interesting - perhaps because I don't have a damn clue what you are talking about. Jo, It's all about whether you could use the chest mount reserve attachment clips to attach the reserve to the main harness without clipping to D rings. There were no D rings on Coopers main rigs so Amazon was speculating about whether the reserve clips could just be attached on the nylon webbing of the main chute harness. I was unable to do this, the webbing volume was too large, but Amazon says that she has seen larger reserve clips that may have been able to clip into the main harness webbing successfully. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #41568 July 12, 2013 377The smart thing he did to discourage sabotaged chutes was to request two of each. It gave the impression that he might force a crew member to jump. Sure wish we knew for sure whether Tina saw him remove the packing card from an NB 6 or NB 8. If Cooper did that without fumbling around then he very likely was familiar with that rig type. The money find drives me nuts. I cant figure it out. I stare at my Cooper twenty and wish I could cross examine it. They say money talks. This twenty has apparently taken the fifth. 377 Apparently Cooper was NOT looking for a packing card. He was searching for any devices that might have been concealed. What was in the paper bag Cooper carried on with him? Perhaps he was expecting to need devices to attach things! He had the brief case and he would need to take that because his prints would be all over it (or maybe he did NOt expect to survive). So holding on to a brief case - just how was he going to transport the money. It did NOT arrive in the Knapsack he requested...note that Cooper was agitated by this request not being filled. Also not Tina commented about an item in the brief case - that has LONG LONG been ignored. I will let you guys do the research and state whatever you think it was, but there are those who already know what it was. It has been puzzling WHY you guys ignored this one little item all of these yrs. Most of you have gotten lost in the technical aspects and forgot what was ACTUALLY seen and HOW Cooper reacted to situtuation aboard the plane. Cooper checked the chutes over only because he expected tampering. Where the card was is an excellent place to put some kind of device. Some individuals can make something from basically nothing - that is just how they are. I think Cooper used whatever he had to work for him. Perhaps the battery in the brief case had a dual purpose - a power source for something he may have had strapped on his body. Perhaps Cooper was so distraught about his life - that it was a DO or DIE things. He just didn't care one way or the other. Most of you do NOT seem to focus on the basics and his reactions to Tina. NOT one of you seem to remember he was UPSET about there being NO knapsack - so what did he do about that and how did the crew (Tina) accomodate him regarding this. There WERE things on the plane in the overhead compartments and under the seat. Did planes had overhead compartments in 1971? Do any of you know if the plane used by Cooper had OVERHEAD compartments? So if there were NO overhangs where did the stews stow their stuff. The stews traveled very lightly as they some times did not stay with the flight. In 1971 - how many of you saw what the stewardesses used for their overnight bags? Did we have roll ons in 1971. Frankly I don't remember because the only plane I had been in prior to 1971 was a small private plane. Why don't some of you who KNOW elaborate on the items carried on to planes in 1971. I think you will find yourselves asking yourself a LOT of Stupid questions about Cooper's actions. The only resources available to Cooper would indicate military or smoke jumping experience or perhaps exposure by way of packing, drug runners, covert actions, plane thefts, transporting of illegal things to and from...this list is not a large list (but Intermountain Communications used a lot of guys who had NO choices left in LIFE)...guys paid if they survived a good sum of money in CASH. Most of the guys were dispensible - as that is how ex-cons where viewed in the day!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #41569 July 12, 2013 RobertMBlevins I don't remember putting any timestamps on anything. Page 72, Skyjack, talks about Cooper popping the reserve and cutting lines. According to Gray, Mucklow watches him as he does it. When I said 'transcripts' I should have said 'witness reports'. Gray based much of his book (the parts about what actually went on inside the plane during the hijacking) on his viewing of the witness reports by the stews, passengers, etc. Quote You are always misquoting .... Gray doesnt give any source either ... Quote the passage in Gray. I wonder if it even says what you claim ... All of this goes to your original piece of boilerplate that cutting cord was a first priority on Cooper's part - which is wasn't. So you have made stuff up no matter how this goes - Some people think Cooper would not have opened the chutes at all to look at them were it not for Tina first presenting Cossey's instruction sheet to Cooper which seemed to cause Cooper to pause and think . . . there is no question what happened first in that order of events. Lastly, there is no point in continuing this melodrama you keep spinning. Youve done it since day-1 when you came here peddling KC writing you damned book, and you are still doing it. And you will continue to do it to the bitter end - - - You are what you are. A spin artist. It's pointless to even try to combat htis further. Have a nice lying day. You even knew before posting that you were relying on Gray and not the Transcripts but you went ahead and omitted any mention of Gray and said Transcripts instead! Next you will be quoting ... yourself. You wont need Gray or Dropzone. That is where you are headed! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #41570 July 12, 2013 georger Yeah...well... According to FBI transcripts, by the time that Mucklow delivered the last of the back chutes, the hijacker was already busy cutting cords and wrapping the bag. Quote Yea well .... I dont know what Transcripts you are reading? Must be the same Transcripts that came with your Palmer Report you claim to have? Here's the actual timeline from the Transcripts I have, Sham Wow Blevins! 5:30pm t1 Everything has arrived. Al Lee on way to meet on runway. (Transcript) 5:47pm t1 305 has landed. Cooper goes to hide in Lavatory. HE WILL NOT ALLOW ANYONE ELSE BUT HER TO BRING THE CHUTES ON. SHE WILL MAKE FOUR TRIPS. HE UNDERSTANDS THAT – THIS IS HIS REQUEST. (Transcript) 5:59 - 6:59 (15:59 – 18:59 PST) The transcripts do not have “Time Stamps” for this period, so all information from this period is presented together. During this 1 hour period there was a lot of communication with SEA GRND and others who were involved with the refueling, exchange (release) of passengers, exchange of parachutes and exchange of the ransom money. (Sluggo Timeline) Hancock was allowed back in to retreive her purse. Hancock and Mucklow report Cooper first inspected the money brought on board and was excited, offered some to Tina, then turned his attention to the parchutes and briefly inspected them, engaged Mucklow in conversation about some instruction sheet for one of the chutes, inspected the chutes further, then selected one and put it on "easily". (Ckret posts) 6:59 - 7:34 Cooper sitting with Mucklow irate about fueling delays and looking out the window. Discussions about route and rear stairs doors opening at take off ... finally demanded "Get the show on the road"... (Transcript & Sluggo) 7:22 (19:22 PST) Cooper says; “Get the plane on the road”. (Transcript) 7:34 (19:33 PST) Flt 305 takes off (Transcpt) 7:41 NWA - Stewardess Mucklow allowed to go to cockpit. Stops & turns at curtain and watches Cooper now tying the bag around his waste. (Transcript) 7:42 NWA - HJ advised by inter-phone that he was having difficulty getting steps down. (Transcript) Note* There is nothing in the Transcripts about Mucklow seeing Cooper cut cord from any chute or a firm timeline for when he did that, between the long period from 5:47 - 7:41 when Muckow last saw Cooper. You did not get this from the Trascripts because it isn't there! You just made it up or you have another source ? Well, those transcripts are missing a vital steps in the process - the process in which the passengers where allowed to DEPLANE - Where is the conversation that took place between Tina and Cooper during this time frame? "We all have a little larcency in our hearts". Duane's ex used to say that all of the time - strange that was also the expression used by Clara the featured woman in Max Gunther's book! Also note the one song Duane did so well was "You'll Never Know" Would have been wonderful if there was Caller Id when Clara was calling Max - this case would have closed when Max revealed his conversations with Clara to the FBICopyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #41571 July 13, 2013 skyjack71 Quote Amen Brother 377 ( As an aside.. want to bet I could roll up the main lift webbing on an NB-6 or NB-8 and get it to go into the rather large clips as found on many chest mounted reserves that are supposed to clip onto the D-ring equipped harnesses we used to use back in the day??) Explain that in more detail - please for the novices on the thread. I found this very interesting - perhaps because I don't have a damn clue what you are talking about. If you roll the nylon webbing harness material it does not take up much room.. especially well worn sport rigs that are very supple. I will get piccies Jo... I was just curious and speculating. I was diging thru tub after tub after Tub of parachutes and harnesses from the 1950-60-1970's last weekend. I found my NB-6... and found some of my belly warts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #41572 July 13, 2013 skyjack71*** Yeah...well... According to FBI transcripts, by the time that Mucklow delivered the last of the back chutes, the hijacker was already busy cutting cords and wrapping the bag. Quote Yea well .... I dont know what Transcripts you are reading? Must be the same Transcripts that came with your Palmer Report you claim to have? Here's the actual timeline from the Transcripts I have, Sham Wow Blevins! 5:30pm t1 Everything has arrived. Al Lee on way to meet on runway. (Transcript) 5:47pm t1 305 has landed. Cooper goes to hide in Lavatory. HE WILL NOT ALLOW ANYONE ELSE BUT HER TO BRING THE CHUTES ON. SHE WILL MAKE FOUR TRIPS. HE UNDERSTANDS THAT – THIS IS HIS REQUEST. (Transcript) 5:59 - 6:59 (15:59 – 18:59 PST) The transcripts do not have “Time Stamps” for this period, so all information from this period is presented together. During this 1 hour period there was a lot of communication with SEA GRND and others who were involved with the refueling, exchange (release) of passengers, exchange of parachutes and exchange of the ransom money. (Sluggo Timeline) Hancock was allowed back in to retreive her purse. Hancock and Mucklow report Cooper first inspected the money brought on board and was excited, offered some to Tina, then turned his attention to the parchutes and briefly inspected them, engaged Mucklow in conversation about some instruction sheet for one of the chutes, inspected the chutes further, then selected one and put it on "easily". (Ckret posts) 6:59 - 7:34 Cooper sitting with Mucklow irate about fueling delays and looking out the window. Discussions about route and rear stairs doors opening at take off ... finally demanded "Get the show on the road"... (Transcript & Sluggo) 7:22 (19:22 PST) Cooper says; “Get the plane on the road”. (Transcript) 7:34 (19:33 PST) Flt 305 takes off (Transcpt) 7:41 NWA - Stewardess Mucklow allowed to go to cockpit. Stops & turns at curtain and watches Cooper now tying the bag around his waste. (Transcript) 7:42 NWA - HJ advised by inter-phone that he was having difficulty getting steps down. (Transcript) Note* There is nothing in the Transcripts about Mucklow seeing Cooper cut cord from any chute or a firm timeline for when he did that, between the long period from 5:47 - 7:41 when Muckow last saw Cooper. You did not get this from the Trascripts because it isn't there! You just made it up or you have another source ? Well, those transcripts are missing a vital steps in the process - the process in which the passengers where allowed to DEPLANE - Where is the conversation that took place between Tina and Cooper during this time frame? "We all have a little larcency in our hearts". Duane's ex used to say that all of the time - strange that was also the expression used by Clara the featured woman in Max Gunther's book! Also note the one song Duane did so well was "You'll Never Know" Would have been wonderful if there was Caller Id when Clara was calling Max - this case would have closed when Max revealed his conversations with Clara to the FBIQuote Thats was Blevin's remarks NOT MINE! Learn to reed. "Yeah...well... According to FBI transcripts, by the time that Mucklow delivered the last of the back chutes, the hijacker was already busy cutting cords and wrapping the bag. " Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ParrotheadVol 70 #41573 July 13, 2013 RobertMBlevins The Spokesman-Review published an article about ten days after the hijacking. Was the FBI already hitting the bricks at the DZ's? I say yes. See picture. Wow. That's an amazing likeness. I'd bet money though, that if we ever find out who Cooper was, none of those drawings are going be even close to accurate. Moot point though. I'd be shocked if this is ever solved."They were saying he was never gonna make it now, now that daylight had set in. But later that night, they were shining those lights back down on that mountain again." - Todd Snider Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ParrotheadVol 70 #41574 July 13, 2013 About Christiansen: 1. Why would he ask for "negotiable American currency"? 2. The Money At Tena Bar: If KC was Cooper, he obviously got away with and used the money. So losing the money and it washing up at Tena Bar isn't plausible. He was already spending the money fairly soon after the crime, so probably didn't still have 3 bundles to go and "plant" years later at Tena Bar. He may have still had money in accounts, investments or whatever. But still holding on to the original loot? I doubt it. The Tena Bar money, in my opinion, is a huge obsticle to anyone promoting Christiansen as Cooper. I too, am curious about the dummy chute. Probably not very important to the case, but one does wonder about its fate."They were saying he was never gonna make it now, now that daylight had set in. But later that night, they were shining those lights back down on that mountain again." - Todd Snider Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #41575 July 13, 2013 RobertMBlevins******Well, yes...I have made some assumptions. But those assumptions are based on things the hijacker actually requested, or his actions, or things he said during the course of the hijacking. They are not 'wild speculations'. As I said, in the lack of other evidence, you have to look at what happened. Words from his mouth, his decisions, his actions, portions of the known evidence that can be verified. Sure, it's possible the hijacker somehow tied the non-working reserve to his chest. Maybe. It's just as possible he tossed it away for one of two reasons: In anger, or as a red herring for ground searches. If he actually stated he didn't WANT a military chute, or specifically a military chute from McChord, then why would he immediately choose the NB-6 as his jump vehicle? I think the reason he asked for multiple parachutes was to discourage the FBI from giving him ones that didn't work. Blevins, To answer your question, Cooper probably selected the NB-6 because he knew it didn't come from McChord, was packed by a civilian, etc. Robert99 Same thing can be said for the Pioneer. But he didn't choose that one. Look...what about this. We know Cooper got the front chutes first, and had a chance to inspect them while Tina was busy with bringing the others on board. Why did he choose to pop the one that worked? Was it guesswork, i.e. he assumes both work and by chance picks the one that will open to cut cords from it? Or...did he check both first, realize one was a no-go, and pop the one that did work? No one knows this. But...if he did discover one was a non-starter and he pops the other one anyway for the cord...then you can safely assume he wasn't planning on using a reserve. If he were, he would have NOT popped the working reserve. He would have waited for the back chutes to come aboard and then selected one of THOSE to cut cord from. When you look at his actions when the back chutes arrive, i.e. immediately selecting the NB-6 over the Pioneer and checking the card, it makes you believe he knew what he was doing. You've made some assumptions, too. For example, you say that it was common knowledge that Search and Rescue radio beacons were used in military chutes in 1971. But how do you know when the last time was the hijacker ever used a parachute? Did he say he didn't want chutes out of McChord because they might have radio beacons? I have not heard this. In addition, the FBI heavily investigated both local and non-local dropzones and came up empty. I think if Cooper was a regular at any civilian DZ, the FBI would have gotten a lead on him sooner or later. This was a major part of the investigation for years. And Cooper was allegedly in his mid-40's, with a sketch out there as famous as the Mona Lisa. This sounds more like a guy who hadn't jumped in a long time, and certainly was not a regular at any dropzone, otherwise someone would have remembered him. So assuming he knew of the radio beacons in 1971 is a BIG assumption, unless the hijacker said so specifically. One of the biggest problems with Cooper being a civilian jumper is quite simple. No one at any of the dropzones ever fingered a suspect who panned out. If he wasn't a civilian skydiver, then where did he learn how to use one? Blevins, Stop the bullshit! As has already been explained to you today as well as in previous posts, Cooper specifically did not want a parachute from McChord. He didn't say he didn't want a military parachute. In 1971, it was common knowledge that military parachutes were being equipped with radio beacons so that Search and Rescue aircraft could locate and recover the crewmen. It doesn't make any difference if Cooper had ever jumped before, all he had to do was read the newspapers to know about the radio beacons. Presumably, you are aware that there was a war going on in Southeast Asia in 1971. At least it was so reported on TV and in all the newspapers where I lived. As I have already told you several times today, if Cooper had any sky diving experience during the 1960s, it was probably with surplus military parachutes. But in reality, there is no particular evidence to prove that Cooper had ever jumped. I believe it was Ckret who pointed out that Cooper may have been a kicker or load master on military or OGO aircraft with only superficial knowledge of parachuting. So stop trying to make another KC story out of a trivial piece of information. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1658 1659 1660 1661 1662 1663 1664 1665 1666 1667 1668 Next Page 1663 of 2541 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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Robert99 37 #41553 July 12, 2013 377Georger wroteQuoteAs a general premise and sometime historian of this whole matter, I am interested in anyone showing that Cooper was trained at all - in anything! Professionals like Farflung have been here and evidently failed to see any clear signs of training and professionalism in Cooper's actions. There are two alleged facts that point to Cooper having parachute experience, but alas neither can be confirmed as accurate. 1. Cooper located and examined the packing card on the NB 8 rig. 2. Cooper donned the NB 8 rig with ease. Doesn't matter if it was actually an NB 6 for the purpose of this discussion. NB 8 rigs have a VERY well concealed packing card pocket. At the Portland symposium I challenged a non jumper to find it on my stock NB 8 and he was stumped. When I asked another to put the NB 8 on and fasten the straps he had a hell of a time figuring it out. The chest strap arrangement is confusing and even I had trouble the first time I encountered an NB 8. Can I get an amen Amazon? 377 The two "alleged facts" 377 mentions above are in Tosaw's book and Tosaw cites Tina as being the source. If these are in fact "facts", then Cooper had at least a minimum amount of training/experience in emergency type parachutes but probably no more. Since Cooper was expecting to receive back and front parachute rigs, it is unlikely that he would have given any thought to making a jury-rigged attachment of the reserve to the harness until he realized he had no other choice. If Cooper did use some of the shroud lines from the other reserve to tie the first reserve to the harness, then in my opinion he was doing something very dumb and would have been much better to just jump with a single back pack only. Even if the missing reserve was fully functional, it is unlikely that it would stay attached to the harness if the reserve rip cord was pulled during a full-blown free fall. A 10+ "g" jerk or impulse load by a 225 pound jump load on a few shroud lines would be more than they could handle. So Blevins attempts to make a federal case out of what happened to the missing reserve is meaningless. Blevins could use the same arguments to ask what happened to Cooper, the money bag, the missing back chute, the missing food, the "bomb", etc.. Reportedly, an FBI agent stated that "Cooper knew just enough about parachutes to get himself in trouble." That seems to be a very accurate statement. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #41554 July 12, 2013 Robert99***Georger wroteQuoteAs a general premise and sometime historian of this whole matter, I am interested in anyone showing that Cooper was trained at all - in anything! Professionals like Farflung have been here and evidently failed to see any clear signs of training and professionalism in Cooper's actions. There are two alleged facts that point to Cooper having parachute experience, but alas neither can be confirmed as accurate. 1. Cooper located and examined the packing card on the NB 8 rig. 2. Cooper donned the NB 8 rig with ease. Doesn't matter if it was actually an NB 6 for the purpose of this discussion. NB 8 rigs have a VERY well concealed packing card pocket. At the Portland symposium I challenged a non jumper to find it on my stock NB 8 and he was stumped. When I asked another to put the NB 8 on and fasten the straps he had a hell of a time figuring it out. The chest strap arrangement is confusing and even I had trouble the first time I encountered an NB 8. Can I get an amen Amazon? 377 The two "alleged facts" 377 mentions above are in Tosaw's book and Tosaw cites Tina as being the source. If these are in fact "facts", then Cooper had at least a minimum amount of training/experience in emergency type parachutes but probably no more. Since Cooper was expecting to receive back and front parachute rigs, it is unlikely that he would have given any thought to making a jury-rigged attachment of the reserve to the harness until he realized he had no other choice. If Cooper did use some of the shroud lines from the other reserve to tie the first reserve to the harness, then in my opinion he was doing something very dumb and would have been much better to just jump with a single back pack only. Even if the missing reserve was fully functional, it is unlikely that it would stay attached to the harness if the reserve rip cord was pulled during a full-blown free fall. A 10+ "g" jerk or impulse load by a 225 pound jump load on a few shroud lines would be more than they could handle. So Blevins attempts to make a federal case out of what happened to the missing reserve is meaningless. Blevins could use the same arguments to ask what happened to Cooper, the money bag, the missing back chute, the missing food, the "bomb", etc.. Reportedly, an FBI agent stated that "Cooper knew just enough about parachutes to get himself in trouble." That seems to be a very accurate statement. Robert99 We also know he voiced the expectation that the chutes might be coming from MCChord, a military source. It makes sense he would open and inspect those chutes to look for anything suspicious. THAT was one of his first actions (priorities) witnessed by Tina and others; not cutting cord FIRST as Blevins states it. Cutting cord comes much later. And we know there were "issues" with the chutes McChord had planned to send. Cooper opened, inspected, and accepted the chutes brought in and given. We don't know if He commented and said anything technical to Tina about the chutes he was given and checking out ... there is nothing about that in the record so far. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #41555 July 12, 2013 georgerCooper opened, inspected, and accepted the chutes brought in and given. We don't know if He commented and said anything technical to Tina about the chutes he was given and checking out ... there is nothing about that in the record so far. Georger, Let me point out that your use of the term "opened" above does not mean that he pulled the rip cord and looked into the pack itself. If he did, he would NEVER get that thing repacked in that airliner cabin. Any inspection that Cooper made would probably just involve exposing the rip cord pins by unsnapping the flap covering them and checking that the rigger's seal was unbroken as well as checking the rigger's packing card. This is a routine "pre-flight" inspection for emergency parachutes, as opposed to being a "pre-jump" inspection. It doesn't require any skill and only very minimal training. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #41556 July 12, 2013 Robert99 ***Cooper opened, inspected, and accepted the chutes brought in and given. We don't know if He commented and said anything technical to Tina about the chutes he was given and checking out ... there is nothing about that in the record so far. Georger, Let me point out that your use of the term "opened" above does not mean that he pulled the rip cord and looked into the pack itself. If he did, he would NEVER get that thing repacked in that airliner cabin. Any inspection that Cooper made would probably just involve exposing the rip cord pins by unsnapping the flap covering them and checking that the rigger's seal was unbroken as well as checking the rigger's packing card. This is a routine "pre-flight" inspection for emergency parachutes, as opposed to being a "pre-jump" inspection. It doesn't require any skill and only very minimal training. Robert99 Quote Good point! Thanks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #41557 July 12, 2013 377 Georger wrote Quote As a general premise and sometime historian of this whole matter, I am interested in anyone showing that Cooper was trained at all - in anything! Professionals like Farflung have been here and evidently failed to see any clear signs of training and professionalism in Cooper's actions. There are two alleged facts that point to Cooper having parachute experience, but alas neither can be confirmed as accurate. 1. Cooper located and examined the packing card on the NB 8 rig. 2. Cooper donned the NB 8 rig with ease. Doesn't matter if it was actually an NB 6 for the purpose of this discussion. NB 8 rigs have a VERY well concealed packing card pocket. At the Portland symposium I challenged a non jumper to find it on my stock NB 8 and he was stumped. When I asked another to put the NB 8 on and fasten the straps he had a hell of a time figuring it out. The chest strap arrangement is confusing and even I had trouble the first time I encountered an NB 8. Can I get an amen Amazon? 377 Amen Brother 377 ( As an aside.. want to bet I could roll up the main lift webbing on an NB-6 or NB-8 and get it to go into the rather large clips as found on many chest mounted reserves that are supposed to clip onto the D-ring equipped harnesses we used to use back in the day??) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 20 #41558 July 12, 2013 Amazon wroteQuote( As an aside.. want to bet I could roll up the main lift webbing on an NB-6 or NB-8 and get it to go into the rather large clips as found on many chest mounted reserves that are supposed to clip onto the D-ring equipped harnesses we used to use back in the day??) I tried it Amazon, hoping to demo this at the Portland symposium, and it was a no go. NB 8 webbing even when rolled was too big to fit within my 60s vintage military chest reserve attachment clips. If the clips were just a bit bigger it might work. Catching any big salmon this season? Been some hot King Salmon bites 14 miles off the coast, SE of the Farallon Islands, big ones. Blue whales are wowing tourists in Monterey Bay. Many people don't know that they are the largest animal that has lived on Earth. Most think dinosaurs were way bigger. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #41559 July 12, 2013 RobertMBlevinsYeah...well...I get the idea it takes a minimum of training to even consider the idea you might be able to jump out the back of a moving jet at 175MPH and survive. I personally think that whomever Cooper was, there are two things you could say about him. First, he probably wasn't a civilian jumper. If he was, he might have gone for the sport model Pioneer. Second, the way he latched onto the NB-6/8 container makes me believe he learned whatever he knew about skydiving from the military. And he had already popped the one working front chute for those cords. I think at this point he already knew the dummy trainer was a non-starter, and this also leads me to believe he had no intention of even using a reserve, maybe because of the additional load he was already going to try jumping with, i.e. the money bag and briefcase. There is NO evidence to suggest that the hijacker intended to somehow tie the non-working reserve to himself. Blevins, You continue to make assumptions that are based on wild speculations only. Following is a discussion of some of them. It really doesn't take any specific training to make and survive an emergency parachute. The "minimum" training for such an action used to be "jump, count to 10, and pull the ripcord". Prior to the development of civilian sports parachutes, all skydiving jumps that I have heard about used surplus military equipment. It was cheap, good, and hogged by the jumpers on the west coast, which means we had a hard time finding equipment on the east coast. All of my jumps in the early 1960s used surplus military parachutes with a 28 foot canopy that had been modified to a "5-TU" configuration. When the main canopy didn't get the job done, then the military surplus 24 foot reserve canopy did. I speak from experience on this matter. So you can not claim that Cooper was a military trained jumper simply based of the fact that he was familiar with military equipment. And it has been pointed out numerous times on this thread, Cooper said that he did not want military parachutes from McChord. It may have been because it was widely known at that time that the military parachutes contained a radio beacon to help the Search and Rescue people locate the jumper. If Cooper didn't originally plan to use a reserve parachute then why did he specifically ask for two of them? This is evidence that he intended to use a reserve chute as part of a back/chest two chute rig. If he did jury-rig a chest chute to the harness, it was simply a last minute action rather than something he had planned to do from the outset. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #41560 July 12, 2013 RobertMBlevinsWell, yes...I have made some assumptions. But those assumptions are based on things the hijacker actually requested, or his actions, or things he said during the course of the hijacking. They are not 'wild speculations'. As I said, in the lack of other evidence, you have to look at what happened. Words from his mouth, his decisions, his actions, portions of the known evidence that can be verified. Sure, it's possible the hijacker somehow tied the non-working reserve to his chest. Maybe. It's just as possible he tossed it away for one of two reasons: In anger, or as a red herring for ground searches. If he actually stated he didn't WANT a military chute, or specifically a military chute from McChord, then why would he immediately choose the NB-6 as his jump vehicle? I think the reason he asked for multiple parachutes was to discourage the FBI from giving him ones that didn't work. Blevins, To answer your question, Cooper probably selected the NB-6 because he knew it didn't come from McChord, was packed by a civilian, etc. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 20 #41561 July 12, 2013 The smart thing he did to discourage sabotaged chutes was to request two of each. It gave the impression that he might force a crew member to jump. Sure wish we knew for sure whether Tina saw him remove the packing card from an NB 6 or NB 8. If Cooper did that without fumbling around then he very likely was familiar with that rig type. The money find drives me nuts. I cant figure it out. I stare at my Cooper twenty and wish I could cross examine it. They say money talks. This twenty has apparently taken the fifth. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #41562 July 12, 2013 377 Amazon wrote Quote ( As an aside.. want to bet I could roll up the main lift webbing on an NB-6 or NB-8 and get it to go into the rather large clips as found on many chest mounted reserves that are supposed to clip onto the D-ring equipped harnesses we used to use back in the day??) I tried it Amazon, hoping to demo this at the Portland symposium, and it was a no go. NB 8 webbing even when rolled was too big to fit within my 60s vintage military chest reserve attachment clips. If the clips were just a bit bigger it might work. Catching any big salmon this season? Been some hot King Salmon bites 14 miles off the coast, SE of the Farallon Islands, big ones. Blue whales are wowing tourists in Monterey Bay. Many people don't know that they are the largest animal that has lived on Earth. Most think dinosaurs were way bigger. 377 Depends on the snaps I bet.. but I have some huge ones on a couple of my belly warts.. others are smaller without the larger clips with wings off of the gate. mine use the older style hardware.. large wings. I have some that look like they were b-4 snaps.. no wings at all. Newer snaps fit smaller webbing and d-rings. Nope no salmon... just not up to doing all the stuff to get the boat ready... 1 heart surgery down... a couple more to go before the ticker will be in better shape to do stuff like that again. I may just go out on a charter when Bouy 10 opens.. let the kids do all the work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 20 #41563 July 12, 2013 Blevins wroteQuoteNo one at any of the dropzones ever fingered a suspect who panned out. That doesnt mean much. I know some DZs and clubs from that era who wouldnt have ratted out a fellow jumper even if he showed up with 200,000 in twenties a few days after the skyjack. He'd have to buy beer for the rest of his days though. It was a different scene in the late 60s and early 70s. No tandems. Very few if any outsiders at a DZ on any given weekend especially if it was in a rural area. Jumpers formed a very close knit group. It's different now. Not necessarily worse, just different. Can I get an amen from Guru and Airtwardo on this? 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrshutter45 21 #41564 July 12, 2013 377 Blevins wrote Quote No one at any of the dropzones ever fingered a suspect who panned out. That doesnt mean much. I know some DZs and clubs from that era who wouldnt have ratted out a fellow jumper even if he showed up with 200,000 in twenties a few days after the skyjack. He'd have to buy beer for the rest of his days though. It was a different scene in the late 60s and early 70s. No tandems. Very few if any outsiders at a DZ on any given weekend especially if it was in a rural area. Jumpers formed a very close knit group. It's different now. Not necessarily worse, just different. Can I get an amen from Guru and Airtwardo on this? 377 what you are saying might be true, but don't forget the ground can silence you much better. no long term beer tabs required "It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #41565 July 12, 2013 Quote Amen Brother 377 ( As an aside.. want to bet I could roll up the main lift webbing on an NB-6 or NB-8 and get it to go into the rather large clips as found on many chest mounted reserves that are supposed to clip onto the D-ring equipped harnesses we used to use back in the day??) Explain that in more detail - please for the novices on the thread. I found this very interesting - perhaps because I don't have a damn clue what you are talking about.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #41566 July 12, 2013 Yeah...well... According to FBI transcripts, by the time that Mucklow delivered the last of the back chutes, the hijacker was already busy cutting cords and wrapping the bag. Quote Yea well .... I dont know what Transcripts you are reading? Must be the same Transcripts that came with your Palmer Report you claim to have? Here's the actual timeline from the Transcripts I have, Sham Wow Blevins! 5:30pm t1 Everything has arrived. Al Lee on way to meet on runway. (Transcript) 5:47pm t1 305 has landed. Cooper goes to hide in Lavatory. HE WILL NOT ALLOW ANYONE ELSE BUT HER TO BRING THE CHUTES ON. SHE WILL MAKE FOUR TRIPS. HE UNDERSTANDS THAT – THIS IS HIS REQUEST. (Transcript) 5:59 - 6:59 (15:59 – 18:59 PST) The transcripts do not have “Time Stamps” for this period, so all information from this period is presented together. During this 1 hour period there was a lot of communication with SEA GRND and others who were involved with the refueling, exchange (release) of passengers, exchange of parachutes and exchange of the ransom money. (Sluggo Timeline) Hancock was allowed back in to retreive her purse. Hancock and Mucklow report Cooper first inspected the money brought on board and was excited, offered some to Tina, then turned his attention to the parchutes and briefly inspected them, engaged Mucklow in conversation about some instruction sheet for one of the chutes, inspected the chutes further, then selected one and put it on "easily". (Ckret posts) 6:59 - 7:34 Cooper sitting with Mucklow irate about fueling delays and looking out the window. Discussions about route and rear stairs doors opening at take off ... finally demanded "Get the show on the road"... (Transcript & Sluggo) 7:22 (19:22 PST) Cooper says; “Get the plane on the road”. (Transcript) 7:34 (19:33 PST) Flt 305 takes off (Transcpt) 7:41 NWA - Stewardess Mucklow allowed to go to cockpit. Stops & turns at curtain and watches Cooper now tying the bag around his waste. (Transcript) 7:42 NWA - HJ advised by inter-phone that he was having difficulty getting steps down. (Transcript) Note* There is nothing in the Transcripts about Mucklow seeing Cooper cut cord from any chute or a firm timeline for when he did that, between the long period from 5:47 - 7:41 when Muckow last saw Cooper. You did not get this from the Trascripts because it isn't there! You just made it up or you have another source ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 20 #41567 July 12, 2013 skyjack71 Quote Amen Brother 377 ( As an aside.. want to bet I could roll up the main lift webbing on an NB-6 or NB-8 and get it to go into the rather large clips as found on many chest mounted reserves that are supposed to clip onto the D-ring equipped harnesses we used to use back in the day??) Explain that in more detail - please for the novices on the thread. I found this very interesting - perhaps because I don't have a damn clue what you are talking about. Jo, It's all about whether you could use the chest mount reserve attachment clips to attach the reserve to the main harness without clipping to D rings. There were no D rings on Coopers main rigs so Amazon was speculating about whether the reserve clips could just be attached on the nylon webbing of the main chute harness. I was unable to do this, the webbing volume was too large, but Amazon says that she has seen larger reserve clips that may have been able to clip into the main harness webbing successfully. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #41568 July 12, 2013 377The smart thing he did to discourage sabotaged chutes was to request two of each. It gave the impression that he might force a crew member to jump. Sure wish we knew for sure whether Tina saw him remove the packing card from an NB 6 or NB 8. If Cooper did that without fumbling around then he very likely was familiar with that rig type. The money find drives me nuts. I cant figure it out. I stare at my Cooper twenty and wish I could cross examine it. They say money talks. This twenty has apparently taken the fifth. 377 Apparently Cooper was NOT looking for a packing card. He was searching for any devices that might have been concealed. What was in the paper bag Cooper carried on with him? Perhaps he was expecting to need devices to attach things! He had the brief case and he would need to take that because his prints would be all over it (or maybe he did NOt expect to survive). So holding on to a brief case - just how was he going to transport the money. It did NOT arrive in the Knapsack he requested...note that Cooper was agitated by this request not being filled. Also not Tina commented about an item in the brief case - that has LONG LONG been ignored. I will let you guys do the research and state whatever you think it was, but there are those who already know what it was. It has been puzzling WHY you guys ignored this one little item all of these yrs. Most of you have gotten lost in the technical aspects and forgot what was ACTUALLY seen and HOW Cooper reacted to situtuation aboard the plane. Cooper checked the chutes over only because he expected tampering. Where the card was is an excellent place to put some kind of device. Some individuals can make something from basically nothing - that is just how they are. I think Cooper used whatever he had to work for him. Perhaps the battery in the brief case had a dual purpose - a power source for something he may have had strapped on his body. Perhaps Cooper was so distraught about his life - that it was a DO or DIE things. He just didn't care one way or the other. Most of you do NOT seem to focus on the basics and his reactions to Tina. NOT one of you seem to remember he was UPSET about there being NO knapsack - so what did he do about that and how did the crew (Tina) accomodate him regarding this. There WERE things on the plane in the overhead compartments and under the seat. Did planes had overhead compartments in 1971? Do any of you know if the plane used by Cooper had OVERHEAD compartments? So if there were NO overhangs where did the stews stow their stuff. The stews traveled very lightly as they some times did not stay with the flight. In 1971 - how many of you saw what the stewardesses used for their overnight bags? Did we have roll ons in 1971. Frankly I don't remember because the only plane I had been in prior to 1971 was a small private plane. Why don't some of you who KNOW elaborate on the items carried on to planes in 1971. I think you will find yourselves asking yourself a LOT of Stupid questions about Cooper's actions. The only resources available to Cooper would indicate military or smoke jumping experience or perhaps exposure by way of packing, drug runners, covert actions, plane thefts, transporting of illegal things to and from...this list is not a large list (but Intermountain Communications used a lot of guys who had NO choices left in LIFE)...guys paid if they survived a good sum of money in CASH. Most of the guys were dispensible - as that is how ex-cons where viewed in the day!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #41569 July 12, 2013 RobertMBlevins I don't remember putting any timestamps on anything. Page 72, Skyjack, talks about Cooper popping the reserve and cutting lines. According to Gray, Mucklow watches him as he does it. When I said 'transcripts' I should have said 'witness reports'. Gray based much of his book (the parts about what actually went on inside the plane during the hijacking) on his viewing of the witness reports by the stews, passengers, etc. Quote You are always misquoting .... Gray doesnt give any source either ... Quote the passage in Gray. I wonder if it even says what you claim ... All of this goes to your original piece of boilerplate that cutting cord was a first priority on Cooper's part - which is wasn't. So you have made stuff up no matter how this goes - Some people think Cooper would not have opened the chutes at all to look at them were it not for Tina first presenting Cossey's instruction sheet to Cooper which seemed to cause Cooper to pause and think . . . there is no question what happened first in that order of events. Lastly, there is no point in continuing this melodrama you keep spinning. Youve done it since day-1 when you came here peddling KC writing you damned book, and you are still doing it. And you will continue to do it to the bitter end - - - You are what you are. A spin artist. It's pointless to even try to combat htis further. Have a nice lying day. You even knew before posting that you were relying on Gray and not the Transcripts but you went ahead and omitted any mention of Gray and said Transcripts instead! Next you will be quoting ... yourself. You wont need Gray or Dropzone. That is where you are headed! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #41570 July 12, 2013 georger Yeah...well... According to FBI transcripts, by the time that Mucklow delivered the last of the back chutes, the hijacker was already busy cutting cords and wrapping the bag. Quote Yea well .... I dont know what Transcripts you are reading? Must be the same Transcripts that came with your Palmer Report you claim to have? Here's the actual timeline from the Transcripts I have, Sham Wow Blevins! 5:30pm t1 Everything has arrived. Al Lee on way to meet on runway. (Transcript) 5:47pm t1 305 has landed. Cooper goes to hide in Lavatory. HE WILL NOT ALLOW ANYONE ELSE BUT HER TO BRING THE CHUTES ON. SHE WILL MAKE FOUR TRIPS. HE UNDERSTANDS THAT – THIS IS HIS REQUEST. (Transcript) 5:59 - 6:59 (15:59 – 18:59 PST) The transcripts do not have “Time Stamps” for this period, so all information from this period is presented together. During this 1 hour period there was a lot of communication with SEA GRND and others who were involved with the refueling, exchange (release) of passengers, exchange of parachutes and exchange of the ransom money. (Sluggo Timeline) Hancock was allowed back in to retreive her purse. Hancock and Mucklow report Cooper first inspected the money brought on board and was excited, offered some to Tina, then turned his attention to the parchutes and briefly inspected them, engaged Mucklow in conversation about some instruction sheet for one of the chutes, inspected the chutes further, then selected one and put it on "easily". (Ckret posts) 6:59 - 7:34 Cooper sitting with Mucklow irate about fueling delays and looking out the window. Discussions about route and rear stairs doors opening at take off ... finally demanded "Get the show on the road"... (Transcript & Sluggo) 7:22 (19:22 PST) Cooper says; “Get the plane on the road”. (Transcript) 7:34 (19:33 PST) Flt 305 takes off (Transcpt) 7:41 NWA - Stewardess Mucklow allowed to go to cockpit. Stops & turns at curtain and watches Cooper now tying the bag around his waste. (Transcript) 7:42 NWA - HJ advised by inter-phone that he was having difficulty getting steps down. (Transcript) Note* There is nothing in the Transcripts about Mucklow seeing Cooper cut cord from any chute or a firm timeline for when he did that, between the long period from 5:47 - 7:41 when Muckow last saw Cooper. You did not get this from the Trascripts because it isn't there! You just made it up or you have another source ? Well, those transcripts are missing a vital steps in the process - the process in which the passengers where allowed to DEPLANE - Where is the conversation that took place between Tina and Cooper during this time frame? "We all have a little larcency in our hearts". Duane's ex used to say that all of the time - strange that was also the expression used by Clara the featured woman in Max Gunther's book! Also note the one song Duane did so well was "You'll Never Know" Would have been wonderful if there was Caller Id when Clara was calling Max - this case would have closed when Max revealed his conversations with Clara to the FBICopyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #41571 July 13, 2013 skyjack71 Quote Amen Brother 377 ( As an aside.. want to bet I could roll up the main lift webbing on an NB-6 or NB-8 and get it to go into the rather large clips as found on many chest mounted reserves that are supposed to clip onto the D-ring equipped harnesses we used to use back in the day??) Explain that in more detail - please for the novices on the thread. I found this very interesting - perhaps because I don't have a damn clue what you are talking about. If you roll the nylon webbing harness material it does not take up much room.. especially well worn sport rigs that are very supple. I will get piccies Jo... I was just curious and speculating. I was diging thru tub after tub after Tub of parachutes and harnesses from the 1950-60-1970's last weekend. I found my NB-6... and found some of my belly warts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #41572 July 13, 2013 skyjack71*** Yeah...well... According to FBI transcripts, by the time that Mucklow delivered the last of the back chutes, the hijacker was already busy cutting cords and wrapping the bag. Quote Yea well .... I dont know what Transcripts you are reading? Must be the same Transcripts that came with your Palmer Report you claim to have? Here's the actual timeline from the Transcripts I have, Sham Wow Blevins! 5:30pm t1 Everything has arrived. Al Lee on way to meet on runway. (Transcript) 5:47pm t1 305 has landed. Cooper goes to hide in Lavatory. HE WILL NOT ALLOW ANYONE ELSE BUT HER TO BRING THE CHUTES ON. SHE WILL MAKE FOUR TRIPS. HE UNDERSTANDS THAT – THIS IS HIS REQUEST. (Transcript) 5:59 - 6:59 (15:59 – 18:59 PST) The transcripts do not have “Time Stamps” for this period, so all information from this period is presented together. During this 1 hour period there was a lot of communication with SEA GRND and others who were involved with the refueling, exchange (release) of passengers, exchange of parachutes and exchange of the ransom money. (Sluggo Timeline) Hancock was allowed back in to retreive her purse. Hancock and Mucklow report Cooper first inspected the money brought on board and was excited, offered some to Tina, then turned his attention to the parchutes and briefly inspected them, engaged Mucklow in conversation about some instruction sheet for one of the chutes, inspected the chutes further, then selected one and put it on "easily". (Ckret posts) 6:59 - 7:34 Cooper sitting with Mucklow irate about fueling delays and looking out the window. Discussions about route and rear stairs doors opening at take off ... finally demanded "Get the show on the road"... (Transcript & Sluggo) 7:22 (19:22 PST) Cooper says; “Get the plane on the road”. (Transcript) 7:34 (19:33 PST) Flt 305 takes off (Transcpt) 7:41 NWA - Stewardess Mucklow allowed to go to cockpit. Stops & turns at curtain and watches Cooper now tying the bag around his waste. (Transcript) 7:42 NWA - HJ advised by inter-phone that he was having difficulty getting steps down. (Transcript) Note* There is nothing in the Transcripts about Mucklow seeing Cooper cut cord from any chute or a firm timeline for when he did that, between the long period from 5:47 - 7:41 when Muckow last saw Cooper. You did not get this from the Trascripts because it isn't there! You just made it up or you have another source ? Well, those transcripts are missing a vital steps in the process - the process in which the passengers where allowed to DEPLANE - Where is the conversation that took place between Tina and Cooper during this time frame? "We all have a little larcency in our hearts". Duane's ex used to say that all of the time - strange that was also the expression used by Clara the featured woman in Max Gunther's book! Also note the one song Duane did so well was "You'll Never Know" Would have been wonderful if there was Caller Id when Clara was calling Max - this case would have closed when Max revealed his conversations with Clara to the FBIQuote Thats was Blevin's remarks NOT MINE! Learn to reed. "Yeah...well... According to FBI transcripts, by the time that Mucklow delivered the last of the back chutes, the hijacker was already busy cutting cords and wrapping the bag. " Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ParrotheadVol 70 #41573 July 13, 2013 RobertMBlevins The Spokesman-Review published an article about ten days after the hijacking. Was the FBI already hitting the bricks at the DZ's? I say yes. See picture. Wow. That's an amazing likeness. I'd bet money though, that if we ever find out who Cooper was, none of those drawings are going be even close to accurate. Moot point though. I'd be shocked if this is ever solved."They were saying he was never gonna make it now, now that daylight had set in. But later that night, they were shining those lights back down on that mountain again." - Todd Snider Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ParrotheadVol 70 #41574 July 13, 2013 About Christiansen: 1. Why would he ask for "negotiable American currency"? 2. The Money At Tena Bar: If KC was Cooper, he obviously got away with and used the money. So losing the money and it washing up at Tena Bar isn't plausible. He was already spending the money fairly soon after the crime, so probably didn't still have 3 bundles to go and "plant" years later at Tena Bar. He may have still had money in accounts, investments or whatever. But still holding on to the original loot? I doubt it. The Tena Bar money, in my opinion, is a huge obsticle to anyone promoting Christiansen as Cooper. I too, am curious about the dummy chute. Probably not very important to the case, but one does wonder about its fate."They were saying he was never gonna make it now, now that daylight had set in. But later that night, they were shining those lights back down on that mountain again." - Todd Snider Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #41575 July 13, 2013 RobertMBlevins******Well, yes...I have made some assumptions. But those assumptions are based on things the hijacker actually requested, or his actions, or things he said during the course of the hijacking. They are not 'wild speculations'. As I said, in the lack of other evidence, you have to look at what happened. Words from his mouth, his decisions, his actions, portions of the known evidence that can be verified. Sure, it's possible the hijacker somehow tied the non-working reserve to his chest. Maybe. It's just as possible he tossed it away for one of two reasons: In anger, or as a red herring for ground searches. If he actually stated he didn't WANT a military chute, or specifically a military chute from McChord, then why would he immediately choose the NB-6 as his jump vehicle? I think the reason he asked for multiple parachutes was to discourage the FBI from giving him ones that didn't work. Blevins, To answer your question, Cooper probably selected the NB-6 because he knew it didn't come from McChord, was packed by a civilian, etc. Robert99 Same thing can be said for the Pioneer. But he didn't choose that one. Look...what about this. We know Cooper got the front chutes first, and had a chance to inspect them while Tina was busy with bringing the others on board. Why did he choose to pop the one that worked? Was it guesswork, i.e. he assumes both work and by chance picks the one that will open to cut cords from it? Or...did he check both first, realize one was a no-go, and pop the one that did work? No one knows this. But...if he did discover one was a non-starter and he pops the other one anyway for the cord...then you can safely assume he wasn't planning on using a reserve. If he were, he would have NOT popped the working reserve. He would have waited for the back chutes to come aboard and then selected one of THOSE to cut cord from. When you look at his actions when the back chutes arrive, i.e. immediately selecting the NB-6 over the Pioneer and checking the card, it makes you believe he knew what he was doing. You've made some assumptions, too. For example, you say that it was common knowledge that Search and Rescue radio beacons were used in military chutes in 1971. But how do you know when the last time was the hijacker ever used a parachute? Did he say he didn't want chutes out of McChord because they might have radio beacons? I have not heard this. In addition, the FBI heavily investigated both local and non-local dropzones and came up empty. I think if Cooper was a regular at any civilian DZ, the FBI would have gotten a lead on him sooner or later. This was a major part of the investigation for years. And Cooper was allegedly in his mid-40's, with a sketch out there as famous as the Mona Lisa. This sounds more like a guy who hadn't jumped in a long time, and certainly was not a regular at any dropzone, otherwise someone would have remembered him. So assuming he knew of the radio beacons in 1971 is a BIG assumption, unless the hijacker said so specifically. One of the biggest problems with Cooper being a civilian jumper is quite simple. No one at any of the dropzones ever fingered a suspect who panned out. If he wasn't a civilian skydiver, then where did he learn how to use one? Blevins, Stop the bullshit! As has already been explained to you today as well as in previous posts, Cooper specifically did not want a parachute from McChord. He didn't say he didn't want a military parachute. In 1971, it was common knowledge that military parachutes were being equipped with radio beacons so that Search and Rescue aircraft could locate and recover the crewmen. It doesn't make any difference if Cooper had ever jumped before, all he had to do was read the newspapers to know about the radio beacons. Presumably, you are aware that there was a war going on in Southeast Asia in 1971. At least it was so reported on TV and in all the newspapers where I lived. As I have already told you several times today, if Cooper had any sky diving experience during the 1960s, it was probably with surplus military parachutes. But in reality, there is no particular evidence to prove that Cooper had ever jumped. I believe it was Ckret who pointed out that Cooper may have been a kicker or load master on military or OGO aircraft with only superficial knowledge of parachuting. So stop trying to make another KC story out of a trivial piece of information. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1658 1659 1660 1661 1662 1663 1664 1665 1666 1667 1668 Next Page 1663 of 2541 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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377 20 #41567 July 12, 2013 skyjack71 Quote Amen Brother 377 ( As an aside.. want to bet I could roll up the main lift webbing on an NB-6 or NB-8 and get it to go into the rather large clips as found on many chest mounted reserves that are supposed to clip onto the D-ring equipped harnesses we used to use back in the day??) Explain that in more detail - please for the novices on the thread. I found this very interesting - perhaps because I don't have a damn clue what you are talking about. Jo, It's all about whether you could use the chest mount reserve attachment clips to attach the reserve to the main harness without clipping to D rings. There were no D rings on Coopers main rigs so Amazon was speculating about whether the reserve clips could just be attached on the nylon webbing of the main chute harness. I was unable to do this, the webbing volume was too large, but Amazon says that she has seen larger reserve clips that may have been able to clip into the main harness webbing successfully. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #41568 July 12, 2013 377The smart thing he did to discourage sabotaged chutes was to request two of each. It gave the impression that he might force a crew member to jump. Sure wish we knew for sure whether Tina saw him remove the packing card from an NB 6 or NB 8. If Cooper did that without fumbling around then he very likely was familiar with that rig type. The money find drives me nuts. I cant figure it out. I stare at my Cooper twenty and wish I could cross examine it. They say money talks. This twenty has apparently taken the fifth. 377 Apparently Cooper was NOT looking for a packing card. He was searching for any devices that might have been concealed. What was in the paper bag Cooper carried on with him? Perhaps he was expecting to need devices to attach things! He had the brief case and he would need to take that because his prints would be all over it (or maybe he did NOt expect to survive). So holding on to a brief case - just how was he going to transport the money. It did NOT arrive in the Knapsack he requested...note that Cooper was agitated by this request not being filled. Also not Tina commented about an item in the brief case - that has LONG LONG been ignored. I will let you guys do the research and state whatever you think it was, but there are those who already know what it was. It has been puzzling WHY you guys ignored this one little item all of these yrs. Most of you have gotten lost in the technical aspects and forgot what was ACTUALLY seen and HOW Cooper reacted to situtuation aboard the plane. Cooper checked the chutes over only because he expected tampering. Where the card was is an excellent place to put some kind of device. Some individuals can make something from basically nothing - that is just how they are. I think Cooper used whatever he had to work for him. Perhaps the battery in the brief case had a dual purpose - a power source for something he may have had strapped on his body. Perhaps Cooper was so distraught about his life - that it was a DO or DIE things. He just didn't care one way or the other. Most of you do NOT seem to focus on the basics and his reactions to Tina. NOT one of you seem to remember he was UPSET about there being NO knapsack - so what did he do about that and how did the crew (Tina) accomodate him regarding this. There WERE things on the plane in the overhead compartments and under the seat. Did planes had overhead compartments in 1971? Do any of you know if the plane used by Cooper had OVERHEAD compartments? So if there were NO overhangs where did the stews stow their stuff. The stews traveled very lightly as they some times did not stay with the flight. In 1971 - how many of you saw what the stewardesses used for their overnight bags? Did we have roll ons in 1971. Frankly I don't remember because the only plane I had been in prior to 1971 was a small private plane. Why don't some of you who KNOW elaborate on the items carried on to planes in 1971. I think you will find yourselves asking yourself a LOT of Stupid questions about Cooper's actions. The only resources available to Cooper would indicate military or smoke jumping experience or perhaps exposure by way of packing, drug runners, covert actions, plane thefts, transporting of illegal things to and from...this list is not a large list (but Intermountain Communications used a lot of guys who had NO choices left in LIFE)...guys paid if they survived a good sum of money in CASH. Most of the guys were dispensible - as that is how ex-cons where viewed in the day!Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #41569 July 12, 2013 RobertMBlevins I don't remember putting any timestamps on anything. Page 72, Skyjack, talks about Cooper popping the reserve and cutting lines. According to Gray, Mucklow watches him as he does it. When I said 'transcripts' I should have said 'witness reports'. Gray based much of his book (the parts about what actually went on inside the plane during the hijacking) on his viewing of the witness reports by the stews, passengers, etc. Quote You are always misquoting .... Gray doesnt give any source either ... Quote the passage in Gray. I wonder if it even says what you claim ... All of this goes to your original piece of boilerplate that cutting cord was a first priority on Cooper's part - which is wasn't. So you have made stuff up no matter how this goes - Some people think Cooper would not have opened the chutes at all to look at them were it not for Tina first presenting Cossey's instruction sheet to Cooper which seemed to cause Cooper to pause and think . . . there is no question what happened first in that order of events. Lastly, there is no point in continuing this melodrama you keep spinning. Youve done it since day-1 when you came here peddling KC writing you damned book, and you are still doing it. And you will continue to do it to the bitter end - - - You are what you are. A spin artist. It's pointless to even try to combat htis further. Have a nice lying day. You even knew before posting that you were relying on Gray and not the Transcripts but you went ahead and omitted any mention of Gray and said Transcripts instead! Next you will be quoting ... yourself. You wont need Gray or Dropzone. That is where you are headed! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #41570 July 12, 2013 georger Yeah...well... According to FBI transcripts, by the time that Mucklow delivered the last of the back chutes, the hijacker was already busy cutting cords and wrapping the bag. Quote Yea well .... I dont know what Transcripts you are reading? Must be the same Transcripts that came with your Palmer Report you claim to have? Here's the actual timeline from the Transcripts I have, Sham Wow Blevins! 5:30pm t1 Everything has arrived. Al Lee on way to meet on runway. (Transcript) 5:47pm t1 305 has landed. Cooper goes to hide in Lavatory. HE WILL NOT ALLOW ANYONE ELSE BUT HER TO BRING THE CHUTES ON. SHE WILL MAKE FOUR TRIPS. HE UNDERSTANDS THAT – THIS IS HIS REQUEST. (Transcript) 5:59 - 6:59 (15:59 – 18:59 PST) The transcripts do not have “Time Stamps” for this period, so all information from this period is presented together. During this 1 hour period there was a lot of communication with SEA GRND and others who were involved with the refueling, exchange (release) of passengers, exchange of parachutes and exchange of the ransom money. (Sluggo Timeline) Hancock was allowed back in to retreive her purse. Hancock and Mucklow report Cooper first inspected the money brought on board and was excited, offered some to Tina, then turned his attention to the parchutes and briefly inspected them, engaged Mucklow in conversation about some instruction sheet for one of the chutes, inspected the chutes further, then selected one and put it on "easily". (Ckret posts) 6:59 - 7:34 Cooper sitting with Mucklow irate about fueling delays and looking out the window. Discussions about route and rear stairs doors opening at take off ... finally demanded "Get the show on the road"... (Transcript & Sluggo) 7:22 (19:22 PST) Cooper says; “Get the plane on the road”. (Transcript) 7:34 (19:33 PST) Flt 305 takes off (Transcpt) 7:41 NWA - Stewardess Mucklow allowed to go to cockpit. Stops & turns at curtain and watches Cooper now tying the bag around his waste. (Transcript) 7:42 NWA - HJ advised by inter-phone that he was having difficulty getting steps down. (Transcript) Note* There is nothing in the Transcripts about Mucklow seeing Cooper cut cord from any chute or a firm timeline for when he did that, between the long period from 5:47 - 7:41 when Muckow last saw Cooper. You did not get this from the Trascripts because it isn't there! You just made it up or you have another source ? Well, those transcripts are missing a vital steps in the process - the process in which the passengers where allowed to DEPLANE - Where is the conversation that took place between Tina and Cooper during this time frame? "We all have a little larcency in our hearts". Duane's ex used to say that all of the time - strange that was also the expression used by Clara the featured woman in Max Gunther's book! Also note the one song Duane did so well was "You'll Never Know" Would have been wonderful if there was Caller Id when Clara was calling Max - this case would have closed when Max revealed his conversations with Clara to the FBICopyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #41571 July 13, 2013 skyjack71 Quote Amen Brother 377 ( As an aside.. want to bet I could roll up the main lift webbing on an NB-6 or NB-8 and get it to go into the rather large clips as found on many chest mounted reserves that are supposed to clip onto the D-ring equipped harnesses we used to use back in the day??) Explain that in more detail - please for the novices on the thread. I found this very interesting - perhaps because I don't have a damn clue what you are talking about. If you roll the nylon webbing harness material it does not take up much room.. especially well worn sport rigs that are very supple. I will get piccies Jo... I was just curious and speculating. I was diging thru tub after tub after Tub of parachutes and harnesses from the 1950-60-1970's last weekend. I found my NB-6... and found some of my belly warts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #41572 July 13, 2013 skyjack71*** Yeah...well... According to FBI transcripts, by the time that Mucklow delivered the last of the back chutes, the hijacker was already busy cutting cords and wrapping the bag. Quote Yea well .... I dont know what Transcripts you are reading? Must be the same Transcripts that came with your Palmer Report you claim to have? Here's the actual timeline from the Transcripts I have, Sham Wow Blevins! 5:30pm t1 Everything has arrived. Al Lee on way to meet on runway. (Transcript) 5:47pm t1 305 has landed. Cooper goes to hide in Lavatory. HE WILL NOT ALLOW ANYONE ELSE BUT HER TO BRING THE CHUTES ON. SHE WILL MAKE FOUR TRIPS. HE UNDERSTANDS THAT – THIS IS HIS REQUEST. (Transcript) 5:59 - 6:59 (15:59 – 18:59 PST) The transcripts do not have “Time Stamps” for this period, so all information from this period is presented together. During this 1 hour period there was a lot of communication with SEA GRND and others who were involved with the refueling, exchange (release) of passengers, exchange of parachutes and exchange of the ransom money. (Sluggo Timeline) Hancock was allowed back in to retreive her purse. Hancock and Mucklow report Cooper first inspected the money brought on board and was excited, offered some to Tina, then turned his attention to the parchutes and briefly inspected them, engaged Mucklow in conversation about some instruction sheet for one of the chutes, inspected the chutes further, then selected one and put it on "easily". (Ckret posts) 6:59 - 7:34 Cooper sitting with Mucklow irate about fueling delays and looking out the window. Discussions about route and rear stairs doors opening at take off ... finally demanded "Get the show on the road"... (Transcript & Sluggo) 7:22 (19:22 PST) Cooper says; “Get the plane on the road”. (Transcript) 7:34 (19:33 PST) Flt 305 takes off (Transcpt) 7:41 NWA - Stewardess Mucklow allowed to go to cockpit. Stops & turns at curtain and watches Cooper now tying the bag around his waste. (Transcript) 7:42 NWA - HJ advised by inter-phone that he was having difficulty getting steps down. (Transcript) Note* There is nothing in the Transcripts about Mucklow seeing Cooper cut cord from any chute or a firm timeline for when he did that, between the long period from 5:47 - 7:41 when Muckow last saw Cooper. You did not get this from the Trascripts because it isn't there! You just made it up or you have another source ? Well, those transcripts are missing a vital steps in the process - the process in which the passengers where allowed to DEPLANE - Where is the conversation that took place between Tina and Cooper during this time frame? "We all have a little larcency in our hearts". Duane's ex used to say that all of the time - strange that was also the expression used by Clara the featured woman in Max Gunther's book! Also note the one song Duane did so well was "You'll Never Know" Would have been wonderful if there was Caller Id when Clara was calling Max - this case would have closed when Max revealed his conversations with Clara to the FBIQuote Thats was Blevin's remarks NOT MINE! Learn to reed. "Yeah...well... According to FBI transcripts, by the time that Mucklow delivered the last of the back chutes, the hijacker was already busy cutting cords and wrapping the bag. " Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ParrotheadVol 70 #41573 July 13, 2013 RobertMBlevins The Spokesman-Review published an article about ten days after the hijacking. Was the FBI already hitting the bricks at the DZ's? I say yes. See picture. Wow. That's an amazing likeness. I'd bet money though, that if we ever find out who Cooper was, none of those drawings are going be even close to accurate. Moot point though. I'd be shocked if this is ever solved."They were saying he was never gonna make it now, now that daylight had set in. But later that night, they were shining those lights back down on that mountain again." - Todd Snider Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ParrotheadVol 70 #41574 July 13, 2013 About Christiansen: 1. Why would he ask for "negotiable American currency"? 2. The Money At Tena Bar: If KC was Cooper, he obviously got away with and used the money. So losing the money and it washing up at Tena Bar isn't plausible. He was already spending the money fairly soon after the crime, so probably didn't still have 3 bundles to go and "plant" years later at Tena Bar. He may have still had money in accounts, investments or whatever. But still holding on to the original loot? I doubt it. The Tena Bar money, in my opinion, is a huge obsticle to anyone promoting Christiansen as Cooper. I too, am curious about the dummy chute. Probably not very important to the case, but one does wonder about its fate."They were saying he was never gonna make it now, now that daylight had set in. But later that night, they were shining those lights back down on that mountain again." - Todd Snider Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #41575 July 13, 2013 RobertMBlevins******Well, yes...I have made some assumptions. But those assumptions are based on things the hijacker actually requested, or his actions, or things he said during the course of the hijacking. They are not 'wild speculations'. As I said, in the lack of other evidence, you have to look at what happened. Words from his mouth, his decisions, his actions, portions of the known evidence that can be verified. Sure, it's possible the hijacker somehow tied the non-working reserve to his chest. Maybe. It's just as possible he tossed it away for one of two reasons: In anger, or as a red herring for ground searches. If he actually stated he didn't WANT a military chute, or specifically a military chute from McChord, then why would he immediately choose the NB-6 as his jump vehicle? I think the reason he asked for multiple parachutes was to discourage the FBI from giving him ones that didn't work. Blevins, To answer your question, Cooper probably selected the NB-6 because he knew it didn't come from McChord, was packed by a civilian, etc. Robert99 Same thing can be said for the Pioneer. But he didn't choose that one. Look...what about this. We know Cooper got the front chutes first, and had a chance to inspect them while Tina was busy with bringing the others on board. Why did he choose to pop the one that worked? Was it guesswork, i.e. he assumes both work and by chance picks the one that will open to cut cords from it? Or...did he check both first, realize one was a no-go, and pop the one that did work? No one knows this. But...if he did discover one was a non-starter and he pops the other one anyway for the cord...then you can safely assume he wasn't planning on using a reserve. If he were, he would have NOT popped the working reserve. He would have waited for the back chutes to come aboard and then selected one of THOSE to cut cord from. When you look at his actions when the back chutes arrive, i.e. immediately selecting the NB-6 over the Pioneer and checking the card, it makes you believe he knew what he was doing. You've made some assumptions, too. For example, you say that it was common knowledge that Search and Rescue radio beacons were used in military chutes in 1971. But how do you know when the last time was the hijacker ever used a parachute? Did he say he didn't want chutes out of McChord because they might have radio beacons? I have not heard this. In addition, the FBI heavily investigated both local and non-local dropzones and came up empty. I think if Cooper was a regular at any civilian DZ, the FBI would have gotten a lead on him sooner or later. This was a major part of the investigation for years. And Cooper was allegedly in his mid-40's, with a sketch out there as famous as the Mona Lisa. This sounds more like a guy who hadn't jumped in a long time, and certainly was not a regular at any dropzone, otherwise someone would have remembered him. So assuming he knew of the radio beacons in 1971 is a BIG assumption, unless the hijacker said so specifically. One of the biggest problems with Cooper being a civilian jumper is quite simple. No one at any of the dropzones ever fingered a suspect who panned out. If he wasn't a civilian skydiver, then where did he learn how to use one? Blevins, Stop the bullshit! As has already been explained to you today as well as in previous posts, Cooper specifically did not want a parachute from McChord. He didn't say he didn't want a military parachute. In 1971, it was common knowledge that military parachutes were being equipped with radio beacons so that Search and Rescue aircraft could locate and recover the crewmen. It doesn't make any difference if Cooper had ever jumped before, all he had to do was read the newspapers to know about the radio beacons. Presumably, you are aware that there was a war going on in Southeast Asia in 1971. At least it was so reported on TV and in all the newspapers where I lived. As I have already told you several times today, if Cooper had any sky diving experience during the 1960s, it was probably with surplus military parachutes. But in reality, there is no particular evidence to prove that Cooper had ever jumped. I believe it was Ckret who pointed out that Cooper may have been a kicker or load master on military or OGO aircraft with only superficial knowledge of parachuting. So stop trying to make another KC story out of a trivial piece of information. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1658 1659 1660 1661 1662 1663 1664 1665 1666 1667 1668 Next Page 1663 of 2541 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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Amazon 7 #41571 July 13, 2013 skyjack71 Quote Amen Brother 377 ( As an aside.. want to bet I could roll up the main lift webbing on an NB-6 or NB-8 and get it to go into the rather large clips as found on many chest mounted reserves that are supposed to clip onto the D-ring equipped harnesses we used to use back in the day??) Explain that in more detail - please for the novices on the thread. I found this very interesting - perhaps because I don't have a damn clue what you are talking about. If you roll the nylon webbing harness material it does not take up much room.. especially well worn sport rigs that are very supple. I will get piccies Jo... I was just curious and speculating. I was diging thru tub after tub after Tub of parachutes and harnesses from the 1950-60-1970's last weekend. I found my NB-6... and found some of my belly warts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #41572 July 13, 2013 skyjack71*** Yeah...well... According to FBI transcripts, by the time that Mucklow delivered the last of the back chutes, the hijacker was already busy cutting cords and wrapping the bag. Quote Yea well .... I dont know what Transcripts you are reading? Must be the same Transcripts that came with your Palmer Report you claim to have? Here's the actual timeline from the Transcripts I have, Sham Wow Blevins! 5:30pm t1 Everything has arrived. Al Lee on way to meet on runway. (Transcript) 5:47pm t1 305 has landed. Cooper goes to hide in Lavatory. HE WILL NOT ALLOW ANYONE ELSE BUT HER TO BRING THE CHUTES ON. SHE WILL MAKE FOUR TRIPS. HE UNDERSTANDS THAT – THIS IS HIS REQUEST. (Transcript) 5:59 - 6:59 (15:59 – 18:59 PST) The transcripts do not have “Time Stamps” for this period, so all information from this period is presented together. During this 1 hour period there was a lot of communication with SEA GRND and others who were involved with the refueling, exchange (release) of passengers, exchange of parachutes and exchange of the ransom money. (Sluggo Timeline) Hancock was allowed back in to retreive her purse. Hancock and Mucklow report Cooper first inspected the money brought on board and was excited, offered some to Tina, then turned his attention to the parchutes and briefly inspected them, engaged Mucklow in conversation about some instruction sheet for one of the chutes, inspected the chutes further, then selected one and put it on "easily". (Ckret posts) 6:59 - 7:34 Cooper sitting with Mucklow irate about fueling delays and looking out the window. Discussions about route and rear stairs doors opening at take off ... finally demanded "Get the show on the road"... (Transcript & Sluggo) 7:22 (19:22 PST) Cooper says; “Get the plane on the road”. (Transcript) 7:34 (19:33 PST) Flt 305 takes off (Transcpt) 7:41 NWA - Stewardess Mucklow allowed to go to cockpit. Stops & turns at curtain and watches Cooper now tying the bag around his waste. (Transcript) 7:42 NWA - HJ advised by inter-phone that he was having difficulty getting steps down. (Transcript) Note* There is nothing in the Transcripts about Mucklow seeing Cooper cut cord from any chute or a firm timeline for when he did that, between the long period from 5:47 - 7:41 when Muckow last saw Cooper. You did not get this from the Trascripts because it isn't there! You just made it up or you have another source ? Well, those transcripts are missing a vital steps in the process - the process in which the passengers where allowed to DEPLANE - Where is the conversation that took place between Tina and Cooper during this time frame? "We all have a little larcency in our hearts". Duane's ex used to say that all of the time - strange that was also the expression used by Clara the featured woman in Max Gunther's book! Also note the one song Duane did so well was "You'll Never Know" Would have been wonderful if there was Caller Id when Clara was calling Max - this case would have closed when Max revealed his conversations with Clara to the FBIQuote Thats was Blevin's remarks NOT MINE! Learn to reed. "Yeah...well... According to FBI transcripts, by the time that Mucklow delivered the last of the back chutes, the hijacker was already busy cutting cords and wrapping the bag. " Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ParrotheadVol 70 #41573 July 13, 2013 RobertMBlevins The Spokesman-Review published an article about ten days after the hijacking. Was the FBI already hitting the bricks at the DZ's? I say yes. See picture. Wow. That's an amazing likeness. I'd bet money though, that if we ever find out who Cooper was, none of those drawings are going be even close to accurate. Moot point though. I'd be shocked if this is ever solved."They were saying he was never gonna make it now, now that daylight had set in. But later that night, they were shining those lights back down on that mountain again." - Todd Snider Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ParrotheadVol 70 #41574 July 13, 2013 About Christiansen: 1. Why would he ask for "negotiable American currency"? 2. The Money At Tena Bar: If KC was Cooper, he obviously got away with and used the money. So losing the money and it washing up at Tena Bar isn't plausible. He was already spending the money fairly soon after the crime, so probably didn't still have 3 bundles to go and "plant" years later at Tena Bar. He may have still had money in accounts, investments or whatever. But still holding on to the original loot? I doubt it. The Tena Bar money, in my opinion, is a huge obsticle to anyone promoting Christiansen as Cooper. I too, am curious about the dummy chute. Probably not very important to the case, but one does wonder about its fate."They were saying he was never gonna make it now, now that daylight had set in. But later that night, they were shining those lights back down on that mountain again." - Todd Snider Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Robert99 37 #41575 July 13, 2013 RobertMBlevins******Well, yes...I have made some assumptions. But those assumptions are based on things the hijacker actually requested, or his actions, or things he said during the course of the hijacking. They are not 'wild speculations'. As I said, in the lack of other evidence, you have to look at what happened. Words from his mouth, his decisions, his actions, portions of the known evidence that can be verified. Sure, it's possible the hijacker somehow tied the non-working reserve to his chest. Maybe. It's just as possible he tossed it away for one of two reasons: In anger, or as a red herring for ground searches. If he actually stated he didn't WANT a military chute, or specifically a military chute from McChord, then why would he immediately choose the NB-6 as his jump vehicle? I think the reason he asked for multiple parachutes was to discourage the FBI from giving him ones that didn't work. Blevins, To answer your question, Cooper probably selected the NB-6 because he knew it didn't come from McChord, was packed by a civilian, etc. Robert99 Same thing can be said for the Pioneer. But he didn't choose that one. Look...what about this. We know Cooper got the front chutes first, and had a chance to inspect them while Tina was busy with bringing the others on board. Why did he choose to pop the one that worked? Was it guesswork, i.e. he assumes both work and by chance picks the one that will open to cut cords from it? Or...did he check both first, realize one was a no-go, and pop the one that did work? No one knows this. But...if he did discover one was a non-starter and he pops the other one anyway for the cord...then you can safely assume he wasn't planning on using a reserve. If he were, he would have NOT popped the working reserve. He would have waited for the back chutes to come aboard and then selected one of THOSE to cut cord from. When you look at his actions when the back chutes arrive, i.e. immediately selecting the NB-6 over the Pioneer and checking the card, it makes you believe he knew what he was doing. You've made some assumptions, too. For example, you say that it was common knowledge that Search and Rescue radio beacons were used in military chutes in 1971. But how do you know when the last time was the hijacker ever used a parachute? Did he say he didn't want chutes out of McChord because they might have radio beacons? I have not heard this. In addition, the FBI heavily investigated both local and non-local dropzones and came up empty. I think if Cooper was a regular at any civilian DZ, the FBI would have gotten a lead on him sooner or later. This was a major part of the investigation for years. And Cooper was allegedly in his mid-40's, with a sketch out there as famous as the Mona Lisa. This sounds more like a guy who hadn't jumped in a long time, and certainly was not a regular at any dropzone, otherwise someone would have remembered him. So assuming he knew of the radio beacons in 1971 is a BIG assumption, unless the hijacker said so specifically. One of the biggest problems with Cooper being a civilian jumper is quite simple. No one at any of the dropzones ever fingered a suspect who panned out. If he wasn't a civilian skydiver, then where did he learn how to use one? Blevins, Stop the bullshit! As has already been explained to you today as well as in previous posts, Cooper specifically did not want a parachute from McChord. He didn't say he didn't want a military parachute. In 1971, it was common knowledge that military parachutes were being equipped with radio beacons so that Search and Rescue aircraft could locate and recover the crewmen. It doesn't make any difference if Cooper had ever jumped before, all he had to do was read the newspapers to know about the radio beacons. Presumably, you are aware that there was a war going on in Southeast Asia in 1971. At least it was so reported on TV and in all the newspapers where I lived. As I have already told you several times today, if Cooper had any sky diving experience during the 1960s, it was probably with surplus military parachutes. But in reality, there is no particular evidence to prove that Cooper had ever jumped. I believe it was Ckret who pointed out that Cooper may have been a kicker or load master on military or OGO aircraft with only superficial knowledge of parachuting. So stop trying to make another KC story out of a trivial piece of information. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1658 1659 1660 1661 1662 1663 1664 1665 1666 1667 1668 Next Page 1663 of 2541 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 47 47 Go To Topic Listing
ParrotheadVol 70 #41573 July 13, 2013 RobertMBlevins The Spokesman-Review published an article about ten days after the hijacking. Was the FBI already hitting the bricks at the DZ's? I say yes. See picture. Wow. That's an amazing likeness. I'd bet money though, that if we ever find out who Cooper was, none of those drawings are going be even close to accurate. Moot point though. I'd be shocked if this is ever solved."They were saying he was never gonna make it now, now that daylight had set in. But later that night, they were shining those lights back down on that mountain again." - Todd Snider Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ParrotheadVol 70 #41574 July 13, 2013 About Christiansen: 1. Why would he ask for "negotiable American currency"? 2. The Money At Tena Bar: If KC was Cooper, he obviously got away with and used the money. So losing the money and it washing up at Tena Bar isn't plausible. He was already spending the money fairly soon after the crime, so probably didn't still have 3 bundles to go and "plant" years later at Tena Bar. He may have still had money in accounts, investments or whatever. But still holding on to the original loot? I doubt it. The Tena Bar money, in my opinion, is a huge obsticle to anyone promoting Christiansen as Cooper. I too, am curious about the dummy chute. Probably not very important to the case, but one does wonder about its fate."They were saying he was never gonna make it now, now that daylight had set in. But later that night, they were shining those lights back down on that mountain again." - Todd Snider Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Robert99 37 #41575 July 13, 2013 RobertMBlevins******Well, yes...I have made some assumptions. But those assumptions are based on things the hijacker actually requested, or his actions, or things he said during the course of the hijacking. They are not 'wild speculations'. As I said, in the lack of other evidence, you have to look at what happened. Words from his mouth, his decisions, his actions, portions of the known evidence that can be verified. Sure, it's possible the hijacker somehow tied the non-working reserve to his chest. Maybe. It's just as possible he tossed it away for one of two reasons: In anger, or as a red herring for ground searches. If he actually stated he didn't WANT a military chute, or specifically a military chute from McChord, then why would he immediately choose the NB-6 as his jump vehicle? I think the reason he asked for multiple parachutes was to discourage the FBI from giving him ones that didn't work. Blevins, To answer your question, Cooper probably selected the NB-6 because he knew it didn't come from McChord, was packed by a civilian, etc. Robert99 Same thing can be said for the Pioneer. But he didn't choose that one. Look...what about this. We know Cooper got the front chutes first, and had a chance to inspect them while Tina was busy with bringing the others on board. Why did he choose to pop the one that worked? Was it guesswork, i.e. he assumes both work and by chance picks the one that will open to cut cords from it? Or...did he check both first, realize one was a no-go, and pop the one that did work? No one knows this. But...if he did discover one was a non-starter and he pops the other one anyway for the cord...then you can safely assume he wasn't planning on using a reserve. If he were, he would have NOT popped the working reserve. He would have waited for the back chutes to come aboard and then selected one of THOSE to cut cord from. When you look at his actions when the back chutes arrive, i.e. immediately selecting the NB-6 over the Pioneer and checking the card, it makes you believe he knew what he was doing. You've made some assumptions, too. For example, you say that it was common knowledge that Search and Rescue radio beacons were used in military chutes in 1971. But how do you know when the last time was the hijacker ever used a parachute? Did he say he didn't want chutes out of McChord because they might have radio beacons? I have not heard this. In addition, the FBI heavily investigated both local and non-local dropzones and came up empty. I think if Cooper was a regular at any civilian DZ, the FBI would have gotten a lead on him sooner or later. This was a major part of the investigation for years. And Cooper was allegedly in his mid-40's, with a sketch out there as famous as the Mona Lisa. This sounds more like a guy who hadn't jumped in a long time, and certainly was not a regular at any dropzone, otherwise someone would have remembered him. So assuming he knew of the radio beacons in 1971 is a BIG assumption, unless the hijacker said so specifically. One of the biggest problems with Cooper being a civilian jumper is quite simple. No one at any of the dropzones ever fingered a suspect who panned out. If he wasn't a civilian skydiver, then where did he learn how to use one? Blevins, Stop the bullshit! As has already been explained to you today as well as in previous posts, Cooper specifically did not want a parachute from McChord. He didn't say he didn't want a military parachute. In 1971, it was common knowledge that military parachutes were being equipped with radio beacons so that Search and Rescue aircraft could locate and recover the crewmen. It doesn't make any difference if Cooper had ever jumped before, all he had to do was read the newspapers to know about the radio beacons. Presumably, you are aware that there was a war going on in Southeast Asia in 1971. At least it was so reported on TV and in all the newspapers where I lived. As I have already told you several times today, if Cooper had any sky diving experience during the 1960s, it was probably with surplus military parachutes. But in reality, there is no particular evidence to prove that Cooper had ever jumped. I believe it was Ckret who pointed out that Cooper may have been a kicker or load master on military or OGO aircraft with only superficial knowledge of parachuting. So stop trying to make another KC story out of a trivial piece of information. Robert99 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
